The 1,000 years of Rev 20: (1) literal, and (2) already occurred

The Times

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Curious what y'all think about this topic.

Thread tag is both: Amillennialism and Historicism.

I propose regarding the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:

(1) it began when Christ's work was completed, when he defeated Satan.

(2) it ended just before the great schism in 1,054 A.D.

(3) the phrase about Satan deceiving the nations refers to his destroying or corrupting the gospel message.​

Here are things I hope we don't discuss; they are off topic (start your own thread if you wish to discuss these):
  1. The 1,000 year yet-future millennium.
  2. The book of Revelation is figurative.
  3. The Bible is not a source of truth, is not trustworthy, etc.

It began when Christ's work was completed and the devil was chained.

My only question is, does the end of the millennium have to be 1054 AD.

If let us say the harvest began when Jesus breathed on his disciples the Holy Ghost, after his resurrection.

Would not the millennium encompass the entire harvest until Christ comes back the second time to raise the dead?
 
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The Times

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20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

From the perspective of the Father, Jesus is sitting on his right side and already ruling men's hearts and minds from above, after all what has the last 2000 years of making disciples of all the world about!

He is ruling with a rod of iron, within a spiritual context of the heart and mind and not a naturalistic physical force imposed on his enemies, rather he rules men by winning of souls through the preaching of the gospel of love.

Paul in the 1 Corinthians 15:25 verse tells us that Jesus must continue to rule with this rod of iron, until he has put all his enemies under his feet, meaning that he will successfully make his enemies his disciples. Didn't he do this with Paul?

Paul also points to the last enemy to be destroyed by Jesus is death itself, because when he comes as he had promised he will raise us up on the last day.

What is the last day?

What 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 speaks about is the entire harvest from Christ the firstfruits to those he will raise when he comes, about the time where he destroys death, at the end of the harvest.

When does Jesus hand over the Kingdom to God the Father?

When he rules with a rod of iron and makes disciples of all the world, that is those who are written in the book of life and then comes back to raise the dead, after the end of the harvest.

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:24 that when he does all this through the works of the cross and his reigning from the heavenly Holy of Holies, as our High Priest, then the END will come. The end means that those who were made subject to his cross have already passed from this temporal life to eternal life to be forever with the Lord, so the subjection to the cross is no longer required because the books are now opened and death and hell itself are thrown in the lake of fire.

This would highly suggest that the millennium must encompass the entire harvest from when Jesus sat on the right hand of the Father to rule with the rod of iron, until he delivers all who were written in the book of life to the Kingdom of the Father. Then Jesus will take those who belong to him to his Father's house in heaven.
 
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Quasar92

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You missed the word "true".

There were millions who never bowed the knee to the papacy. It annihilated as many as 50 million or more of them over the more than 1000 years of papal rule.

None of them ever bore witness to belief in a pretrib rapture.


You don't have a leg to stand on with the opinion you expressed. Prove it.. The RCC was the predominant church authority for more than 1,600 years, as I previously posted. Let me see you provide proof of any other church belief system than Augustine's Amillennialism, until the 19th century.


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Tayla

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So what is one like me to do? Switch to another position where some things aren't adding up either? Well I already got a position like that, don't I?
Thanks for highlighting the essential difficulty with Bible interpretation. And it's not just with Eschatology.

You make the point that, for me, provides reason to be gracious of other views.

I think the (partial) answer is in considering the circumstances of the writers. Likely they were dictating to scribes (how else to explain the knowledge of scripture and mastery of language by uneducated fishermen). They didn't have word processors; once a word was on the scroll it was permanent. It went slow but their thinking went fast; they likely kept losing their train of thought. Perhaps they were cold or hungry.
 
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Tayla

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That is correct. They are all the one and same 1,000 year period of time. The Millennial reign of Jesus on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.
The tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16) is not the temple nor the tabernacle of Moses. See: (1 Chronicles 15:1) (2 Samuel 6:17)
 
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DavidPT

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The tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16) is not the temple nor the tabernacle of Moses. See: (1 Chronicles 15:1) (2 Samuel 6:17)


One thing seems certain, the following that is connected with this is yet to be fulfilled.

Amos 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

This seems to fit with the following time period IMO.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

What's interesting about this is this. and dust shall be the serpent's meat.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life

Obviously the serpent here is meaning satan. But once he gets cast into the LOF, dust will no longer be his meat. That is only relevant to him from the time this curse was pronounced upon him up until he is cast into the LOF. This should tell us the time period in mind in Isaiah 65:17-25, though the new heavens and a new earth will endure forever, some aspects of it will not. Otherwise we have to conclude dust will also be the serpent's meat while in the LOF, which to me makes little sense.

So if Isaiah 65:17-25 is meaning after the 2nd coming, and that the text seems to indicate the serpent is not yet in the LOF at this point, how can there not be a future thousand year period following the return of Christ?
 
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Quasar92

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The tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16) is not the temple nor the tabernacle of Moses. See: (1 Chronicles 15:1) (2 Samuel 6:17)


Reference to "Tabernacle" in Acts 15:16 is reference to the temple David wanted to build, that God gave the authority to do so, to is son, Solomon.


Quasar92
 
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jgr

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You don't have a leg to stand on with the opinion you expressed. Prove it.. The RCC was the predominant church authority for more than 1,600 years, as I previously posted. Let me see you provide proof of any other church belief system than Augustine's Amillennialism, until the 19th century.


Quasar92
Let me see your proof of a pretrib rapture belief amongst Hussites, Lollards, Waldensians, et al who never submitted to Rome, and were some of the 50 million that the papacy set out to exterminate.

It didn't exist. If it had, the Reformers would have recovered it.

They couldn't find it either.
 
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Tayla

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Amillennialism denie the 1,000 year reign o Jesus on earth as well as the pre-trib rapture of the Church, that both of re taught in the Scriptures. Pre-Millennialism is also taught in the Bible.
Thank you for your comments.

Yes, I agree. Amillennialism, premillennialism, and my view are all taught in the Bible.
 
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Tayla

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It began when Christ's work was completed and the devil was chained.

My only question is, does the end of the millennium have to be 1054 AD.

If let us say the harvest began when Jesus breathed on his disciples the Holy Ghost, after his resurrection.

Would not the millennium encompass the entire harvest until Christ comes back the second time to raise the dead?
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

I prefer to interpret the Bible literally. The amillennial view is as you state; the 1,000 is not literal and refers to the Church age.
 
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The Times

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Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

I prefer to interpret the Bible literally. The amillennial view is as you state; the 1,000 is not literal and refers to the Church age.

I just wanted to clear the airways, by saying that I am a futurist, awaiting the Lord's brilliant coming, as he had promised.

I want to further clarify, although I don't hold the Biblical term millennium to be exactly a 1000 years, but I do sincerely consider it as being very literal, in the sense of a time period where the global Church of Jesus Christ are making disciples of all the world, by the preaching of his gospel, before the END of the harvest. So I do consider the millennium literal in the sense of it encompassing the entire harvest from the start to the end.

My reasoning for this is.....

To draw a similarity between how we today use the word several to mean more than a couple, yet it does not imply it to be exactly the number seven. Do you understand, for example, when we say he performed this act on several occasions as to imply he did it more than twice at the very least, yet it could also mean he could have done it 3 times, 4 times......7 times, or even 8 or 9 times.

For the Jewish context of culture back in their context of situation, they too used a figure of speech to delineate a time period of a figure at the very least, that is a millennium and more probable used to imply a figure in excess or multiples of that figure. For example their hand writing was right to left and ours is left to right, so it comes of no surprise that we use the figure of speech several to mean at the very least two and the sematic tribe who wrote left to right would conversely use a figure of speech to imply at the very least a 1000, but more than likely to be greater or even multiples of this figure. In retrospect, it would seldomly mean exactly 1000 years, though the implication is very literal in the sense of a time period that has a beginning and an end.

Let us just use an example of the same writer John, who used the term millennium.

Let us consider the following versus as an example....

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; (Rev 5:11)

You could work out what the final number is by doing the following....

(10000 x 10000) + (1000 x 1000) = 101,000,000

Or

(10000 x 10000 x 1000 x 1000) = 100,000,000,000,000

I am certain that John is using this figure of speech to convey a very literal and large number of Angels, but is he giving us the exact number is the question?

I don't believe so!

So when we look at how he uses the term millennium, we need to look beyond interpreting it as an exact figure, rather as a figure of speech to imply more than a 1000 or even multiples of it. If you considered the above example, he uses those figures to imply a very large number, maybe even greater than those exact figures he gave, which means insurmountable in numbers that would again imply multiples of.

Let us look at the last example.....

And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. (Rev 9:6)

You can take it as meaning 200,000,000 or you can take it as at the very minimum 200,000,000 or a number greater than that or even multiples of that.

It is interesting how John uses 10000 x 10000 for the heavenly Angelic crowd, yet for the locust demonic army he uses 1000 x 1000 to convey a lesser number. Again is he wanting the reader to be focussed on the number, which by the way would render a reply, so what? Or is he trying to convey an army of sizeable proportion to that of the world population if a third part of humanity would be killed, this would imply multiples, that is billions.

Anyway friend, that is my two cents worth. Thanks for replying to me, I appreciate it.
 
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Tayla

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Reference to "abernacle" in Acts 15:16 is reference to the temple David wanted to build, that God gave the authority to do so, to is son, Solomon.
Thank you for your comment.

I did a bit of research on the "tabernacle of David" in (Acts 15:16) and stand corrected. This verse seems to match well with the Septuagint version of (Amos 9:11).

From (Isaiah 16:5) and (Amos 9:11) the "tabernacle of David" seems to mean authority, or rule, or kingdom.

From (1 Chronicles 15:1) and (2 Samuel 6:17) it means David's tabernacle (not the tabernacle of Moses).

Nowhere in the Bible does the "tabernacle of David" refer to the temple; none of the commentaries I consulted say it refers to the temple.
 
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Tayla

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I just wanted to clear the airways, by saying that I am a futurist, awaiting the Lord's brilliant coming, as he had promised.
Thank you for sharing a detailed explanation of your (and others) views.

Yes, I too am awaiting Christ's coming and look forward to spending eternity with him in the utopian new heavens and new earth.
 
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Quasar92

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Let me see your proof of a pretrib rapture belief amongst Hussites, Lollards, Waldensians, et al who never submitted to Rome, and were some of the 50 million that the papacy set out to exterminate.

It didn't exist. If it had, the Reformers would have recovered it.

They couldn't find it either.


I need look to no other sources of those who "do not teach the pre-trib rapture of the Church," than of looking at you. Which has nothing whtever to do with the Biblical facts, that Jesus, Mattjew, Luke, John and Paul, all had a hand in its teachings, as documented below. That some so called Christian authority did not teach it, has no bearing whatever on the fact that it is most certainly there. Let me see your Scriptural proof that it isn't there!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Thank you for your comment.

I did a bit of research on the "tabernacle of David" in (Acts 15:16) and stand corrected. This verse seems to match well with the Septuagint version of (Amos 9:11).

From (Isaiah 16:5) and (Amos 9:11) the "tabernacle of David" seems to mean authority, or rule, or kingdom.

From (1 Chronicles 15:1) and (2 Samuel 6:17) it means David's tabernacle (not the tabernacle of Moses).

Nowhere in the Bible does the "tabernacle of David" refer to the temple; none of the commentaries I consulted say it refers to the temple.


In the KJV, they use the term "tabernacle," and in the NIV, they use the term "tent," in Acts 15:16. They are both referring to the destroyed temple of Solomon.


Quasar92
 
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Tayla

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it is most certainly there. Let me see your Scriptural proof that it isn't there!
Here you go. There is not one verse mentioning the rapture:

Note: At his second coming, Jesus does finally gather together all the souls of the deceased Jewish Christians, and all Christians, who have died throughout the ages, the elect.

(Matthew 24:31) (1 Thessalonians 4:14) (John 14:3) (1 Corinthians 15:23) (1 Thessalonians 4:16) (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
Second coming.​

(2 Thessalonians 2:2)
A lie that the coming of Christ is a bad thing.​
(2 Thessalonians 2:3) (2 Thessalonians 2:8)
When the second coming does come, it is a good thing.​

(Daniel 9:27)
The end of the final 7 years is the martyrdom of Stephen and the scattering of the non-Jewish Christians out of Jerusalem. There is no gap.​

(2 Thessalonians 2:7)
There are wicked spiritual powers led by Satan operating behind the scenes in this world. These will finally be removed at the second coming of Christ.​

(2 Thessalonians 2:8)
Second coming.​

(2 Thessalonians 2:3)
Jewish revolutionaries whose activities led to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. using the temple as their home base.​
 
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Quasar92

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Here you go. There is not one verse mentioning the rapture:

Note: At his second coming, Jesus does finally gather together all the souls of the deceased Jewish Christians, and all Christians, who have died throughout the ages, the elect.

(Matthew 24:31) (1 Thessalonians 4:14) (John 14:3) (1 Corinthians 15:23) (1 Thessalonians 4:16) (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
Second coming.​

(2 Thessalonians 2:2)
A lie that the coming of Christ is a bad thing.​
(2 Thessalonians 2:3) (2 Thessalonians 2:8)
When the second coming does come, it is a good thing.​

(Daniel 9:27)
The end of the final 7 years is the martyrdom of Stephen and the scattering of the non-Jewish Christians out of Jerusalem. There is no gap.​

(2 Thessalonians 2:7)
There are wicked spiritual powers led by Satan operating behind the scenes in this world. These will finally be removed at the second coming of Christ.​

(2 Thessalonians 2:8)
Second coming.​

(2 Thessalonians 2:3)
Jewish revolutionaries whose activities led to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. using the temple as their home base.​


The following is a four post link of the Biblical teaching od the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. I suggest you review thejm carefully for your edification:

.The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


Quasar92
 
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Tayla

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In the KJV, they use the term "tabernacle," and in the NIV, they use the term "tent," in Acts 15:16. They are both referring to the destroyed temple of Solomon.
Thank you for the additional information.

I believe the words "tabernacle" and "tent" mean the same thing.

You should explain to the theologians what (Acts 15:16) means so they can change their commentaries. Don't feel bad; I don't believe them either. We have that in common; two peas in a pod, so to speak.
 
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Tayla

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The following is a four post link of the Biblical teaching od the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. I suggest you review thejm carefully for your edification:
Yes, I used it as a guide for my last post; thank you for sending it.

I could easily spend 20 hours or more writing my response, but time nor space doesn't permit, so I jotted down a few salient points.

And with that we shall part ways, agreeing to disagree on this minor non-essential topic, yet remaining friends in the Lord.
 
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jgr

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I need look to no other sources of those who "do not teach the pre-trib rapture of the Church," than of looking at you. Which has nothing whtever to do with the Biblical facts, that Jesus, Mattjew, Luke, John and Paul, all had a hand in its teachings, as documented below. That some so called Christian authority did not teach it, has no bearing whatever on the fact that it is most certainly there. Let me see your Scriptural proof that it isn't there!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


Quasar92
You're right, you don't need to. But if you do, you find the pretrib cupboard...bare. And it stays bare for well over 1000 years.

A cupboard bare for that long never contained anything to begin with.
 
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