End Time Deceptions

keras said:

if you are unable/incapable of giving up the rapture lie,

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To quote President Ronald Reagan, "there you go again". You just can't seem to control your throwing accusations around. While the pre-trib position may be incorrect (I don't think it is), that doesn't mean it is a lie. A lie is promoting a falsehood, knowing full well it is false. It is malicious in its intent. You do not have the ability to know what is in folk's hearts to make such an accusation. One can promote a incorrect idea, believing it to be true, but that doesn't make them a liar or the idea a lie. It just makes them wrong.

You promote yourself as someone who has a grasp on bible doctrine, but you are treading on thin ice in how you live it out. You are precariously borderline espousing your particular interpretation of scripture as equal with scripture itself. Your positions on these things carry no more weight than anyone else's. You have every right to disagree and debate the position, but you do not have the right to accuse anyone of lying or promoting a lie unless you know for certain the person knows that what they are saying is not true and they are maliciously trying to mislead others. In such a case, you better have the facts to back it up or you would be guilty of violating the 9th commandment. Dangerous ground, my friend.

jgr said:

Joshua 21:43
And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

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Really?

Genesis 15:18 (NKJV Strong's,) On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—

Now, please show us where Israel possessed all the land from the Nile river to the Euphrates river in Babylon. Even under King Solomon, that didn't happen.

Quasar92 said:

And when, may I ask, did Jesus return in His second coming, in 70 A.D., as He allides to in Mt5.24:30-31?
Quasar92

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Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Who is/are "ye"?

Copperhead said:

Really?

Genesis 15:18 (NKJV Strong's,) On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—

Now, please show us where Israel possessed all the land from the Nile river to the Euphrates river in Babylon. Even under King Solomon, that didn't happen. The Lord gave them all that land, as per the promise, but they never possessed all of it.

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So Joshua, and God who inspired him to write, are wrong?

Every map of biblical archaeology, both gentile and Jewish, outlines what the maximum extent of the land that Israel ever possessed. And none of them show that Israel occupied every bit of it. Gave them and possessed it does not mean they occupied all of it as a nation. They never "owned" the land. The land belongs to God. He allowed Israel to live in it as a promise to Abraham, but under conditions of obedience.

Copperhead said:

Every map of biblical archaeology, both gentile and Jewish, outlines what the maximum extent of the land that Israel ever possessed. And none of them show that Israel occupied every bit of it. Gave them and possessed it does not mean they occupied all of it as a nation. They never "owned" the land. The land belongs to God. He allowed Israel to live in it as a promise to Abraham, but under conditions of obedience.

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Joshua and God evidently disagree with you.

The Church, that is the body of Christ will be bleed out and the bride will be presented to the bridegroom battered and bloodied. World wide Calvary awaits the bride of Christ, who will wash her robe by the blood of the Lamb.

The presence of the Church, the Elected will stay the course until the brilliant coming of the Lord, climax to the end and the destruction of humanity and the old earth and the old heaven.

The Elect will be raptured by Angels, but not to heaven, but to a safe place on earth. These Elect will hide in the chambers the Angels provide them until the indignation is passed. When they step out of their chambers, the earth will be a total wreck pitch blackquaking continuouslyand the smell of death everywhere. Least God cut those days short no flesh will be left alive, except for the sake of the Elect, he hastens his brilliant coming. Joel 2:3 portrays the earth as the garden of Eden before they went into their chambers, and yet behind them, when they exited their chambers tge earth is a totally destroyed, desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

Then the beast and his armies marched up over the breadth of the earth where tge Elect were raptured to then then they encircled the camp of the saints and the city having been beloved. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev 20:9)

This fire that comes down to devour the beast and his armies is the brilliant coming of the Lord. The camp of the Elect who had hid in their chambers until the indignation passed, is his beloved City, that is a spritual City made of the souls of the Elect, the remnant of the Church, both Jews and Gentiles.

Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
(Isaiah 26:20)

Then what is Yeshua preparing?

John 14:2-3 (LITV) In My Father's house are many dwelling places. But if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you! 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.

One needs to look at the verses around that one you posted from Isaiah 26. It speaks of both living and resurrected dead.

Isaiah 26:19-21 (LITV) Your dead ones shall live, my dead body, they shall rise up. Awake and sing, dust dwellers; for the dew of lights is your dew; and the earth shall cast out departed spirits. 20 Come, My people, go in your rooms and shut your doors behind you. Hide for a little moment, until the fury passes. 21 For, behold, Jehovah comes out of His place to visit his iniquity on those dwelling on the earth. The earth shall also reveal her blood, and shall no more cover over her slain ones.

The beast will probably summon fire at the coming 3rd Temple to burn the offerings in front of people that mankind may believe this strong delusion :

Rev 13:13 He did astounding miracles, even making fire flash down to earth from the sky while everyone was watching.

He might also cure people, the blind, the lame as Jesus did. God would allow it:

2 Thes 2:12 in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.…

jgr said:

So Joshua, and God who inspired him to write, are wrong?

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God did make it possible for the ancient Israelites to occupy all the area given to Abraham, but they failed to take it. Judges 1:19-21, 29-34 documents their failure.

But the Israelites of God, now every born again Christian from every race, nation and language, WILL be the ones to fulfil God's promise to the Patriarchs, of their descendants; by faith not by ethnicity, THEY, that is we Christians, will be the righteous nation that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43, Isaiah 62:1-5

Copperhead said:

To quote President Ronald Reagan, "there you go again". You just can't seem to control your throwing accusations around. While the pre-trib position may be incorrect (I don't think it is), that doesn't mean it is a lie. A lie is promoting a falsehood, knowing full well it is false. It is malicious in its intent. You do not have the ability to know what is in folk's hearts to make such an accusation. One can promote a incorrect idea, believing it to be true, but that doesn't make them a liar or the idea a lie. It just makes them wrong.

You promote yourself as someone who has a grasp on bible doctrine, but you are treading on thin ice in how you live it out. You are precariously borderline espousing your particular interpretation of scripture as equal with scripture itself. Your positions on these things carry no more weight than anyone else's. You have every right to disagree and debate the position, but you do not have the right to accuse anyone of lying or promoting a lie unless you know for certain the person knows that what they are saying is not true and they are maliciously trying to mislead others. In such a case, you better have the facts to back it up or you would be guilty of violating the 9th commandment. Dangerous ground, my friend.

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OK, I'm sorry to upset anyone. You are right, in that a person who says something without being aware it is untrue, is not a liar, just deceived.

The controversial issue of a rapture to heaven and related to it; the issue of who is the Israel of God, are something that will only be finally resolved as the end times pan out.
But as I can claim a fair degree of knowledge regarding what Jesus and all the Bible prophets have told us, having written over 500 articles, in 5 books on that subject. So I promote what the Bible actually says and when it conflicts with what people believe, very often; just as you have done here, it results in a personal warning and a character denigration, rather than a rebuttal using Biblical proofs of your stance.

Definition of a prophet: One who utters a message concerning future events, a spokesman or advocate for a cause.
Is that not what a teacher and a pastor does?

keras said:

Definition of a prophet: One who utters a message concerning future events, a spokesman or advocate for a cause.
Is that not what a teacher and a pastor does?

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To some degree, but the more literal idea of a prophet is one who speaks for God, and that is far different than expositional teaching on scripture. One needs to see how the word prophet was used early on in scripture to better ascertain what is meant by the term in scripture, like Numbers 12 and Deuteronomy 13. Those passages don't really convey the same idea as what a teacher in a bible study is teaching or the average pastor from a pulpit.

Teaching on future events from scripture is not quite the same as a prophet. We all are not infallible, and we all interpret passages differently. And consequently, we do not all agree all the time. We work thru those more difficult passages with respect and love. No doubt, the concept of the rapture and almost all things about future events has been very controversial over the years. And honest men with a deep love for the Lord have come down on all sides of the issues.

Some see the idea of a early removal of the righteous as some sort of escapism or wishful thinking. Or that if it doesn't happen, they feel that many who hold to it will lose their faith. If their faith is grounded in Yeshua, and they are in fellowship with Him, that seems pretty remote of an idea. While others who hold to the idea see it as more of a motivation to keep alert and stay in right relationship with the Lord, since they cannot be sure when it will occur. So the early rapture idea does have positive motivations. For those that are not motivated to right fellowship with the Lord, nothing is going to help them. Everything begins with Yeshua and our relationship with Him.

Shalom, Brother.

keras said:

God did make it possible for the ancient Israelites to occupy all the area given to Abraham, but they failed to take it. Judges 1:19-21, 29-34 documents their failure.

But the Israelites of God, now every born again Christian from every race, nation and language, WILL be the ones to fulfil God's promise to the Patriarchs, of their descendants; by faith not by ethnicity, TEY, that is we Christians, will be the righteous nation that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43, Isaiah 62:1-5

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Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Doesn't get any more indisputable than that.

Whatever failures the Israelites experienced or were guilty of subsequently in no way invalidated any of God's promises, and their complete fulfillment, as Joshua records.

Copperhead said:

Teaching on future events from scripture is not quite the same as a prophet. We all are not infallible, and we all interpret passages differently. And consequently, we do not all agree all the time. We work thru those more difficult passages with respect and love. No doubt, the concept of the rapture and almost all things about future events has been very controversial over the years. And honest men with a deep love for the Lord have come down on all sides of the issues.

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But quoting what the Prophetic Word actually says, is right. Most are clear, factual statements.
One problem is that most people simply have not studied all the prophesies. If they do, they tend to gloss over them, assign them to ancient Israel, spiritualize them or just treat them as allegories.
But the real problem in understanding is that God does not want His plans to be general knowledge:

Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak? To whom give warning, who will hear me? The peoples ears are blocked, they are incapable of listening, they treat the Lord’s Word as a reproach.

Psalm 74:9 We cannot see any sign, we have no prophets now.

Isaiah 29:10-14 For you the whole vision is nothing but words in a sealed book.

Isaiah 6:9b-10 However hard you look and listen, you will never perceive.

Isaiah 48:8 You don’t understand, because your ears were stopped long ago.

Psalm 94:5 Understand, O dullest of people; when will you be wise?

Deuteronomy 32:28-29 My people are a nation devoid of understanding. If only they had the wisdom to discern what their end will be!

Daniel 12:9-10 None of the wicked will understand, only a few of the wise leaders of My people.

Amos 8:11-13 People will search for the truth, but will not find it.

Isaiah 48:6 You have heard what I have said, consider it well, it is the truth. From now on I show you new things, hidden things, that you did not know before.

Matthew 11:25 Father, You have hidden Your secrets from the learned and revealed them to the simple.[the uneducated]