To My Brethren...evolution

Follower of Christ · Mar 16, 2003

Gee, Bear, an Atheist gave me that SAME line.

ARE you an atheist ?
It WOULD explain your comments

If not, I have to assume you are trying to play the word game with me as they did.

In the verse you gave, was an evening and a morning also established?

Without that, the word "yom' may very well mean an ''age''

I guess next you'll be asking me that since God can do anything, can He make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it.

VEEERRRYY intelligent.

Andrew · Mar 17, 2003

Keep up the good work Follower of Christ.

God does not lie. Science and God are not at odds with each other.

That depends on what kind of science you are talking about. Evolution "science" certainly falls into this ....

1Ti 6:20
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

And such "science" is still doing the same thing today -- opposing the Bible, denying God exists etc.

Follower of Christ · Mar 17, 2003

G1108
ãíù͂óéò
gnōsis
gno'-sis
From G1097; knowing (the act), that is, (by implication) knowledge: - knowledge, science.

FOC:

Its a good thing the definition included "by implication".

Thats about ALL the evidence evolution has, ''implication".

So if you call it science based on that alone, then maybe it is ''science''.

I have to wonder if the idea of ''implication'' wasnt added to the definition at some point to cover unprovable ''theory''.

nephilimiyr · Mar 17, 2003

Follewer of CHrist. Over 80% of catholic priests acknowledge that Adam and Eve were not real people and never existed. Yet, obviously they still beleive in God and salvation through Jesus. THAT is the kind of appreciation that comes after years of bible study - and and understanding that God is not some kind of Santa Claus (complete with white beard and workshop) that lives in the sky.

Thus one of the reason for the demise of the Catholic religion.

nephilimiyr · Mar 17, 2003

The Bear

Yes indeed! If someone rejects salvation through Jesus Christ, they are <I>spiriturally</I> bankrupt, and delight in their unrighteousness. And <B>that</B> is where the line is truly drawn. To say that belief in an evolutionary creation process, somehow diminishes God, or shows deviation from salvation, (if there is such a thing), couldn't be further from the truth. The more of God's creation that is explained from a scientific approach, the more I am in awe of His creation.

The wonderful and intricate details of His work, are truly amazing. And the more that is discovered, the more amazed I am, at His power and knowledge.

God does not lie. Science and God are not at odds with each other. Science merely attempts to explain God's creation, and makes advances in technologies, based on those explainations of God's creation. The explainations that fall short of the mark, and fail to advance, are extremely short-lived.

The Bible is the Inspired Word of God. Spiritural interpretation is the key.

1Co 2:14 -

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

By and large the scriptures avoid contact with the science of men. God does not forbid us to search for answers into the laws of his creation but he does not aid or accelerate our studies by revelation either. For now God would rather have us attentive to the moral renovation of ourselves and others. He however will open up his vast stores of wisdom to those who love and trust him where so that those people may delight in their souls with the secrets of his creative power.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matt. 6:33

 

fragmentsofdreams · Mar 17, 2003

Today at 08:44 AM nephilimiyr said this in Post #26

Thus one of the reason for the demise of the Catholic religion.

What demise? It's filled with life.

nephilimiyr · Mar 17, 2003

Keep up the good work Follower of Christ. <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border=0>

I agree with Andrew here and would like to cheer you on too! I don't agree with everything you say but I admire your tenacity and respect your knowledge and belief of the text.

 

Frag.

What demise? It's filled with life.

I am an ex catholic and know many ex catholics. Although there are many different reasons why we have left the church one of them is because of teachings such as the one stated above.

Follower of Christ · Mar 17, 2003

Christians will probably never see eye to eye on every issue.

The diversity in understanding makes us search even deeper into Gods word. I believe it is Gods failsafe for us.
It keeps us all in check.

I dont normally even get involved with christians debating because everyone always ''knows'' they are the correct party.
It leads to nothing but arguements and hurt feelings.

But this evolution issue is a very serious one because it is striking at the very heart of our faith, TRUTH.

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith...."
(1 Timothy 6:20-21 KJV)

notto · Mar 17, 2003

Today at 06:11 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #30

Christians will probably never see eye to eye on every issue.

The diversity in understanding makes us search even deeper into Gods word. I believe it is Gods failsafe for us.
It keeps us all in check.

I dont normally even get involved with christians debating because everyone always ''knows'' they are the correct party.
It leads to nothing but arguements and hurt feelings.

But this evolution issue is a very serious one because it is striking at the very heart of our faith, TRUTH.

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith...."
(1 Timothy 6:20-21 KJV)

I think there is a contradiction in there somewhere.

We can't agree on everything - check
There is diversity in understanding - check
Everyone believes they are right so debate is somewhat pointless - check
You have the truth and my "truth" in incorrect - whoops

I believe that truth is the heart of the faith as well. I look at creation as telling me the truth. This causes me to evaluate scripture in relation to this truth. I trust that God made the creation the way we see it and that we can examine the physical creation to learn more about it. This does nothing to hurt the truth of scripture. God created . . . I think we can agree on this truth.

Follower of Christ · Mar 17, 2003

See, here is where the word games begin.

GODS TRUTH and mans not being able to agree on it.

Just because there is a diversity in OUR understanding does not mean there is not ONE truth.
It merely means that someone is wrong.

You have no contradiction

God doesnt judge us for what we do NOT know, but for what we DO know.

''Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see; therefore, your sin remains. "
(John 9:41 LITV)

I have noticed in dealing with unbelievers, that when one starts to lose an issue, one starts trying to play on words and doing things like pointing out typos.

Follower of Christ · Mar 17, 2003

For anyone interested, check out AIG's website.....

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2452.asp

click on the "Q&A tab'' at the top of the page

nephilimiyr · Mar 17, 2003

notto

I believe that truth is the heart of the faith as well. I look at creation as telling me the truth. This causes me to evaluate scripture in relation to this truth. I trust that God made the creation the way we see it and that we can examine the physical creation to learn more about it. This does nothing to hurt the truth of scripture. God created . . . I think we can agree on this truth.

I don't know if I'm understanding you correctly here but I say we should look toward scripture to tell us the truth then we can evaluate his creation in relation to that truth. I don't see it the other way around.

I didn't become a christian by forming any belief about the first chapter in Genesis. It was after I decided to call him lord and reading his word from the NT that I became interested in the how, why, and when of his creation. I didn't form a true opinion untill I already had faith in his word. I realize this isn't true for everybody but I can't help but think of these passages Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matt. 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 

Follower of Christ · Mar 17, 2003

I started out as a evolutionist in my walk with Christ.

It was very cunfusing and hard to understand scripture from that point of view.

I decided I was going to start from scratch with just my basic belief in God and my faith and see where I got.

Starting with DNA and Genetics, I was completely amazed that anyone, including atheist scientists, could believe in evolution.

I recieved MOST of the information I got from SECULAR sources.

After starting to understand, I was overjoyed to run across Answers in Genesis.
I was beginning to think I was the only one who believed in a literal 6 day creation other than those who never research the issue.

All the studying I did also took me away from the doctrine I had been in.

There were too many inconsistancies in relation to scripture.

So I have decided that I follow Christ. I take my God at His word.
And now the whole picture is very clear.

"Then you shall call on Me, and you shall go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you shall seek and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. "
(Jeremiah 29:12-13 LITV)

nephilimiyr · Mar 17, 2003

As I've said before I don't believe everything you have to say foc but hey, I'm glad your here!

I believe in the gap theory, perhaps you and I can start a thread and debate this? No one else here seems to be willing. You either have to be an evolutionist or a young earth creationist here, I seem to be stuck in the middle.

notto · Mar 17, 2003

Today at 07:50 PM nephilimiyr said this in Post #34

notto

I don't know if I'm understanding you correctly here but I say we should look toward scripture to tell us the truth then we can evaluate his creation in relation to that truth. I don't see it the other way around.

I didn't become a christian by forming any belief about the first chapter in Genesis. It was after I decided to call him lord and reading his word from the NT that I became interested in the how, why, and when of his creation. I didn't form a true opinion untill I already had faith in his word. I realize this isn't true for everybody but I can't help but think of these passages Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matt. 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 

I think there is a bit of misunderstanding and it seems that on this forum it is hard to clear up. I am not saying that God lied in Genesis or that it is wrong. My understanding of scripture has led me to understand that it is not literal and was not intended to be literal in the first place (hense, I'm not claiming it is a lie or wrong). I have spent my life studying nature and my understanding of nature (creation) doesn't discount God as the creator and the lessons of Genesis. I have to trust that I have not been deceived by what I have witnessed in creation and I have to trust that what scripture reveals to me is true. Much like your understanding of scripture leads you to believe in the Gap theory.

God works in mysterious ways but God still works.

Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "He who through faith is righteous shall live." 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.

I see God in the creation God made and I honor God.

Follower of Christ · Mar 17, 2003

notto:

"I think there is a bit of misunderstanding and it seems that on this forum it is hard to clear up. I am not saying that God lied in Genesis or that it is wrong. "

FOC;

You must understand something, I didnt start this issue to debate.
I really loathe debating as it NEVER accomplishes the goal of persuading the opponent.
It almost always leads to arguing and hard feelings.

I don't believe for a second that you or any other christian who believes in evolution are bad or against Christianity.
I am sorry if I have made you feel or anyone else feel this way.

I believe you DO honor God. That was never in my mind that you didnt.

Believe it or not, this is all just out of concern and love for my brothers and sisters God has given me.
YOU all are my family and I do cherish everyone that goes by the name of Christian.

notto · Mar 17, 2003

Today at 04:40 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #38

I don't believe for a second that you or any other christian who believes in evolution are bad or against Christianity.
I am sorry if I have made you feel or anyone else feel this way.

I believe you DO honor God. That was never in my mind that you didnt.

It might have been your repeated asking of "Are you an atheist?" to myself and other Christians participating here that would cause fellow Christians to feel this way. If it was never in you mind that I didn't believe in or honor God even after I had plainly stated that I do believe, why did you ask?

Thanks for the last post. Perhaps we should spend some time on what Creationists and Theistic Evolutionist can agree on in scripture and creation instead of the differences.

Follower of Christ · Mar 17, 2003

Keep in mind I have spent the last 2 months ''debating'' Atheist Dennis Mckinsey and crew.
They are ruthless (although they make me think) in thier attacks.

There are very similar points of view and debate tactics being used here, so I started wondering if some werent atheists trying to play off as being christians.

I figured if I asked openly if someone was an athiest, then his cover may be blown and I could deal with him directly instead of through the guise of being christian.
Atheists had lied to me so much in our previous debates, its quite possible for them to play off as being a christian and then acting offended by my asking.

Christians usually understand the whole picture. Atheists dont.
When I saw similarities in questions presented and the tactics used, I assumed too much.

My fault. I will not question your faith again

Follower of Christ · Mar 17, 2003

I guess where I am coming from is a belief that there is absolute truth.

believing that, I ask myself ''why would God distort the facts of creation?''
''what would be the purpose in saying 'days', if billions of years were meant?''

Were Moses and the prophets incapable of understanding Billions of years?
There seems no logical sense in God saying days for no aparent reason.
And then for Him to go out of His way to descibe and define the days in His description makes it even more of an issue.

But then I think that maybe this was His plan to begin with.
MAYBE HE is doing as He has done in the past (see the story of Joseph up until Moses ), and setting up a grand scenario in which He will set up punishment for unbelief.

So He says days.
He already knows that in the end He will allow man to have ''knowledge'' that will cause them to question this.

He has already made, from the beginning, the ultimate plan that will not only delude the unbeliever, but also cause the falling away (both in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2) in the end times.

If one thinks its not just like God to do this, I would have you look to where the very first prophecy of the Christ is, Genesis 3:15, right from the start.

And anyone thinking God wouldnt allow us to be decieved, I ask you to study 2 Chronicles and Romans to start.

"And a spirit came out and stood before Jehovah and said, I will tempt him. And Jehovah said, With what? And he said, I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall tempt him, and you are able. Go out and do so. And now behold, Jehovah has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets, and Jehovah has spoken evil against you. " (2 Chronicles 18:20-22 MKJV)

Granted this is for a specific reason, but look at what it is in the previous verses.

I cant prove anything.
I just hope my thoughts are wrong and I am not watching my beloved brethren falling for the lie.

LewisWildermuth · Mar 18, 2003

My thoughts on this is that the truth of science (or how creation happened or worked) is and was totally irrelevant to the spiritual truth that the text was trying to get across.

Jesus called the mustard seed the least of all seeds, but even at that time smaller seeds were known of, especially by the Romans. The truth that the mustard seed is not the least of all seeds is not important to the message that was being conveyed.

To My Brethren...evolution

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