Atheism is amoral

InterestedApologist said:

That’s a nice claim, but show me the evidence.

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If you want, I can make a poll? (Not sure where I could post such a thing, though)

InterestedApologist said:

That’s a nice claim, but show me the evidence.

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What evidence would you accept? Atheists throughout this thread have said what they believe and why and yet that is not enough?

InterestedApologist said:

Certainly atheists would argue they are moral. The question is why? Why bother at all?

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I think the answer is incredibly obvious - the atheist "bothers" because to identify and implement a code of morality promotes the well-being of humanity in general. It is beyond obvious that a sense of morality does not need to be grounded in belief in the existence of a god - we should not need to discuss this.

For some odd reason, some Christians appear to have uncritically adopted the notion that a moral sense must originate in a god. However, there is no underlying argument.

InterestedApologist said:

Furthermore, how can they claim to be moral, when morality is subjective?

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Who said morality was subjective? You appear to believe that something cannot be objective without God. I see no reason to believe such a thing.

InterestedApologist said:

Can you really back up your claim that all humans share some collective sense of values to create a universal moral framework? I think history would disagree with you.

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For the sake of argument, let's say I agree with you that there is not a strong consensus on what constitutes a moral framework. Even if that were so, there is every reason to believe that there are a set of principles, which if transformed into a moral code, would indeed be an entirely legitimate moral code. Perhaps humanity has yet to finally converge on such a set of principles. But that certainly does not mean, it does not exist.

There is every reason to believe that a human being, if not damaged by emotional abuse or inculcated with odd and destructive ideology, would recognize that certain principles are indeed an "objective" basis for morality - peace, justice, compassion, liberty etc.

On the matter of history: many people in positions of power are sociopaths or psychopaths - they are certainly not "normal". Yet, by virtue of being in such positions, they are able to wreak great damage.

HenryM said:

The more atheistic you are the more incapable you are to judge moral ideas, because there's no morality to be found within atheistic worldview.

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This didnt make sense to me. Just how are you defining Morals

InterestedApologist said:

That’s a nice claim, but show me the evidence.

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Have you honestly ever seen an atheist try to prove a negative? What would such an argument even look like?

Cearbhall said:

Have you honestly ever seen an atheist try to prove a negative? What would such an argument even look like?

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I've seen many atheists claim that God can't possibly exist.

InterestedApologist said:

No, you want these things. There are plenty of atheists who do not want or care about such things. You are way overreaching here.



You’re right, in the modern world it is the non-religious doing the forcing on the religious.



That depends on whether or not those actions violate the worldview someone is claiming to hold. The Christian murderer is in violation of their own belief system. The atheist murderer has simply rejected your moral system in favor of their own.

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Are you a mind reader as well?

InterestedApologist said:

That’s a nice claim, but show me the evidence.

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The evidence is all over this board.

HenryM said:

You are not explaining morality, but utility. Utility is amoral, void of moral, it's just something that's useful to you.

There are many atheists who want their family, home and community safe, but don't care at all about other 99% of the world, as long as it doesn't disturb their comfort. That's also not morality, that's utility.

But that's perfectly fine in atheistic universe. That's what I'm saying all along.

On the other hand, Word of God says:

• Love your neighbour like you love yourself
  
  
• If you only love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.
  
  
• Love those who hate you and bless them

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I can't help but notice that you keep ignoring what atheists on this thread are telling you in regards to how they find and define morality. You then go back and hoist up your straw man atheist and continue to argue that your straw man atheist is amoral. All you get for winning your argument is a pile of straw.

comana said:

I can't help but notice that you keep ignoring what atheists on this thread are telling you in regards to how they find and define morality. You then go back and hoist up your straw man atheist and continue to argue that your straw man atheist is amoral. All you get for winning your argument is a pile of straw.

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Well stated. He must ignore and pretend he knows the minds of others better than themselves, otherwise, his personal beliefs are threatened.

HenryM said:

Some floating unconscious matter is nothing, yes. Not absolutely nothing, but nothing in terms of
fullness of existence we are capable to experience. If when you die your conscious dissolves, ceast to exist, but something of you get to become some other matter and energy, by some chance, that's nothing. You just got back to nothingness. Mostly to some dust and other stuff for soil, which will further dissolve too.



As I wrote previously, you are not explaining morality, but utility. Some other atheist don't agree with you, and they are perfectly fine too. You are not better human then them, nor they are worse than you. You are both living out your own pleasure.

And that's in line with OP.



This is ridiculous argument.

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You are projecting.

Strathos said:

I've seen many atheists claim that God can't possibly exist.

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I've never seen this.

What I have seen are arguments that a God with X Y and Z contradictory qualities cannot logically exist. But thats a different claim.

HenryM said:

This is ridiculous argument.

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It's a fact. And it's in scripture.

HenryM said:

Have you even read OP? In second sentence I wrote: "That doesn't mean that individual atheist is amoral. But he or she is moral for reason outside of atheism, not because of atheism." And I kept repeating it.

I don't claim an atheist is amoral, but that atheistic worldview does not provide any morality.

God provides morality.

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Morals are simply an agreed upon social contract that describes what is right or wrong. Every individual's worldview will provide a subjective filter on that social contract.

What is the origin of this social contract? You believe it is derived from your god and I believe it is a natural result of human evolution and millennia of ever increasing social complexities of humanity.

It should be obvious by now that arguing the source of human morality never comes to a mutual conclusion.

HenryM said:

No it's not a fact, because that statement was not quantitative nor had comparisons in it. If "history is full of atrocities that have been committed by people thinking they are doing will of Abraham's, Isaac's and Jacob' God" then it's a fact that "history is much much fuller of atrocities that have been committed by satanists, worshippers of false gods and atheists."

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Comparing kill counts to try to claim some kind of moral high ground has always seemed rather morbid and pointless to me.