Did Paul consider himself a "sinner", are we supposed to think of ourselves as sinners...?

JIMINZ said:

.
I fully understand what it is you are saying, but everything you have used to back up your belief is, Assumption, Supposition on what you believe the Scriptures say.

Mar 16:15 ,16
15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The question is, if a Christian does in fact go into all the world Preaching the Gospel, and there are some who believe, and there were some who did not believe, can we automatically make the assumption, that the ones not believing did in fact make a choice to not believe, when they didn't believe in the first place?

They were just proceeding as they had before the Gospel was Preached, they weren't rejecting it, they weren't exerting their Free Will, they are Slaves to sin as you yourself have posted.

Rom 6:15-17
15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Click to expand...

Those who do not obey from the heart are making a choice. When you hear something that can be believed or disbelieved, whether it be that the US landed on the moon, or claims for Bigfoot, there is no neutral ground. Even holding the issue in suspension for further consideration is still a choice not to believe it. A "no decision" is still "no" decision.

Moreover, if sinners are damned for not believing the gospel but they cannot do so anyway due to their inherited Adamic nature, then they are effectively being damned and will be punished for something their father did, which Scripture repeatedly disallows, (Dt. 24:16; 2Ki 14:5,6; 2Ch 25:4; Jer 31:29,30; Eze 18:20) not merely realizing the effects in this life for the choices of others, as all creation does.(Rm. 8:20-22)

However, all culpable souls, who "know to refuse the evil, and choose the good," (Isaiah 7:16) even if never given the grace of hearing the gospel, are able to make moral choices, and reject light or obey it, with their judgment being based on what they are culpable for. "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." (Proverbs 1:24-26)

Thus Gentiles, which have not the law, do may by nature the things contained in the law, these, and are a law unto themselves: (Romans 2:14) and those in Romans 1 "knew God" as a basic revelation as Creator and with a basic moral sense, but choose not to glorify God and thus became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21)

God also reasoned with the first murdered how he could overcome sin, (Genesis 4:7)and the Lord wept over those of Jerusalem/Israel (Luke 19:41) and lamented on how they refused His will to save them. (Luke 13:34)

Even if souls never hear that Christ is the true Light, yet it is He "which lighteth every man that cometh into the world, (John 1:9) and to reject the light that one has is in essence rejecting Christ. Those the damned will be judged based upon the light they had, and the level grace given, even if they never heard of Christ. And thus those blessed with the most light and grace are the most accountable.

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. (Matthew 11:23-24)

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:25-29)

The Scripture says. Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Therefore the only assumption which can be made about the slave of sin not believing when the Gospel has been preached to him is, God' Grace was not ministered unto him in order that he could believe.

Click to expand...

But as said, such a soul is only accountable forwhat he choose to do relative to the light and grace given.

Believing isn't the process of exerting our Free Will, it is the process of God opening our ears to the truth of the Gospel by His Grace.

Click to expand...

It is true that man could not and would not believe on the Lord Jesus or follow Him unless God gave him life, and breath, and all good things he has, (Acts 17:25) and convicted him, (Jn. 16:8) drew him, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32) opened his heart, (Acts 16:14) and granted repentance (Acts 11:18) and gave faith, (Eph. 2:8,9) and then worked in him both to will and to do of His good pleasure the works He commands them to do. (Phil. 2:13; Eph. 2:10)
Thus man owes to God all things, and while he is guilty and rightly damned for resisting God contrary to the level of grace given him (Prov. 1:20-31; Lk. 10:13; 12:48; Rv. 20:11-15) - which is the only thing man alone really has merited on his own - man can not claim he himself actually earned anything, except that under grace — which denotes unmerited favor — God has chosen to reward faith, (Heb. 10:35) in recognition of its effects, which God both enabled and motivated man to do.
And which means that God justifies man without the merit of any works, which is what Romans 4:1-7ff teaches, with “works of the law” including all systems of justification by merit of works, “for, if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21)

However, man is not converted while being comatose, nor are the lost are making a choice to disbelieve the gospel when they hear it. They are choosing not to believe, and rather than the lost having no ability to make moral choices, or only the elect (who were ordained to eternal life) being given grace to believe, Scripture treats the lost as souls who are able to repent and believe the gospel (if given the grace of hearing the understanding it) and accountable for rejecting it.

Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. (Acts 13:46)

We are either a slave to sin (Our Old Man) or we are the slave of Righteousness (The New Man).

Click to expand...

Yes, but as believers are to live practically what they are positionally, thus Paul does not say you will never sin, but exhorts us,

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (Romans 6:12-13)

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. (Romans 6:19)

You cannot use the statements on what believers are positionally in Christ, such as, "our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin;" (Romans 6:6-7)," (Romans 6:7)"made free from sin, and become servants to God," (Romans 6:22) "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God;" (Colossians 3:3) "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him;" (Colossians 3:10) "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus," (Ephesians 2:6) "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; (Philippians 3:20)

And make this to be the practical definition of what constitutes a believer, versus being what he strives for, to live out what he is in Christ, "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God;" (Romans 6:11-13) "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;" (Philippians 3:10) "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before;" (Philippians 3:13) "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry;" (Colossians 3:5) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; (Colossians 3:12)

Eph. 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Click to expand...

Indeed, but which does not mean believers always will act accordingly, but that they are to, with Paul appealing to what the believer is in Christ in exhorting believers to live that out, as the next verse does,
"Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another." (Ephesians 4:25)
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice." (Ephesians 4:30-31)

If believers always lived out what they are in Christ then they would not be exhorted to do so.

Either way, we did not exert our Free Will to be either one, we were born into sin with a sinful Nature, and we are Born again unto the Spirit by the Grace of God.

Click to expand...

Rather, as showed, we are not born again in our sleep, but by the grace of God are drawn of God, have our hearts opened, and are convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment, and granted repentance and given faith. Believing unto righteousness in our hearts on the risen Lord Jesus, and calling upon Him to save us out of salvific faith, (Romans 10:8-13) making a volitional choice by God's grace, "obeying from the heart" (Romans 6:17) the regenerating gospel of salvation. (Acts 10:434-47; 15:6-9)

Which choice itself is not meritorious of salvation, not "works of righteousness which we have done," but are saved according to his mercy, "by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost," (Titus 3:5) with God purifying the heart by faith, (Acts 15:9) which is counted/imputed for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

JacksBratt said:

Well, I agree that we disagree and that is a mature attitude for us both to accept.

However, sin is not a "mistake". Mistakes are writing down a 7 instead of a 9 or miscalculating a sum or product of numbers... calling someone Joe instead of their real name.. say Ted...

Sin is none of these and none of these are sins.

Sin can be defined as: "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law."

I understand that some here believe that, after they accept Christ, they will never sin. Others believe as I do, that it is impossible for me to do so.


These people have their belief set and it is unlikely that it will change.

All I know is that I am a true Christian and child of God and I am not ashamed to say that I continually need to ask forgiveness for the sins I have committed and will continue, against my desires, on purpose or accidentally...not for renewal of my salvation but for renewal of my connection and fellowship with Christ.

Let me ask you, and those that believe like you:

Do you never ask for forgiveness anymore.. since your salvation?

Click to expand...

You’re confused about my position. 1. You seemed to be equilivicating sin and a mistake so I was saying that they aren’t the same thing so we agree there. 2. Whether you’re a Christian or not has nothing to do with this discussion. 3. My belief is one that’s in the middle and one held by most in my faith. You have one of the two extreme views... either you cannot sin again after being saved is one... and yours the other one is you can’t help but sin. Mine is this, that you may sin after being saved but as John 2:1 for example indicates you don’t have to sin and as 1 John 3:9 indicates if you address that sin you don’t have to continuously commit it.

Ken Rank said:

You misunderstood or I said it wrong... you said you "willfully sin" which means, as I understand those two words, means you KNOW what God wants and you purposefully chose another path instead. That is "willful sin" (deliberate sin) and that, by definition, is rebellion.

I sin, we all sin... for anyone to say they don't they lie or are ignorant of Scripture. But there is a difference between aiming at the mark and missing (the intent is still to hit the mark) or knowing the mark we are supposed to aim at and deliberately going after another target. The latter is rebellion and I was just hoping that wasn't the case with you.

Click to expand...

May I ask a question then to clarify willful sin in your eyes?

If I knowingly tell my boss I am sick to get out of work say for the birth of my grandchild because they wouldn’t let me off that is willful sin in your definition? Correct?

Or if someone looks at someone they find attractive but are married and then sneak another look at that person after the first, that is what you are talking about?

Or any person that would say look at inappropriate content knowing they would lust after whomever was in the video because they only hire very attractive people, that is willful sin? Correct

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

You’re confused about my position. 1. You seemed to be equilivicating sin and a mistake so I was saying that they aren’t the same thing so we agree there. 2. Whether you’re a Christian or not has nothing to do with this discussion. 3. My belief is one that’s in the middle and one held by most in my faith. You have one of the two extreme views... either you cannot sin again after being saved is one... and yours the other one is you can’t help but sin. Mine is this, that you may sin after being saved but as John 2:1 for example indicates you don’t have to sin and as 1 John 3:9 indicates if you address that sin you don’t have to continuously commit it.

Click to expand...

(The following I have used "you" and "your", these are intended generally, not specifically targeting the poster above--but intended for anyone reading to reflect on--myself included)

It seems monumentally important that we define what "sin" is. I think many are of the position that "sin" describes a limited set of particular sinful actions--lying, lusting, murder, etc--and thus sure, the Christian can of course avoid actively and consciously doing certain sins. Obviously there is no reason I have to tell a lie, and obviously there's no reason I have to kill someone.

But I think that is a deep failure to understand sin and just how pernicious and awful it is. St. Paul goes so far as to say, "All that is not of faith is sin", the Prophet Jeremiah wrote that "the heart is deceitful above all else, and desperately sick". Christ teaches us that to even be angry at our brother is as murder.

The Great Commandment Christ gives us is "Love the Lord your God with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. And love your neighbor as yourself." And that means we should really pause and ask ourselves, "Am I really loving God with all my soul, mind, and strength? Am I really loving my neighbor as myself?" It's not simply in what we have done, but what about what we have left undone? How many opportunities face us in the course of a day in which we might have the chance to love someone? If you live in a city, how many hungry and homeless people did you drive by on your way to work this morning--without even so much as noticing them? How often do you maybe bite your tongue when you are provoked to anger, but still think evil thoughts against your neighbor?

How many little things happen over the course of your waking hours in which you have failed to live according to this Commandment? Not just intentionally done or undone, but thought, felt, or even were not even consciously aware of? How many times have we sinned against God and neighbor without even being aware of it? Because sin isn't simply a list of bad things to be avoided, sin is the very reality of our fallen humanity which we bear in our soul and our very bones which, if we take seriously the Law and Righteousness of God we cannot help but admit that we are indeed grave and wretched sinners--indeed, to confess that we are the chief of sinners.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

(The following I have used "you" and "your", these are intended generally, not specifically targeting the poster above--but intended for anyone reading to reflect on--myself included)

It seems monumentally important that we define what "sin" is. I think many are of the position that "sin" describes a limited set of particular sinful actions--lying, lusting, murder, etc--and thus sure, the Christian can of course avoid actively and consciously doing certain sins. Obviously there is no reason I have to tell a lie, and obviously there's no reason I have to kill someone.

But I think that is a deep failure to understand sin and just how pernicious and awful it is. St. Paul goes so far as to say, "All that is not of faith is sin", the Prophet Jeremiah wrote that "the heart is deceitful above all else, and desperately sick". Christ teaches us that to even be angry at our brother is as murder.

The Great Commandment Christ gives us is "Love the Lord your God with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. And love your neighbor as yourself." And that means we should really pause and ask ourselves, "Am I really loving God with all my soul, mind, and strength? Am I really loving my neighbor as myself?" It's not simply in what we have done, but what about what we have left undone? How many opportunities face us in the course of a day in which we might have the chance to love someone? If you live in a city, how many hungry and homeless people did you drive by on your way to work this morning--without even so much as noticing them? How often do you maybe bite your tongue when you are provoked to anger, but still think evil thoughts against your neighbor?

How many little things happen over the course of your waking hours in which you have failed to live according to this Commandment? Not just intentionally done or undone, but thought, felt, or even were not even consciously aware of? How many times have we sinned against God and neighbor without even being aware of it? Because sin isn't simply a list of bad things to be avoided, sin is the very reality of our fallen humanity which we bear in our soul and our very bones which, if we take seriously the Law and Righteousness of God we cannot help but admit that we are indeed grave and wretched sinners--indeed, to confess that we are the chief of sinners.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

There’s a difference between sinning and falling short before the glory of the lord. Not loving a neighbor as much as you can or contributing as much here or there would be falling short

ViaCrucis said:

(The following I have used "you" and "your", these are intended generally, not specifically targeting the poster above--but intended for anyone reading to reflect on--myself included)

It seems monumentally important that we define what "sin" is. I think many are of the position that "sin" describes a limited set of particular sinful actions--lying, lusting, murder, etc--and thus sure, the Christian can of course avoid actively and consciously doing certain sins. Obviously there is no reason I have to tell a lie, and obviously there's no reason I have to kill someone.

But I think that is a deep failure to understand sin and just how pernicious and awful it is. St. Paul goes so far as to say, "All that is not of faith is sin", the Prophet Jeremiah wrote that "the heart is deceitful above all else, and desperately sick". Christ teaches us that to even be angry at our brother is as murder.

The Great Commandment Christ gives us is "Love the Lord your God with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. And love your neighbor as yourself." And that means we should really pause and ask ourselves, "Am I really loving God with all my soul, mind, and strength? Am I really loving my neighbor as myself?" It's not simply in what we have done, but what about what we have left undone? How many opportunities face us in the course of a day in which we might have the chance to love someone? If you live in a city, how many hungry and homeless people did you drive by on your way to work this morning--without even so much as noticing them? How often do you maybe bite your tongue when you are provoked to anger, but still think evil thoughts against your neighbor?

How many little things happen over the course of your waking hours in which you have failed to live according to this Commandment? Not just intentionally done or undone, but thought, felt, or even were not even consciously aware of? How many times have we sinned against God and neighbor without even being aware of it? Because sin isn't simply a list of bad things to be avoided, sin is the very reality of our fallen humanity which we bear in our soul and our very bones which, if we take seriously the Law and Righteousness of God we cannot help but admit that we are indeed grave and wretched sinners--indeed, to confess that we are the chief of sinners.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

I agree in regards to thinking I’ll will towards someone like they should die or something being a sin... so a man thinketh so is he. The bible also lets us know that just thinking on a woman a certain way is adultery (hence why inappropriate contentogrophy is so deadily).

SBC said:

First of all, you ARE in rebellion. Your rebellion is not trusting Gods Word.

The Word of God teaches; IF you are forgiven, saved and born again - YOU CAN NOT SIN.

Your word, says YOU CAN SIN.

That IS rebellion, of believing your word OVER Gods Word.

YOU do that, BECAUSE, you read Scripture, of this, and that, which is called SIN.
YOU, read it and say, oh, oh, oh, "I do that".
So then YOU speak YOUR words, testifying, YOU "commit" Sin.

What you fail to understand IS;
All of those things you read in Scripture, called Sin, ARE Sin....

UNTIL, you are born of God.

A man NOT born of God....lies, gives presents, gets drunk, helps others, deceives, is kind to others, beats his family, works diligently, is mean to animals, treats animals with good care, provides necessities for his family, does not provide necessities for his family,
is helpful to a stranger, hates a stranger.

What you do not comprehend IS such a man; NOT BORN OF GOD;
1) IS NOT Forgiven "for" what "he", calls "not good behavior".
2) The man IS ALSO NOT forgiven "for" what "he", calls "good behavior".

Because NOTHING WHATSOEVER, so called, "good" or "bad", was done to GLORIFY God.

NOW - a man who IS, born of God, IS forgiven of ALL sin Against God.
NOW - a man who IS, born of God, CAN SIN NO MORE.
NOW - a man who IS, born of God -
1) all that he does "bad behavior", is NOT accounted as SIN, it is accounted as
FORGIVEN SIN.

Get the TRUTH in your thoughts - SIN is AGAINST GOD - FORGIVEN SIN is NOT AGAINST GOD.

2) all that he does "good behavior", is DONE, to Glorify God.

A man BORN OF GOD, can NOT commit, what IS Already Forgiven!!!

A man BORN of GOD, has Gods Spirit within Him. Gods Spirit dwells WITH forgiven "sinful" men, NOT with men who continue to SIN.

God has Forgiven all of your sin, Covered all of your sin, Forgotten all of your sin.
If you strive to be like minded, as Christ....
Why do you allow your minds thoughts, and your mouth to SPEAK against Gods Word?

Your job, is to listen to your Heart's thoughts, His Spirits TRUTH, His Word, in your heart.

Your job, is to stop listening to your minds thoughts, and MAKE your own mind, listen to your Heart, where the Spirit of Truth of God, is telling YOU, you are forgiven, you sin no more, His Power is KEEPING you in FORGIVEN SIN, Keeping you, WHOLE, wholly, body, soul, and spirit, IN FaithFULLNES, to Him only.

If you are WILL-FULLY, committing FORGIVEN sin, It is FORGIVEN...and guess what?
YOU are the one, who has to contend with "feeling bad".
That is your cue; you have been allowing your MINDS THOUGHTS to trump your Hearts thoughts.
That is your cue; get on the ball, take control over your Minds thoughts, which is simply a matter, of YOU, saying to your own MIND, whoa, wait a minute, "I need to consult with my hearts thoughts, with what God is feeding my spirit". Whoa, I need to DO whatever it is I want to do, that IT GLORIFIES GOD!

Rom 12
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

THAT is "your job". God didn't give you a NEW MIND. He gave you a NEW HEART. His Spirit dwells within your New Heart, feeding you, His Truth, with His Power, with His Wisdom, with His Understanding.....not "yours".

It is "your job", to make, your MIND, conform and be transformed....
"BY" what He gives you in your heart.

Practice it, and you WILL FIND, your mind, becoming subdued, relenting, conforming, transforming, to the Will of God.

THEN, shall you be able to say, you have a mind, LIKE Christ!

Until then, IF you proceed, with listening to your minds thoughts, and words, saying, YOU Continue to sin, you are in rebellion of trusting Gods Word, and that IS NOT the Will of God.

Think, comprehend, and allow your hearts thoughts to supersede your minds thoughts, and your mouth's testifying Against Gods Word.

Because;

Rom 8 [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:

God Bless,
SBC

Click to expand...

So, you say all this to basically say:

Guy #1 is not saved.
Guy #2 is saved.

Guy #1 does some action that is considered sin.
Guy #2 does the same action.

Guy #1 is sinning because he is not "Born of God"
Guy #2 is not sinning because he is "Born of God"..


Have I got this right?

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

There’s a difference between sinning and falling short before the glory of the lord. Not loving a neighbor as much as you can or contributing as much here or there would be falling short

Click to expand...

Oh boy.

There is no difference. Sin is not doing everything perfectly as Christ did. Sin is missed or abandoned opportunity.

Jesus SAID LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

Now, if you would feed yourself when hungy, but do not feed the neighbor or homeless man, you treat yourself better than every hungry person you pass every single day.

What did Jesus say, EVERYTHING you do for the least of these you have done for ME.

I think Jesus knew what EVERYTHING is.

What else does Jesus say? Care for widows and orphans. Care for those who have no protector, no family, no one to help them. Who are fending for themselves and have nothing.

JacksBratt said:

Have I not said this enough, already?

Yes, I willfully sin from time to time and I also sin in other, what do you call them? Unwillful sins?

I am a Christian but I am not too proud to admit that I fall short.

This is why I am continually, in my normal prayer life, presenting these shortcomings to my savior and asking for forgiveness.

For pete's sake.... do RC's not go to "confession" regularly for their entire life?

At least you did admit "when, I may sin". That is encouraging to hear.....

Click to expand...

Sorry if I offended you. I don't read every post even in a thread I'm watching. So if you've answered before, good for you. BTW, I'm not Catholic.

Ken Rank said:

What you just said here is in agreement with what I have been saying to you for 5 posts. This is a little frustrating but it must be me who was not communicating well. You admit here that you "could" sin and if you do that either God will convict you or (and I am adding this) your own understanding of God's will through the Word will also convict you... and then you will turn away and learn from the mistake, doing your best not to repeat it. That is all I have ever said to you on this. Paul speaking in the present tense is an acknowledgment of what you just said here.

Click to expand...

LOL, hope you can rest now about me. But I still think Paul was being misunderstood.

ToBeLoved said:

Oh boy.

There is no difference. Sin is not doing everything perfectly as Christ did. Sin is missed or abandoned opportunity.

Jesus SAID LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

Now, if you would feed yourself when hungy, but do not feed the neighbor or homeless man, you treat yourself better than every hungry person you pass every single day.

What did Jesus say, EVERYTHING you do for the least of these you have done for ME.

I think Jesus knew what EVERYTHING is.

What else does Jesus say? Care for widows and orphans. Care for those who have no protector, no family, no one to help them. Who are fending for themselves and have nothing.

Click to expand...

In the words of you... “oh boy” Sin is just missing the mark of rightoueness essentially or doing things against Christ. It’s not simply missing an opportunity that’s ludicrous. “The wages of a missed opportunity is death”. “All who miss opportunities have their place in the lake of fire.” That’s just come on now Also you didn’t understand my response and I can’t blame you I didn’t word it well. I said love your neighbor as much or give to the poor as much. What I met to say was do as much as you can for a nerighbor or give as much as you could that day to the poor. Loving anneighbor or other souls as yourself is easy enough espsicully if you’re a preacher or pastor, but sometimes you give to a homeless man on one street and not one on the other, that’s simply falling short or doing less then you could have that’s not sinning. You still love and care for the person you didn’t give to you just didn’t feel led to, or don’t have the money to donate finances to every individual. I’m sure the wages for that are not death as with fornication, adultery, not loving or even caring for others/neighbors, homosexuality etc

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

In the words of you... “oh boy” Sin is just missing the mark of rightoueness essentially or doing things against Christ. It’s not simply missing an opportunity that’s ludicrous. Also you didn’t understand my response and I can’t blame you I didn’t word it well. I said love your neighbor as much or give to the poor as much. What I met to say was do as much as you can for a nerighbor or give as much as you could that day to the poor. Loving anneighbor or other souls as yourself is easy enough espsicully if you’re a preacher or pastor, but sometimes you give to a homeless man on one street and not one on the other, that’s simply falling short or doing less then you could have that’s not sinning. You still love and care for the person you didn’t give to you just didn’t feel led to, or don’t have the money to donate finances to every individual. I’m sure the wages for that are not death as with fornication, adultery, not loving or even caring for others/neighbors, homosexuality etc

Click to expand...

You can’t change Christ’s words.

You are changing the subject now to homosexuality and adultery?

No no. Let’s talk sin. Our sin. Not anyone else’s.

When you feed yourself and not others. Is that loving your neighbor as yourself.

Let’s use Christ’s standards.

ToBeLoved said:

You can’t change Christ’s words.

You are changing the subject now to homosexuality and adultery?

No no. Let’s talk sin. Our sin. Not anyone else’s.

When you feed yourself and not others. Is that living your neighbor as yourself.

Click to expand...

I’m not changing Christ words. Homosexuality and adultery are sins are they not? And if so how are those comparable to short comings or missed opportunities? Lastly you didn’t read my scenario I guess, you give money to a homeless man ... (which anyone with common sense recognizes can be utilized by that man to buy himself food) to one person but not to another you see the same day for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. Does that mean you don’t love your neighbors? Or you simply were in a hurry, maybe didn’t see him, didn’t have anymore money to spare, or just didn’t feel led to give to him? If I don’t donate my finances to every offering or every relief effort or every man I see does that really mean I don’t love all my neighbors?

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

In the words of you... “oh boy” Sin is just missing the mark of rightoueness essentially or doing things against Christ. It’s not simply missing an opportunity that’s ludicrous. “The wages of a missed opportunity is death”. “All who miss opportunities have their place in the lake of fire.” That’s just come on now Also you didn’t understand my response and I can’t blame you I didn’t word it well. I said love your neighbor as much or give to the poor as much. What I met to say was do as much as you can for a nerighbor or give as much as you could that day to the poor. Loving anneighbor or other souls as yourself is easy enough espsicully if you’re a preacher or pastor, but sometimes you give to a homeless man on one street and not one on the other, that’s simply falling short or doing less then you could have that’s not sinning. You still love and care for the person you didn’t give to you just didn’t feel led to, or don’t have the money to donate finances to every individual. I’m sure the wages for that are not death as with fornication, adultery, not loving or even caring for others/neighbors, homosexuality etc

Click to expand...

When the rich man that wanted to follow Christ, when Christ said ‘ALL’ you mean Christ meant ‘SOME’?

The standard of holiness is not some. Holiness is all.

Why did Christ let the rich man go then?

1stcenturylady said:

I will let God convict me if, and when, I may sin. And then I most certainly would turn away from that sin. It is not up to me to say I am sinless. God can examine my life and convict me.

Click to expand...

And sin is not simply wrong actions but start as sinful thoughts of the heart, from resentment, envy to evil imaginations, and also include sins of omission. for me, failing to offer a gospel tract to souls headed to Hell can be a sin, as well as a lack of prayer and thankfulness to God. Or singing hymns to God in which I profess things that are not always true for me. George Washington even feared his prayers could be sin, which they can be.

I think Christians who say they do not commit sin typically have a quite passive conscience or a dim light as to what sin is, or faults are.

Traits of the Self-Life (Scripture refs added)
The following are some of the features and manifestations of the self-life. The Spirit alone can interpret and apply this to your individual case. As you read, examine yourself as if in the immediate presence of God. Are you ever conscious of:

• A secret spirit of pride, an exalted feeling, in view of your success or position; (Daniel 4:30) because of your good training and appearance; because of your natural gifts and abilities. An important, independent spirit. (1Sam. 2:3; Prov. 16:16; Mk. 14:29-31) Stiffness and preciseness? (Mt. 23:34)
• Love of human praise; a secret fondness to be noticed; love of supremacy; (Mt. 6:5) drawing attention to self in conversation; a swelling out of self when you have had a free time in speaking or praying? (Lk. 22:24; Acts 8:9-24; 3Jn 1:9)
• The stirrings of anger or impatience, which, worst of all, you call nervousness or holy indignation; a touchy, sensitive spirit; a disposition to resent and retaliate when reproved or contradicted; a desire to throw sharp, heated flings at another? (1Sam. 8:7-11; Prov. 18:1
• Self-will; a stubborn unteachable spirit; (Prov. 29:1; 2Chrn. 36:16; Jer. 44:16-19) an arguing, talkative spirit; (Prov. 21:19; 26:2; Rm. 2:8) harsh, sarcastic expressions; (Ps. 94:4; Col. 4:6) and unyielding, headstrong disposition; (2Chrn. 10:10) a driving, commanding spirit; a disposition to criticize and pick flaws when set aside and unnoticed; a peevish, fretful spirit; a disposition that loves to [or must] be coaxed and humoured? (1Sam. 18:8; 20:29-34)
• Carnal fear; a man-fearing spirit; (Mt. 10:28; Rv. 21:8) a shrinking from reproach and duty; (Heb. 10:38,39) reasoning around your cross; (Lk. 14:33) a shrinking from doing your whole duty by those of wealth or position; a fearfulness that someone will get out of the spirit and thus offend and drive some prominent person away; a compromising spirit?(James 2:1-4; Gal. 2:11-13)
• A resentful jealous disposition; a secret spirit of envy shut up in your heart; an unpleasant sensation in view of the great prosperity and success of another; (1 Samuel 18:6-9) a disposition to speak of the faults and failings, rather than the gifts and virtues of those more talented and appreciated than yourself? (2 Samuel 16:5-8; Ps. 109:17,18)
• Lustful stirrings; unholy actions; undue inclinations and unholy familiarity towards those of the opposite sex; wandering eyes? (Prov. 6:25; Colossians 3:5)
• A dishonest, deceitful disposition; the evading and covering of the truth; the covering up of your real faults; (Prov. 12:20; 26:26; 28:13) the leaving of a better impression of yourself than is strictly true; false humility; exaggeration; straining the truth?(Mt. 7:15; Lk. 11:39)
• Unbelief; a spirit of discouragement in times of pressure and opposition; lack of quietness and confidence in God; lack of faith and trust in God; (Heb. 3:12) a disposition to worry and complain in the midst of pain, poverty, or at the dispensations of Divine Providence; (Job 31) an over-anxious feeling whether everything will come out all right? (Job 3)
• Formality and deadness; lack of concern for lost souls; dryness and indifference; lack of power with God? (Rv. 3:17)

• Selfishness; love of ease; love of money? (Ezek. 16:49)

What about you? What's your story? Do you willfully sin, or are you an overcomer?

Click to expand...

A false dilemma. One can sin out of weakness, not full consent of the will which is rebellion, and can be that of "departing from the living God" aginst which believers are warned. (Heb. 3:12; 10:25-39) Thus David the psalmist prayed, Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. (Psalms 19:13)

And thus David could profess,
For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God. (2 Samuel 22:22)

In contrast are sins we do not want to commit in our heart of hearts, though our flesh does, and thus the exhortation,

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Hebrews 12:1)

My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. (James 3:1-2)

There were church-going Corinthians who were carnal in the sense of being immature as manifested, "For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" (1 Corinthians 3:3)

Then there were those who were to be put out of the church by them:

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? (1 Corinthians 5:11-12)

For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. (2 Corinthians 12:20-21)

ToBeLoved said:

When the rich man that wanted to follow Christ, when Christ said ‘ALL’ you mean Christ meant ‘SOME’?

The standard of holiness is not some. Holiness is all.

Why did Christ let the rich man go then?

Click to expand...

Nice try but the focus of the parable wasn’t a lesson on donating all your financials to other individuals and placing yourself in a position to where you can’t procide much for your family. The focus wasn’t the money itself, the focus was the love of money which is the root of all evil. The focus was holiness not charity that if you hold on to just one sin you’re not willing to give up you’re done. Christ said to sale all you have and follow me... not give all you have for free. Sale what you have and then give to the poor and then follow me. The focus is how to follow him and that if you love something so much to where you couldn’t give it up if he asked yeah. It’s not saying God wants everyone to sale all their posistions lol just have the willingness to give up someone or something if it comes to that for Christ. If you can’t gice up something for God then yeah

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

I’m not changing Christ words. Homosexuality and adultery are sins are they not? And if so how are those comparable to short comings or missed opportunities? Lastly you didn’t read my scenario I guess, you give money to a homeless man ... (which anyone with common sense recognizes can be utilized by that man to buy himself food) to one person but not to another you see the same day for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. Does that mean you don’t love your neighbors? Or you simply were in a hurry, maybe didn’t see him, didn’t have anymore money to spare, or just didn’t feel led to give to him? If I don’t donate my finances to every offering or every relief effort or every man I see does that really mean I don’t love all my neighbors?

Click to expand...

You or I or most in this thread are not going to have a homosexual relationship or commit adultery.

How easy it is to choose a
Sin you may not commit. Is that to deflect from the sins we each commit everyday? Seems convenient.

Christ is not a convenient God, nor has His standard ever been particularly convenient.

So I’ll ask again. Do you feed yourself, yet let others in your sight go hungry every single day?

ToBeLoved said:

When the rich man that wanted to follow Christ, when Christ said ‘ALL’ you mean Christ meant ‘SOME’?

The standard of holiness is not some. Holiness is all.

Why did Christ let the rich man go then?

Click to expand...

Sure you can argue the main lesson was about having the will to give all for Christ and that one of the secondary lessons was to give and show charity to others... but clearly the focus is that just not willing to give one thing... or get rid of one issue or thing or whatever for Christ can and will hold you back.

ToBeLoved said:

How can a person who doesn’t sin need the Holy Spirits conviction after sin?

Is she talking hypothetically what she has seen others go through? And how does she know what conviction from the Holy Spirit is even like?

Click to expand...

He can't answer for me, but I will. Once a long time ago, my girlfriend and I went shopping and I found a long vest and then a dress made out of the same material and they looked good together. When we got to the register, I noticed the girl only rang up one, thinking they were a set. We left. I couldn't rest. I told my girlfriend we had to go back. Even though she claimed to be a Spirit-filled Christian too, she thought I was crazy, so drove us home. The next day I went back to the store and hung the vest back up, which wasn't on the receipt. And peace fell over me again. I learned from that, and now I watch to make sure everything is accounted for. I don't want to go through that again!

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

Nice try but the focus of the parable wasn’t a lesson on donating all your financials to other individuals and placing yourself in a position to where you can’t procide much for your family. The focus wasn’t the money itself, the focus was the love of money which is the root of all evil. The focus was holiness not charity that if you hold on to just one sin you’re not willing to give up you’re done. Christ said to sale all you have and follow me... not give all you have for free. Sale what you have and then give to the poor and then follow me. The focus is how to follow him and that if you love something so much to where you couldn’t give it up if he asked yeah. It’s not saying God wants everyone to sale all their posistions lol just have the willingness to give up someone or something if it comes to that for Christ. If you can’t gice up something for God then yeah

Click to expand...

No. The focus was that Jesus demanded all. Jesus standard is high and where does it say the rich man had anyone else he needed to provide for?

Did any of Jesus apostles starve or run naked?

What did the rich man keep that he had to have?