Is Observing the 7th day Sabbath a Requirement for Salvation?

[QUOTE="Bob S, post: 71812248, member: 382831"]That is one way to get out of something you may not know anything about. Even if I did start a thread I really wonder if you would step up to the plate.

I wonder why it is so very hard for people that belong to groups that have these "special" beliefs to see the truth of then simple plan of salvation. Why do they try to make it so difficult?[/QUOTE]

You complained that Dave-W was rude to you. Don't you think you were rude too?

Dave-W was correct. You really do not understand the covenants. You have a shallow understanding of them, but not a deep understanding of them. And, this is not the thread to devote to a deep understanding of them.

I understand the covenants pretty well, but I would think that a knowledgable Messianic Jew, which Dave-W certainly is, would have a far greater understanding of them than I do.

Start the thread. I, for one, look forward to learning from Dave-W.

Bob S said:

I use scripture when I need to make a Biblical point my friend. I do not see a lot of scripture in your post, but that does not tell me you are writing error. As to how much weight my post made with you, I cannot make a horse drink even if I lead it to water.


Please do not exert yourself on my part. I am sure you believe yourself superior to anything I might write, but I will continue to see if you are on the Beam.


Sorry friend I didn't quote 2Cor 3:3


Do you have dyslexia? Did I ever write that the ministry of death is written in our hearts? You know something brother, I was not the one who wrote that the 10 commandments were the ministry of death, you have Paul, God's ambassador to blame for that if it is wrong. I merely am quoting the word of God. You will have to take that up with God.

Idid? why would you tell me I ignored something. I didn't intend to use any other scripture to explain why God gave Israel the law. God's words to Moses were quite sufficient to make my point. If you don't like God's stand alone statement then I again suggest you take it up with Him


For the one who criticized me for not using scripture I would have to say that is the pot calling the kettle black. I never touched on the issue of Israel being exclusive. Where did that come from.


How about using some scripture to back up your claim.

Hmmm! I don't recall ever writing that 1Jn 3 is an exclusive thought to the New Testament.
You would need to write where the concept that John wrote is found in the OT. I am not a mid reader.


WHERES THE MEAT


You are free to believe what you like my friend, but so far you are batting a big 0 In helping me to find more truth. Why did Jesus clearly tell s He did add something new. Have you read where He said:“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Jn13:34

I have learned, in my 82 years of life, that you cannot please everyone all the time, especially those that are so critical of others. You can take that with a grain of salt as the expression goes or you can dwell on it for a spell. Either way it really does not matter to me. I do the best I can with the Holy Spirit as my guide and you have not, in your post, proven that anything I wrote was not according to scripture.

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Bob,

I hope, since you are 82, that you will not take advantage of my youth and inexperience.

For me, all things spiritual must have Biblical backing. As Paul says, all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. Therefore, when I study the Bible I use all parts of it to arrive at my beliefs. And because what Paul says about all scripture having its source in God it is not going to contradict itself. One passage of scripture is not going to annul or invalidate another passage. It all works together to create the truth of who God is, how He works with humanity, and to reveal the lies the devil tries so hard to get us to accept.

I never said you quoted IICorinthians 3:3. I said you commented on it. You did that after I quoted it and showed how Paul said the 10 commandments were being written in our hearts. Here are your words:

Clear or not you cannot miss verses 7-11 as telling us that they were the ministry of death and they are no longer binding on man. I really do not care if God wrote them on stone or in the book of the law they, according to Paul, are done away.

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Thus my question to you: Why are you asserting that God is writing a ministry of death in our hearts? That is something God will not, cannot, do for He is the author of life. Shouldn't the logical implications of what you said make you question as to whether or not the position you hold is true? If I ran across such a contradiction in my beliefs that is the first question I would ask myself.

Let's look at verses 4-6 for there is found the solution to the misunderstanding:

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

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Notice Paul says that he is not sufficient of himself to think that he should be confident in himself, but he has confidence in Jesus. It is Jesus that made him a minister of the new testament, or in other words, covenant, not to be a keeper of the letter of the law, but a keeper of the deeper meaning of the spirit of the law.

Look at the covenant the Isrealites made with God at Sinai.

Exodus 19: 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.

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Notice that the people said that they would do all God commanded. They gave no thought to the impossibility of keeping God's law on their hook. They thought they could do it on their own, and as a result they tried to keep the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law. They proved that over and over again in their rebellions against God's directions for to keep the spirit of the law is to be in harmony with God's will. Their promises were as ropes of sand, as ours are if we try to keep God's law on our own hook. This is why the Holy Spirit has to write the law of God in our hearts, and we can only obey God through faith in HIm.

Notice also that Paul ties verse 3 and verse 6 together by the reference to the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that is writing the 10 commandments in our heart, as per the promises of the OT from Ezekiel and Jeremiah. It is this that gives Paul confidence. His confidence is based, not upon himself, but upon God.

You say I have not addressed anything, that so far I have batted a big fat zero. You go on to quote as evidence of your assertion John 13:34. I find that interesting as I have already addressed this idea that love for God and our fellow man was not taught in the OT. I'll quote a few verses showing your misunderstanding.

Exodus 20: 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thingthat is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy Godam a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Leviticus 19: 18 ¶Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19: 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: Iam the Lord your God.

Deuteronomy 6: 5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 30: 6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Judges 23: 11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the Lord your God.

Nehemiah 1: 5 And said, I beseech thee, O Lord God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments:

Psalms 4:11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

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Now, with all I have quoted above how are Jesus' words to be taken the way you read them? They cannot be, for it is very clear that love for God and love for our fellow man is taught in the OT. Therefore his command is not new. It was only new to those who had not understood that love for God and their fellow man was the basis of all that God had taught through the OT prophets. It's just like you're new to me, but yet you've been around for 82 years. You're not new in any way, shape or form except being new to me as I had not known of your existence before seeing you here.

I have some very good info for you on why love for God and love for our fellow man was new to the Jews of Christ's day, if you're interested.

Doing is just as important as hearing/knowing.....


Mark 10:17-31King James Version (KJV)

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

reddogs said:

Doing is just as important as hearing/knowing.....

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I agree. Sanctification is just as good of news as justification is. Forgiveness without healing doesn't mean much. Sinning after conversion is just as destructive as it was before conversion. Jesus said, I came that they might have life, and have it more abundantly.

jerry kelso said:

bobs,

1. It is sad to think that people get wrapped up into wrong exegesis and because of lack of knowledge of gradual revelation and of what the cross brought and ended.
2. Paul said in 2 Corinthians 9:6-7 talks about reaping and sowing according to the purpose of the heart, not grudgingly or of NECESSITY.
SDA make the sabbath only on saturdays is couched under the idea of obeying the commandments when there motive is really out of necessity because they have to in order to be saved or to be blessed such as reaping and sowing.
3. Under the Mosaic law was a necessity to obey the commandments because they were under the blessing and cursing system under the Mosaic covenant. The church is not under this system and the 10 commandments were abolished at calvary 2 Corinthians 3:1-16.

4. They will use God creating and taking the sabbath. That was under the law of Moses of which gentiles were never under to begin with.
Paul said, let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday or of the new moon or of the sabbath day. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore, if ye be dead with Christ froim the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. Colossians 2:16-23l; Galatians 4:3,9. Men's doctrines have to do with doing by fleshly means and Christ is into being who we are in Christ to do commandments of his truth and Godly means and not fleshly means.

5. No matter how well meaning a SDA may be it is a false teaching that is fleshly and hidden behind obedience to God when it is really out of necessity and which is contrary to new testament doctrine.
I am glad you exposed the truth about Ellen White for many don't know and don't understand. Keep posting and God bless! Jerry Kelso

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jerry kelso said:

bobs,

1. It is sad to think that people get wrapped up into wrong exegesis and because of lack of knowledge of gradual revelation and of what the cross brought and ended.
2. Paul said in 2 Corinthians 9:6-7 talks about reaping and sowing according to the purpose of the heart, not grudgingly or of NECESSITY.
SDA make the sabbath only on saturdays is couched under the idea of obeying the commandments when there motive is really out of necessity because they have to in order to be saved or to be blessed such as reaping and sowing.
3. Under the Mosaic law was a necessity to obey the commandments because they were under the blessing and cursing system under the Mosaic covenant. The church is not under this system and the 10 commandments were abolished at calvary 2 Corinthians 3:1-16.

4. They will use God creating and taking the sabbath. That was under the law of Moses of which gentiles were never under to begin with.
Paul said, let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday or of the new moon or of the sabbath day. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore, if ye be dead with Christ froim the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. Colossians 2:16-23l; Galatians 4:3,9. Men's doctrines have to do with doing by fleshly means and Christ is into being who we are in Christ to do commandments of his truth and Godly means and not fleshly means.

5. No matter how well meaning a SDA may be it is a false teaching that is fleshly and hidden behind obedience to God when it is really out of necessity and which is contrary to new testament doctrine.
I am glad you exposed the truth about Ellen White for many don't know and don't understand. Keep posting and God bless! Jerry Kelso

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Great post ! I too was an SDA for many years. An ordained Elder and adult sabbath school teacher for years as well.

The real Good News found me, and I could not remain. Tradition, one foot in the old covenant the other in the new, and the denial of salvation, by faith , alone, substituting the two step process of faith plus works can drive one to madness. I never could do enough, never could do enough Bible studies, never could take on enough offices in the church. The sabbath found me not getting my mail from the mailbox, nor picking up the newspaper in the yard, no spending money at all, no tv, etc., etc., etc., etc. As Luther said, ¨ as to monkery, I was the monkiest monk that ever was a monk¨. Like Luther, I feared every day of being lost, because I knew my sanctification didn´t meet the standard EGW had set.

Praise God ! I learned the truth and the truth has set me free ! I Follow the law of Christ, and his yoke is light. I have the assurance of salvation by by faith in Christs substitutionary, life,death, and resurrection in my place.

Keep up the good work. Our SDA brothers and sisters need to know that there is a NEW covenant, and the old is totally and completely gone. They can release the burden and the worship of the sabbath, they can have the assurance of salvation and rest of Christ, every day, by faith in him, alone.

Clint Edwards said:

Great post ! I too was an SDA for many years. An ordained Elder and adult sabbath school teacher for years as well.

The real Good News found me, and I could not remain. Tradition, one foot in the old covenant the other in the new, and the denial of salvation, by faith , alone, substituting the two step process of faith plus works can drive one to madness. I never could do enough, never could do enough Bible studies, never could take on enough offices in the church. The sabbath found me not getting my mail from the mailbox, nor picking up the newspaper in the yard, no spending money at all, no tv, etc., etc., etc., etc. As Luther said, ¨ as to monkery, I was the monkiest monk that ever was a monk¨. Like Luther, I feared every day of being lost, because I knew my sanctification didn´t meet the standard EGW had set.

Praise God ! I learned the truth and the truth has set me free ! I Follow the law of Christ, and his yoke is light. I have the assurance of salvation by by faith in Christs substitutionary, life,death, and resurrection in my place.

Keep up the good work. Our SDA brothers and sisters need to know that there is a NEW covenant, and the old is totally and completely gone. They can release the burden and the worship of the sabbath, they can have the assurance of salvation and rest of Christ, every day, by faith in him, alone.

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Christ has fullfilled the law.
Amen!
When He is Trusted continually we get connected to our life support system[God]. Which will puts forth love. Another words our inside needs to be cleaned before what gets put forth.
If one puts forth love then they also fulfill the Law. As for the Sabbath: what does it mean by the sabath is made for man and not man for the Sabbath? Or if they enter His rest [sabbath] they will cease from their works?