Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

keras

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I've been associated in one way or another with Pentecostals all of my life.

You seem to be the only one who apparently doesn't believe by faith (along with me) that he is even now seated with Christ in Heaven. taking the authority given to him, and ruling the Kingdom by force - all things having been placed under the feet of Christ in whom we now have our own identity as His body on earth.
I'm a Pentecostal Christian believer. Do you have angel wings? Maybe only American Pente's get them?
Who is the ruler of the earth now? Satan of course. Matthew 4:8-9, 1 Peter 5:8
Those really big Tribulation Tsunamis will suck. No doubt about.:)
The tsunamis will come at the Sixth Seal, as the earth is shaken like a watchmans hut. Isaiah 13:13
They will destroy every coastal town and city worldwide. NY, LA, London, Tokyo and Auckland. Amos 9:6b
 
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Marvin Knox

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Do you have angel wings? Maybe only American Pente's get them?
No I don't have wings and even if I did they wouldn't be angel wings. They would be human wings.
Who is the ruler of the earth now?
Take a look around in your spirit. God isn't going to force you to understand and exercise your position in Him. You have to do it by faith.

"I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." Ephesians 1:18-22
The tsunamis will come at the Sixth Seal, as the earth is shaken like a watchmans hut. Isaiah 13:13
They will destroy every coastal town and city worldwide. NY, LA, London, Tokyo and Auckland. Amos 9:6b
I'm glad I won't be here to experience it. I believe that I will be going up in the rapture before it happens. You go ahead and believe what you wish about believers undergoing the wrath of God.
 
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redleghunter

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They claimed God would end the "Age of Grace" and would go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system during the 7 year period before the Second Coming of Christ.
Yes some do. However this is a fringe view.

For Dispensationalists like Walvoord it's always grace in every epoch or dispensation. Even fiction nonfiction writer Tim Lahaye does not subscribe to the old covenant theory.

They go by the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30) as the GT focus on the reconciliation of Israel with her Messiah Jesus.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Yes some do. However this is a fringe view. For Dispensationalists like Walvoord it's always grace in every epoch or dispensation. Even fiction nonfiction writer Tim Lahaye does not subscribe to the old covenant theory. They go by the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30) as the GT focus on the reconciliation of Israel with her Messiah Jesus.
I really appreciate the fact that you have been pretty consistently "on my side" in these and other issues.

But I'm going to go out on a real limb here and take a chance on experiencing a great deal of criticism by you and others for the following consideration.

Please don't take the following as any kind of dogmatic statement of what I know will happen in the millennium.

But I personally have not trouble with the idea that God might institute a return to the sacrifice of innocent animals in the millennial period along with a literal reign as the King of Israel.

Those sacrifices would look back of course to the finished work of Christ in history and not look forward or in any way "take the place of" or negate His historical work at Calvary.

But the old "system" of animal sacrifices, priests, and ruling kings like David etc. looked "forward" to the work in history which Christ accomplished. No one was "saved" by those sacrifices. They are only "saved" by the fulfillment of them in history. Those partaking in that system were showing faith in what was to come and it was credited to them as righteousness. What came eventually is what saved them and everyone who is saved before or since.

Likewise no one will be "saved" by the millennial temple sacrifices and the temple priests etc. under an exalted and ruling nation of Israel system of worship. They will not be saved by those coming activities but rather they will look "back" to the actual accomplishment of Christ at Calvary.

IMO - it is perfectly logical that God should fulfill His promises to the earthly nation of Israel in the millennial period. I.e. - He will reign and rule on the throne of David from an earthly Jerusalem for a thousand years in fulfillment of all of His promises to Israel in the O.T.

He will also rule from the "New Jerusalem" for eternity on the "new earth" in fulfillment of the fact that the church is "Jerusalem and Israel" and the habitation of God in the eternal realm.

I could take more time and spell it all out more clearly. But I won't do so here.

Everyone can fill in the blanks if they want to.

Suffice it to say that even the strongest kind of future "dispensationalism" in no way negates the finished work of Christ in history at Calvary IMO. It no more does that than did the O.T. system.

We'll see how God sees these things in time I suppose.

I'm willing to play ball with Him no matter what rules He sets us up with.:)
 
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Marilyn C

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But I personally have not trouble with the idea that God might institute a return to the sacrifice of innocent animals in the millennial period along with a literal reign as the King of Israel.

Those sacrifices would look back of course to the finished work of Christ in history and not look forward or in any way "take the place of" or negate His historical work at Calvary.

But the old "system" of animal sacrifices, priests, and ruling kings like David etc. looked "forward" to the work in history which Christ accomplished. No one was "saved" by those sacrifices. They are only "saved" by the fulfillment of them in history. Those partaking in that system were showing faith in what was to come and it was credited to them as righteousness. What came eventually is what saved them and everyone who is saved before or since.

Likewise no one will be "saved" by the millennial temple sacrifices and the temple priests etc. under an exalted and ruling nation of Israel system of worship. They will not be saved by those coming activities but rather they will look "back" to the actual accomplishment of Christ at Calvary.
:)

Hi Marvin,

I see you point. Now had you thought that the people of the nations that go into the Millennium are those who need to learn of God`s ways.

`Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths."

For out of Zion the law shall go forth and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.` (Micah 4: 1 & 2)

People in the millennium will need to learn of God`s ways. If not there will be immediate consequences. (Zech. 14: 16 - 19, no rain, plague etc) Thus the need for animal sacrifices for people to learn of the price of sin & the only way to have forgiveness is to repent, obey God`s laws and go up to Jerusalem to worship, learn His ways, and have judgments settled.

We, the Body of Christ are a different group as we are the Ekklesia, the called out ones, called out of the nations and called out of Israel. It is not an earthly calling.

regards, Marilyn.



 
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BABerean2

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IMO - it is perfectly logical that God should fulfill His promises to the earthly nation of Israel in the millennial period. I.e. - He will reign and rule on the throne of David from an earthly Jerusalem for a thousand years in fulfillment of all of His promises to Israel in the O.T.

What did Jesus say to the woman at the well about worshipping in Jerusalem?


Joh 4:19  The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 
Joh 4:20  Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 
Joh 4:21  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 
Joh 4:22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 
Joh 4:23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 
Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.



Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 

Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

Heb 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 



In 2nd Peter 3:10-13, Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth on the Day of the Lord when He comes as a thief.

We should be looking for the same thing.


The fire comes at His Second Coming, based on the passage below.

The Judgment at Christ's Coming (subtitle from eSword)


2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 

2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is the fulfillment of all Old Testament promises. It is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.


God sent His Son to die on the Cross of Calvary for all races of people.
What did He leave undone when he said "It is finished" ?

.
 
 
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redleghunter

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I'm open to any other debate about anything else you have to say regarding the rapture.
Thanks for the OP. One of three 'rapture' threads right now if I have the count right. :)

I would start with the usual claim: 'you cannot find rapture in the Bible.' This was my response on another thread, same subject:

How good is your Latin?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Caught up in Koine Greek is harpazō

In the Latin Vulgate "caught up" is rapiemur:


deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus (1 Thessalonians 4:17)


Right there in Latin Vulgate is the word "rapture!"----'caught up.'

1 Thessalonians 4:1 (KJV)

Now maybe your question was really timing. Like when is it or that you see the same rapiemur as the resurrection.

Then again some prominent church fathers did believe in a "caught up" before the second coming of Christ.
 
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Matisyahu8898

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I am a Pan Tribulationist. I figure it will all pan out in the end.

God Bless
Jax
Don't you think that it's fun to try and speculate the end times, even though you can't know for sure? Jesus said that if you aren't ready for Him, then He'll come like a thief in the night.
 
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Matisyahu8898

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Very few modern Christians know why modern Dispensational Theology needs a pretrib removal of the Church. The original promoters of the doctrine claimed that the "Church Age" was merely a "parenthesis" in God's dealing with the nation of Israel.
They claimed God would end the "Age of Grace" and would go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system during the 7 year period before the Second Coming of Christ.


What is wrong with the idea?

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13. The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20. Therefore, God is not going back to an "obsolete" covenant during a future time. We find those under the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant Church.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant modern Dispensational Theology falls apart and its pretrib doctrine falls with it.


The following links will provide you with the answers you are looking for.
However, it will take some time to review them.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Left Behind or Led Astray?
Good Fight Ministries
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

The New Covenant: Bob George
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj7NQffg_NE

.
Yeah, I feel like the "parenthesis" idea is more symbolic then literal. There is no reason for God to go back to the old covenant. However, God used to deal mostly with Jews, and since Paul, it seems like God's focus has shifted to the Gentiles. But in Revelation, it seems that His focus goes back to the Jews with the 144,000, and the two witnesses, as well as Jesus's talk of the temple being destroyed, and the Beast defiling the temple, but we Christian Gentiles will still be here.
 
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Matisyahu8898

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Christ comes as a thief... And a thief does not come well announced. I see Christ coming as the world is in a big party scene, in which the Lord says...

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 15:16
I think you mean, Revelation 16:15, rather than the other way around. Also, I'd like to say that, I don't take this verse and think, "Oh well, I guess I'll never know." But I think I have to stay ready, and not join in on this, "party" you speak of. I think He wants our attention, and wants us to be aware in a time like this. If the whole world is in a party, I don't even want to be invited.
 
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Servant232

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The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. Pro 10:30

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. John 17:15

All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor precede us. Amos 9:10

The context of this verse in Amos takes place during the time of the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David, also known as Jacob's trouble, The Great Tribulation, The Dark and Cloudy Day, The Affliction, The Evil

And all those that say, we are getting raptured out of here before this happens will not be protected and shall die by the sword.

It does not pan out well for them, His people perishing for lack of knowledge. A false hope.

But we are not like those that have no hope, YESHUA will bring them back with Him, and they will be resurrected first, and then those that are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet Him in the air when He returns the second time to reign and rule from Jerusalem.
 
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BABerean2

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However, God used to deal mostly with Jews, and since Paul, it seems like God's focus has shifted to the Gentiles. But in Revelation, it seems that His focus goes back to the Jews with the 144,000, and the two witnesses, as well as Jesus's talk of the temple being destroyed, and the Beast defiling the temple, but we Christian Gentiles will still be here.

The Book of Revelation is a book of symbols.
We automatically know the Lamb is Christ and the dragon is Satan, throughout the book.


Who are the two witnesses?

The text says they are the Olive Trees and Candlesticks.
We know they cannot be two men made of wood and metal.


Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 

In the verse above Paul uses the wild olive tree and the cultivated olive as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite and Gentile branches grafted together into one tree.

Rev 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. 

In the verse above Christ says the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches.

In the Book of Revelation the 144,000 are described as "firstfruits and "virgins".
Paul uses the same language to describe Christians in his letters. (Romans 16:5, 2 Corinthians 11:2)


The Church as a whole has never been a Gentile Church.
During the first few years of the Church almost all of its members were Israelites.


.
 
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Marvin Knox

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What did Jesus say to the woman at the well about worshipping in Jerusalem?.................The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is the fulfillment of all Old Testament promises. It is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
God sent His Son to die on the Cross of Calvary for all races of people.
What did He leave undone when he said "It is finished" ?
And your point is what?:scratch:
I see you point. Now had you thought that the people of the nations that go into the Millennium are those who need to learn of God`s ways.
Yes - I have.
 
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Servant232

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And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of esau; and the Kingdom shall be YHWH's. Obadiah 1:21 - Revelation 11:15

Plural ~ saviours

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's Name written in their foreheads. Revelation 14:1


And YHWH will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the Glory shall be a defence. Isaiah 4:5

Plural ~ assemblies


When YHWH shall build up Zion, He shall Appear in His Glory. Psa 102:16

Looking for
that blessed hope, and the Glorious Appearing of the Great God and our Saviour YESHUA Mashiach; Titus 2:13



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him (Jacob) marvellous things. Micah 7:15

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. Jeremiah 30:6 - Revelation 3:10

 
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jax5434

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Don't you think that it's fun to try and speculate the end times, even though you can't know for sure? Jesus said that if you aren't ready for Him, then He'll come like a thief in the night.

Fun perhaps. But I tell Christians that they should live everyday like Jesus is returning tomorrow. That way you do not have to worry about the timing.
God Bless
Jax
 
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BABerean2

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Yes some do. However this is a fringe view.

The idea was clearly taught by Darby, Scofield, and Larkin.
The newer form of the doctrine is a mutation of the original teaching.


Look below at the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.

Scofield claimed that the "everlasting Gospel" preached during the tribulation period is not of Grace.

Based on Galatians 1:6-9, this is a big problem with the doctrine.

.......................................................................
Revelation 14:6

gospel
Gospel. This great theme may be summarized as follows:
I. In itself, the word Gospel means good news.
II. Four forms of the Gospel are to be distinguished:
(1) The Gospel of the kingdom. This is the good news that God purposes to set up on the earth, in fulfilment of the Davidic Covenant: (2Sa_7:16): a kingdom, political, spiritual, Israelitish, universal, over which God's Son, David's heir, shall be King, and which shall be, for one thousand years, the manifestation of the righteousness of God in human affairs.

(See Scofield) - (Mat_3:2).

Two preachings of this Gospel are mentioned, one past, beginning with the ministry of John the Baptist, continued by our Lord and His disciples, and ending with the Jewish rejection of the King. The other is yet future (Mat_24:14) during the great tribulation, and immediately preceding the coming of the King in glory.

(2) The Gospel of the grace of God. This is the good news that Jesus Christ, the rejected King, has died on the cross for the sins of the world, that He was raised from the dead for our justification, and that, by Him, all that believe are justified from all things. This form of the Gospel is described in many ways. It is the Gospel...
"of God" (Rom_1:1) because it originates in His love;
"of Christ" (2Co_10:14) because it flows from His sacrifice, and because He is the alone Object of Gospel faith;
of the "grace of God" (Act_20:24) because it saves those whom the law curses;
of "the glory"; (1Ti_1:11); (2Co_4:4) because it concerns Him who is in the glory, and who is bringing the many sons to glory; (Heb_2:10);
of "our salvation" (Eph_1:13) because it is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth"; (Rom_1:16);
of "the uncircumcision" (Gal_2:7) because it saves wholly apart from forms and ordinances of "peace" (Eph_6:15) because through Christ it makes peace between the sinner and God, and imparts inward peace.

(3) The everlasting Gospel. (Rev_14:6). This is to be preached to the earth-dwellers at the very end of the great tribulation and immediately preceding the judgment of the nations (Mat_15:31). It is neither the Gospel of the kingdom, nor of grace. Though its burden is judgment, not salvation, it is good news to Israel and to those who, during the tribulation, have been saved; (Rev_7:9-14); (Luk_21:28); (Psa_96:11-13); (Isa_35:4-10).

(4) That which Paul calls, "my Gospel" (Rom_2:16). This is the Gospel of the grace of God in its fullest development, but includes the revelation of the result of that Gospel in the outcalling of the church, her relationships, position, privileges, and responsibility. It is the distinctive truth of Ephesians and Colossians, but interpenetrates all of Paul's writings.

III. There is "another Gospel" (Gal_1:6); (2Co_11:4) "which is not another," but a perversion of the Gospel of the grace of God, against which we are warned. It has many seductive forms, but the test is one -- it invariably denies the sufficiency of grace alone to save, keep, and perfect, and mingles with grace some kind of human merit. In Galatia it was law, in Colosse fanaticism (Col_2:18); etc. In any form, its teachers lie under the awful anathema of God.

angel


(See Scofield) - (Heb_1:4).
................................................................................

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36. On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart.

.
 
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johnny margetts

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Hello, I am a 19-year-old fellow Christian, and I have plenty of concerns regarding the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PTR).

Scroll down for TL;DR.

Some of my favorite bible teachers, and preachers believe in the PTR. I never had a strong belief in it, but always kind of assumed it did exist, mostly because of the Left Behind movies/books, and the people I listened to. I like studying end times prophecy, and so, upon doing my own research, I started to doubt it's existence. I think that PTR believers' interpretation of Revelation is fairly accurate, with the coming Beast and tribulation (however, I'm not sure it's going to be exactly seven years long, because Revelation isn't specific enough), but I don't see any evidence that Christians will be raptured out to avoid it.

Anyways, let's get to the point...
I have seen many people argue for, and against the PTR, but I think that most people just bicker, and I have yet to see any intelligent debate concerning the PTR. Most people from both sides seem to have their go-to questions that just get annoying, and no question from either side seem to bring anything valuable into question. I personally don't believe in the PTR. I don't think that there is near enough evidence for it, and think that it's illogical to believe in it. I, however, may be missing something that most people don't mention, and so that's why I want to debate it here. I am very open to the idea of it, but can't find evidence myself.

The things I hear the most are as follows:

Those against the PTR (here after referred to as, "anti-PTRs") say,
"The word, 'Rapture' is never in the bible."
"The Rapture doctrine has only been around for a few hundred years."

Those who believe in the PTR (here after referred to as, "PTRs") quote,
1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17
1 Corinthians 15:51-53

I, someone who is open to both sides, see these arguments and my problems with this are as follows:

The anti-PTRs shouldn't care about the word itself. Who cares if it is ever mentioned by name or not? Question what the bible says about it. Most PTRs openly say that 'rapture' is a man given name that comes from Greek and Latin words that are in the bible. The word, "Trinity" is never in the bible, but the bible is very explicit about the existence of it, and the word,
"Godhead" is in the bible. 'Trinity' is a man given word that explains the split person of God.
Since the rapture is recent doctrine, one should look at it very skeptically, but it doesn't mean you should just toss it out immediately! You're saying that every mystery of the bible has already been revealed, and anyone who finds something new is making something up? It may be likely, but it isn't a sure thing. Just look at the sign of Revelation 12 that took place in the sky last September. No one ever thought that that was referring to the stars until they looked up and saw what was going on (I'm not saying that the Sept 23rd sign is definitely of sure significance, but I do think that Jesus wants our attention. It's a little hard to completely dismiss). A lot of the anti-PTRs are Calvanists, at least most I know, and Calvanism introduced tons of doctrines just a few hundreds years before the rapture doctrine. (I don't personally believe in Calvanism, but we'll talk about that another day.)

The PTRs can't use just those two verse, because they don't explicitly say anything about the tribulation. Both refer to the second coming of Jesus Christ, but neither say that their will be a rapture before the Beast's appearance, or that Christians will be spared from God's wrath. 1 Thess. refers to going up to meet God, but never mentions that we will be caught up before the tribulation. It only says that being caught up will be involved when Jesus comes back. 1 Cor. says that we will have to be changed in order to enter Heaven. Paul is saying that our bodies aren't just going to stop aging, but instead our bodies will have to be changed in order to be 'imperishable', and 'immortal'. This happens to the dead bodies as well. The souls of the dead will come back to claim their bodies once again, but before going back into Heaven they will have to be perfect bodies, not piles of dust, or half-decomposed skeletons. It makes no sense to me that people take these verses in 1 Cor., and say that this means that every Christian on earth will all of the sudden disappear leaving behind their clothes (some say blood as well), and everyone left on earth is going to be stuck dodging empty cars. I mean, come on...where are you getting that from?!

Too Long; Didn't Read:
Those for, and those against the Pre-Trib Rapture, just seem to bicker, and never any intelligent debate. They both seem to be very stubborn, and those for the PTR, don't provide any logical evidence.

So, my request for you, is that can you please tell me why people believe in the PTR, and allow me to possibly debate you? Or, if you are anti-PTR, like me, if there is any scripture that sheds a little extra light on the situation that I don't know, that would be greatly appreciated, or if you have anything else you'd like to add about why the PTR is false.
I'm open to any other debate about anything else you have to say regarding the rapture. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, and you'd like to point it out to me, or maybe you have a view that disagrees with both sides (I know that are a lot of different theories about the end times, so let's constrict this to viewpoints concerning the PTR, not the second coming in general).

Thanks in advance for your replies! I appreciate your opinion.
In Christ, Matt
not that old chestnut still raising it's head? There is no end to any debate about spiritual meaning. Actually it really doesn't matter, it might seem to but it doesn't. What matters is did you feed a hungry person today, or clothe someone or offer comfort when someone is in pain.
 
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Quasar92

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Hello, I am a 19-year-old fellow Christian, and I have plenty of concerns regarding the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PTR).

Scroll down for TL;DR.

Some of my favorite bible teachers, and preachers believe in the PTR. I never had a strong belief in it, but always kind of assumed it did exist, mostly because of the Left Behind movies/books, and the people I listened to. I like studying end times prophecy, and so, upon doing my own research, I started to doubt it's existence. I think that PTR believers' interpretation of Revelation is fairly accurate, with the coming Beast and tribulation (however, I'm not sure it's going to be exactly seven years long, because Revelation isn't specific enough), but I don't see any evidence that Christians will be raptured out to avoid it.

Anyways, let's get to the point...
I have seen many people argue for, and against the PTR, but I think that most people just bicker, and I have yet to see any intelligent debate concerning the PTR. Most people from both sides seem to have their go-to questions that just get annoying, and no question from either side seem to bring anything valuable into question. I personally don't believe in the PTR. I don't think that there is near enough evidence for it, and think that it's illogical to believe in it. I, however, may be missing something that most people don't mention, and so that's why I want to debate it here. I am very open to the idea of it, but can't find evidence myself.

The things I hear the most are as follows:

Those against the PTR (here after referred to as, "anti-PTRs") say,
"The word, 'Rapture' is never in the bible."
"The Rapture doctrine has only been around for a few hundred years."

Those who believe in the PTR (here after referred to as, "PTRs") quote,
1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17
1 Corinthians 15:51-53

I, someone who is open to both sides, see these arguments and my problems with this are as follows:

The anti-PTRs shouldn't care about the word itself. Who cares if it is ever mentioned by name or not? Question what the bible says about it. Most PTRs openly say that 'rapture' is a man given name that comes from Greek and Latin words that are in the bible. The word, "Trinity" is never in the bible, but the bible is very explicit about the existence of it, and the word,
"Godhead" is in the bible. 'Trinity' is a man given word that explains the split person of God.
Since the rapture is recent doctrine, one should look at it very skeptically, but it doesn't mean you should just toss it out immediately! You're saying that every mystery of the bible has already been revealed, and anyone who finds something new is making something up? It may be likely, but it isn't a sure thing. Just look at the sign of Revelation 12 that took place in the sky last September. No one ever thought that that was referring to the stars until they looked up and saw what was going on (I'm not saying that the Sept 23rd sign is definitely of sure significance, but I do think that Jesus wants our attention. It's a little hard to completely dismiss). A lot of the anti-PTRs are Calvanists, at least most I know, and Calvanism introduced tons of doctrines just a few hundreds years before the rapture doctrine. (I don't personally believe in Calvanism, but we'll talk about that another day.)

The PTRs can't use just those two verse, because they don't explicitly say anything about the tribulation. Both refer to the second coming of Jesus Christ, but neither say that their will be a rapture before the Beast's appearance, or that Christians will be spared from God's wrath. 1 Thess. refers to going up to meet God, but never mentions that we will be caught up before the tribulation. It only says that being caught up will be involved when Jesus comes back. 1 Cor. says that we will have to be changed in order to enter Heaven. Paul is saying that our bodies aren't just going to stop aging, but instead our bodies will have to be changed in order to be 'imperishable', and 'immortal'. This happens to the dead bodies as well. The souls of the dead will come back to claim their bodies once again, but before going back into Heaven they will have to be perfect bodies, not piles of dust, or half-decomposed skeletons. It makes no sense to me that people take these verses in 1 Cor., and say that this means that every Christian on earth will all of the sudden disappear leaving behind their clothes (some say blood as well), and everyone left on earth is going to be stuck dodging empty cars. I mean, come on...where are you getting that from?!

Too Long; Didn't Read:
Those for, and those against the Pre-Trib Rapture, just seem to bicker, and never any intelligent debate. They both seem to be very stubborn, and those for the PTR, don't provide any logical evidence.

So, my request for you, is that can you please tell me why people believe in the PTR, and allow me to possibly debate you? Or, if you are anti-PTR, like me, if there is any scripture that sheds a little extra light on the situation that I don't know, that would be greatly appreciated, or if you have anything else you'd like to add about why the PTR is false.
I'm open to any other debate about anything else you have to say regarding the rapture. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, and you'd like to point it out to me, or maybe you have a view that disagrees with both sides (I know that are a lot of different theories about the end times, so let's constrict this to viewpoints concerning the PTR, not the second coming in general).

Thanks in advance for your replies! I appreciate your opinion.
In Christ, Matt


Hi Matt, I will provide you with the teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, in the following four post sequence:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church

Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

Immediately following the rapture of the Church. "He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27, the 70th week of Dan. the seven years of tribulation and Mt.24:15].

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7:

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Hi Matt, I will provide you with the teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, in the following four post sequence:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church

Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

Immediately following the rapture of the Church. "He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27, the 70th week of Dan. the seven years of tribulation and Mt.24:15].

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7:

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92


Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


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