True meaning of the Immaculate Conception as not taught by the RCC

SBC · Oct 19, 2017

PeaceByJesus said:
The esteemed Anglican scholar J.N.D. Kelly found:

"he [Augustine] did not hold (as has sometimes been alleged) that she [Mary] was born exempt from all taint of original sin (the later doctrine of the immaculate conception). Julian of Eclanum maintained this as a clinching argument in his onslaught on the whole idea of original sin, but Augustine's rejoinder was that Mary had indeed been born subject to original sin like all other human beings, but had been delivered from its effects 'by the grace of rebirth'." (Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 497)

Mary’s virginity was closely related to her sanctity. Although some early exegetes thought that Mary was not wholly without sin,[8] Augustine (†430) witnessed to contemporary reluctance to speak of any sin in her. - Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ

"Mary had indeed been born subject to original sin like all other human beings, but had been delivered from its effects 'by the grace of rebirth'"

Agree. What was provided to Mary, was the same, as is provided to all of mankind. Believe IN God, Submit TO God, and He shall claim you, be with with and keep you forever in life, unto Him.

Mary SINLESS, no. All born out of the earth, are but dust, are sin and require saving, to become forgiven and in Gods saving grace., that He thereafter remain with the man's spirit forever.

God Bless
SBC

Goatee · Oct 19, 2017

SBC said:
"Mary had indeed been born subject to original sin like all other human beings, but had been delivered from its effects 'by the grace of rebirth'"

Agree. What was provided to Mary, was the same, as is provided to all of mankind. Believe IN God, Submit TO God, and He shall claim you, be with with and keep you forever in life, unto Him.

Mary SINLESS, no. All born out of the earth, are but dust, are sin and require saving, to become forgiven and in Gods saving grace., that He thereafter remain with the man's spirit forever.

God Bless
SBC

God can do what he wants.

If He decided to make Mary a pure vessel to carry His Son then why not?

Mary, a Most Holy and pure Tabernacle.

Phil 1:21 · Oct 19, 2017

Goatee said:
God can do what he wants.

If He decided to make Mary a pure vessel to carry His Son then why not?

Mary, a Most Holy and pure Tabernacle.

The question isn't whether or not God can do something, but whether or not He did do something. God can change my Lexus into a Bentley before I finish typing this sentence.....

But He didn't.

PeaceByJesus · Oct 19, 2017

HisBody said:
And NOT all creatueres are Kecharitomene - least of all YOU.
Only Mary is Kecharitomene.
You can dance around that fact all you want and post as mush gibberish as you please - but you can't change this fact.

What fact? That Mary is greeted as "graced" since God favored her to be the mother of the Messiah? And you extrapolate from this Mary being “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace” including in being sinless, from this? Despite "full/complete/perfectly" not being in the text, the RC argument (EOs tend to reject Original Sin) is that “The perfect stem of a Greek verb denotes ‘continuance of a completed action’; (Father Mateo, Refuting the Attack on Mary, [Catholic Answers, 1999], p. 21).

To which we have the response (warning, prolix excerpt)

However, there are many reasons why this Roman interpretation is incorrect. First, the perfect does not require one take this gracing back to Mary’s birth. All it proves is that some time in the past she was graced or favored and the effect still remained at the time of the angelic greeting. It doesn’t demand she was graced or favored since her conception. As Eric Svendsen noted:

“the perfect tense speaks only of the current state of the subject without reference to how long the subject has been in that state, or will be in that state” (Eric Svendsen, Who is my Mother?: The Role and Status of the Mother of Jesus in the New Testament and Roman Catholicism, [Calvary Press, 2001], p. 129).

Svendsen then gives an example establishing the point:

“John 14:29: ‘I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe.’ The word ‘told’ here is in the perfect tense, but certainly does not mean that Jesus has told them from the beginning of their lives, but rather that he just now told them. Cf. also Acts 7:56, 10:45, and Matt 13:46, all of which use the perfect tense, but none of which implies a permanent state or condition” (Eric Svendsen, Who is my Mother?: The Role and Status of the Mother of Jesus in the New Testament and Roman Catholicism, [Calvary Press, 2001], p. 304 n. 7).

Second, Colossians 1:23 says believers are to be grounded or in other words stable in their faith. The word for grounded is tethemeliōmenoi and it is in the same participle form kecharitōmenē is in Luke 1:28: the perfect passive participle. Is one to then conclude believers have been grounded or stable in their faith since their conceptions? Clearly not since people come to faith long after their births, often times when they are very old. Thus the perfect does not carry the theological weight many Catholics claim it does.

Third, the word kecharitōmenē [κεχαριτωμένη] in Luke 1:28 is the perfect participle form of the verb charitoō which means to grace. The reason why charitoō being in the perfect participle form does not prove the Roman idea that Mary was graced in the past with the Immaculate Conception is because the same word appears in the same verbal form of the perfect participle in the Greek LXX version of the 2nd century B. C. work Sirach 18:17 (Ignace de la Potterie, Biblical Exegesis: A Science of Faith, eds. José Granados, Carlos Granados, Luis Sánchez Navarro, Opening Up the Scriptures: Joseph Ratzinger and the Foundations of Biblical Interpretation, [Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2008], p. 37; Eric Svendsen, Who is my Mother?, [Calvary Press, 2001], p. 303 n. 5). The verse reads,

“Lo, is not a word better than a gift? but both are with a gracious [κεχαριτωμένῳ] man” (Sirach 18:17).

If the perfect participle form of the word grace in Luke 1:28 proves Mary was graced at the Immaculate Conception, then it also proves the man in Sirach 18:17 was graced at his Immaculate Conception as well.
More: Reformed Apologetics Ministries: The Bible does not teach Mary's Immaculate Conception

Even Akin admitted “This [kecharitomene] is a Greek term that you could use in that exact grammatical formation for someone else who wasn’t immaculately conceived and the sentence would still make sense.”

It is also of note that when Peter said, "If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole," (Acts 4:9) the later is in the perfect passive tense.

Also as was provided,

If the perfect tense denotes completeness with a permanent result, then Paul teaches "once saved always saved" in Ephesians 2:8 since he uses the periphrastic perfect ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι ("you are having been saved"). http://forums.carm.org/vbb/printthread.php?t=219962&pp=10&page=3

Also Acts 4:31, "Were gathered together" (ησαν συνηγμενο). Periphrastic past perfect passive of συναγω.

That said. that God would make a cardinal doctrine dependent upon a disputable renderings due to the intricacies of Greek participles is absurd, as is that almighty God required a immaculately conceived and sinlessly preserved vessel in order to be incarnated. Yet Mary did not require immaculately conceived and sinlessly preserved parents, nor did writers who expressed His holy perfect word, nor does the Holy Spirit in order to dwell in believers.

PeaceByJesus · Oct 19, 2017

Mountainmike said:
You seemingly know nothing about catholicism.

Sad, that you echo false witness about it.

Sad you care nothing of truth.

We do not as you invent falsely- treat Mary as a dmigod.

All your other mistakes start with that false assumption

Perhpas one day you would study what we and the early fathers thought.
And then you may even find true christianity

So despite my frequent quoting of Catholic teaching, even educating Catholics of what they are apparently ignorant of, and abudant substantiation from Scripture, which neither you or anyone has been able to "correct," means I echo false witness about it and "care nothing of truth."

And despite my abundant documentation of Catholics making their Mary into a demigoddess (show how that title is wrong in the light of all this) means that is false?

And despite not showing any false assumption then that is one?

And that despite Scripture being the only wholly inspired-of-God authoritative substantive source of express Diviner revelation, you (selectively) want to make what so-called church "fathers" said determinitive of what Scripture means?

Why not just admit that the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility is the basis for your assurance of what you believe being true?

PeaceByJesus · Oct 19, 2017

JayW said:
@SBC - GordonHooker has a good point about the original language. Delving into it can help greatly with context. For example, there are several different words in the original Greek that we translate simply as "love" in English. Knowing which Greek word is used helps us know what type of love the author is describing. The below link gives a pretty fair rundown on it (I think). I know I find when a preacher refers back to the original Greek to help define context it serves to clarify things for me.
Different Types Of Love From The Bible: A Christian Study

But when you invoke those who know the original language, they are blithely ignored or dismissed if they refute Catholic sources, as are the latter when not supportive of RC propaganda.

PeaceByJesus · Oct 19, 2017

One Of The Elect said:
I have ask many questions, received no answers. Strange class, all kinds of accusations no answers. Go figure?

Actually I am still waiting for your direct answers to my questions (plural).
Also awaiting one from Goatee

HisBody · Oct 19, 2017

PeaceByJesus said:
Wonderful texts, though neither Revelation 5:8 or 8:5 teach that the offering of odours or incense is that of a regular postal service, for instead in the light of Scripture what is evident is that this offering of prayers is made in memorial before the judgments of the last days, providing testimony before these judgments. (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; cf. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 6:15; 24:7; Num. 5:15)

For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9.

Thus believers will judge angels, and the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14-15)

And with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord."

In addition, Rv. 5:8; 8:5 do not teach praying to created beings in Heaven, which is also utterly missing among the over 200 prayers and supplications to Heaven in Scripture by believers.

I always find it interesting when Protestants ask each other to pray for them but find it abominable to ask those in Heaven to pray for them. When were those in Heaven kicked out of the Body of Christ? Did I miss the memo?

To ask (pray to) a person in Heaven to pray for us is NO different than asking (praying to) a person on earth for prayer.

That being said - my referencing Rev. 5:8 and Rev. 8:5 was to show the act of intercession of those in Heaven. They are interceding on behalf of those on earth - just as I might intercede for you with prayer. WHY they are interceding is irrelevant in this context.

PeaceByJesus · Oct 19, 2017

Goatee said:
God can do what he wants.
If He decided to make Mary a pure vessel to carry His Son then why not?
Mary, a Most Holy and pure Tabernacle.

And why not immaculately conceive and preserve everyone and thus prevent the need for Redemption? What God could do can never be the basis for doctrine, and which is required belief.

SBC · Oct 19, 2017

Goatee said:
God can do what he wants.

If He decided to make Mary a pure vessel to carry His Son then why not?

Mary, a Most Holy and pure Tabernacle.

God can do what He says. And even some things God says, is God LIMITING Himself on what He can do.

I have no doubt, that Mary believed, subjected herself to God, was accepted by God, forgiven her sins, her soul restored, her spirit quickened, and her pure VIRGIN womb chosen, by God, for a special service unto God.

It is the SAME, that has been happening since the beginning of mankind. Although we are very aware, not every man is chosen, by God, for the same service unto God.

It is not a secret, what Mary's WOMB was chosen for, and that that her service unto God, was unique, and not applicable to any other.

What some people TRY to expand, enlarge, and make greater than what was, IS;
claiming all sorts of things of false nonsense.....such as;
Mary was naturally born without sin..
Mary was sinless..
Mary's ovum was fertilized by God..
Mary was the provider of Jesus' DNA..
Mary is an intercessory to Jesus..
Mary answers prayers..
Mary appears to mankind as an apparition..
Mary's receiving of grace is greater than any other...
and on and on and on nonsense.

I do not find ANY Scriptural support for such nonsense, nor fall for such nonsense.
Nor do I disagree, that Mary filled an important role in Service to God, as many others as well do also.

God Bless,
SBC

PeaceByJesus · Oct 19, 2017

HisBody said:
I always find it interesting when Protestants ask each other to pray for them but find it abominable to ask those in Heaven to pray for them. When were those in Heaven kicked out of the Body of Christ? Did I miss the memo?

That believers are not to pray to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord is not kicking the great cloud of witness to faith out of the body, but following their example of prayer. What it does is kick out the idea that they prayed to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) which is nowhere seen.

God affirms that earth and Heaven are two different realms, and only God is shown prayed to and able to hear all prayer from Heaven. And from what i recall, any two-way communication btwn created beings from their respective realms required both to somehow be in the same place.

Evidently according to you the Holy Spirit " missed the memo" since He inspires the recording of over 200 prayers, and instruction on who to address, but never provides even on example of PTCBIH, despite this being a most basic, common fundamental practice for Catholics, as prayer itself is, and despite there always being plenty of created beings inHeaven to pray to, and of human need for supernatural assistance.

Will you thus apologize for the Holy Spirit neglecting this (blasphemy), or apologizeo Him for inferring that He would?

To ask (pray to) a person in Heaven to pray for us is NO different than asking (praying to) a person on earth for prayer.

Wrong again. We do not presume supernatural powers to hear all mental prayer addressed to them, nor even of angels in Heaven, for as in Solomon said in his prayer to God,

Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men

(2 Chronicles 6:30)

And one would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling or prostrating before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to that entity, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to such.

Which manner of adulation would constitute worship in Scripture , yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

That being said - my referencing Rev. 5:8 and Rev. 8:5 was to show the act of intercession of those in Heaven. They are interceding on behalf of those on earth - just as I might intercede for you with prayer. WHY they are interceding is irrelevant in this context.

As shown, interceding is not what is indicated, nor that it was continuous as would be the case if they were, but that of offering prayers (which were already heard) in memorial before the judgments upon the earth, likewise the cry from martyred believes. This is what God provides before sending such judgments.

Goatee · Oct 19, 2017

SBC said:
God can do what He says. And even some things God says, is God LIMITING Himself on what He can do.

I have no doubt, that Mary believed, subjected herself to God, was accepted by God, forgiven her sins, her soul restored, her spirit quickened, and her pure VIRGIN womb chosen, by God, for a special service unto God.

It is the SAME, that has been happening since the beginning of mankind. Although we are very aware, not every man is chosen, by God, for the same service unto God.

It is not a secret, what Mary's WOMB was chosen for, and that that her service unto God, was unique, and not applicable to any other.

What some people TRY to expand, enlarge, and make greater than what was, IS;
claiming all sorts of things of false nonsense.....such as;
Mary was naturally born without sin..
Mary was sinless..
Mary's ovum was fertilized by God..
Mary was the provider of Jesus' DNA..
Mary is an intercessory to Jesus..
Mary answers prayers..
Mary appears to mankind as an apparition..
Mary's receiving of grace is greater than any other...
and on and on and on nonsense.

I do not find ANY Scriptural support for such nonsense, nor fall for such nonsense.
Nor do I disagree, that Mary filled an important role in Service to God, as many others as well do also.

God Bless,
SBC

Then you need to do some more studying!

Mountainmike · Oct 19, 2017

Read the catechism and quote from it, if you want to discuss what we believe

And you clearly DONT understand catholicism, only the anticatholic myth playbook - if you think Mary is a demigodess. We certainly do not!

If you want to study true christianity
First accept sola scriptura is false - easily proven by simple logic or scripture.

Next accept the authority of apostolic succession acting in (catholic) council ie magisterium- without that you have no new testament. Without that you have no creed or canon. With it you have the definitive interpretation of what scripture means.

And study how - Jesus decreed- faith was actually passed in the early church - by apostolic handing down - paradosis (the word translated as tradition but misunderstood by most protestants). Study WHAT was handed down. Even in the first generations a liturgical sacramental church, that believed in real presence truly the flesh of Jesus - and eucharist valid only if performed by an appointed succession bishop or his appointee. Study it and discover the only church that is therefore appointed by Jesus is the catholic church, whose beliefs have changed little over two millenia.

Only in 1500 with the false man made tradition of sola scriptura did alternative doctrines proliferate, as "every milkmaid" then had their own doctrine (quote luther) which is why all reformationist churches have fractured into thousands of bits who cannot hold truth because they have mutually exclusive views on every aspect of doctrine.

Why is that ? easy...because people like you think you can make your own version, that "Your interpretation" of scripture is right. But the power to bind and loose on doctrine (ie authority) was given to apostolic succession jointly and separately to successors of Peter. The magisterium So listen to them. Jesus appointed them. WHy do you ignore them?

And discover they believed in the power of intercession of Mary. WHich is supported scripturally.

So why do you discard the faith as handed down

Then having recognised the importance of early fathers and tradtion , study what they say about Mary.
You are in for a big surprise.

Without the inspired decisions of councils - ie magisterium you have no new testament or creed.

But then like most protestants you probably have amnesia about the early church.

PeaceByJesus said:
So despite my frequent quoting of Catholic teaching, even educating Catholics of what they are apparently ignorant of, and abudant substantiation from Scripture, which neither you or anyone has been able to "correct," means I echo false witness about it and "care nothing of truth."

And despite my abundant documentation of Catholics making their Mary into a demigoddess (show how that title is wrong in the light of all this) means that is false?

And despite not showing any false assumption then that is one?

And that despite Scripture being the only wholly inspired-of-God authoritative substantive source of express Diviner revelation, you (selectively) want to make what so-called church "fathers" said determinitive of what Scripture means?

Why not just admit that the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility is the basis for your assurance of what you believe being true?

SBC · Oct 19, 2017

HisBody said:
I always find it interesting when Protestants ask each other to pray for them but find it abominable to ask those in Heaven to pray for them. When were those in Heaven kicked out of the Body of Christ? Did I miss the memo?

To ask (pray to) a person in Heaven to pray for us is NO different than asking (praying to) a person on earth for prayer.

That being said - my referencing Rev. 5:8 and Rev. 8:5 was to show the act of intercession of those in Heaven. They are interceding on behalf of those on earth - just as I might intercede for you with prayer. WHY they are interceding is irrelevant in this context.

What seems to be the crux of the issue is;
How does a Catholic ASK a "heavenly saint" to pray for them?

IS it according to you, By praying TO the saint, then asking for them to relay or otherwise be an intercessory for what the person wants to ask?

That method is how some Catholic sites describe the involvement of saints.

However a Protestant does not pray to a person and ask them to be an intercessory for them.
A Protestant notifies the other person of what they want, and asks the person to pray with them.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC · Oct 19, 2017

Goatee said:
Then you need to do some more studying!

Well, you didn't identify an objection, thus, there is nothing to respond to regarding my post.

Gee, thanks for stating the obvious. Nothing in Scripture teaches man is all knowing and should stop learning! giggle

God Bless,
SBC

HisBody · Oct 19, 2017

PeaceByJesus said:
What fact? That Mary is greeted as "graced" since God favored her to be the mother of the Messiah? And you extrapolate from this Mary being “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace” including in being sinless, from this? Despite "full/complete/perfectly" not being in the text, the RC argument (EOs tend to reject Original Sin) is that “The perfect stem of a Greek verb denotes ‘continuance of a completed action’; (Father Mateo, Refuting the Attack on Mary, [Catholic Answers, 1999], p. 21).

To which we have the response (warning, prolix excerpt)

However, there are many reasons why this Roman interpretation is incorrect. First, the perfect does not require one take this gracing back to Mary’s birth. All it proves is that some time in the past she was graced or favored and the effect still remained at the time of the angelic greeting. It doesn’t demand she was graced or favored since her conception. As Eric Svendsen noted:

“the perfect tense speaks only of the current state of the subject without reference to how long the subject has been in that state, or will be in that state” (Eric Svendsen, Who is my Mother?: The Role and Status of the Mother of Jesus in the New Testament and Roman Catholicism, [Calvary Press, 2001], p. 129).

Svendsen then gives an example establishing the point:

“John 14:29: ‘I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe.’ The word ‘told’ here is in the perfect tense, but certainly does not mean that Jesus has told them from the beginning of their lives, but rather that he just now told them. Cf. also Acts 7:56, 10:45, and Matt 13:46, all of which use the perfect tense, but none of which implies a permanent state or condition” (Eric Svendsen, Who is my Mother?: The Role and Status of the Mother of Jesus in the New Testament and Roman Catholicism, [Calvary Press, 2001], p. 304 n. 7).

Second, Colossians 1:23 says believers are to be grounded or in other words stable in their faith. The word for grounded is tethemeliōmenoi and it is in the same participle form kecharitōmenē is in Luke 1:28: the perfect passive participle. Is one to then conclude believers have been grounded or stable in their faith since their conceptions? Clearly not since people come to faith long after their births, often times when they are very old. Thus the perfect does not carry the theological weight many Catholics claim it does.

Third, the word kecharitōmenē [κεχαριτωμένη] in Luke 1:28 is the perfect participle form of the verb charitoō which means to grace. The reason why charitoō being in the perfect participle form does not prove the Roman idea that Mary was graced in the past with the Immaculate Conception is because the same word appears in the same verbal form of the perfect participle in the Greek LXX version of the 2nd century B. C. work Sirach 18:17 (Ignace de la Potterie, Biblical Exegesis: A Science of Faith, eds. José Granados, Carlos Granados, Luis Sánchez Navarro, Opening Up the Scriptures: Joseph Ratzinger and the Foundations of Biblical Interpretation, [Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2008], p. 37; Eric Svendsen, Who is my Mother?, [Calvary Press, 2001], p. 303 n. 5). The verse reads,

“Lo, is not a word better than a gift? but both are with a gracious [κεχαριτωμένῳ] man” (Sirach 18:17).

If the perfect participle form of the word grace in Luke 1:28 proves Mary was graced at the Immaculate Conception, then it also proves the man in Sirach 18:17 was graced at his Immaculate Conception as well.
More: Reformed Apologetics Ministries: The Bible does not teach Mary's Immaculate Conception

Even Akin admitted “This [kecharitomene] is a Greek term that you could use in that exact grammatical formation for someone else who wasn’t immaculately conceived and the sentence would still make sense.”

It is also of note that when Peter said, "If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole," (Acts 4:9) the later is in the perfect passive tense.

Also as was provided,

If the perfect tense denotes completeness with a permanent result, then Paul teaches "once saved always saved" in Ephesians 2:8 since he uses the periphrastic perfect ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι ("you are having been saved"). http://forums.carm.org/vbb/printthread.php?t=219962&pp=10&page=3

Also Acts 4:31, "Were gathered together" (ησαν συνηγμενο). Periphrastic past perfect passive of συναγω.

That said. that God would make a cardinal doctrine dependent upon a disputable renderings due to the intricacies of Greek participles is absurd, as is that almighty God required a immaculately conceived and sinlessly preserved vessel in order to be incarnated. Yet Mary did not require immaculately conceived and sinlessly preserved parents, nor did writers who expressed His holy perfect word, nor does the Holy Spirit in order to dwell in believers.

Interesting. That Jimmy Akin comment is supposedly from a radio broadcast and, if said, was clearly taken out of context. This is evident from the following written words from Jimmy on the subject:

The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. This word represents the proper name of the person being addressed by the angel, and it therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates a perfection of grace that is both intensive and extensive.

This means that the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit, and was not only as "full" or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called "full of grace" - Jimmy Akin

Non-Catholic scholars also0 agree with the Catholic position on Kecharitomene:

The variant of charitoo here is echaritosen. While Kecharitomene is, according to everything I've read, a perfect passive participle, echaritosen is an indicative active aorist. Kecharitomene means "having been" or "have already been" graced, according to this commentary on the Book of Zechariah -- talking about perfect passive participles in a different context and a different verse [brackets indicate where I am inserting "graced" for the word in the relevant text]:

"That which will accompany, and be a result of, Jewish recognition, is a direct quotation from the Septuagint in Ps. 118:26, 'Blessed be he that comes in the name of the LORD.' This verse also is better understood with a Greek analysis. The word Blessed, 'eulogamenos' is a perfect passive participle. It literally means 'having been blessed or praised.' The 'perfect' action of the participle is considered to have been completed before the time of the speaker. How long before is not a consideration but the Greek verbal idea is that the action has already been completed. Time is still secondary but perfected action must imply the past in relationship to the speaker. The person using the word is confessing that the one referred to has already been blessed [or graced]." (Zechariah and Jewish Renewal: From Gloom to Glory by Fred P. Miller, chapter 31 on Zechariah 20)

"There are seven tenses of the Greek verb. They are: the Aorist, Present, Imperfect, Future, Pluperfect, and Future Perfect. Let us exemplify the Perfect and Present tenses. In the words of the Greek grammarian J. Gresham Machen, 'The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action' (New Testament Greek for Beginners, p. 187). The perfect is used in Matthew 4:4,7,10 ('it is written'). Literally translated, 'It has been written in the past and is still in force.' Hence, Jesus expresses the continuing authority of God's written law by using the perfect tense." ("How About the Greek Language?" from BibleQuestions.org)

"...Ephesians 2:8, 'For by grace are you saved through faith...' The word 'saved' is translated from the Greek word sesosmenoi, which is a perfect passive participle. It means that this salvation took place at some point in the past and is continuing on in the present...." ("The Lord is not Slack Concerning His Promise" from CephasMinistry.com)

In other words, the perfect tense in Greek is a past tense with a special meaning: it is used to refer to a past action which has effects felt in the present. So, here's what some modern, English-speaking scholars tell us "Kecharitomene" denotes, based purely on the definition of the word and its grammatical usage:
" 'Highly favoured' (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians 1:6 . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena [full of grace] "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow' " (A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 14)

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

The variant of charitoo here is echaritosen. While Kecharitomene is, according to everything I've read, a perfect passive participle, echaritosen is an indicative active aorist. Kecharitomenemeans "having been" or "have already been" graced, according to this commentary on the Book of Zechariah -- talking about perfect passive participles in a different context and a different verse [brackets indicate where I am inserting "graced" for the word in the relevant text]:

"That which will accompany, and be a result of, Jewish recognition, is a direct quotation from the Septuagint in Ps. 118:26, 'Blessed be he that comes in the name of the LORD.' This verse also is better understood with a Greek analysis. The word Blessed, 'eulogamenos' is a perfect passive participle. It literally means 'having been blessed or praised.' The 'perfect' action of the participle is considered to have been completed before the time of the speaker. How long before is not a consideration but the Greek verbal idea is that the action has already been completed. Time is still secondary but perfected action must imply the past in relationship to the speaker. The person using the word is confessing that the one referred to has already been blessed [or graced]." (Zechariah and Jewish Renewal: From Gloom to Glory by Fred P. Miller, chapter 31 on Zechariah 20)

HisBody · Oct 19, 2017

SBC said:
What seems to be the crux of the issue is;
How does a Catholic ASK a "heavenly saint" to pray for them?

IS it according to you, By praying TO the saint, then asking for them to relay or otherwise be an intercessory for what the person wants to ask?

That method is how some Catholic sites describe the involvement of saints.

However a Protestant does not pray to a person and ask them to be an intercessory for them.
A Protestant notifies the other person of what they want, and asks the person to pray with them.

God Bless,
SBC

I've got news for you, my linguistically-challenged friend:
EVERY time you ask somebody to pray for you - YOU have "prayed" to them.

"Pray" simply means to ASK - to ENTREAT - to SUPPLICATE.
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary defines “Pray” as follows:

Pray
verb \ˈprā\

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Notice that "worship" isn't even a primary definition - but a SECONDARY one.
"Pray" is legal, juridical language that is also used in court documents and police reports.

The "crux" of this issue is that YOU have kicked those in Heaven OUT of the Body of Christ.

SBC · Oct 19, 2017

HisBody said:
I've got news for you, my linguistically-challenged friend:
EVERY time you ask somebody to pray for you - YOU have "prayed" to them.

"Pray" simply means to ASK - to ENTREAT - to SUPPLICATE.
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary defines “Pray” as follows:

Pray
verb \ˈprā\

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Notice that "worship" isn't even a primary definition - but a SECONDARY one.
"Pray" is legal, juridical language that is also used in court documents and police reports.

Pray; Verb
address a solemn request or expression of thanks to a deity or other object of worship.

Pray; Adverb
used as a preface to polite requests or instructions

The "crux" of this issue is that YOU have kicked those in Heaven OUT of the Body of Christ.

LOL - Well, that is not only funny but false. Pretty presumptuous on your part to think or charge that any man has the power to kick anyone out of Heaven... giggle.

I know the difference between praying to a deity or "other object of worship", to which Catholics certainly do reveal the latter, by their making of and bowing before statutes they are claiming are symbols of deities.

God bless,
SBC

HisBody · Oct 19, 2017

SBC said:
Pray; Verb
address a solemn request or expression of thanks to a deity or other object of worship.

Pray; Adverb
used as a preface to polite requests or instructions

Uh huh - I already gave you the definition Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.
Even in YOUR definition, it doesn't always men "worship."

SBC said:
LOL - Well, that is not only funny but false. Pretty presumptuous on your part to think or charge that any man has the power to kick anyone out of Heaven... giggle.

If you think that asking them to pray for us is sinful - then you HAVE attempted to kick them out of the Body of Christ.
What a waste of time . . .

SBC said:
I know the difference between praying to a deity or "other object of worship", to which Catholics certainly do reveal the latter, by their making of and bowing before statutes they are claiming are symbols of deities.

God bless,
SBC

Soooooo, you're saying that we "worship" the saints when we ask them to pray for us??
You think that making statues is an act of worship?? Where do you get this nonsense from??

Certainly NOT from Scripture . . .

Douglas Hendrickson · Oct 19, 2017

Goatee said:
God can do what he wants.

If He decided to make Mary a pure vessel to carry His Son then why not?

Mary, a Most Holy and pure Tabernacle.

EXACTLY !

No need to have her conceived sinless or any nonsense like that. Only maybe making her a "sinless vessel" while producing the Son.
Actually, since as you say, "God can do what he wants," He only had to protect His Son from being contaminated by her!
NOT that she herself ever had to be a pure vessel even.
Or is God's power so limited He could not protect a fetus which is incapable of sin from sin?
THERE IS NO SIN IN A WOMB, so is this not all pretty much a moot point?

True meaning of the Immaculate Conception as not taught by the RCC

Do you get it?

Do not get it.

I agree

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Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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