Faith and Works

The Apostles did works. Jesus did works.

You have to do works too. You can't sit in the corner claiming faith is all you need and then to hell with everyone else and their situations! One has to do as Jesus did.

Goatee said:

You can't sit in the corner claiming faith is all you need and then to hell with everyone else and their situations! One has to do as Jesus did.

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That is exactly what James said. Good on you.

shaheem white said:

James 2:14-20

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Your views?

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We know our own efforts do not wash us clean of sin.

Within context of what James speaks of is affirmed in the holy living Paul implores as he encourages believers to use their God given gifts:

Ephesians 4:

14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

shaheem white said:

James 2:14-20

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Your views?

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Brother now the short answer. What we do shows what we believe. If we are truly a new creation we will walk as such.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

shaheem white said:

James 2:14-20

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Your views?

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The works of James relate to the "law of liberty" which is compassion based. It calls to question your christianity if you do not help the poor if you are able to and if you show favouritism based on social status.

We need to do good works. Faith alone is futile if we don't help our brothers and sisters.

Jesus said:

Matthew 25:38-40
38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

Matthew 25:36-40
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

Works!

As 2Timothy 3:16+17 say All scripture is God breathed etc etc... so that the Man of God may be fully equipped for every good deed.
Good works are not an optional extra but a vital part of our Christian life.

shaheem white said:

James 2:14-20

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Your views?

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It's a great quote. The problem is many connect it to salvation or fruit inspection and strip it's message to something somewhat pharisaical.

It's neither about salvation nor is it about fruit inspection. It's about making a profit from faith in this life.

There are saved people, though, who don't make a profit with their faith in this life. They are saved nonetheless.

All of us are in favor of doing good works.

Goatee said:

We need to do good works. Faith alone is futile if we don't help our brothers and sisters.

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Hi Goatee, "faith alone" (sola fide) simply means that our salvation is based upon/merited by the works of "Christ alone" (solus Christus), His life, His death on the Cross, and His Resurrection, and not on anything that 'we' do.

So we don't "need" to do good works to be saved. Rather, we do good works because we already ARE saved (which is, in fact, a big part of the 'evidence' we have that we truly are who we say we are, a Christian ).

This is where we are helped so much by St. James, who distinguishes between two "KINDS" of faith in his Epistle's 2nd Chapter, one that saves and, frighteningly, one that does not.

Again, the things that "accompany" salvation are the RESULT of our being saved, NOT the cause

We who have been given new hearts and have been quickened to spiritual life by God, who He regenerated/caused to be born again, and who He made into wholly "new creatures" in His Son, become His workmanship/masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works (NOT because of them), which is why Calvin (and Luther), in echoing the teachings of St. James, have correctly stated that:


So we are justified (saved) by faith, but not by just any "kind" of faith, we are saved by a faith that is a "gift" from God, that believes in Christ and in the works that He did on our behalf, and trusts in His Father, who promised to save us on that basis alone.

Jesus Christ is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement for our sins.

In Christ,
David

Albion said:

All of us are in favor of doing good works.

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Hear hear to good works!

St_Worm2 said:

Hi Goatee, "faith alone" (sola fide) simply means that our salvation is based upon/merited by the works of "Christ alone" (solus Christus), His life, His death on the Cross, and His Resurrection, and not on anything that 'we' do.

So we don't "need" to do good works to be saved. Rather, we do good works because we already ARE saved (which is, in fact, a big part of the 'evidence' we have that we truly are who we say we are, a Christian ).

This is where we are helped so much by St. James, who distinguishes between two "KINDS" of faith in his Epistle's 2nd Chapter, one that saves and, frighteningly, one that does not.

1. "saving" faith, is the kind of faith that results in our choice and ability to do good works, in our choice and ability to live a holy (rather than sinful) lifestyle, in the 24/7 desire to please and obey God in everything we do/say/think (as well everything else that "ACCOMPANIES" salvation).

2. "dead" faith, on the other hand, is the kind of faith that results in nothing/bears no fruit. This is the "kind" of faith that demons and, sadly, many (most?) humans have, that results in nothing more than an empty and unverifiable "claim" of faith in Christ.
​

Again, the things that "accompany" salvation are the RESULT of our being saved, NOT the cause

We who have been given new hearts and have been quickened to spiritual life by God, who He regenerated/caused to be born again, and who He made into wholly "new creatures" in His Son, become His workmanship/masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works (NOT because of them), which is why Calvin (and Luther), in echoing the teachings of St. James, have correctly stated that:

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"​

So we are justified (saved) by faith, but not by just any "kind" of faith, we are saved by a faith that is a "gift" from God, that believes in Christ and in the works that He did on our behalf, and trusts in His Father, who promised to save us on that basis alone.

Jesus Christ is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement for our sins.

In Christ,
David

Ephesians 2
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we would walk in them.​

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I don't consider myself to be calvinist, but I agree with calvinistic understanding of predestination, irresistible grace and atonement.

At the same time, there seems to be a lot of calvinists who are either into lordship salvation or fruit inspection/changed life confirmation.

Christian doesn't have to have obvious works in order to be shaped by Holy Spirit according to the purpose God has for that Christian.

Paul talks about Body of Christ consisting of various parts with every part having it's own purpose and function. All Christians will be perfected upon resurrection, but in this life none is perfect while some can have purpose which demands that they don't have obvious works. That doesn't mean that they are not being prepared and lead through this life according to God's purpose for them. Even those Christians for who Paul says that are to be given to satan for destruction of flesh are such because God has specific purpose for them. As God says, His ways are higher that our ways.

Also, fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. But when people talk about fruits or works they usually don't talk about those fruits but about something physical, like evangelizing or witnessing for example. Well, someone can evangelize as a job, basically, while not being highly loving, peaceful or kind.

Someone can also give food to another not so much out of love or kindness, but for reward. I think work done with such motivation is probably hay at Bema seat.

HenryM said:

I don't consider myself to be calvinist, but I agree with calvinistic understanding of predestination, irresistible grace and atonement.

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Hi Henry, I believe that may make you unique , because I don't believe that I have met anyone who (for instance) holds to the "I" in TULIP, 'except' for a Calvinist.

HenryM said:

At the same time, there seems to be a lot of calvinists who are either into lordship salvation or fruit inspection/changed life confirmation.

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Calvinists normally are into those two things, of course, but I know FAR more Arminians who are. Also, why would someone, be they Calvinist or Arminian, need to hold to one or the other of the above? IOW, why not both at the same time??

HenryM said:

Christian doesn't have to have obvious works in order to be shaped by Holy Spirit according to the purpose God has for that Christian.

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So do you believe that God INTENDS to leave some of His elect wallowing in there sin for the rest of their lives, and that they can somehow please and glorify Him BY their worldliness and sinfulness, or if not, what is it that you are saying (quite frankly, if that's true, there are PLENTY of non-Christians who are worldly and sinful, so why would He want His own children to live like that?)

HenryM said:

Paul talks about Body of Christ consisting of various parts with every part having it's own purpose and function. All Christians will be perfected upon resurrection, but in this life none is perfect while some can have purpose which demands that they don't have obvious works.

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I am once again pretty confused. While I agree that all are gifted to be a certain part of the body of Christ, and that none will be perfected this side of Glory, what do these Christians look/act like who don't have obvious works, IOW, what are these UN-obvious works that God prepared beforehand for them to do, and how are they being "shaped" by these works by the HS?

HenryM said:

That doesn't mean that they are not being prepared and lead through this life according to God's purpose for them. Even those Christians for who Paul says that are to be given to satan for destruction of flesh are such because God has specific purpose for them. As God says, His ways are higher that our ways.

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Paul instructs us to turn wayward brothers and sisters over to Satan to be disciplined by him as a last resort. The hope in doing so is that once they are separated from the protection of the church and reality sets in (as they once again come face to face with the harshness of the world and its prince), that they will choose to repent of their sinful, obstinate behavior and return to fell Christian fellowship in the church once again.

HenryM said:

Also, fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. But when people talk about fruits or works they usually don't talk about those fruits but about something physical, like evangelizing or witnessing for example. Well, someone can evangelize as a job, basically, while not being highly loving, peaceful or kind.

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I've been a Christian for 31 years as both a Presbyterian and a member of the Evangelical Free Church, and I have friends and family in many other churches and denominations, but I don't recall ever hearing or reading about anyone saying/writing that the fruits of the Spirit are not considered to be among the works we do as a result of being saved, and very important works at that. If you don't mind me asking, who told you that?

HenryM said:

Someone can also give food to another not so much out of love or kindness, but for reward. I think work done with such motivation is probably hay at Bema seat.

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True enough .. Matthew 6:1-2.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - where does the Bible talk about this second "class" of Christians that you seem to be referring to, IOW, men and women who are born again, but are supposed to continue to look/act like the rest of the world? Thanks!

shaheem white said:

James 2:14-20

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Your views?

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Belief of a man IN GOD, is blessed by God, in giving the man faith.

Belief of a man IN GOD, whom such man submits to God, is blessed by God, in giving the man Fullness /Wholeness/ Faith-fullness of the whole (body, soul, spirit) of the man.

Once Faithfulness, is accomplished within a man, that faithfulness remains with the man forever.

Works of a faithful man, has to do with the man WHO;
anything whatsoever a faithful man does to glorify God.

So what glorifies God?
Love the Lord with all your wholeness, body, soul, spirit, heart? yes
Treat others as you would like others to treat you? yes
Speaking His Word in Truth, according to His wisdom and His Understanding? yes
Invite others to hear Gods truth? yes
Helping those who ask for a hand? yes
Listen to your hearts thoughts over your minds thoughts? yes
Keep in remembrance & Bless & Thank & Praise & Worship the Lord thy God? yes

What does not glorify God (but yet people do "in His name") ?
Decide for others, what they need and must do.
Decide for others, force them to hear.
Tolerate and encourage and enable others, in their standing against God.
Teach the power of Gods full giving of forgiveness & faithfulness, while teaching,
...Gods power, is minimal, and is dependent upon a man.

God Bless,
SBC

If one had faith and sat in a corner watching others who were in need and did nothing to help then I am sure it would be the same as if he didn't have any faith at all.

shaheem white said:

James 2:14-20

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Your views?

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In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). Where is the evidence? This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

We need to realize that James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

St_Worm2 said:

Calvinists normally are into those two things (lordship salvation and fruit inspection/changed life confirmation), of course, but I know FAR more Arminians who are. Also, why would someone, be they Calvinist or Arminian, need to hold to one or the other of the above? IOW, why not both at the same time?

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I think that the more one holds to lordship salvation and/or fruit inspection the more he or she is in danger to actually not believe the Gospel, and thus is not yet saved. Unless lordship and fruit views came after a person believed the Gospel.

Gospel says "Believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for your sins and rose on the third day." It doesn't say something like "Believe that Jesus Christ died for you sins and then go check your works to be sure you are saved." That sound a little like there's some unbelief there: "Oh yes, I believe in Jesus, but just for case, let me go checking and inspecting my works, so I can be sure. You never really know.'

It's ok to be aware of change, but to demand it to be obvious to me or to go around checking it, and somehow grading it, is another thing.

St_Worm2 said:

So do you believe that God INTENDS to leave some of His elect wallowing in there sin for the rest of their lives, and that they can somehow please and glorify Him BY their worldliness and sinfulness, or if not, what is it that you are saying

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Bible reveals examples of saved people who where quite sinful. I don't know if it's going to go into another debate, but Solomon is saved if we believe God's testimony, yet he turned from God in later part of his life. Thief on the cross was a sinner all his life. Paul talks about some examples too.

Now I don't think that's norm, far from it, but there is a place for those people since there is evidence of them. As far as them pleasing and glorifying God somehow, well all our works are like dirty rags anyway. None of us is going to be perfected on Earth, everybody sins, so why grumble if some are not as "good" as us? Aren't those going to lose their inheritance and rewards according to what they did here? Aren't we all going to stand before Bema seat? As I already wrote, aren't God's ways higher that our ways, so is there something that we can't really understand why is it so?

Again, Gospel is to "Believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for our sins and rose on the third day." Gospel is not about making sure that we are saved by checking and grading our works.

St_Worm2 said:

What do these Christians look/act like who don't have obvious works, IOW, what are these UN-obvious works that God prepared beforehand for them to do, and how are they being "shaped" by these works by the HS?

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I can turn that question or issue around. I think it's abomination before God to not honor 4th commandment. And that's just one example. But you mention 4th commandment and rocks are thrown for "keeping the law". Where are the rocks for fruit inspection? And by the way, I am in no way into "messianic judaism" or whatever the movement is called.

I hope we are not going to argue about one of the 10 commandments. I see arguing about not keeping 4th commandment the same as when orthodox and catholics are arguing about being ok to not honor 2nd commandment and instead fill churches with pictures and statues.

There are other questions you asked, but maybe this was enough as an explanation. If we continue I can get to other questions too.