Church history on the Catholic Bible vs Protestant Bible?

tz620q

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Good Day,

Not that this has any thing to do with the historic doctrine of Sola Scripture.. I am more than ready to dend that much like you are ready to defend your understanding of churches teachings. For sure it has nothing to do with defining a canon...

I think he understood much like me ( and you I hope) that the word was delivered by God, and received by the church.

In Him,

Bill
In a sense, I agree and maybe my sound byte cliche is way too simple an approach. The Bible did not drop out of the sky at the Council of Hippo. It was not written there and it was not edited there. If anything it was only ratified there, a seal of approval from the church for what had been received already. But we cannot take the church out of the equation either. So maybe you can highlight your opinion on the influence of the church on what became the Bible.
 
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BBAS 64

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In a sense, I agree and maybe my sound byte cliche is way too simple an approach. The Bible did not drop out of the sky at the Council of Hippo. It was not written there and it was not edited there. If anything it was only ratified there, a seal of approval from the church for what had been received already. But we cannot take the church out of the equation either. So maybe you can highlight your opinion on the influence of the church on what became the Bible.

Good Day, TZ

I agree it did not drop out of the sky.... God indeed know what the canon was long before we had it. Did Hippo use that kind of language "seal of approval", been a while need to reread.

For the NT this will prove helpful for you in answering that question, and I will cove a small piece of it in the NT thread I will open. This is a great read on the subject, so much so I have to reread it:

https://www.amazon.com/Canon-Revisited-Establishing-Authority-Testament/dp/1433505002


I will focus on the OT, when you open a thread for that. remeber I do find the apocrypha useful for learning and edification. Just not a level of God breathed out, but lots truth and very useful.

In Him,

Bill
 
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tz620q

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Good Day, TZ

I agree it did not drop out of the sky.... God indeed know what the canon was long before we had it. Did Hippo use that kind of language "seal of approval", been a while need to reread.

For the NT this will prove helpful for you in answering that question, and I will cove a small piece of it in the NT thread I will open. This is a great read on the subject, so much so I have to reread it:

https://www.amazon.com/Canon-Revisited-Establishing-Authority-Testament/dp/1433505002

I read through what he presented here (as much as I could preview) and found it amusing that his marks of canonicity:

Providential Exposure : We trust in the providence of God to expose the church to the books it is to receive as canonical.

Perhaps he should acknowledge that the councils that discussed the original canons of Scripture had literally hundreds of New Testament books to decide from. So exposure was not lacking.

Attributes of canonicity: The Scriptures indicate that there are three attributes that all canonical books have: 1) divine qualities (marks of divinity) 2) corporate reception (recognized by the church as a whole) 3) apostolic origin

These attributes were first outlined in these councils as the criteria for how they made their choice.

Internal testimony of the Holy Spirit: The effects of sin keep the natural man from reliably recognizing the attributes of canonicity. Thus canonicity comes from the Holy Spirit opening the eyes of men to belief in these books.

Again, there has not been a single council called that did not pray for wisdom from the Holy Spirit before addressing the questions they were convened to talk about.

So in truth his final conclusion was to support what had already been decided and the criteria used. He tries hard to argue for a self-authenticating model; but the detractors he is trying to argue against would never agree with this model. Any attempt to say that a book is canonical because of its theology, creates a circular argument where one must first prove the basis for one's theology before canon even enters the picture. To say that one's theology is based on the Bible and one's canon is based on one's theology is circular. So this circle can only be broken by appealing to a Christian tradition that precedes the Bible and supports one's theology.

I will focus on the OT, when you open a thread for that. remeber I do find the apocrypha useful for learning and edification. Just not a level of God breathed out, but lots truth and very useful.

In Him,

Bill
Bill, I would rather we keep this in this thread. It really is not off topic and starting another thread would just dilute the audience.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Good Day,

The whole quote is really needed from (Against Rufinus) to fully understand what is being addressed.

33. In reference to Daniel my answer will be that I did not say that he was not a prophet; on the contrary, I confessed in the very beginning of the Preface that he was a prophet. But I wished to show what was the opinion upheld by the Jews; and what were the arguments on which they relied for its proof. I also told the reader that the version read in the Christian churches was not that of the Septuagint translators but that of Theodotion. It is true, I said that the Septuagint version was in this book very different from the original, and that it was condemned by the right judgment of the churches of Christ; but the fault was not mine who only stated the fact, but that of those who read the version. We have four versions to choose from: those of Aquila, Symmachus, the Seventy, and Theodotion. The churches choose to read Daniel in the version of Theodotion. What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us. I did not reply to their opinion in the Preface, because I was studying brevity, and feared that I should seem to be writing not a Preface but a book. I said therefore, As to which this is not the time to enter into discussion. Otherwise from the fact that I stated that Porphyry had said many things against this prophet, and called, as witnesses of this, Methodius, Eusebius, and Apollinarius, who have replied to his folly in many thousand lines, it will be in his power to accuse me for not having written in my Preface against the books of Porphyry. If there is any one who pays attention to silly things like this, I must tell him loudly and freely that no one is compelled to read what he does not want; that I wrote for those who asked me, not for those who would scorn me, for the grateful not the carping, for the earnest not the indifferent. Still, I wonder that a man should read the version of Theodotion the heretic and judaizer, and should scorn that of a Christian, simple and sinful though he may be.

Again (no disrespect) I find the Cardinals understanding of Jerome around this issue to be more historical and a bit more reliable then yours. Why is it you disagree with him?

Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.

Can you tell me why he was wrong... historically I find no one correcting him nor even challenging him..


In Him,

Bill
Good Day,

The whole quote is really needed from (Against Rufinus) to fully understand what is being addressed.

33. In reference to Daniel my answer will be that I did not say that he was not a prophet; on the contrary, I confessed in the very beginning of the Preface that he was a prophet. But I wished to show what was the opinion upheld by the Jews; and what were the arguments on which they relied for its proof. I also told the reader that the version read in the Christian churches was not that of the Septuagint translators but that of Theodotion. It is true, I said that the Septuagint version was in this book very different from the original, and that it was condemned by the right judgment of the churches of Christ; but the fault was not mine who only stated the fact, but that of those who read the version. We have four versions to choose from: those of Aquila, Symmachus, the Seventy, and Theodotion. The churches choose to read Daniel in the version of Theodotion. What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us. I did not reply to their opinion in the Preface, because I was studying brevity, and feared that I should seem to be writing not a Preface but a book. I said therefore, As to which this is not the time to enter into discussion. Otherwise from the fact that I stated that Porphyry had said many things against this prophet, and called, as witnesses of this, Methodius, Eusebius, and Apollinarius, who have replied to his folly in many thousand lines, it will be in his power to accuse me for not having written in my Preface against the books of Porphyry. If there is any one who pays attention to silly things like this, I must tell him loudly and freely that no one is compelled to read what he does not want; that I wrote for those who asked me, not for those who would scorn me, for the grateful not the carping, for the earnest not the indifferent. Still, I wonder that a man should read the version of Theodotion the heretic and judaizer, and should scorn that of a Christian, simple and sinful though he may be.

Again (no disrespect) I find the Cardinals understanding of Jerome around this issue to be more historical and a bit more reliable then yours. Why is it you disagree with him?

Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.

Can you tell me why he was wrong... historically I find no one correcting him nor even challenging him..


In Him,

Bill
I can only tell you that Jerome translated the Deuterocanon and submitted to the wisdom of the Church. That suffices for the Church.
 
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Norbert L

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Hey Godly brethrens,

I had an interesting chat with a friend who is a Christian orthodox. As we were sharing our faith, I noticed something slightly different especially the Old testamnet. Sorry long story short...I realized the orthodox read the catholic bible. So I did some checking up and found there were different books in the Catholic bible but almost identical to the Holy bible. I also learned that the Holy bible is called protestant bible, etc, including Martin Luther and the reformation. Wow mind blogging.

I am curious to know if why they removed those books from the OT and is it vital? I was thinking about God's can not be added and subtracted:

Revelation 22:18: "I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.…"

Let's fellowship.
Questions:
- is the above scripture talking about the manuscripts or the original bible?
- Is the original manuscript was translated to the catholic bible or protestant first? I also heard about King James playing a major role.

Just letting you know I am no catholic either so no offense to the almighty pope :p
I think it's necessary to figure out if John was referring to scriptures from Genesis to Revelation or when he wrote "this book", was he making a point about the original autograph of Revelation that was being penned out? It's not as they weren't capable of understanding and were completely oblivious to the notion that false prophets and false teachers also had a habit of writing things down too 2 Peter 2:1.
 
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Philip_B

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I think it's necessary to figure out if John was referring to scriptures from Genesis to Revelation or when he wrote "this book", was he making a point about the original autograph of Revelation that was being penned out? It's not as they weren't capable of understanding and were completely oblivious to the notion that false prophets and false teachers also had a habit of writing things down too 2 Peter 2:1.
I think it is clear that the writer of the Revelation of St John the Divine is endeavouring to maintain the integrity of what he was writing, and preserve it from being corrupted.

The notion of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation is much later idea, and when they were compiled it was called Biblios - Bible - The Books - The Library.
 
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HisBody

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Good Day, His

Can I have a primary source Jewish and 1 century for this...

"The Deuterocanonicals were in fact, PART of the OPEN Jewish Canon of Scripture.":

I find historically primary source:

"I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books." (Melito of Sardis, cited in Eusebius, Church History, 4:26)

I also write, by way of remembrance, of matters with which you are acquainted, influenced by the need and advantage of the Church. In proceeding to make mention of these things, I shall adopt, to commend my undertaking, the pattern of Luke the Evangelist, saying on my own account: 'Forasmuch as some have taken in hand,' to reduce into order for themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to the fathers; it seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as Divine...There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews...there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit" (Athanasius, Festal Letter 39:2-4, 39:7)

Something like those will work...

In Him,

Bill
The entire basis of this thread is historically-bankrupt.

First of all - the Canon of Scripture was not "finalized" at Trent. It was CLOSED at Trent. Here is a little history lesson on the canon of Scripture:

- The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified.
- It was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo eleven years later (393).
- At the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

As for Jerome - he didn't "reject" the Deuterocanonical Books - which you erroneously refer to as "Apocrypha". He was advised by the Jewish schlars at the time not to include them because they had been rejected by the late 1st century rabbinical school led by the false Jewish prophet named Rabbi Akiba.

Akiba, who rejected Christianity claimed that Jesus was not the Messiah. He falsely proclaimed a man named Simon bar Kokhba to be the Messiah. It was THIS man who rejected the Deuterocanonical Books as well as the Gospels as non-Scriptural.

Jerome actually used the Deuterocanonical Books in his debates and rererred to them as Sacred Scripture:

"What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn't relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]).

The Deuterocanonical Books are quoted or alluded to over 150 times in the New Testament. Jesus and the NT writers studied from these Books as they were part of the OPEN Jewish Canon of Scripture that existed in the 1st century. The Jewish Canon wasn't closed until AFTER Jesus ascended to Heaven and AFTER the destruction of the Temple.

Bottom Line: Protestants adhere to a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture.

Congratulations . . .
 
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Hawkins

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s the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.…"

Let's fellowship.
Questions:
- is the above scripture talking about the manuscripts or the original bible?
- Is the original manuscript was translated to the catholic bible or protestant first? I also heard about King James playing a major role.

Just letting you know I am no catholic either so no offense to the almighty pope :p

It is because the Bible is based off human accounts of testimonies while all kinds of human testimonies can be faked. So that warning is against human behavior in faking testimonies instead of a warning of how the Bible is canonized. Of course the warning can also be taken as a warning for the book of revelation.

The canonization of OT began with King Hezekiah that's why 17 out of the 22 books of the Jewish OT canon are said to be with a Hezekiah seal. The OT Canon are mainly written in Hebrew with books last edited by Ezra after the Babylon exile. It is a necessity because during the exile there's no a central authority for the publishing of OT scripture. Thus after the exile the different group of Jews in different period of exile and in different location may have a variance of the Bible. Ezra under God's instruction thus unified the OT Bible (the first 17 books at least). The canonization of the OT Bible however continues after Ezra. More books are added to the Canon but under extremely strict control by the central Sanhedrin. The last 2 books are added using the language of Aramaic instead of Hebrew because Aramaic becomes a more popular spoken language.

The Catholic OT canon however is not based on the valid Jewish Canon, possibly because Christianity in 2nd and 3rd centuries are maintained by early Christians who are not professed in Hebrew but Greek and Latin. That's why the Septuagint is used as a base for the canonization of OT. Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Jewish Bible books. It is widely used by those don't speak Hebrew and Aramaic, including those Hellenistic Jews who can no longer read in the Hebrew language. However, the Septuagint is an unmaintained book. There's no a central authority controls its accuracy. It's up to individual publishers to deem their copies as legitimate or not. Unlike the Jewish Canon which are under the strict supervision of the Sanhedrin. Only scribes appointed by the Great Sanhedrin can make legitimate copies of the Jewish Bible. Moreover, the Septuagint as a Greek translation contains more books than the Jewish Bible Canon.

It however makes more sense for the Jews to canonize the OT Bible as the contents are their testimonies and witnessing. They started the serious canonization ever since Hezekiah and through Ezra and through the strict control of the Great Sanhedrin. It's thus more likely that God is behind this Canon. The NT canonization is done in Greek by those early Christian fathers. It is because more likely that the NT books flowing around are written in Greek back then, as apostles may have to write them in Greek for the gospel to flow more effectively to the "four corners or to the end of the world". The Jews used to write documents in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. They are the most common language used by the Jews back then.
 
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Root of Jesse

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It is because the Bible is based off human accounts of testimonies while all kinds of human testimonies can be faked. So that warning is against human behavior in faking testimonies instead of a warning of how the Bible is canonized. Of course the warning can also be taken as a warning for the book of revelation.

The canonization of OT began with King Hezekiah that's why 17 out of the 22 books of the Jewish OT canon are said to be with a Hezekiah seal. The OT Canon are mainly written in Hebrew with books last edited by Ezra after the Babylon exile. It is a necessity because during the exile there's no a central authority for the publishing of OT scripture. Thus after the exile the different group of Jews in different period of exile and in different location may have a variance of the Bible. Ezra under God's instruction thus unified the OT Bible (the first 17 books at least). The canonization of the OT Bible however continues after Ezra. More books are added to the Canon but under extremely strict control by the central Sanhedrin. The last 2 books are added using the language of Aramaic instead of Hebrew because Aramaic becomes a more popular spoken language.

The Catholic OT canon however is not based on the valid Jewish Canon, possibly because Christianity in 2nd and 3rd centuries are maintained by early Christians who are not professed in Hebrew but Greek and Latin. That's why the Septuagint is used as a base for the canonization of OT. Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Jewish Bible books. It is widely used by those don't speak Hebrew and Aramaic, including those Hellenistic Jews who can no longer read in the Hebrew language. However, the Septuagint is an unmaintained book. There's no a central authority controls its accuracy. It's up to individual publishers to deem their copies as legitimate or not. Unlike the Jewish Canon which are under the strict supervision of the Sanhedrin. Only scribes appointed by the Great Sanhedrin can make legitimate copies of the Jewish Bible. Moreover, the Septuagint as a Greek translation contains more books than the Jewish Bible Canon.

It however makes more sense for the Jews to canonize the OT Bible as the contents are their testimonies and witnessing. They started the serious canonization ever since Hezekiah and through Ezra and through the strict control of the Great Sanhedrin. It's thus more likely that God is behind this Canon. The NT canonization is done in Greek by those early Christian fathers. It is because more likely that the NT books flowing around are written in Greek back then, as apostles may have to write them in Greek for the gospel to flow more effectively to the "four corners or to the end of the world". The Jews used to write documents in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. They are the most common language used by the Jews back then.
To the bolded, there was NO Jewish canon until after there was a declared Christian canon, so that statement is totally false. There were several different thoughts on what was the Canon for the Hebrews. One group, the Sadduccees, held only to the Torah. Others held to the Hebrew books, and others held to the Septuagint. Only after the Catholic Canon was held did the Jews produce one in contradiction to the Christian one.
 
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It is because the Bible is based off human accounts of testimonies while all kinds of human testimonies can be faked. So that warning is against human behavior in faking testimonies instead of a warning of how the Bible is canonized. Of course the warning can also be taken as a warning for the book of revelation.

The canonization of OT began with King Hezekiah that's why 17 out of the 22 books of the Jewish OT canon are said to be with a Hezekiah seal. The OT Canon are mainly written in Hebrew with books last edited by Ezra after the Babylon exile. It is a necessity because during the exile there's no a central authority for the publishing of OT scripture. Thus after the exile the different group of Jews in different period of exile and in different location may have a variance of the Bible. Ezra under God's instruction thus unified the OT Bible (the first 17 books at least). The canonization of the OT Bible however continues after Ezra. More books are added to the Canon but under extremely strict control by the central Sanhedrin. The last 2 books are added using the language of Aramaic instead of Hebrew because Aramaic becomes a more popular spoken language.

The Catholic OT canon however is not based on the valid Jewish Canon, possibly because Christianity in 2nd and 3rd centuries are maintained by early Christians who are not professed in Hebrew but Greek and Latin. That's why the Septuagint is used as a base for the canonization of OT. Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Jewish Bible books. It is widely used by those don't speak Hebrew and Aramaic, including those Hellenistic Jews who can no longer read in the Hebrew language. However, the Septuagint is an unmaintained book. There's no a central authority controls its accuracy. It's up to individual publishers to deem their copies as legitimate or not. Unlike the Jewish Canon which are under the strict supervision of the Sanhedrin. Only scribes appointed by the Great Sanhedrin can make legitimate copies of the Jewish Bible. Moreover, the Septuagint as a Greek translation contains more books than the Jewish Bible Canon.

It however makes more sense for the Jews to canonize the OT Bible as the contents are their testimonies and witnessing. They started the serious canonization ever since Hezekiah and through Ezra and through the strict control of the Great Sanhedrin. It's thus more likely that God is behind this Canon. The NT canonization is done in Greek by those early Christian fathers. It is because more likely that the NT books flowing around are written in Greek back then, as apostles may have to write them in Greek for the gospel to flow more effectively to the "four corners or to the end of the world". The Jews used to write documents in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. They are the most common language used by the Jews back then.

Good day,Hawkins


You may find this a useful read:

The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible

In Him,

Bill
 
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Hawkins

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To the bolded, there was NO Jewish canon until after there was a declared Christian canon, so that statement is totally false. There were several different thoughts on what was the Canon for the Hebrews. One group, the Sadduccees, held only to the Torah. Others held to the Hebrew books, and others held to the Septuagint. Only after the Catholic Canon was held did the Jews produce one in contradiction to the Christian one.

Do you know that 17 books out of 22 are marked with the Hezekiah seal?

The Sanhedrin is in control all the times and only scribes assigned by the Sanhedrin can make legal copies of the Scripture. Canonization were carried out all the times even till Jesus' time. The last 2 books at least were in Aramaic. Again, the Sanhedrin is in control. Even Josephus the Pharisee reckoned the 22 books in the Jewish Canon.

Sanhedrin is basically made up of Pharisees and Sadducees. Sadducees simply don't care as long as the first 5 books remain intact to them. They are more or less like politicians, while they reckoned that the religious aspect was in the hands of the Pharisees. (Read Josephus' works) The Sadducees are actually afraid of the Pharisees because the Pharisees own people. That is, the Jews in majority adapt the Pharisaic set concepts. At that time, the Jews have 3 sets of religious concepts, namely from Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes.

That's why it is the Pharisees (not Sadducees) in control of the Canon of the Scripture. They are in control of the Oral Torah. While the Jews in majority are using the 22 book Bible enforced by the Pharisees where the Sadducees having no influence on. To put it another way, there are almost no Jews are using a 5 book Bible to follow the Sadducees. They all basically are using the 22 book Scripture used by the Pharisees.

The rabbis are using the same Pharisaic Canon but may have arranged the books in a different way (in 24 books instead of 22). The Hellenistic Jews who don't read Hebrew are using the the Septuagint which is also compatible more to the 22 book Canon (there's basically no 5 book Bible back then). The Septuagint contains more than 22 books possibly for foreigners to have a better understanding of the Jewish religion. That's why more than 22 books are included but still the 22 books are the base of the OT Scripture which is the Jewish Canon put up by the Pharisees and supervised by the Great Sanhedrin.

In contrary, Judaism was basically gone after AD 70. Today's Judaism is revived almost after AD 250. They no longer adapt the strict Pharisaic concepts such as immortal souls and eternal hell and etc.
 
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Hawkins

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So you should know that back then the 22 book Canon is already there, and with the last 2 books canonized as late as around Jesus' time and in Aramaic as Aramaic became a more common spoken language!
 
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So you should know that back then the 22 book Canon is already there, and with the last 2 books canonized as late as around Jesus' time and in Aramaic as Aramaic became a more common spoken language!


Yes I do and you can see many of the early church fathers using the 22/24 book ideal to cover the contents of the OT for the church.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Do you know that 17 books out of 22 are marked with the Hezekiah seal?

The Sanhedrin is in control all the times and only scribes assigned by the Sanhedrin can make legal copies of the Scripture. Canonization were carried out all the times even till Jesus' time. The last 2 books at least were in Aramaic. Again, the Sanhedrin is in control. Even Josephus the Pharisee reckoned the 22 books in the Jewish Canon.

Sanhedrin is basically made up of Pharisees and Sadducees. Sadducees simply don't care as long as the first 5 books remain intact to them. They are more or less like politicians, while they reckoned that the religious aspect was in the hands of the Pharisees. (Read Josephus' works) The Sadducees are actually afraid of the Pharisees because the Pharisees own people. That is, the Jews in majority adapt the Pharisaic set concepts. At that time, the Jews have 3 sets of religious concepts, namely from Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes.

That's why it is the Pharisees (not Sadducees) in control of the Canon of the Scripture. They are in control of the Oral Torah. While the Jews in majority are using the 22 book Bible enforced by the Pharisees where the Sadducees having no influence on. To put it another way, there are almost no Jews are using a 5 book Bible to follow the Sadducees. They all basically are using the 22 book Scripture used by the Pharisees.

The rabbis are using the same Pharisaic Canon but may have arranged the books in a different way (in 24 books instead of 22). The Hellenistic Jews who don't read Hebrew are using the the Septuagint which is also compatible more to the 22 book Canon (there's basically no 5 book Bible back then). The Septuagint contains more than 22 books possibly for foreigners to have a better understanding of the Jewish religion. That's why more than 22 books are included but still the 22 books are the base of the OT Scripture which is the Jewish Canon put up by the Pharisees and supervised by the Great Sanhedrin.

In contrary, Judaism was basically gone after AD 70. Today's Judaism is revived almost after AD 250. They no longer adapt the strict Pharisaic concepts such as immortal souls and eternal hell and etc.
I know that the Sadducees weren't in power. My point is that there was a lot of disagreement in which books were canonical to the Jews.
Development of the Hebrew Bible canon - Wikipedia
 
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MyGivenNameIsKeith

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Awesome! Thanks for the quick response.

OK, I noticed you called St. John does that mean you're a practicing catholic or orthodox or is there anyone other denominations calling it St. John? I am use to calling him apostle John or in the book of John from the Holy bible.

Interesting, if my Holy bible is an abbreviated version....so what is traditional Christians or who are they? When I read up on Church history it leads back to Roman Catholicism, and then somewhere is the dark ages before Martin Luther?
I actually have a book tracing the Baptists from the time of John the Baptist through to the 1800's if you care for a view that the entire church didn't come from Catholicism.
 
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prodromos

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I actually have a book tracing the Baptists from the time of John the Baptist through to the 1800's if you care for a view that the entire church didn't come from Catholicism.
We don't need to read fiction to know the Church didn't come from Catholicism.
 
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I actually have a book tracing the Baptists from the time of John the Baptist through to the 1800's if you care for a view that the entire church didn't come from Catholicism.

The Trail of Blood is a work of fiction.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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