Arminians, why are you Arminian?

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How, then, do you understand 1 Peter 1:2 (NIV):

who have been chosen [elected] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance?​


Oz

Sorry to butt in your question has good merit.

In the passage the use of chosen is qualified, by the second half of the passage.

1 Peter 1: 2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

God had foreknowledge through the santifaction of the Spirit and Grace toward us by the Blood of Christ.

The passage has no predetermined value on salvation
 
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OzSpen

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Because they could hear God, that doesn't mean they weren't spiritually separated from God, spiritually dead etc... - Because they were.

Can secular people today hear God, even though they are spiritually separated from Him?
 
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OzSpen

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The call is to anyone who hears and follow, but those that hear and follow belong to Him.

My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me.

Non believers are spiritually dead, without the Holy Spirit, they can not understand or see the things of God.

Natural man is a slave to sin with a heart of stone.

Faith and Repentance is grace, a gift from God

Andy,

You know that Calvinism teaches that not everyone can hear and follow God because they are not unconditionally elected, the atonement is not for them, and irresistible grace means that ALL cannot respond to the offer of salvation through grace.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Sorry to butt in your question has good merit.

In the passage the use of chosen is qualified, by the second half of the passage.

1 Peter 1: 2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

God had foreknowledge through the santifaction of the Spirit and Grace toward us by the Blood of Christ.

The passage has no predetermined value on salvation

now faith,

I agree with you. However, sanctification follows salvation as we become more like Jesus.

My emphasis was on, 'Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father'. People are elected to salvation, based on God's foreknowledge.

What is God's foreknowledge? 'In his omniscience God knows what the future holds both for individuals and for nations. He knows and sees everything in advance and his will is carried out in accord with his plans and purposes' (source).

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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The only way for what I think your implying to be true - is for Total Depravity to not be true.

However we are Totally Depraved, we can not come to God, because we have a stone of heart, and we are dead in our sins

God initiates salvation, salvation is from the Lord - Jonah 2:9

No one can see the kingdom unless he is born from above. John 3:3

Ephesians 2, faith and repentance is a gift from God

Romans 9 Salvation is not from works, or by any human effort, but by Gods will alone.

Andy,

I agree with the Scriptures you quoted.

However, would you please define your understanding of Total Depravity so that I may better comprehend what you are driving at?

Oz
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Mankind is dead in their sins, slave to sin, having a heart of flesh, under the kingdom of darkness/the evil one, enemy of God, they are unable to come to God in their natural state which is totally infected by sin.

God therefore must initiate salvation, changes heart of stone to a heart of flesh, grants repentance and faith (they are gifts from God) Now mankind repents believes they are saved and free!

To God be the glory
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Andy,

You know that Calvinism teaches that not everyone can hear and follow God because they are not unconditionally elected, the atonement is not for them, and irresistible grace means that ALL cannot respond to the offer of salvation through grace.

Oz

Yes I believe that all

But another way you could look at it:

All of mankind was going to perish and go to hell, God graciously from reasons only known to Him, decided to save an elect.

Just like God saved Noah and family, not the whole world, just like he choose Israel, not the whole world.

God is acting no different in the OT then in the NT, it's okay for him to Choose and pick in the OT, but not the NT?
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Can secular people today hear God, even though they are spiritually separated from Him?


No, the natural man without the Holy Spirit, can not see or understand the things of above. - you must be born again to understand the things above.John 3:3

Mathew 13:13-14
This is why I speak to them in parables:
‘Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’

As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him. Matthew 9:9

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him


Why did Jesus say this then?
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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How do you know if you are truly, part of the Elect?
If you do have a emotional experience, what conditions were the reason and can you trust your emotions?
Wouldn't it be far more reasonable to consider the Elect, those who have salvation already , but not excluding others from the gift of Salvation ?
How is it a person can determine who goes where ?
Why would God be so angry with the deeds of people, that He would turn his back on them once and for all?
He destroyed this World long ago over sin.

Quote: Wikipedia

In a religious context, sin is the act of transgression against divine law.[1] Sin can also be viewed as any thought or action that endangers the ideal relationship between an individual and their God or Gods; or as any diversion from the perceived ideal order for human living. "To sin" has been defined from a Greek concordance as "to miss the mark".[2]
Unquote.
What about sanctification?


Sanctification is the act or process of acquiring sanctity, of being made or becoming holy. ... To sanctify is to literally "set apart for particular use in a special purpose or work and to make holy or sacred."
Sanctification - Wikipedia
Wikipedia › wiki › Sanctification

Both are verbs, and both have a causative effect.

You have a choice on what color clothes you put on ,if you put on blue pants and a black coat ,can you determine whether you should do This?
Or possibly once you look in the mirror you put on a blue coat as well.
Did God choose the miss match ,or did God correct the miss match.
If God wanted the miss match , how do you know?
If God predestined you, can you choose to move from his will in a act of flesh?
Can you commit adultery and feel right?
What about Pagan Idols can you sit with the company of Baal, and remain holy?

What about people who take the mark of the Beast in end times?
Will they still be cleansed by the Blood ?
Since a Child inherits Blood from his Father , wouldn't Christ's Blood Be God's Blood?
Would God suffer so much to save those who were already Elect?
Would He go so far as to pour His Blood over those who worshiped the Beast?


1 Timothy 2: 1. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2. For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4. Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6. Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Ah but the Mark of the Beast, how does God's Word tell us God's will for those who take it.

Revelation 14: 9. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It seems that there is a conflict among Calvinist.
John MacArthur's teaching is that people will have to take the mark or none will be saved at the tribulation.

We see God's will in the scriptures....

But we see a prominent Calvinest who seems to put his own take into a apparition of the Bible.

Theologically, MacArthur is considered a Calvinist, and a strong proponent of expository preaching.[2] He has been acknowledged by Christianity Today as one of the most influential preachers of his time,[3] and was a frequent guest on Larry King Live as a representative of an evangelical Christian perspective.[4]

Wikipedia

1) God is our Creator, he gave laws to govern his creation, and because God gave laws, he will also be our Judge.

2) Mankind apart from Christ, as good as they are, is still filthy dirty rags to a Holy God.

3) Christ came to live a life, we couldn't so that we might have life.

4) If mankind is dead in their sins, slave to sin, having a heart of flesh, under the kingdom of darkness/the evil one, enemy of God, they are unable to come to God in their natural state.

5) God initiates salvation, changes heart of stone to a heart of flesh, grants repentance and faith (they are gifts from God) Now mankind repents believes they are saved and free!

I think you don't believe mankind is Totally Depraved, if you did, you would realize mankind is unable to come to Christ because of their natural state, which is Totally Corrupted by sin, rendering them unable to come to Christ, - God must do the initial work
 
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now faith

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1) God is our Creator, he gave laws to govern his creation, and because God gave laws, he will also be our Judge.

2) Mankind apart from Christ, as good as they are, is still filthy dirty rags to a Holy God.

3) Christ came to live a life, we couldn't so that we might have life.

4) If mankind is dead in their sins, slave to sin, having a heart of flesh, under the kingdom of darkness/the evil one, enemy of God, they are unable to come to God in their natural state.

5) God initiates salvation, changes heart of stone to a heart of flesh, grants repentance and faith (they are gifts from God) Now mankind repents believes they are saved and free!

I think you don't believe mankind is Totally Depraved, if you did, you would realize mankind is unable to come to Christ because of their natural state, which is Totally Corrupted by sin, rendering them unable to come to Christ, - God must do the initial work

I am not trying to debate , or break rules so I will carefully try to respond.

What you stated is not what Ephesians tells us.

Ephesians 2: 8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Truly this is the mercy of God , who would not have any perish.

John 3: 14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

God is no respector of persons.

Would God not have offered salvation to these people Paul is teaching about?

Romans 1: 19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

I suppose it comes down to this age old debate:

Is God's grace impossible to resist?
If it is impossible to resist , and still people walk away and suffer Hell, then why is it offered to all mankind?

Christ in his abounding love , Preached to the lost all the way back to the days of Noah !
He descended then raised in victory over death Hell, and the grave.

Ephesians 4: 7. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Our difference is so simple yet , we are miles apart on one thing.
Irresistible Grace ,and Predestination.

Under the new Covenant we have God providing a way for all mankind to be joined in the Body of Christ.

It is displeasure to God when people walk away, then He turns away from them forever.

But I do not believe there can be goodness in God's eyes for those lost in sin, but I do believe His love provides a way of adoption in Christ.

John 5: 20. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23. That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

He that believth on Him that sent me, clearly shows us free will.

I could provide many Scriptures that have a cause and effect meaning, but we agree to disagree and in the end it will not matter.
 
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now faith

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now faith,

I agree with you. However, sanctification follows salvation as we become more like Jesus.

My emphasis was on, 'Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father'. People are elected to salvation, based on God's foreknowledge.

What is God's foreknowledge? 'In his omniscience God knows what the future holds both for individuals and for nations. He knows and sees everything in advance and his will is carried out in accord with his plans and purposes' (source).

Oz

I agree that God has foreknowledge that Man would be corrupt.
As the Schripture states the Lamb slain from foundation of the world.

Revelation 13: 6. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9. If any man have an ear, let him hear.
This was our only predestination, the Grace of God offered up though Christ.
We try our best to reconcile God and His motive toward mankind.
Just as we cannot understand His omnipresent nature being outside of time.
Our creator is outside of his creation in His being,and outside of time that He created as well.
If He could lay aside His divinity and become flesh ,What is to not understand that during this Church Age He Has given all to Christ to judge?
 
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OzSpen

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Mankind is dead in their sins, slave to sin, having a heart of flesh, under the kingdom of darkness/the evil one, enemy of God, they are unable to come to God in their natural state which is totally infected by sin.

God therefore must initiate salvation, changes heart of stone to a heart of flesh, grants repentance and faith (they are gifts from God) Now mankind repents believes they are saved and free!

To God be the glory

Andy,

With that view, Joshua 24:15 (NIV) does not make sense:

'But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord"'.​

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Yes I believe that all

But another way you could look at it:

All of mankind was going to perish and go to hell, God graciously from reasons only known to Him, decided to save an elect.

Just like God saved Noah and family, not the whole world, just like he choose Israel, not the whole world.

God is acting no different in the OT then in the NT, it's okay for him to Choose and pick in the OT, but not the NT?

In Noah's day, there were reasons why all the world perished except Noah and his family:

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.​

The reasons for destruction of everyone but 8 people were:
  • how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth'
  • every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time;
  • The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled;
  • the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures ;
  • God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.
God saved Noah and family because of the corruption of the rest of the world. For God to choose 8 for salvation and the rest of humanity for damnation, sounds like God is demonstrating favouritism big time.

Is this verse not in your Bible? 'But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord' (Josh 24:15 NIV).

Or does choose not mean choice?

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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No, the natural man without the Holy Spirit, can not see or understand the things of above. - you must be born again to understand the things above.John 3:3

Andy,

That's not what Acts 16:30-31 (NIV) states:

30 He [Philippian jailer] then brought them [Paul & Silas] out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”​

Oz
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Andy,

That's not what Acts 16:30-31 (NIV) states:

30 He [Philippian jailer] then brought them [Paul & Silas] out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”​

Oz

Of course anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus shall be saved.

But who can believe?

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27

His sheep hear his voice, God is the one who grants faith and repentance
 
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Dave-W

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However we are Totally Depraved, we can not come to God, because we have a stone of heart, and we are dead in our sins
That is what Prevenient Grace is all about.
 
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JM

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That is what Prevenient Grace is all about.

Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Arminian theology, though it appeared earlier in Catholic theology. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done.
Prevenient grace - Wikipedia
 
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Dave-W

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Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Arminian theology, though it appeared earlier in Catholic theology. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done.
Correct. It allows us who could not otherwise choose Salvation to do so.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Arminian theology, though it appeared earlier in Catholic theology. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done.
Prevenient grace - Wikipedia

Can you explain this a little more to me JM
 
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