Atheism is amoral

Ana the Ist

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So, in summation, you believe your position is true based on your interpretation of the evidence despite being unable to prove indisputably that you are correct.

Sure.


This is faith.

I don't recall ever seeing that definition of faith.



In the interest of keeping more to topic, I will ignore the irony of this one and bring us back to what sparked our little conversation. You were mocking belief in creationism by attacking something from nothing.

Not mocking...I was presenting the creationism argument as I understand it. Every creationist I've ever spoken to believes that god simply magics things into existence. One moment there's nothing...the next moment a universe exists.

If you wish to clarify...you've had ample opportunity to do so.

I simply proposed that the dominant scientific approach today is fundamentally the same.

I would simply propose that you don't understand the prevailing scientific approach.


Rather than address my point or present a better theory as I requested, you said you don’t pretend to know what you don’t know.

I don't.

Of course, this statement is False, since you have acknowledged that you embrace atheism by faith, you clearly do pretend to know what you don’t know.

I already explained that atheism is a statement of belief...not knowledge...you do understand the difference between these two don't you?

You really don’t know if God is real, yet you believe he isn’t and live your life as though he isn’t. Why not just admit you take the universe's origin by faith as well? Why the intellectual dishonesty?

What intellectual dishonesty?
 
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jayem

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I made no assumption, Jayem did. Jayem made a claim that morality is purely evolution at work with no supernatural component. I simply pointed out the inability to prove that, thus making the claim speculative.

What proof of a god can you offer? That claim is even more speculative.

For the record, there is work being done on the evolution of morality. Check the link.

Is Human Morality a Product of Evolution?
 
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bhsmte

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That's true.

I don't understand why all the fuss in this thread.

Atheism provides this kind of "morality": If something is good for my pleasure in this world, I accept it, if something is bad for my pleasure in this world, I try to block it.

That's the basis of social contract you are describing.

But it doesn't make one thing inherently good or bad, it just makes it personally useful or not useful. That's what I am saying all along.

The downside is that truth by itself is also neither good nor bad in atheistic universe. It's just a utility. If truth is not useful, what's the value of it? It's all from nothing, by chance, into nothing anyway. As one of the poster said, "we believe we have this one life and we try to make the most of it." If getting the most of it sometimes involves telling a lie, cheating etc, who's to say that that's inherently bad? If a person is going to get better life, "this one life we have", by lying and cheating, maybe sporadically maybe constantly, that's not bad at all for that person. In fact that's pretty wise and intelligent.

More word salad.
 
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HenryM

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I think the OP is talking about nihilism. I don't know any atheists who think that "nothing matters"... If they did, they would would then be nihilists...lol

Not nihilism, hedonism - personal pleasure, or bias, or worldview matters. Thankfully there is God so He gives morality to all, including atheists.
 
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Rajni

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Not nihilism, hedonism - personal pleasure, or bias, or worldview matters.
Hedonism isn't an umbrella term for all of those things. Everyone has a personal bias, and everyone has a worldview, but that isn't what makes them hedonists.
 
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HenryM

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Hedonism isn't an umbrella term for all of those things. Everyone has a personal bias, and everyone has a worldview, but that isn't what makes them hedonists.

Hedonism - the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life.

That's exactly what atheism provides as fundamental worldview. It is the only thing that makes sense in a short existence that comes from nothing, by chance, going back to nothing.

It's just that different people have different desires and goals. Atheist can say that evolution evolved empathy and love, as poster comana recently wrote here, but not all people live their life by being highly empahtic and loving, so "evolution" obviously provided other states too. Personally fulfilling one's own state of being, articulated through personal desires and goals, is the highest good and proper aim of human life. That's basically, or literally, hedonism.

In universe created by God it is not about fullfiling "personal desire" but God's purpose. And Bible doesn't in any shape or form reveal that God's purpose for creation is to have people live out "their own personal desires".
 
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Rajni

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Hedonism - the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life.

That's exactly what atheism provides as foundamental worldview. It is the only thing that makes sense in a short existence that comes from nothing, by chance, going back to nothing.

It's just that different people have different desires and goals. Atheist can say that evolution evolved empathy and love, as poster comana recently wrote here, but not all people live their life by being highly empahtic and loving, so "evolution" obviously provided other states too. Personally fulfilling one's own state of being, articulated through personal desires and goals, is the highest good and proper aim of human life. That's basically, or literally, hedonism.

In universe created by God it is not about fullfiling "personal desire" but God's purpose. And Bible doesn't in any shape or form reveal that God's purpose for creation is to have people live out "their own personal desires".
But what if one's personal desire is God's purpose? Wouldn't that by definition make them hedonists, too?
 
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HenryM

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But what if one's personal desire is God's purpose? Wouldn't that by definition make them hedonists, too?

Yes, but Bible doesn't reveal that God's purpose is to have people live out their personal desires. We all do that to the extent, but that's something that God allows in order to achieve His purpose. God's purpose for this creation, as I see it, is to lift up beings into eternity with Him. In that way, main purpose of this life is to believe on Jesus Christ for salvation, because that's what Bible, Word of God, reveals that is needed to get the gift of eternal life.
 
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Rajni

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Yes, but Bible doesn't reveal that God's purpose is to have people live out their personal desires. We all do that to the extent, but that's something that God allows in order to achieve His purpose. God's purpose for this creation, as I see it, is to lift up beings into eternity with Him. In that way, main purpose of this life is to believe on Jesus Christ for salvation, because that's what Bible, Word of God, reveals that is needed to get the gift of eternal life.
Right, but what I'm saying is what if someone's personal desire is the exact same thing as God's purpose? And that person wants to achieve that personal desire, which also happens to be God's purpose? Do they get plastered with the label "hedonist" because of that, since they're trying to achieve their personal desires (which again, in this case, are also God's purposes)?
 
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HenryM

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Right, but what I'm saying is what if someone's personal desire is the exact same thing as God's purpose? And that person wants to achieve that personal desire, which also happens to be God's purpose? Do they get plastered with the label "hedonist" because of that, since they're trying to achieve their personal desires (which again, in this case, are also God's purposes)?

My intention is not to plaster anybody with anything. I think that what is essentially hedonism is foundational worldview within atheistic universe. But as a Christian, I see that we live in a world God created, and as such He provides morality to all of us, regardless of various philosophies that exist on Earth.

I do think that being an atheist is detrimental, though, because atheistic worldview, thanks to it's hedonistic foundation, lowers God given morality.

As far as someone's personal desire being exact as God's purpose, that's actually a whole topic, and I don't think this is the place for it. But in short, to connect to my previous post, God's main purpose for human life is to have a human being to believe in Jesus Christ. Because that's how human life gets eternal life. That's really no one's personal, intrinsic, desire. Man can have desire to live forever, but nobody intrinsically has such specific desire to believe on Jesus Christ. That's like having an intrinsic desire to eat certain brand of chocolate. You don't really believe in Christ because that's your desire, but because that's God's desire.
 
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expos4ever

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Henry, you are basically bearing false witness.

Others have repeatedly set you straight that there is clearly a coherent atheist view about morality that is not hedonistic.

Yet you continue in your misrepresentations.

How can we "address the topic, not the poster" if the poster - in this case you - is an unrepentant distorter.
 
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expos4ever

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But in short, to connect to my previous post, God's main purpose for human life is to have a human being to believe in Jesus Christ. Because that's how human life gets eternal life.
Not Biblical, although widely held in the church.

God's main purpose for human life is to fulfill the Adamic role - to reflect God into creations and be stewards of that creation. Granted, God has provided a way to restore us to that role: Jesus. And, yes, the believer is granted eternal life.

But this idea that it's all about "going to heaven when you die" is not what the Bible teaches. Consider Adam and Eve. What was their purpose?

To get eternal life?

Or to be the agents which channel God's loving care into this present world?

I'll take door number 2.
 
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Gene2memE

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Hedonism - the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life.

That's exactly what atheism provides as fundamental worldview. It is the only thing that makes sense in a short existence that comes from nothing, by chance, going back to nothing.

No, it isn't.

Atheism, as has been explained to you, is a single response to a single position.

Atheists do not accept the claim that gods exist. That's it. That's the only requirement to qualify as an atheist.

Atheism IS NOT A WORLD VIEW.

It's just that different people have different desires and goals. Atheist can say that evolution evolved empathy and love, as poster comana recently wrote here, but not all people live their life by being highly empahtic and loving, so "evolution" obviously provided other states too.

They can say that, and usually they can also support it with evidence.

Personally fulfilling one's own state of being, articulated through personal desires and goals, is the highest good and proper aim of human life. That's basically, or literally, hedonism.

Hedonism is the pursuit of your own desires to the exclusion of those of other people. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in the statement 'I lack belief in gods' that leads a person to hedonism (or utilitarianism, or nihilism, or moral relativism, or communism, or pretty much any other -ism you can name) as an outlook.

In universe created by God it is not about fullfiling "personal desire" but God's purpose. And Bible doesn't in any shape or form reveal that God's purpose for creation is to have people live out "their own personal desires".

It could be, it depends on the god you believe in.


Your issue here is that you're shaping atheism through the lense of your own beliefs. You are, in essence, pitting it as a counterweight to the package of beliefs about the world that your religion - or particular interpretation of your religion - requires you to make.

Atheism isn't that counterweight. It has a singular requirement, and nothing else.

You can be an atheist and oppose evolution, think the earth is flat or 10,000 years old, support moral objectivism, believe in the supernatural, think magic is real, and engage in any number of other weird beliefs.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Of course it's amoral, when you think about it. That doesn't mean that individual atheist is amoral. But he or she is moral for reason outside of atheism, not because of atheism.

You are correct so far.

Atheism is amoral because it's a worldview

Annnnnd FAIL. You can stop right there. Atheism is a philosophical position pertaining to one thing - the existence of gods. It is not a 'worldview'.

Atheists hold many different worldviews, containing within them any kind of moral philosophy - all the various stripes and combinations of small 'o' objectivism, big 'O' Objectivism, non-cognitivism, nihilism, utilitarianism, subjectivism, compatibilism, determinism etc. - precisely because atheism has no single, unifying 'worldview'.

In light of this basic conflation, the rest of your post is so much vacuous drivel.

Which is all to say nothing of the fact that you are in no position to judge the moral philosophy of anyone in the first place, since your own moral philosophy has no coherent epistemology or ontology to speak of.
 
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gaara4158

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Actually, theists who depend on their god to "give" them morality are the most amoral people in existence. They don't see any inherent "good" or "evil" in things, they only see what their god says about them. They can't think of a reason to conform to any particular moral standard if their god doesn't exist. Remove the grand carrot of Heaven and the great stick of Hell and suddenly nothing matters to them. Christians don't even value moral behavior in their own worldview; salvation comes to them through faith, not works.

Turns out either way you look at it, morality isn't objective. We're here together on Earth and it's up to us to decide how we want to live.
 
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InterestedApologist

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FAIL. You can stop right there. Atheism is a philosophical position pertaining to one thing - the existence of gods. It is not a 'worldview'.

While denying the existence of God/gods may not be a worldview in itself, it is certainly foundational to ones worldview and has numerous repercussions on someone’s morality. To suggest that whether or not an omnipotent being exists has zero impact on worldviews is intellectually dishonest.

Atheists hold many different worldviews, containing within them any kind of moral philosophy - all the various stripes and combinations of small 'o' objectivism, big 'O' Objectivism, non-cognitivism, nihilism, utilitarianism, subjectivism, compatibilism, determinism etc. - precisely because atheism has no single, unifying 'worldview'.

Precisely my point. It is, morally speaking, completely subjective. There is no objective standard that can be applied. Thus, while certain societal norms may be embraced as a majority ethic, these are subject to change at any moment or for any reason. Test it yourself. Find as many atheists as you can and quiz them on their stances on a few controversial issues and see if you share the same morality.
 
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