The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

BABerean2 · Oct 15, 2017

keras said:
Jesus does NOT Return in flaming fire.

2Th 1:7　 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,　

2Th 1:8　 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:　

2Th 1:9　 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;　

2Th 1:10　 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.　

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keras · Oct 15, 2017

BABerean2 said:
2Th 1:7　 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,　

You can believe this refers to the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, I do not.
Because that prophecy simply does not relate to the 3 prophesies that specifically detail what happens at His actual Return: Zechariah 14:3-10, Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-17

At the Lord's terrible Day of wrath by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, He will be revealed to His own people, now every faithful Christian; only those who call out to Him as Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21 say.
Not to all the world, as stated in Matthew 24:30

BABerean2 · Oct 16, 2017

keras said:
You can believe this refers to the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, I do not.

2Th 1:10　 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.　

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keras · Oct 16, 2017

Try a translation that tells it in an unbiased and more logical way:
2 Thessalonians 1:10 When on the great day He comes to reveal His glory among His own and His majesty among all believers..... Revised English Bible 1989

You fail to address the 3 actual prophesies about the Return of Jesus, which do not mention fire at all and how He shows Himself only to believers. We will see Him, as Revelation 14:1 states.

BaBerean, there WILL be a Day of wrath, over 100 prophesies tell us about it, in great detail.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 is about it and Paul says that we Christians should be aware and prepared for it.
There has to be some kind of dramatic event to commence the last days, to allow for the establishment of a One World Govt and for the gathering of the Lord's faithful people, as prophesied. Isaiah 66:18b-21
Psalms 39:27 The righteous shall possess the Land and will live there forever.

BABerean2 · Oct 16, 2017

keras said:
The righteous shall possess the Land and will live there forever.

Heb 11:15　 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.　
Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.　

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Riberra · Oct 16, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Heb 11:15　 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.　
Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.　

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It seem that we will have to wait until that City come down to Earth...that will be a long time after our death.
Revelation 3:12
12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

By the way...do you believe that Jesus was resurrected in the FLESH and bones ?

keras · Oct 16, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Heb 11:15　 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.　
Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.　

You are really getting yourself into a unbiblical and confused situation!
Riberra shows you; that new city comes down from heaven and when it does, we are told in Revelation 21:1-7
As you don't seem to want to, or be able to answer my questions re the forthcoming Judgement/punishment by fire, perhaps you can explain how God will deal with His enemies, firstly those who attack Israel, as per Psalms 83. Then, later; those who conquer the holy Land, Zechariah 14:1-2

BABerean2 · Oct 16, 2017

keras said:
You are really getting yourself into a unbiblical and confused situation!
Riberra shows you; that new city comes down from heaven and when it does, we are told in Revelation 21:1-7
As you don't seem to want to, or be able to answer my questions re the forthcoming Judgement/punishment by fire,

The problem is that Peter says something different.

In 2 Peter 3:10-13 Peter says the New Heavens and the New Earth come on the "day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".
This connects the timing of the event to 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 and to Revelation 16:15-16.

Paul said Christ returns in flaming fire in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.
I hope that answers your question about Judgment/punishment by fire.

Jesus said the judgment occurs at His return in Matthew chapter 25.

In 2 Timothy 4:1 we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at his appearing.

In 1 Corinthians chapter 15 death dies at the last trumpet.

The text of Revelation 11:18 clearly states it as the time of the judgment of the dead, which occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

I love both of you guys, but I am not the one who is confused.

The confusion comes by attempting to force the Book of Revelation into a perfect chronological sequence.

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keras · Oct 16, 2017

BABerean2 said:
The problem is that Peter says something different.

2 Peter 3:1-7; an admonition that the Lord will correct His creation once again; this time by fire.
2 Peter 3:8-9; Reiterating Psalms 90:4, the formula of God's time compared with earth time and His patience with us.
2 Peter 3:10 Another description of the Lord's Day of wrath, the cosmic things and the fire, that we know from Isaiah 30:25, will come from the sun.
2 Peter 3:11; another admonition for us to live godly lives.
2 Peter 3:12, We should be aware of and prepared for this terrible, forthcoming Day, that will make the sky ablaze and will devastate most of the earths surface. Isaiah 24:1-6, Jeremiah 25:30-32
2 Peter 3:13, then: plainly refers to the new heavens and new earth, which we know happens after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-3
2 Peter 3:14-18.....so dear friends, you have been forwarned, take care and do not fall for the errors of the false teachers....

What Peter tells us is in perfect harmony with all the other prophesies, a sequence of events from now until Eternity. The problems arise when his prophesies are mixed up and misplaced.
I have never said that the Book of Revelation is all in chronological order. Only the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are.

BABerean2 · Oct 17, 2017

keras said:
2 Peter 3:10 Another description of the Lord's Day of wrath, the cosmic things and the fire, that we know from Isaiah 30:25, will come from the sun.

2Pe 3:10　 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.　

The Coming of the Lord (subtitle from eSword)

1Th 4:13　 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.　
1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.　
1Th 4:15　 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.　
1Th 4:16　 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:　
1Th 4:17　 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.　
1Th 4:18　 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.　

1Th 5:1　 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.　
1Th 5:2　 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.　

Paul and Peter use the same phrase to describe the Second Coming of Christ. The "day of the Lord" will "come like a thief". This is confirmed by Revelation 16:15-16.
It will not be the sun that brings forth the fire.
It will be the Son that brings the fire, based on the following text.

2Th 1:7　 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,　
2Th 1:8　 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:　
2Th 1:9　 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;　
2Th 1:10　 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.　

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keras · Oct 17, 2017

BABerean2 said:
It will not be the sun that brings forth the fire.
It will be the Son that brings the fire, based on the following text.

The Son will use the sun! Psalms 110:5-6, Psalms 50:1-3, Hebrews 10:27, Hebrews 12:29
His Day of wrath will happen years before His glorious Return. The world will not see Him when He comes in His vengeance and wrath. Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 89:46
And this Day will be unexpected, a surprise to everyone, like a thief; to all who have failed to properly discern what all the prophets have Written.

Obviously you, BaBerean, are not really interested in 'searching the scriptures'.
The sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls in Revelation, plus many other prophesies confirm that next there will be a terrible Day that will change the world. A Day similar in magnitude to Noah's flood, but with fire this time.
But no; you are determined to have it all happen when Jesus Returns. Why He needs to strike all the world with His wrath then, perhaps you could explain?

BABerean2 · Oct 17, 2017

keras said:
The Son will use the sun! Psalms 110:5-6, Psalms 50:1-3, Hebrews 10:27, Hebrews 12:29
His Day of wrath will happen years before His glorious Return. The world will not see Him when He comes in His vengeance and wrath. Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 89:46
And this Day will be unexpected, a surprise to everyone, like a thief; to all who have failed to properly discern what all the prophets have Written.

Obviously you, BaBerean, are not really interested in 'searching the scriptures'.
The sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls in Revelation, plus many other prophesies confirm that next there will be a terrible Day that will change the world. A Day similar in magnitude to Noah's flood, but with fire this time.
But no; you are determined to have it all happen when Jesus Returns. Why He needs to strike all the world with His wrath then, perhaps you could explain?

I know you are still pushing your CME idea, that I rejected in the past.

I still love you, even when we agree to disagree.

I appreciate the opportunity to show my point of view, based on God's Word.

Others viewing our conversation here will have to decide which of us is correct.
That is all either of us can ask.

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keras · Oct 17, 2017

BABerean2 said:
I appreciate the opportunity to show my point of view, based on God's Word.

I base my posts on God's Word too!
When Isaiah 30:26-30 says the sun will shine seven times brighter, that is: stronger and hotter,.... as the Lord sieves out the nations for destruction......with devouring flames of fire, along with over 100 + other prophesies that vividly describe this terrible Day; then to discount it and just say it is all part of The Return of Jesus, is a serous mistake.
Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, that a sudden destruction will come upon the ungodly peoples, but we Christians should be aware and prepared for what we are plainly told will happen.

BABerean2 · Oct 17, 2017

keras said:
Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, that a sudden destruction will come upon the ungodly peoples, but we Christians should be aware and prepared for what we are plainly told will happen.

You are talking about 1 Thessalonians 5:3 without placing it in the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.

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keras · Oct 18, 2017

BABerean2 said:
You are talking about 1 Thessalonians 5:3 without placing it in the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.

Why should I?
It is obvious to me that Paul is speaking of the Return in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and the Day of wrath in 1 Thess 5:3. This is confirmed by the many descriptions of these separate events.
Your belief of it all happening at one time, simply does not align with the prophesies.

BABerean2 · Oct 19, 2017

keras said:
Why should I?
It is obvious to me that Paul is speaking of the Return in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and the Day of wrath in 1 Thess 5:3. This is confirmed by the many descriptions of these separate events.

Because the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 reveal that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4. The timing of the event found at the end of chapter 4 occurs on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief" found at the beginning of chapter 5.

1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

The word "But" at the beginning of chapter 5 also shows that the two chapters are connected.

1Th 5:1　 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.　

1Th 5:2　 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
　

Therefore the wrath occurs at His Second Coming, also confirmed in the passage below.

2Th 1:7　 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,　

2Th 1:8　 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.　

2Th 1:9　 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,　

2Th 1:10　 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.　

These connections between the two chapters are shown in the video below.

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keras · Oct 19, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Because the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 reveal that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4. The timing of the event found at the end of chapter 4 occurs on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief" found at the beginning of chapter 5.

Your opinion, based on very flimsy evidence.

Revelation 16:16 The spirits assemble the armies at Armageddon.
[This is a wide valley, just northeast of Mt Carmel, actually quite a distance from Jerusalem – at least 2 days march, I would think.]
Is this event, at to the Return of Jesus, the same as the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath?

Purpose To destroy the armies attacking Jerusalem, not a judgement against the nations.

Location - This attack is just in Israel, not worldwide, as is the Day of vengeance and wrath.

The players- The Anti Christ, beast and false prophet are not mentioned at the Day of vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal and the many other prophesies of that event.

The method - Destruction by Christ’s sharp sword, not the same as the vivid descriptions of a fire judgement, prophesied more than 70 times in the Bible and referred to in Hebrews 10:27, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, 2 Peter 3:7.

It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies. The Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse His Land. Most clearly described in Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’ But the Lord is not seen: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11

Then, much later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He disposes of the armies of the Anti Christ.
Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5
On that glorious Day, Jesus' Return will not be unexpected, as a thief. Anyone who knows the bible will be aware that His Return will happen exactly 1260 days after the AC desecrates the Temple.

BABerean2 · Oct 19, 2017

keras said:
Your opinion, based on very flimsy evidence.

Revelation 16:16 The spirits assemble the armies at Armageddon.
[This is a wide valley, just northeast of Mt Carmel, actually quite a distance from Jerusalem – at least 2 days march, I would think.]
Is this event, at to the Return of Jesus, the same as the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath?

That "flimsy evidence" connects 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, through the phrase "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" to the New Heavens and the New Earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13 and the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16.

The text of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 clearly states that Christ returns in "flaming fire".

I know these texts do not fit your CME theory.
Maybe that is why you say it is "flimsy evidence".
You are attempting to ignore Christ returning in "flaming fire" to make your CME scenario work.

You will have to choose between what the New Testament text clearly says and your CME theory.

How hard is it for someone to write about a Bible topic and them later admit... "I was wrong about that" ?

The answer to the question above is often revealed by the anger and condemnation heaped upon others who dare to question a doctrine.

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keras · Oct 19, 2017

BABerean2 said:
I know these texts do not fit your CME theory.
Maybe that is why you say it is "flimsy evidence".
You are attempting to ignore Christ returning in "flaming fire" to make your CME scenario work.

All the Prophetic Word fits the truth of the Lord's Day of wrath at least 7 years before His Return in glory.
Although some of the prophesies about the Lord's Day of wrath, say He comes in fire, Isaiah 66:15, this does not mean He Returns in fire. Many prophesies about that terrible Day of wrath, say He will not be seen on that Day. Only to His people, not to the world, as 2 Thessalonians 1:10 makes clear.

BABerean2 · Oct 19, 2017

keras said:
this does not mean He Returns in fire.

2Th 1:7　 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,　
2Th 1:8　 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.　
2Th 1:9　 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,　
2Th 1:10　 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.　

Brother Keras,

What does the text above say?

When does the fire come?

Mat 13:36　 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."　
Mat 13:37　 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.　
Mat 13:38　 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.　
Mat 13:39　 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.　
Mat 13:40　 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.　
Mat 13:41　 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,　
Mat 13:42　 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.　
Mat 13:43　 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!　

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The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

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