Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Bible Highlighter · Oct 19, 2017

ClementofA said:
Why are efforts wasted? If you had a child would it not matter to you if she went to hell first rather than directly to heaven?

It matters in the short run. Therefore it matters & what humans do matters.

The truth is never a "problem". It's to the glory of God. His love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. As in antibiblical Endless Damnationist dogmas (unending torments and endless annihilationism).

You've provided no evidence of that. All you see is the negative motive of fear. What you don't see is the powerful positive motivation of love in serving a truly loving God Who is worthy of being loved. Not the false caricature of God that has turned so many Christians & church goers in disgust away from God. That causes many millions of unbelievers to mock and never even consider the gospel (good news, not your horroric news). That's what your belief leads to. Love Omnipotent is not an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who so easily & eternally abandons the beings He created in His own image & likeness & suffered for.

Everyone is not saved now & you've failed to show anything illogical. What's illogical is why you deny Love Omnipotent will eventually save all. Is it because He is not powerful enough or because He doesn't want to?

Your fallen human reasoning, however, recalls where many people's hearts are at with regard to Jesus, i.e. only as a fire insurance policy. Or, in the case of others, an endless nonexistence policy. A question could be asked: are such people even saved?

If everyone thought like you, there would be no one arguing against the universal salvation position based on the Scriptures. Clearly all the apologists who argue against universalism using the Bible do not agree with your "logic". You alone are the only one i've ever heard use such an argument. Evidently with good reason.

Universal salvation is the teaching of God's Word. Therefore i proclaim it. Your fallen human reasonings on this subject don't matter, are illogical & irrelevant:

Isa.55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

7 Myths About Universalism

Sorry, I do not believe you are looking at things clearly within the Bible. It is obvious there is no Universalism. Again, things that are temporary are like a vapor in the scope of eternity. It is the fate of all who live Godly in Christ Jesus to suffer persecution. So avoiding suffering is not exactly always the Christian goal. But believe whatever you like. I am not interested in debating with you.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 19, 2017

pat34lee said:
Exactly. Cut off from the tribe and covenant.
Does it say he will go to hell?

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Uh.... breaking God's covenant is bad.

28 "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:28-29).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 19, 2017

he-man said:
View attachment 210453 View attachment 210454 View attachment 210455 View attachment 210456 Jason thank you for replying and regarding Rev 13:1 KJV it is correct to say "I", meaning John was standing there, however Romans 8:1 is a faulty translation and the words "who walk after the flesh, but after the spirit", are not included in any of the early manuscripts. Sorry but 1 John 5:7-8 are spurious and were not included in the early manuscripts.. The KJV is based on the TR and is based only on a few manuscripts, and in some cases has no manuscript support, whatever. A text closer to the autographs is available today in over 5,000 manuscripts. The Textus Receptus was used as the KJV basis, which was compiled with 12th-15th Century minuscule manuscripts. Erasmus included the 1 John 5:7-8 Comma, because he did not want his reputation ruined over a minor detail, thougn he notes in his Annotationes that he did not believe the Comma was genuine. Also it was not cited in the 4th Century Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). The Old Scofield Bible says that it "has no real authority and has been inserted" Pp. 1325. Indeed, the heart accounts for many things we sometimes miss. However, compare this text with your KJV. Revelation 17:4 the last verse should have read: full of idolatrous pollutions and the impurities of her lewdness. The manuscripts support ακαθαρτα (impure) yet the KJV uses the greek word supplied incorrectly by the TR as ακαθαπτητος, and is still used today by the KJV and the Tritiarian Bible Society. In Revelation 17:8 , the KJV reads in the last of the verse: "and yet is", και περ εστις also incorrect and imported from the TR. It is properly "and is to come", και περεστις

View attachment 210453 View attachment 210453 View attachment 210453 View attachment 210453 View attachment 210454 View attachment 210455 View attachment 210456

I provided the information I did not so as to debate. You see things the way you do for your own reasons. For me, it is a matter of faith. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. But sorry you wasted your time. I have 0% interest in looking at what you wrote back. I am confident in what I believe God's Word says. Please take no offense. I hope you understand.

May God bless you in all good that you do for Him.

ClementofA · Oct 19, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Sorry, I do not believe you are looking at things clearly within the Bible. It is obvious there is no Universalism.

Obviously not.

Jason0047 said:
Again, things that are temporary are like a vapor in the scope of eternity.

Obviously. So what?

Jason0047 said:
It is the fate of all who live Godly in Christ Jesus to suffer persecution. So avoiding suffering is not exactly always the Christian goal.

What does this have to do with universalism?

Jason0047 said:
But believe whatever you like. I am not interested in debating with you.

If everyone had your policy universalism would flourish much more than it already is.

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

ClementofA · Oct 20, 2017

Jason0047 said:
It is the fate of all who live Godly in Christ Jesus to suffer persecution. So avoiding suffering is not exactly always the Christian goal.

Suffering by posting anonymously behind a screen on an all Christian forum? About topics like freewill, TULIP, eternal security, etc. Does it matter? How many unbelievers is that leading to Jesus & saving from "hell" as you understand it?

Der Alte · Oct 20, 2017

ClementofA said:
...Begin quote...

...As i've pointed out before:
"In the multivolume THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (begun in German under the editorship of Gerhard Kittel) Hermann Sasse admits, “The concept of eternity [in aionios] is weakened” in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 (vol.1. p.209). He explains that these passages use “the eternity formulae” which he had previously explained as “the course of the world” perceived as “a series of smaller aiones” (p.203). Sasse also refers to the use of aionios in Philemon 15, which he feels “reminds us of the non-biblical usage” of this word, which he had earlier found to signify “lifelong” or “enduring” (p.208). The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

End

This is supposed to be a quote from the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament [TDNT] but note there are several short quotes, highlighted in blue, but the bulk is commentary by the site meister where it was copied from. I just happen to own the TDNT here is a more complete quote.

B. aion in the Sense of Prolonged Time or Eternity.
I. The Formulas “from Eternitv” and “to Eternity."
a. The concepts of time and eternity merge in the use with prepositions suggesting indefinite time (Lk. 1:70; Acts 3:21; Jn. 9:32: Jude 13). Sometimes the meaning is “from a remote time” (Lk. 1:70: Jn. 9:32. “never”), but sometimes there is a strong hint of eternity (Lk. 1:55: in. 6:51). This is especially true of the plural (Mt. 6:13; Lk. 1:33; Rom. 1:25: Heb. 13:8; Jude 25: cf. also with a past reference I Cor. 2.7: Col. 1:26: Eph. 3:11). The double formula “for ever and ever” (Heb. 1:8), especially in the plural (in Paul and Revelation: cf. also Heb.-13:21: 1 Pet. 4:11), is designed to stress the concept of eternity, as are constructions like that in Eph. 3:21 (“to all generations for ever and ever”).
b. The usage corresponds to that or the LXX (cf. Am. 9:11: Is. 45:17: Ps. 45:6), the only difference being intensification in the NT.
2. The Eternity of God.
a. aion means eternity in the full sense when linked with God (Rom. 16:26; 1 Tim. 1:17: cf. Jer. 10:10).
b. In the OT this means first that God always was (Gen. 21:23) and will be (Dt. 5:23), in contrast to us mortals. By the time of Is. 40:28 this comes to mean that God is eternal. the “First and Last.” whose being is “from eternity to eternity” (Ps 90:2).
Eternity is unending time. but in later Judaism it is sometimes set in antithesis to time.
The NT took over the Jewish formulas but extended eternity to Christ (Heb. 1:10ff.:
Rev. 1:17-18; 2:8). Here again eternity could be seen as the opposite of cosmic time.
God’s being and acts being put in terms of pre- and post- (1Cor. 2:7: Col. 1:26: Eph.
3:9: Jn. 17:24: 1 Pet. 1:20).
c. aion in the Sense of the Time of the World.
1. aiön as the Time of the World; the End of the aion. In the plural the sense of aion is that of a stretch of time. In particular the word is used for the duration of the world. Thus the same term can signify both God’s eternity and the world’s duration (cf. the Parsee word zrvan). The doctrine of creation—an absolute beginning --_underlay the distinction in use. aion for time of the world occurs ia the NT in the expression “end of the aeon” (Mt. 13:39 etc.). The plural in Heb. 9:26 and 1 Cor. 10:11 (aeons) represents no essential change; it merely indicates that the one aion is made up of many smaller aions though as yet the word is not used for a particular period.
2. aion as World. From “time of the world” aion easily cane to mean the “world” itself (cf. Mt. 13:22; 1 Cor. 7:33) with an equation of cosmos and aeon (1 Cor. 1:20:
2:6: 3:19). The plural can mean “worlds” along the same lines (Heb. 1:2: 11:3).
3. The Present and Future aiön.
a. If aion means duration of the world.” and the plural occurs. the idea is obvious that eternity embraces a succession or recurrence of aeons (cf. Eccl. 1:9-10—though here the aeons are periods of the world, and the biblical concept of creation, and hence of the uniqueness of this aeon, ruled out the idea of an unending series).
b. Instead of recurrence the antithesis of time and eternity combined with the thought of plural aeons to produce the belief in a new and future aeon (or cosmos or kingdom) which will succeed this one but will be completely different from it. For the present and future aeons in the NT cf. Mk. 10:30; Lk. 16:i; Rom. 12:2: 1 Cor. 1:20; Gal. 1:4; 1 Tim. 6:17; Eph. 1:21: Heb. 6:5 (and with kairos instead of aeon, Jn. 8:23 etc.).
c. The NT took over this concept from Jewish apocalyptic. e.g.. Ethiopian Enoch. Similar ideas occur in rabbinic writings and there is hope of a future age in Vergil.
In the NT. however, the new aeon is not just future. Believers are already redeemed from this aeon (Gal. 1:4) and taste the powers of the future aeon (Heb. 6:5) which Christ has initiated with his resurrection. Pp.31-32
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, 1985

Der Alte · Oct 20, 2017

ClementofA said:
. . .
(3) I wonder how "corpses" (v.24) would survive in a lake of fire. Or worms (v.24) . OTOH worms could survive in a millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna. As could "corpses" survive that were in parts of the garbage dump that were not completely consumed by fire. . . .

I have corrected this before but this false information continues to be posted. There was no, zero, none "millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna!"

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

Archaeological research has found a valley near Jerusalem which was used as a trash dump but it was not the valley of Gehinnom.
How would corpses and worms survive in a lake of fire? How did the bush burn without being consumed in Exodus 3? How did the three Hebrew slaves, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, survive in the furnace heated 7 times hotter than normal in Daniel 3?

he-man · Oct 20, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I provided the information I did not so as to debate. You see things the way you do for your own reasons. For me, it is a matter of faith. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

Thanks for the reply and for thinking that hearing the word is what this is all about, praise God always and that is why I never am wasting my time talking about His word as a seer and doer. However, if you are truly honest, you would read what I wrote and check to see if I am speaking God's language as a child of God. Don't you know there are a 1000 Major manuscripts in existence today that we're not available at the time the KJV was translated? I grew up on the KJV and still use it today as a reference. I began to notice some of the errors however, and I knew I had to start checking all the sources. I must admit that some believers have different callings; some are ditch diggers, some are professional jerks, some are money mongers. I started as a ditch diggers and then worked in the printing business. I then trained as an optician and looked at the printed word of God. I learned that I was not good enough to serve God, and that was when I knew that no one else was good enough either. I prayed and read the KJV every day and things began to fall into place. I worked for Scripps Institute of Oceanography and the University of California, going to college nights. My professor was Hebrew and we rode to class together. Since my wife's mother and grandparents were Greek, we progressed rapidly. I promised my wife if I got a call from anyone where I had placed my application for employment, I would not turn it down. The very next day I received a call from a past employer, so we packed everything and moved back to Missouri and I began my calling to serve God full time. I understand Greek from the old school of Koine, and I am happy to say that God directs my translations daily.
Anyway, if I can ever be of any help please let me know and never forget that God is always with you even if I am not here.
A brother in Christ!

Bible Highlighter · Oct 20, 2017

he-man said:
Thanks for the reply and for thinking that hearing the word is what this is all about, praise God always and that is why I never am wasting my time talking about His word as a seer and doer. However, if you are truly honest, you would read what I wrote and check to see if I am speaking God's language as a child of God. Don't you know there are a 1000 Major manuscripts in existence today that we're not available at the time the KJV was translated? I grew up on the KJV and still use it today as a reference. I began to notice some of the errors however, and I knew I had to start checking all the sources. I must admit that some believers have different callings; some are ditch diggers, some are professional jerks, some are money mongers. I started as a ditch diggers and then worked in the printing business. I then trained as an optician and looked at the printed word of God. I learned that I was not good enough to serve God, and that was when I knew that no one else was good enough either. I prayed and read the KJV every day and things began to fall into place. I worked for Scripps Institute of Oceanography and the University of California, going to college nights. My professor was Hebrew and we rode to class together. Since my wife's mother and grandparents were Greek, we progressed rapidly. I promised my wife if I got a call from anyone where I had placed my application for employment, I would not turn it down. The very next day I received a call from a past employer, so we packed everything and moved back to Missouri and I began my calling to serve God full time. I understand Greek from the old school of Koine, and I am happy to say that God directs my translations daily.
Anyway, if I can ever be of any help please let me know and never forget that God is always with you even if I am not here.
A brother in Christ!

This is not my first rodeo on this debate. I have heard your side of the argument by many others and it does not hold water. I have debated this topic too many times to count, until one day God said to my heart not to debate this topic anymore with anyone. I believe God can use Modern Translations even though they are corrupted. In fact, I even use them myself (to update the 1600’s English in the KJV) but the Modern Translations are not my final word of authority like the KJV, though.

Also, what appeared to be supposed contradictions in the KJV, turned out later in giving me a deeper understanding and trust of God’s Word. These discoveries in the KJV are truly amazing and they have blown my mind. God rewarded me for trusting in His Word.

he-man · Oct 20, 2017

Jason0047 said:
This is not my first rodeo on this debate. I have heard your side of the argument by many others and it does not hold water. I have debated this topic too many times to count, until one day God said to my heart not to debate this topic anymore with anyone. I believe God can use Modern Translations even though they are corrupted. In fact, I even use them myself (to update the 1600’s English in the KJV) but the Modern Translations are not my final word of authority like the KJV, though.

Also, what appeared to be supposed contradictions in the KJV, turned out later in giving me a deeper understanding and trust of God’s Word. There are truly amazing and they have blown my mind. God rewarded me for trusting in His Word.

Thanks again. Psalms 19:7-8 and I always remember Psalms 19:11-12 and finally my heart goes out for you.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 20, 2017

he-man said:
Thanks again. Psalms 19:7-8 and I always remember Psalms 19:11-12

While there are other applications for these passages, seeing I spoken at length for many years against Eternal Security, I believe Psalms 19:7-8 and Psalms 19:11 speaks against this false doctrine.

As for Psalms 19:12:
Well, I believe Psalms 19:12 talks about hidden faults (i.e. sins not unto spiritual death).
These would be things like going over the speed limit a little or not cleaning the house yesterday like one knew they should have, etc.

The official mention of the "sins not unto death" are confessed sin (like confession of lying, and hating, etc.) in context of 1 John 5:16-17. But I believe there are other "sins not unto death" like hidden or secret faults like Psalms 19:12 and not being baptized in this life (See 1 Peter 3:21; Compare "filth of the flesh" in 1 Peter 3:21 with "filthiness of the flesh" in 2 Corinthians 7:1).

You said:
and finally my heart goes out for you.

Thank you;
It is my sincere prayer that God deepens your love for Him and others (including your enemies).

May you blessed in all good you do for God.

ClementofA · Oct 20, 2017

Der Alter said:
This is supposed to be a quote from the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament [TDNT] but note there are several short quotes, highlighted in blue, but the bulk is commentary by the site meister where it was copied from. I just happen to own the TDNT here is a more complete quote.

It isn't supposed to be a quote from TDNT. It is obviously a quote from the website which includes quotes from TDNT.

Your allegedly "more complete quote" is not from the same source, but i'm guessing a rewritten & or abridged version of TDNT. Note the difference in page numbers from what i quoted (p.203, 208-209) & the page numbers of your quote (p.31-32).

[snip]

Der Alter said:
In the NT. however, the new aeon is not just future. Believers are already redeemed from this aeon (Gal. 1:4) and taste the powers of the future aeon (Heb. 6:5) which Christ has initiated with his resurrection. Pp.31-32
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, 1985

A hardcover TDNT Vol.1 i'm looking at has the aion article on pages 197-208 [aionios, pgs 208-9], not pages 31-32 (as above). It says the first printing was in 1964 & reprinted in 2006.

--------------------------

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

ClementofA · Oct 20, 2017

Der Alter said:
There was no, zero, none "millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna!"

Obviously not. The millennium is future, not past. My post said nothing about what Gehenna was in the past. But what it will be in the future is described in Isaiah 66, which speaks of a place of corpses, worms & fire. Whether that will be a place of other types of garbage is AFAIK unknown. If you prefer to call it a graveyard or the like is fine with me as it is not pertinent to my point.

BTW, FWIW, here is what endless annihilationist Edward Fudge wrote (in The Fire That Consumes, p.118) on the subject of what Gehenna was, in the past:

The Fire That Consumes

--------------

Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism:
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalist

Der Alte · Oct 20, 2017

ClementofA said:
It isn't supposed to be a quote from TDNT. It is obviously a quote from the website which includes quotes from TDNT.

A quote from a source is not "a few words"-commentary-"a few words"-commentary-"a few words"-commentary. I quoted complete sections. Your source did not mention any of the references to eternal/eternity. Deliberately trying to conceal the fact that TDNT also defines aion as eternity and aionios as eternal.

Your allegedly "more complete quote" is not from the same source, but i'm guessing a rewritten & or abridged version of TDNT. Note the difference in page numbers from what i quoted (p.203, 208-209) & the page numbers of your quote (p.31-32).
A hardcover TDNT Vol.1 i'm looking at has the aion article on pages 197-208 [aionios, pgs 208-9], not pages 31-32 (as above). It says the first printing was in 1964 & reprinted in 2006.

Yes I quoted the 1985 abridged edition TDNT which was abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley who translated the original.

ClementofA · Oct 20, 2017

Der Alter said:
Your source did not mention any of the references to eternal/eternity. Deliberately trying to conceal the fact that TDNT also defines aion as eternity and aionios as eternal.

If that is implying deliberate deception, you should probably leave the judging of men's hearts & motives to One Who is Omniscient.

Also, if you had read the article, it should be evident why pertinent portions were quoted:

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

Der Alte · Oct 21, 2017

ClementofA said:
If that is implying deliberate deception, you should probably leave the judging of men's hearts & motives to One Who is Omniscient.
Also, if you had read the article, it should be evident why pertinent portions were quoted:
The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

When I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud it has been frequently implied and suggested that I was deliberately deceptive. Pot-kettle. Who maintains this website and what, if any, are their qualifications in Biblical Greek? Here is the "quote" in question. Note only the blue highlights are from TDNT the rest is commentary by the site meister.

In the multivolume THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (begun in German under the editorship of Gerhard Kittel) Hermann Sasse admits, “The concept of eternity [in aionios] is weakened” in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 (vol.1. p.209). He explains that these passages use “the eternity formulae” which he had previously explained as “the course of the world” perceived as “a series of smaller aiones” (p.203). Sasse also refers to the use of aionios in Philemon 15, which he feels “reminds us of the non-biblical usage” of this word, which he had earlier found to signify “lifelong” or “enduring” (p.208).
The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

Der Alte · Oct 21, 2017

ClementofA said:
Obviously not. The millennium is future, not past. My post said nothing about what Gehenna was in the past. But what it will be in the future is described in Isaiah 66, which speaks of a place of corpses, worms & fire. Whether that will be a place of other types of garbage is AFAIK unknown. If you prefer to call it a graveyard or the like is fine with me as it is not pertinent to my point.
BTW, FWIW, here is what endless annihilationist Edward Fudge wrote (in The Fire That Consumes, p.118) on the subject of what Gehenna was, in the past:
--------------

Fudge is irrelevant. I have provided evidence from more than one source that there is no archaeological or recorded evidence that Gehenna was ever a garbage dump or a place where bodies were burned etc. Where does Isaiah identify "a place of corpses, worms & fire" as Gehenna in the future?

ClementofA · Oct 21, 2017

Der Alter said:
When I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud it has been frequently implied and suggested that I was deliberately deceptive. Pot-kettle.

The time to bring that up should have been when it occurred so your errant impressions could be corrected, as i believe they were already.

ClementofA · Oct 21, 2017

Der Alter said:
Fudge is irrelevant. I have provided evidence from more than one source that there is no archaeological or recorded evidence that Gehenna was ever a garbage dump or a place where bodies were burned etc. Where does Isaiah identify "a place of corpses, worms & fire" as Gehenna in the future?

Just saying a person is irrelevant doesn't discredit their comments which you failed to address. And why should i care one way or the other? Isn't it a trivial point? As for Isaiah 66 can you prove it isn't such a reference? Compare passages where Jesus speaks of Gehenna. This appears to be another trivial point in the big picture of things.

Der Alte · Oct 21, 2017

ClementofA said:
The time to bring that up should have been when it occurred so your errant impressions could be corrected, as i believe they were already.

I did. You were one of those who implied/suggested that my quotes were deliberately deceptive and guess what you did what you accused me of. That is why I said pot-kettle. Anyone reading your quote/link, who had little or no knowledge of Greek, would believe that TDNT did not say that aion means eternal and aionios means eternal when they in fact did. My link was to the complete Jewish Encyclopedia not quotes of bits and pieces as your's was.

ClementofA said:
Just saying a person is irrelevant doesn't discredit their comments which you failed to address. And why should i care one way or the other? Isn't it a trivial point? As for Isaiah 66 can you prove it isn't such a reference? Compare passages where Jesus speaks of Gehenna.

Just posting a name and a link does not make that person relevant. If you think something a scholar says is relevant quote some of it and say how it is relevant. Posting links is not discussion. This is a discussion forum after all not dueling links. [cue banjos]

Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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