The Book of Enoch?

Devin P said:

Well, there's different texts for the book of Enoch. The Aramaic texts, seem to be the most reliable, and don't deviate from the bible at all.

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As shown, there are "fragments".

But it still does make the argument that it should be taught or used as truth.

It's not in the canon. Period.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Devin P said:

Well, let's look at that verse in context:

Enoch 69:8-12
8 And the fourth was named Penemu'ĕl: he taught the children of men the bitter and the sweet, and he taught them all the secrets of their wisdom.
(So, here we have a fallen watcher (angel) teaching men about the wisdom of fallen watchers (angels), not meant to be known about by men)
9 And he instructed mankind in writing with ink and paper, and thereby many sinned from everlasting to everlasting and until this day.
(He then taught them to write, and they ended up writing this wisdom down, not meant to be known about by men)
10 For men were not created for such a purpose, to give confirmation to their good belief with pen and ink.
(This verse is true. We weren't meant to have to write about the goodness of God. We weren't meant to have to write God's truth love, and mercy down so other generations would learn about it. We were meant to live with God, and for God for all of eternity. Learning about Him through the bible was never intended. He wanted us to know, all of us, to know and glorify Him without having the need of a book to teach us. We're supposed to have our parents and elders teach us, and just the world in general - all of creation as God says)

11 For men were created exactly like the messengers, to the intent that they should continue pure and righteous. And death, which destroys all matters, could not have taken hold of them, but through this, their knowledge, they are perishing, and through this power it is consuming me.
(This backs up what I said earlier about the verse above)
12 And the fifth was named Kasdeya: this is he who showed the children of men all the wicked smiting of spirits and demons, and the smiting of the embryo in the womb, that it may pass away, and the bites of the serpent, and the smiting which befalls through the noontide heat, the son of the serpent named Taba'ĕt.

(So, just in verse 12, some of this knowledge that the fallen gave to us, that we ended up writing down and teaching to all later generations, was abortion.)

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What is "fallen angel"?

And even at best, the text says "he taught them all the secrets of their wisdom."

Deny it all you want, the text teaches the that "fallen angel" (demon) taught man to sin.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Devin P said:

It does say Gadre'el, but in the hebrew text, what the OT is written in. It only ever talks of satan while putting the word "the" in front of it (aside from once), obviously the hebraic equivalent of the word the - "Ha" - e.g. HaShatan. It's not referring to "satan" being one being. It always refers to satan being many. The satan.

When we look at what satan means in hebrew, it means enemy, or adversary. So it's literally saying, the enemy or the adversary when it refers to satan in the bible. The enemy, or the adversary isn't indicative of one individual, it's indicative of many. As the book of Enoch talks about, the many fallen, each responsible for different things that are unrighteous. Azazel however, was responsible for much more, as Enoch 8 shows, and during the scapegoat sacrifice, Azazel is the name of the goat with which all sin is to be ascribed in the books of Moses.

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Argue all you want, but the fact remains that it the serpent, Satan/Lucifer who caused Eve to sin, and she in turn caused Adam to sin.

That is in the scripture and Enoch contradicts it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Devin P said:

That, and who was the writer of Enoch, that said they were Enoch, yet still prophesied over 300 years before the birth of the Messiah, and predicted His birth, His title, and what it would mean for sin, and our redemption, considering it was something no one knew about - aside from prophets - up until He came?

The oldest found version, was 300 years before Jesus, but that doesn't mean that there aren't older versions, nor does that mean it wasn't written long before this time. There's several books referenced in the OT that were considered scripture all throughout scripture that have never been found, but that doesn't mean they don't exist does it? The book of the Wars of יהוה (the Lord) has never been found, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist.

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This statement alone disqualifies Enoch.

Enoch was taken up around 3500 BCE.

You said:

"That, and who was the writer of Enoch, that said they were Enoch, yet still prophesied over 300 years before the birth of the Messiah, and predicted His birth, His title, and what it would mean for sin, and our redemption, considering it was something no one knew about - aside from prophets - up until He came?"

What did God do, taken Enoch up, hold hi there, then allow him to come back some 400 years before the birth of Christ to write a prophesy?

Moses wrote in Genesis of the coming Christ.

Fact is, until Moses wrote the Torah, nobody knew for sure about the coming Christ.

Not even Job, who supposedly wrote his book before Moses knew it. And Job lived before Moses.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Devin P said:

Just the fact that Enoch referred to Jesus as the Son of Man, and that He would take away all sin on our behalf, and that He would redeem the gentiles is enough to establish authorship. The fact that a saint, passed him off as a real person, and as real writings establishes authorship. It's a book that gives huge insight into how Hashatan works (how the enemy works), and because of that, obviously they aren't going to want the book in our hands. Especially because it was written (as Enoch mentions) specifically for us, those in the last days.
We might not agree, and that's fine, but I figured I'd try to show some my reasoning behind why I consider it scripture.

That and 2 Peter 2:4 references it. This was something only written about in the book of Enoch - as nowhere else in scripture does anything talk about them being chained and held in bondage and prison until judgement, aside from in another quote in Jude. Something Jesus references a couple times, but the book of Enoch couldn't of been referencing Jesus, because again, 300 years prior. Idk, there's so much more reasons as well, but whether or not I include them depends on how you respond to this huge message that I've already sent out haha. It's cool if we disagree, all that I ask is that you pray on it, and that you aren't afraid to at least peer out into things not mentioned in the cannon. The cannon was compiled by men, and can be faulty, it's not perfect, especially considering it once had 88 books, and now has 66. Which in and of itself is a sketch number.

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That's not an argument.

Paul quoted outside sources also.

Should we include them?

Jude also quotes from The Assumption of Moses. Should we include that too?

No argument you can provide will change the fact that around 400 BCE, the Old Testament canon was closed and Enoch was not included. In fact, there is only one group that uses it. And it is found in Ethiopic versions ONLY!

Nothing you can say will change the fact.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Devin P said:

There are without a doubt, entire books of Enoch written in aramaic, greek and etho. This isn't something that's hard to find, it's a literal fact. We have the whole text, but the best kept and most well preserved and oldest copy of it is kept horded with a private investor.

Idk, I wasn't arguing brother. Just stating facts about what it says, and how some take things out of context.

The serpent is definitely responsible for leading us astray, but as the serpent is referenced by Jesus, and in the Torah as the administer of the venom that kills God's chosen, so it was in the garden. The venom of the serpent is deception, and deceit.

As far as me arguing about Hashatan, that's not arguing. Ha is hebrew for the shatan, is hebrew for enemy or adversary.

It's not arguing to point out that "the enemy" isn't talking about one, especially when Jesus says we have been given the power to walk on serpents.

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But according to Enoch, it wasn't the serpents fault.

It was the "fallen angels".

And again, show me in scripture where "fallen angels" provide mankind weapons.

Enoch 69:6 specifically say the "fallen angels" taught mankind how to kill, the art of metal working, and after making shields, and swords.

Funny. I don't remember reading that part when Cain slew Abel.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

Again, say what you will, but evidently you haven't researched the matter enough.

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I can tell you have researched it though! Isn't Google search the bomb?

DeaconDean said:

It is wholly extant only in the Ge'ez language, with Aramaic fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls and a few Greek and Latin fragments.

When was Israel under Greek and Latin rule?<snip>

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They were under Greek rule from the time of Alexander the Great, late 4th century BC and then under Latin rule from the mid 1st century BC until they dispersed them in AD 70 and finally AD 132. What is your point?

Devin P said:

The fallen angels are the serpent.

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Scripture please.

Until then...

God Bless

Till all are one.

Several times Enoch uses the phrase "son of man" an obvious reference to Christ.

Outside Enoch's book, show me one reference in the canon of scriptures (Old Testament) that use this phrase in reference to Christ.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Devin P said:

and then it got Cain to kill Abel because he was doing things the way God wanted him to.

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Scripture please.

Until then...

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

This statement alone disqualifies Enoch.

Enoch was taken up around 3500 BCE.

You said:

"That, and who was the writer of Enoch, that said they were Enoch, yet still prophesied over 300 years before the birth of the Messiah, and predicted His birth, His title, and what it would mean for sin, and our redemption, considering it was something no one knew about - aside from prophets - up until He came?"

What did God do, taken Enoch up, hold hi there, then allow him to come back some 400 years before the birth of Christ to write a prophesy?

Moses wrote in Genesis of the coming Christ.

Fact is, until Moses wrote the Torah, nobody knew for sure about the coming Christ.

Not even Job, who supposedly wrote his book knew it. And Job lived before Moses.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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And Jeremiah says that God never made a covenant with the children of Israel concerning sacrifice but we didn't get rid of the Torah or Jeremiah... I truly do not understand the deification of a book. Jesus Christ is the Word of God (Logos), not a book.

Here are some more facts about the Book of Enoch.

Enoch is not a singular book, in fact it is five separate books. Each with a different author.

Breakdown:

"The first book, chapters 1-36, deals with The Watchers and the nephilim. It is undoubtedly the one that exercises the greatest influence over modern speculative writing. The Watchers are a group of fallen angels, while the Nephilim are the offspring produced from their sexual union with women.

The second book, chapters 37-71, contains The Parables of Enoch. There are three parables in all. The first deals with the nature of heaven, the second with the Enochian concept of a messiah, and the third with the nature of the earth.

The third book, consisting mainly of chapters 72-82, deals with astronomy and the movement of the heavenly bodies.

The fourth book, chapters 83-90, contains an apocalyptic vision of the Flood, a vision of the millennial kingdom, and the history of Israel to the time of the Maccabees, expressed as events that had yet to happen.

The fifth book, chapters 91-108, also called the Epistle of Enoch, contains admonitions to his children, as well as prophetic reflections on the destinies of the righteous and the wicked, respectively."

Source

Until AD 325 when the Council of Nicea met, no ecclesiastic body endorsed the Book of Enoch. In fact, it wasn't even considered.

The Book of Enoch was at no time part of the Jewish canon of Scripture and was not included in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament which was completed around 130 BC.

"The only complete version of the 'book' (i.e. books 1-5 in a single volume) is in Ge'ez or Ethiopian, dating from the 16th century or thereabouts. Copies of this version were discovered by the Scottish explorer, James Bruce, in 1773 and brought back to Europe. The first translation in English was not published until 1821. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain fragments in Aramaic from four of the books (No fragments from The Book of Parables were identified). These fragments contain enough text to allow their place in The Book of Enoch to be determined, but not nearly enough to confirm that the version found by Bruce is substantially the same as the one on which the Qumran fragments were based.

Scholars have made a tentative estimate of the periods in which the books were written. No scholar of repute, as far as we know, attributes the work as a whole to Enoch, the son of Jared, mentioned in Genesis 5:18. It is universally agreed that, like virtually all Apocryphal literature, the Book of Enoch was written in what is often called the inter-testamental period, after the last of the Old Testament books had been written (c.400 BC) but before the appearance of the earliest works of the New Testament."

Source

Again, all this has previously been pointed out to you in several of my previous posts.

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According to Enoch, "And the name of the third is Gadreel; this is the one that showed all the deadly blows to the sons of men. And he led astray Eve. And he showed the weapons of death to the children of men, the shield and the breastplate, and the sword for slaughter, and all the weapons of death to the sons of men." -Enoch 69:6

But not long after Enoch was born, we read in the scriptures:

"And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron:" -Gen. 4:22 (KJV)

The "fallen angels" of Enoch are recorded as having existed not long before the flood, but, here is a man in scripture who already knew how to work "brass and iron".

Not to mention, we hear nothing, absolutely nothing prior to Genesis 6 of "fallen angels".

How many years were between Genesis 4 and 6?

Show in me in the scriptures where Tubalcain was instructed by "fallen angels" how to work brass and iron".

God Bless

Till all are one.

"Okay, let's look at the next six chapters (6-11). These are without doubt the ones that have contributed most to the notoriety of The Book of Enoch by twisting the plain interpretation of Genesis 6 into a science fiction drama. It begins with two hundred angels conspiring together to invade earth and make wives of human women. The following statement is attributed to 'Semjaza', the leader of this renegade group: "I
fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin." In all 19 of these fallen angels are named (6:7), none of whom are mentioned in the Bible. Given that only two fallen angels are named in the Bible, Lucifer/Satan and Abaddon/Apollyon, and only two righteous angels, Gabriel and Michael, we find here an obvious attempt to portray these rebels in heroic or sympathetic terms."

Source

"It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. And when the angels (1), the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children. Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise; And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime. But they answered him and said; We all swear; And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking. Then they swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis (2), which is the top of mount Armon. That mountain therefore was called Armon, because they had sworn upon it (3), and bound themselves by mutual execrations. These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Saraknyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Anane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal. These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them.(4)" -Enoch 6:1-9

Footnotes:

(1) An Aramaic text reads "Watchers" here (J.T. Milik, Aramaic Fragments of Qumran Cave 4 [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976], p. 167).
(2) Upon Ardis. Or, "in the days of Jared" (R.H. Charles, ed. and trans., The Book of Enoch [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1893], p. 63).
(3) Mt. Armon, or Mt. Hermon, derives its name from the Hebrew word herem, a curse (Charles, p. 63).
(4) The Aramaic texts preserve an earlier list of names of these Watchers: Semihazah; Artqoph; Ramtel; Kokabel; Ramel; Danieal; Zeqiel; Baraqel; Asael; Hermoni; Matarel; Ananel; Stawel; Samsiel; Sahriel; Tummiel; Turiel; Yomiel; Yhaddiel (Milik, p. 151).

Now, where in the scriptures are we told this?

Not to mention:

"They then take one wife each and, after defiling them, teach them "charms and
enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants." (7:1) This conflicts with the account in Genesis where Adam was created with the skills he needed to carry out the job that God had given him, which would have included a knowledge of botany (just like his knowledge of zoology). So it was not an occult skill that could be acquired only through the intervention of fallen angels, but a gift that mankind had already received from God."

Source


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