JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

LoveGodsWord · Oct 4, 2017

Hello Ron,
So nice to meet you. Thanks for participating in our thread. Some comments for your consideration below….

Ron Gurley said:
Matthew 12...Jesus answers Sabbath Questions 1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the (legalistic) Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.” 3 But He said to them,
“Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, 4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? 5 Or have you not read in the (Mosaic) Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? 6 But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion, and not a sacrifice,’
you would not have condemned the innocent.

Yes indeed, Jesus came to teach us about the Sabbath when he was with us. The Jews (Pharisees/Lawyers) had placed so many restrictions on the Sabbath commandment that it had become a burden to the people and was nearly impossible to keep (Luke 13:14; John 5:10-18; 9:16; etc.).

Jesus taught us that this was not the purpose of the Sabbath. He taught that….

(1) The Sabbath was made for mankind and that mankind was not created for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27).

(2) He is the Lord of the Sabbath (maker and creator) and that this is His day “Lord's Day” (Mark 2:28)

(3) It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14)

(4) Jesus taught and fellow-shipped with his people on the Sabbath (Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56).

5. He is our example and we are to follow him (1 John 2:6; 1 Peter 2:21)

Similar verses can be shown for the apostles after the death of Jesus (Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)

Ron Gurley said:
Lord of the Sabbath 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” During His ministry, Jesus the God-Man confirmed and clarified all of the "BIG 10" of the Mosaic Law EXCEPT ONE: Exodus 20:8...“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

I do have a problem with that statement above. It is disregarding the scriptures provided in the previous section about what Jesus taught about the Sabbath in the New Testament (Mark 2:27-28; Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56) Not to mention Hebrew Chapter 4 and all the scriptures in the New Testament explaining the purpose of God’s Law (10 commandment) of love towards our God and neighbour. Did you also forget the commandment not to use God’s name in vain?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 4, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
After completion of Jesus' missions, The Mosaic Law was fulfilled. Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to FULFILL. Mark 1:15..(Jesus) and saying, “The time (prophecy) is FULFILLED, and the "kingdom of God" (Jesus) is "at hand";(NOW!) repent (turn toward God) AND believe in the "gospel".” ("gospel"= GOOD NEWS: The Divine Messiah has come down from heaven to save Mankind) Luke 4:21..And He began to say to them (IN TEMPLE), “Today this Scripture has been FULFILLED in your hearing.” 17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,18-19 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed, To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.” Luke 24:44...Post-resurrection Jesus to His closest followers...Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be FULFILLED.”

Absolutely Ron, this was the purpose of the ceremonial laws of Moses or Mosaic laws. These and the prophets and Psalms were prophetic in nature. All the animal sacrifices, Sanctuary and Levitical laws, much of the annual festivals including meat and drink offerings, circumcision from the Mosaic laws were pointing to the true Lamb of God (Jesus) who takes away the sins of the world and the beginning of the New Covenant. These all pointed to the life, death, and resurrection and Priestly ministration of Jesus in the Heavenly Sanctuary of which the one on earth was a copy. When Jesus came they were no longer needed and were nailed to the cross symbolized by the renting of the curtain in the earthly temple at the death of Jesus and the (lots of scripture for this one)..............

HEBREWS 13 [9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be ESTABLISHED WITH GRACE; NOT WITH MEATS, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For THE BODIES OF THOSE BEASTS, WHOSE BLOOD is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] WHEREFORE JESUS ALSO, THAT HE MIGHT SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, suffered without the gate.

But now we are no longer under the law of Moses concerning the meat and drink offerings of Gods holy days, new moons and the sabbaths. Jesus fulfilled the law. We are now under grace.

JOHN 6 [53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.

When we let scripture interpret scripture its very clear what Col.2 is speaking about. The meat and drink offerings of those days are no longer to be kept.

NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

Theres the meat and drink offerings for the sabbath days that Col.2 [16] was speaking of.

EZEKIEL 46 [6] And in the day of the NEW MOON it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish. [7] And he shall prepare a MEAT OFFERING, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and for the lambs according as his hand shall attain unto, and an hin of oil to an ephah.

The meat offering for the new moon that was spoken of in Col.2 [16].

LEVITICUS 23 [4] These are THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is THE LORD'S PASSOVER. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the MEAT OFFERING thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the DRINK OFFERING thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

In all the feast days (holy days) meat and drink offerings were written into the laws of commandments contained in the ordinances. The above scripture points out the holy day of passover when Jesus was crucified.

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Once again, the 1st covenant had ordinances which stood only in meat and drinks which were a figure! A shadow!

EPH.2 [15] HAVING ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

COL. 2 [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] BLOTTING OUT THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

ISAIAH 24 [5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, CHANGED THE ORDINANCE, broken the everlasting covenant.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

But in this “Day of the Lord” scripture it seems the many will go on believing what they’ve been taught by their sunday mourning pulpiteers. They will continue to believe the commandments mentioned in Eph.2 are the 10 commandments and not the law of commandments contained in the ordinances

The “many” claim that the sabbath was the shadow of Christ. But what do the scriptures say

COL.2 [14] BLOTTING OUT THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.[16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:[17] WHICH ARE A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the body is of Christ.

The handwriting of ORDINANCES {meat and drink offerings} has been blotted out. They were the shadow

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The first covenant had ORDINANCES which stood ONLY in meat and drink offerings which were a figure. A shadow

EZEKIEL 46 [14] And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a MEAT OFFERING continually by a perpetual ORDINANCE unto the LORD.

Meat offering by ordinance. There ya go. Hebrews 9 was ofcourse correct

HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Hebrews 10 says it all. The shadow of the law was the offerings (the meat and drink offerings). Hebrews 10{1} says that plain and clear. The Word does not say the Sabbath was the shadow of Christ which really makes no sense at all

NUMBERS 19 [2] This is the ORDINANCE OF THE LAW which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

Before Christ the red heifers lived their lives in fear and trembling, thinking they might be next offering. No worries no more.

JOHN 6 [55] For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is DRINK indeed.

We are no longer under the law concerning the meat and drink offerings{the shadow}. Jesus FULFILLED that portion of the law. Its all grace now! Jesus Himself said “For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is DRINK indeed”.

COL. 2 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an HOLYDAY, or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS:

Col.2{16} is used by all sunday mornin denominations so as to rid themselves of Gods sabbath day and His holy days. Its also used to go against Gods laws concerning eating unclean things such as the portly porker. Can their doctrines be found in the scriptures by looking at the followers of the RISEN Christ?

ACTS 18 [20] When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; [21] But bade them farewell, saying, I MUST BY ALL MEANS KEEP THIS FEAST THAT COMETH IN JERUSALEM: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

Not here. Here we find Paul keeping one of the feast days in Jersalem long after Christ had been crucified

1 COR. 5 [6] Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? [7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: [8] THEREFORE LET US KEEP THE FEAST, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

This also is after Christ had risen. They were still keeping the Feast of unleavened bread but not as they did before. Before Christ there was to be no leven in the house. After Christ was crucified the laws contained in the ordinances were nailed to the cross. So have yourself a peanut butter and jelly.

ACTS 17 [2] AND PAUL, AS HIS MANNER WAS, went in unto them, and three SABBATH DAYS reasoned with them out of the scriptures,[3] Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Not here either. Paul as his manner was... still keeping the sabbath

ACTS 10 [11] And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: [12] Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. [13] And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. [14] BUT PETER SAID, NOT SO, LORD; FOR I HAVE NEVER EATEN ANY THING THAT IS COMMON OR UNCLEAN.

Once again, not here either. Peter refused to eat the unclean thing even after the risen Christ.

ACTS 10 [28] And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but GOD HATH SHEWED ME THAT I SHOULD NOT CALL ANY MAN COMMON OR UNCLEAN.

Verse 28 explains the great sheet. No man is now unclean

JOEL 1 [13] Gird yourselves, and lament, YE PRIESTS: howl, YE MINISTERS of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for THE MEAT OFFERING AND THE DRINK OFFERING IS WITHHOLDEN FROM THE HOUSE OF YOUR GOD. [14] Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the Lord your God, and cry unto the Lord, [15] Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Don’t look good for some, come the Day of the Lord.

NUMBERS 18 [8] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, BY AN ORDINANCE for ever.[9] This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: EVERY OBLATION of theirs, EVERY MEAT OFFERING of theirs, and EVERY SIN OFFERING of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.

Above scripture confirms that the offerings are also called oblations

ISAIAH 1 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your new moons and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Bring no more vain oblations in the new moons and the sabbath and feast days. WHY? Because Jesus nailed these offerings (oblations) to the cross. The sabbath, the new moons, and holydays (feastdays) were not nailed to the cross nor were the 10 commandments.

HEBREWS 10 [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN THOU WOULDEST NOT, NEITHER HADST PLEASURE THEREIN; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 10 explains exactly what Isaiah 1 was speaking about. He takes away the 1st covenant {the meat and drink offerings} and established the 2nd covenant {the body of Christ}

The new covenant is all about the blood of Christ. Not changing the law....but fulfilling the law

ZECH.9 [9] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, THY KING COMETH UNTO THEE: HE IS JUST, AND HAVING SALVATION; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.[10] And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.[11] As for thee also, BY THE BLOOD OF THY COVENANT I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water

Verse 9 definately prophecies of the coming Jesus. Verse 11, Jesus is called the blood of thy covenant

HEBREWS 12 [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,[24] And to Jesus THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, AND TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

New covenant...blood

LUKE 22 [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, THIS CUP IS THE NEW TESTAMENT IN MY BLOOD, which is shed for you.

New testament...blood

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

old covenant...blood of goats.....The meat and drink offerings

HEBREWS [4] FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.[8] Above when he said, sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

He taketh away the first {covenant}, that he may establish the second.

JOHN 6 [53] [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.

And theres the 2nd

MATTHEW 5 [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus did not come to change or destroy the God's Law (10 commandments). The sabbath is still to be kept. He came to fulfil what was written of Him in the books of the law (Mosaic law) prophets and Psalms.

May God Bless you as you seek him through His Word

LoveGodsWord · Oct 4, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
Jesus rose on a Sunday. Most Christ-followers honor the resurrected Jesus on the NEW first day of the week. Jesus and his chosen 11 apostles (messengers) were all devout Jews and attended temple on a Saturday. But Jesus CHANGED THE WORLD! Sacred traditions of worship on Sunday quickly developed in the early "CHURCH".

Yes many do follow the tradition of Sunday worship, yet there is not one scripture in all of God’s Word that says we are to follow Sunday in place of God’s 4th commandment that asks us to keep the 7th Day as a holy day. You are also correct in stating that Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of man. This should ring alarm bells because Jesus gives a warning in His Word about following the traditions of men that break the commandments of God. Jesus says it is breaking God’s Law and sin is the transgression of God’s Law (10 commandments; 1 John 3:4). God's Word tells us that if we knowingly follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God.

Matthew 15:3-9
3, But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God <SIN; 1 John 3:4> by your tradition? 4, For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother <5th commandment Exodus 20:12> and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death. 5, But ye say, whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou might be profited by me; 6, and honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7, You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8, This people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9, But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men <Not following God>.

Who should we obey the teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but when a knowledge of the truth come commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel. Today while we hear his voice as we only have today.. Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near, let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments" If we love him we will follow what he tells us. This includes his 4th commandment which is the 7th Day Sabbath which is one of the 10 (Exodus 20:1-17), because if we break one we stand guilty before God of breaking all of them (James 2:8-12).

Love is the fulfilling of God's Law and why we need a new heart to be born again to follow him who loves all. Only through love can we follow him. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

Bob S · Oct 4, 2017

Sorry, I double posted.

Bob S · Oct 4, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
Matthew 12...Jesus answers Sabbath Questions
1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
2 But when the (legalistic) Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
3 But He said to them,
“Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,
4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?
5 Or have you not read in the (Mosaic) Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple
break the Sabbath and are innocent?
6 But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
7 But if you had known what this means,
‘I desire compassion, and not a sacrifice,’
you would not have condemned the innocent.

Hi Ron, thanks for posting. Your post made me realize that God allowed men to break the Sabbath commandment. I have always contended that the Sabbath was a ritual or ceremonial law as compared with the remainder of the 10 commandments. Nine of the 10 deal with how we treat God and our fellow man. The Sabbath command is one remembrance. They were to remember creation and how they were led out of Egypt. The nine dealing with how Israel treated their fellow man were moral issues and there were no exceptions. There were many exceptions concerning the Sabbath issue.

Lord of the Sabbath

8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

During His ministry, Jesus the God-Man confirmed and clarified all of the "BIG 10" of the Mosaic Law EXCEPT ONE:
Exodus 20:8...“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

After completion of Jesus' missions, The Mosaic Law was fulfilled.

The meaning of fulfilled as I have learned it is bring to an end or to satisfy the requirements. That is why Paul, in his writings, was so adamant that Christians are not under theh law. The law was until Jesus. Gal 3:19

The law of Moses was not given to Israel as the way to salvation, it was given to them as a way of living in the promised land. Ex 19:5-6. Since the law is not salvational how can anyone twist any part of the law as being salvational. Well they cannot, but they continue to try to convince us.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to FULFILL.

Mark 1:15..(Jesus) and saying,
“The time (prophecy) is FULFILLED,
and the "kingdom of God" (Jesus) is "at hand";(NOW!)
repent (turn toward God) AND believe in the "gospel".”
("gospel"= GOOD NEWS: The Divine Messiah has come down from heaven to save Mankind)

Luke 4:21..And He began to say to them (IN TEMPLE), “Today this Scripture has been FULFILLED in your hearing.”
17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18-19
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

Luke 24:44...Post-resurrection Jesus to His closest followers...Now He said to them,
“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be FULFILLED.”

Amen!

LoveGodsWord · Oct 6, 2017

Bob S said:
Abraham was saved by faith in God. Was Abraham perfect and did Abraham have what LGW keeps stating the "10 commandments"? My Bible tells me that he did not have the 10 commandments and that is found in Deut 5:1 Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors.

For Deuteronomy 5:1-3, the covenant was not made with the father's because they were all dead. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. This scripture does not say that God's people before Sinai did not have the 10 commandments and the ceremonial laws of Moses and that no one ever had them or practiced them before Sinai.

What makes you think Abraham did not know the 10 commandments or the ceremonial laws for sin offerings? What does God's Word say...........

Did Abraham keep God's commandments?

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: “The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham ‘kept my requirements [ mismarti ], my commands [ miswotay ], my decrees [ huqqotay ] and my laws [ wetorotay ]’ (v. 5).

“It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: ‘Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [ mismarto ], his decrees [ huqqotayw ], his laws [ mispatayw ] and his commands [ miswotayw ]’ . . .

“Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer’s ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, ‘Abraham obeyed me’ (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of ‘keeping the law,’ the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law” (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

Were the ceremonial laws for sin offerings known before God gave the 10 commandments and Moses wrote the ceremonial laws for sin? Now it must be very clear, if God's people were practicing ceremonial offerings for sin they would have known God's Law (10 commandments) because sin is the transgression of God's Law and the knowledge of what sin is (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, James 2:11). Otherwise why the need to offer up sin offering if they did not know what sin was?

Before God's 10 commandments and the ceremonial laws of Moses were given....

Genesis 4:2-7
2, And she again bare his brother Abel.2 And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3, And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4, And Abel, he also brought of the first-lings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5, But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6, And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7, If thou do well, shalt thou not be accepted ? and if thou do not well, sin lies at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Genesis 8:20
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Exodus 10:25
But Moses said, "You must also let us have sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice them to the LORD our God.

Abraham saved the same way everyone is and that is by faith that leads to obedience...

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

So it is quite clear that God's people before Mount Sinai had God's Law and the ceremonial laws for sin offerings pointing to Jesus.......

Bob S said:
LGW, you keep saying that we are saved by grace and I totally agree and then you add a "but". Your but is that if we do not observe the Israelite Sabbath we will be lost. Please do not deny it because I can go back to many of your posts and show you the scripture you use to hammer that concept.

Nope I only say we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God lest any man should boast. There is no buts at all. All I have stated is that if you are living in a life of unrepentant sin you are still in your sins and do not know him who loves us. Whosoever commits sin has nether seen him or knows him.

Bob S said:
In all your posts you have not answered the fact that Paul wrote that the 10 commandments were, past tense, temporary.

Bob, this was already answered earlier. I assume your referring to 2 Corinthians 3:7-11. I am happy to share God’s Word with you though so do not mind you asking again. Let's have a look at 2 Corinthians Chapter 3 again.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11 is referring to the Old and New Covenants.

The context for reference is 2 Corinthians 3:3 talking about the “Believer” (in God’s Word) “Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle (Who? The “Believer” is a living message of Christ) of Christ ministered by us, not written with ink (who? The believer) but with the Spirit of the living God. Not in tables of stone but the fleshly tables of the heart (see Hebrews 8:10-12 New Covenant promise).

Let’s look at the rest of the chapter?

v6, Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament (Covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit giveth life.
v7, But if the ministration of death, written and graven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
v8, How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
v9, For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
v10, For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
v11, For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
v12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
v13, And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
v14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
v15, But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16, Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

What is the ministration of death graven in stone? It is God’s Law (10 commandments; Exodus 20:1-17; 31:18; 32:16). Why were they called the ministration of death? Because they give the knowledge of sin and righteousness (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:7). They made nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19) but showed what sin was if the God’s Law was broken the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). It was to teach us that we are all sinners in need of a saviour and that all the world may become guilty before God (Romans 3:10; 19; Isaiah 64:6). It leads us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24; Romans 3:28). The glory of the one passes to the glory of the other. They both work together to bring the sinner to salvation. This is the difference between the true Gospel and the counterfeit. The counterfeit Gospel is one that tries to separate God’s Law from the cross but without God’s Law no one has the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness.

Why is God's Law important to helping someone to have faith in Christ alone?

Because it is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Rom 3:20; 7:7). If we do away with God's Law we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12).

God's Law shows us that we are sinners in need of a savior. God's Law was given to us that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Rom 3:19). It shows us that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves from this disease that we have within us so that we can by Faith lay hold of the promises of God's Words so that Jesus can save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save the righteous (those that think they do not need saving) but sinners (those that know their need of saving) (Matt 9:12-13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32) God's Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be accountable to God.

The Law of God is the only way of showing us who we truly are, sinners in need of a Saviour and in this condition we can see for the first time Him who loved us and washed us in His own blood and by faith only lay hold of the promises of God’s Word. (2Pet 1:4) It is here as we believe God that he changes us from living a life of breaking God's Law to a life of walking with him. It is through the operation of God through Love because he first loved us that we follow Jesus not for salvation but because of love. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal sinful mind) but after the spirit and why Jesus says to his followers, "If you love me keep the commandments" (John 14:15).

People cannot see that this is the operation of God in the believer and assume God's people believe they are saved by their works, when in fact Jesus is saving us from our sins to walk in newness of life in fulfilment of His new Covenant promise (Heb 8:10-12)...... Gods Sheep hear His Voice salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's Law (1John 3:4) whosoever is living in sin has neither seen him nor known him (1John 3:6)

You say that the 10 commandments are transitory or temporary. This is correct in that they lead us to Jesus. However does this mean they are abolished? Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law (Romans 3:31). Salvation is being saved from sin not in sin. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). Those that are still in their sins have neither seen him or know him (1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12).

The 7th Day Sabbath is one of God’s 10 if we knowingly break it we are guilty of sin (James 2:8-12; 1 John 3:4). Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching over the Word of God. If we love Jesus we should follow him who loves us (John 14:15).

Now you tell me how your question has not been answered?

Bob S said:
You use scripture like 1Jn 3: 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness to try to say that the 10 are the irrefutable standard that defines sin. Verse 4 does not tell us that. It says nothing about the 10. You have interpreted that verse to try to make it sound like you wished it to be.

1 John 3:4 is very clear what it is talking about...
v4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:3-10
Is about purifying ourselves as Jesus is pure... then defines sin as the transgression of God's Law and if we are sinning we do not know God.

More clarity.....

v14 is talking about Murder which is the 6th commandment of God's Law (Exodus 20:13)

So yes we are talking about the 10 commandments... Still not sure if it is God's Law (10 commandments)? What do other scriptures say?

James talks specifically about God's Law (10 commandments) naming Adultery and Murder (killing) and say that if we break God's Law it is sin v9 and goes on to say as did John that if you break God's Law you sin and you are transgressing God's Law....

James 2:8-12
8, If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:9, But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law <1 John 3:4 Sin is the transgression of God's Law (10 commandments); Who's Law is James talking about?>.12, So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Paul says that God's Law (10 commandments) gives us a knowledge of what sin is mentioning the 10 commandment (Exodus 20:17).....

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

So yep seems like James and Paul all agree with John that sin is the transgression of God's Law.......

Bob S said:
If Abraham was saved without the law of Moses why is it Christians cannot be saved by the law that Jesus gave us? Jn15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. Why is it that you cannot use Jesus commands as being what 1John was referring? 1John even goes on further in the chapter to explain the commands we are to keep and tells us if we keep those commands we belong to the truth.

Already Answered above...

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The context to 1 John is v3-14 which is talking about sin is breaking God's Law and those in unrepentant sin do not know God.

Bob S said:
Who should I believe LGW? Your interpretation puts me under the law of Moses. Yes, if we use your scenario then the Messianics are correct and you are picking and choosing what laws from the laws given only to Israel. You know, I think I have a 100% better chance believing the words of Paul, John and 1John than what you have presented on the forum. One of us is sincerely mistaken. I was once influenced by the writings of Ellen White. The Holy Spirit led me away from her to Sola Scriptura.

Actually my interpretation of God's Word is provided by the Holy Spirit. It is based on Sola Scriptura. You are only under the Law if you stand guilty before God of breaking it (Romans 3:19; Romans 6:14). God's Israel are those that have God's Word and believe and follow it. If you do not then you are not a part of God's Israel. The New Covenant is not for unbelievers. Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments and this is the victory that overcomes the world even our faith in his promises to save us. If the son shall set you free you shall be free indeed. He holds out his hand to all today, if you hear his voice harden not your heart. Can you hear his voice? With an everlasting love have I loved you and with loving kindness have a drawn you. Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts let him return to the Lord and he will abundantly pardon. Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand. Fear God and give glory to him for the hour of God's judgement has come...

Bob S said:
I wish you every blessing and hope to see you in paradise.

As I do you...

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word...

Bob S · Oct 6, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
For Deuteronomy 5:1-3, the covenant was not made with the father's because they were all dead. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. This scripture does not say that God's people before Sinai did not have the 10 commandments and the ceremonial laws of Moses and that no one ever had them or practiced them before Sinai.
What makes you think Abraham did not know the 10 commandments or the ceremonial laws for sin offerings? What does God's Word say...........

Boy, that is one way of getting out of the real truth of the statement in Deut5. As far as God's requirements for sin is concerned , God commanded Adam to kill and offer aimals soon after sin entered His life. In all of history before Sinai we have no record of any of the other requirements except for sacrificing. I think you should read the passage once mor LGW. I know it does not fit into your theory, but to twist it to mean what you are trying to is a real s t r e a c h. Deut 5:1 Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors.

Did Abraham keep God's commandments?

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

It is very plain that God made different laws, statues and commandments for different people. So, where there was no law there was no sin. For instance Abraham was not given the Sabbath command, so he didn't commit any sin by not observing. Christians have not been given the Sabbath command, so where there is no law there is no sin. Now if you believe you are under the law given to Israel only then you had better bone up on the rules that pertain to the ones required not just the clean meat law and your modified false tithing law, but all the other rules that are part of the package.

The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: “The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham ‘kept my requirements [ mismarti ], my commands [ miswotay ], my decrees [ huqqotay ] and my laws [ wetorotay ]’ (v. 5).

Abraham's requirements did not include all the requirements given to Israel and you should be the first one to realize such.

“Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer’s ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, ‘Abraham obeyed me’ (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of ‘keeping the law,’ the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law” (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

Certainly Abraham obeyed God. The fact is there is no account that God ever required him to obey the laws given to Israel. You are adding your own beliefs to scripture.

God's Law shows us that we are sinners in need of a savior.

Jesus is God and He asks us to keep His commands like He kept His Father's commands. His commands are found in 1Jn3:19-24.

God's Law was given to us that every mouth may be stopped,

I presume you are writing about Torah which was given to Israel and only Israel as the way they were to live in the land God gave them. It was not given to "US". Deut 5:1-3

The Law of God is the only way of showing us who we truly are, sinners in need of a Saviour

Yes, the laws Jesus asks us to keep does a perfect job of revealing sin Trying to add all of Torah law which was fulfilled at Calvary

People cannot see that this is the operation of God in the believer and assume God's people believe they are saved by their works,

I am not the one who hammers away at works by riting that if we don't keep the Israelit only Sabbath we will loose our eternal inheritance. That is salvation by works my friend. That is what you believe and spread.

when in fact Jesus is saving us from our sins to walk in newness of life in fulfilment of His new Covenant promise (Heb 8:10-12)...... Gods Sheep hear His Voice salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's Law (1John 3:4) whosoever is living in sin has neither seen him nor known him (1John 3:6)

Where there are no requirements there is no sin.

You say that the 10 commandments are transitory or temporary. This is correct in that they lead us to Jesus.

Amen brother. The next sentence goes like this:
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. We are not under the Law. My point completely. We are under the new covenant and Jesus law is love, love and more love. this is the great theme of the new covenant. This is how we know we belong to the truth. 1JN3:19

However does this mean they are abolished?

What does the word fulfilled mean LGW? What does the word temporary or transitory mean to you?

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law (Romans 3:31).

It was 101 course telling us we are sinners. The Holy Spirit convicts me and warns me when I do or about to do something wrong to Go or my fellow man. He has never convicted me to observe days or rituals made for only one nation, Israel.

The 7th Day Sabbath is one of God’s 10 if we knowingly break it we are guilty of sin (James 2:8-12; 1 John 3:4).

God's 10 as you put it were for Israel only. Deut5:1-3 Salvation by the works of the Law. Yep, Paul speaks a lot about it. He even told the Galatians that they were foolish. They started out in faith and became legalistic law keepers.

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching over the Word of God. If we love Jesus we should follow him who loves us (John 14:15).

Yes, the new covenant tells us we should not forsake assembling ourselves together. It has no advice as to when or where. I take that statement as a command. Sunday is not commanded and by the same token it is not commanded not to do. That is something created by churches that demand the keeping of old covenant days. Of course there are churches that tell us Sunday is the Christian Sabbath. They are just as mistaken as are those that tell us we are to keep Sabbath

Now you tell me how your question has not been answered?

Thanks, the only problems to your answers are found in my answers.

1 John 3:4 is very clear what it is talking about...
v4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The "law" we transgress is found in verse 23

1 John 3:3-10
Is about purifying ourselves as Jesus is pure... then defines sin as the transgression of God's Law and if we are sinning we do not know God.

The "law" we transgress is found in verse 23

More clarity.....

v14 is talking about Murder which is the 6th commandment of God's Law (Exodus 20:13)

Murder was a law long before Sinai.

So yes we are talking about the 10 commandments... Still not sure if it is God's Law (10 commandments)? What do other scriptures say?

Please don't include me in "we".

James says talks specifically about God's Law (10 commandments) naming Adultery and Murder (killing) and say that if we break God's Law it is sin v9 and goes on to say as did John that if you break God's Law you sin you are transgressing God's Law....

Laws dealing with morality are forever. Do you believe the 10 were a complete list of sins man commits? The 10 do not even mention the law of love.

Actually my interpretation of God's Word is provided by the Holy Spirit. It is based on Sola Scriptura.

It is the SDA interpretation of Sola Scriptura

You are only under the Law if you stand guilty before God of breaking it (Romans 3:19; 6:14). God's Israel are those that have God's Word and believe and follow it. If you do not then you are not a part of God's Israel.

God's Israel is defunct along with the covenant He gave them it is history. I am grafted into Jesus. I am under Jesus covenant.

The New Covenant is not for unbelievers. Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments and this is the victory that overcomes the world even our faith in his promises to save us. If the son shall set you free you shall be free indeed. He holds out his hand to all today, if you hear his voice harden not your heart. Can you hear his voice? With an everlasting love have I loved you and with loving kindness have a drawn you.

So, to sum it all up I need to change to your beliefs by keeping the old covenant now defunct Sabbath or I will face bad news in the judgement. Oh yes, I also have to pay the SDA church a modified false tithe because they are the true remnant and I also have to stop getting that awful bacon on my salad. Things cherry picked by the SDA church as gospel that somehow became salvational issues.

Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts let him return to the Lord and he will abundantly pardon. Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand. Fear God and give glory to him for the hour of God's judgement has come...

I can read between the lines LGW and I know that you include verses like this one to try to tell us who do not cow tow to your belief system that we are wicked, too bad you have been convinced of that.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 6, 2017

Bob S said:
Boy, that is one way of getting out of the real truth of the statement in Deut5. As far as God's requirements for sin is concerned , God commanded Adam to kill and offer aimals soon after sin entered His life. In all of history before Sinai we have no record of any of the other requirements except for sacrificing. I think you should read the passage once mor LGW. I know it does not fit into your theory, but to twist it to mean what you are trying to is a real s t r e a c h. Deut 5:1 Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors. It is very plain that God made different laws, statues and commandments for different people. So, where there was no law there was no sin. For instance Abraham was not given the Sabbath command, so he didn't commit any sin by not observing. Christians have not been given the Sabbath command, so where there is no law there is no sin. Now if you believe you are under the law given to Israel only then you had better bone up on the rules that pertain to the ones required not just the clean meat law and your modified false tithing law, but all the other rules that are part of the package.
Abraham's requirements did not include all the requirements given to Israel and you should be the first one to realize such. Certainly Abraham obeyed God. The fact is there is no account that God ever required him to obey the laws given to Israel. You are adding your own beliefs to scripture. Jesus is God and He asks us to keep His commands like He kept His Father's commands. His commands are found in 1Jn3:19-24. I presume you are writing about Torah which was given to Israel and only Israel as the way they were to live in the land God gave them. It was not given to "US". Deut 5:1-3 Yes, the laws Jesus asks us to keep does a perfect job of revealing sin Trying to add all of Torah law which was fulfilled at Calvary I am not the one who hammers away at works by riting that if we don't keep the Israelit only Sabbath we will loose our eternal inheritance. That is salvation by works my friend. That is what you believe and spread Where there are no requirements there is no sin. Amen brother. The next sentence goes like this: 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. We are not under the Law. My point completely. We are under the new covenant and Jesus law is love, love and more love. this is the great theme of the new covenant. This is how we know we belong to the truth. 1JN3:19 What does the word fulfilled mean LGW? What does the word temporary or transitory mean to you? It was 101 course telling us we are sinners. The Holy Spirit convicts me and warns me when I do or about to do something wrong to Go or my fellow man. He has never convicted me to observe days or rituals made for only one nation, Israel. God's 10 as you put it were for Israel only. Deut5:1-3 Salvation by the works of the Law. Yep, Paul speaks a lot about it. He even told the Galatians that they were foolish. They started out in faith and became legalistic law keepers. Yes, the new covenant tells us we should not forsake assembling ourselves together. It has no advice as to when or where. I take that statement as a command. Sunday is not commanded and by the same token it is not commanded not to do. That is something created by churches that demand the keeping of old covenant days. Of course there are churches that tell us Sunday is the Christian Sabbath. They are just as mistaken as are those that tell us we are to keep Sabbath Thanks, the only problems to your answers are found in my answers.
The "law" we transgress is found in verse 23 The "law" we transgress is found in verse 23 More clarity.....Murder was a law long before Sinai. Please don't include me in "we". Laws dealing with morality are forever. Do you believe the 10 were a complete list of sins man commits? The 10 do not even mention the law of love.It is the SDA interpretation of Sola Scriptura God's Israel is defunct along with the covenant He gave them it is history. I am grafted into Jesus. I am under Jesus covenant. So, to sum it all up I need to change to your beliefs by keeping the old covenant now defunct Sabbath or I will face bad news in the judgement. Oh yes, I also have to pay the SDA church a modified false tithe because they are the true remnant and I also have to stop getting that awful bacon on my salad. Things cherry picked by the SDA church as gospel that somehow became salvational issues. I can read between the lines LGW and I know that you include verses like this one to try to tell us who do not cow tow to your belief system that we are wicked, too bad you have been convinced of that.

Hi Bob, thanks for your post. I noticed you are just repeating the same verses that have already been answered in post # 426 above so I feel no need to comment on this one as everything has already been answered with scripture, unless you have anything else to add? Only scripture is Sola Scriptura. We will have to agree to disagree on your interpretation. It is written let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged.

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

Copperhead · Oct 13, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
Yes many do follow the tradition of Sunday worship, yet there is not one scripture in all of God’s Word that says we are to follow Sunday in place of God’s 4th commandment that asks us to keep the 7th Day as a holy day. You are also correct in stating that Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of man.

I would take that a step further. There is no mandate in scripture that worship services be held at a meeting location on Shabbat. That folks went to the synagogue on Shabbat was also tradition. Shabbat observance was to be both as an individual and a family in the home. Virtually all the meetings and services of the early Church were in the home anyway. And primarily at the Saturday evening Havdalah, which is the closing of Shabbat, and was evidenced in Acts 20.

I think many miss the main point. Even science has shown that the human body functions best when there is 1 day of rest in 7. And that was the main prescription by YHVH, that Shabbat be a day of rest. But even then, the Shabbat, like all the other commandments, take a back seat when it comes to preservation of life. Yeshua healing on Shabbat, walking along and eating grains they picked, etc all fall into that category. And that is why Yeshua used the example of David and his cohorts eating the temple bread when they were hungry. That was a commandment no - no. But Yeshua was making the point that preservation of life supersedes the commandments.

Also doing things for others unable to do for themselves (handicapped, elderly, etc) out of love and concern would not violate the intent of Shabbat.

I applaud anyone who feels that they should observe Shabbat literally. I also applaud those who set aside another day in the same way. I definitely do not endorse using this issue as some sort of litmus test regarding anyone's position with the Lord. We are only justified by Yeshua, not our works. And many times, it becomes an argument about who is holier than who, which has its source in pride, which is the deadliest sin of all. It can lead to straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel.

Bob S · Oct 13, 2017

Copperhead said:
I would take that a step further. There is no mandate in scripture that worship services be held at a meeting location on Shabbat. That folks went to the synagogue on Shabbat was also tradition. Shabbat observance was to be both as an individual and a family in the home. Virtually all the meetings and services of the early Church were in the home anyway. And primarily at the Saturday evening Havdalah, which is the closing of Shabbat, and was evidenced in Acts 20.

I think many miss the main point. Even science has shown that the human body functions best when there is 1 day of rest in 7. And that was the main prescription by YHVH, that Shabbat be a day of rest. But even then, the Shabbat, like all the other commandments, take a back seat when it comes to preservation of life. Yeshua healing on Shabbat, walking along and eating grains they picked, etc all fall into that category. And that is why Yeshua used the example of David and his cohorts eating the temple bread when they were hungry. That was a commandment no - no. But Yeshua was making the point that preservation of life supersedes the commandments.

Also doing things for others unable to do for themselves (handicapped, elderly, etc) out of love and concern would not violate the intent of Shabbat.

I applaud anyone who feels that they should observe Shabbat literally. I also applaud those who set aside another day in the same way. I definitely do not endorse using this issue as some sort of litmus test regarding anyone's position with the Lord. We are only justified by Yeshua, not our works. And many times, it becomes an argument about who is holier than who, which has its source in pride, which is the deadliest sin of all. It can lead to straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel.

Oh so apropos. I would not be on here debating if it ere not for their insistence that it is salvational to observe a day. This goes for those who think Sunday is somehow sacred and if we do not belong to their group we are lost.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 13, 2017

Bob S said:
I would not be on here debating if it ere not for their insistence that it is salvational to observe a day.

Perhaps someone does insist that. Perhaps also many do not insist that.
For perspective and clarity Bob S,
IS IT SALVATIONAL to oppose or to not oppose JESUS ?
(with no reference at all to any of the commandments)

LoveGodsWord · Oct 16, 2017

Copperhead said:
LoveGodsWord said: Yes many do follow the tradition of Sunday worship, yet there is not one scripture in all of God’s Word that says we are to follow Sunday in place of God’s 4th commandment that asks us to keep the 7th Day as a holy day. You are also correct in stating that Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of man.

Copperhead replied: I applaud anyone who feels that they should observe Shabbat literally. I also applaud those who set aside another day in the same way. I definitely do not endorse using this issue as some sort of litmus test regarding anyone's position with the Lord. We are only justified by Yeshua, not our works. And many times, it becomes an argument about who is holier than who, which has its source in pride, which is the deadliest sin of all. It can lead to straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel.

Hi Copperhead,

I agree with most of your post. I will just comment on one section above for your consideration. God's Law (10 commandments) of love is summed up as our love for God and man (Matthew 22:36-40).

So by saying this is someone fulfilling their duty of loving God or his neighbor if they break His commandments? Or is someone in a saved state if they are practicing known unrepentant sin? These are interesting questions. No one is saved by trying to keep God's Law. Everyone is only saved by God's grace through faith and not of ourselves it is only a gift of God as we believe His Word but obedience is indeed the fruit of faith and if it is not in the life of those profession his name they are not believers and do not have saving faith and are in danger of the judgment.

Let's look at the scriptures.................

What is sin..................?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

James 2:11
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Sin is breaking of God's Law (10 commandments).........

Is someone saved who is practicing unrepentant sin........................?

Hebrew 10:27-28
26, For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 6:4-8
4, For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7, For the earth which drinks in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: 8, But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

1 John 3:3-10
3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.4, Whosoever commits sin transgress also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. 7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8, He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10, In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

Ezekiel 18:20-26,
20, The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21, But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22, All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23, Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24, But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25, Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26, When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9, Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revellers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
19, Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21, Envying’s, murders, drunkenness, revelling’s, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Peter 4:6
4, For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5, And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6, And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly;

19, While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20, For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21, For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22, But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Romans 6:18-23
18, Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19, I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20, For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21, What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22, But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:13,
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.

James 2:8-12,
8, If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: 9, But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12, So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Jeremiah 31:30
But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Ephesians 4:21-24
21, If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22, That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23, And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24, And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

1 Peter 1:15-16
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Those who do not turn from unrepentant sin do not know God's love and will not be saved………….

How do we know who God's people are.........................?

1 John 2:3-4
3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4, He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:3-10
3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure. 4, whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. 7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8, He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed <1 Peter 1:23> remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10, In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

God’s people through faith that works by love do not practice sin. This is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil and because of their love for Jesus then keep his commandments (See also; John 14:15; 15:10; Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14)

Let's pull it all together....

Sin is breaking any of God's 10 commandments. If we knowingly break any of God's commandments and do not repent then we are in unrepentant sin. Those that are knowingly breaking any of God's 10 commandments and are in unrepentant sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God. (Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8; James 2:8-12; 1John 3:3-10; Acts 17:30-31)

God has 10 commandments; if we knowingly break any one of them we stand guilty before God of committing sin and breaking His Law. This includes the 4th commandment the 7th Day Sabbath which is one of the ten (Exodus 20:1-17; James 2:11; Romans 3:20; 7:7; 1John 3:4).

God’s true believers keep all of God’s commandments (including the 7th Day Sabbath) through their faith that works by love in God’s Word. Love is the fulfilling of God’s law in them because they walk be faith that works by love in His Spirit.

In times of ignorance God winks at but now calls on all men everywhere to repent and seek him today while he may be found. Tomorrow may be too late...

Hope this is helpful.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 16, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
Hope this is helpful.

There is a hope that is not disappointed,
this might be here,
but in general, due to the huge numbers of unsaved readers/visitors, hope 'here' is usually disappointed (since the hope is not placed in Yahweh nor in Jesus Messiah)...

For example that may be pertinent,
when
anyone/someone becomes a citizen of Israel,
do they then follow the laws of Israel,
or do they subvert Israel, seeking to destroy it ?
Oh, either way, whatever they do,
they might legally become a citizen,
but then what ?

IN heaven, there is not one liar.
IN heaven, there is not one thief.
IN heaven, there is not one homosexual.
IN heaven, there is not one adulterer.
....
see?

So if someone "says" they are saved and goes through all the 'ceremonies', "jumps through all the hoops",
for one day, or for 100 years,
yet
if they are not a new creation , they are not saved....
if they have not a pure heart, they never see heaven...

LoveGodsWord · Oct 16, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
There is a hope that is not disappointed,
this might be here,
but in general, due to the huge numbers of unsaved readers/visitors, hope 'here' is usually disappointed (since the hope is not placed in Yahweh nor in Jesus Messiah)...

For example that may be pertinent,
when
anyone/someone becomes a citizen of Israel,
do they then follow the laws of Israel,
or do they subvert Israel, seeking to destroy it ?
Oh, either way, whatever they do,
they might legally become a citizen,
but then what ?

IN heaven, there is not one liar.
IN heaven, there is not one thief.
IN heaven, there is not one homosexual.
IN heaven, there is not one adulterer.
....
see?

So if someone "says" they are saved and goes through all the 'ceremonies', "jumps through all the hoops",
for one day, or for 100 years,
yet
if they are not a new creation , they are not saved....
if they have not a pure heart, they never see heaven...

Hi yeshuaslavejeff,

Absolutely! Well said and a very important point. None of us are saved by the things we do. We are only saved by the faith that works by love through the promises of God's Word as we abide in him and he in us. We walk not by sight but by faith in the Spirit of God. None can follow him who loves all unless they have received the operation of love to be born again to follow him who loves all. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Only through God's Words can we see the one who loves all. God's Words are Spirit and they are life and it is through his Words we are to live.

May God bless you

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 16, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
God’s people through faith that works by love do not practice sin. This is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil and because of their love for Jesus then keep his commandments (See also; John 14:15; 15:10; Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14)

AMEIN! HALLELUYAH! This is TRUTH, straight from Yahweh's Word always, in harmony and peace with all of Jesus and all of His Word.....

Why would anyone deny Jesus !?

LoveGodsWord · Oct 16, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
AMEIN! HALLELUYAH! This is TRUTH, straight from Yahweh's Word always, in harmony and peace with all of Jesus and all of His Word.....

Why would anyone deny Jesus !?

How wonderful is God's love? Only his name to always be praised forever and ever. How can one know the love of him who loves all? Yet he seeks us when we do not know him and with an everlasting love he draws us. His Spirit and truth is life indeed and this is the good news of God's Word that we only love him because he first loved us. So nice to see someone who loves Jesus through his Word.

God bless you and praise be always to the one who loves all!

bugkiller · Oct 16, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
Absolutely Ron, this was the purpose of the ceremonial laws of Moses or Mosaic laws. These and the prophets and Psalms were prophetic in nature. All the animal sacrifices, Sanctuary and Levitical laws, much of the annual festivals including meat and drink offerings, circumcision from the Mosaic laws were pointing to the true Lamb of God (Jesus) who takes away the sins of the world and the beginning of the New Covenant. These all pointed to the life, death, and resurrection and Priestly ministration of Jesus in the Heavenly Sanctuary of which the one on earth was a copy. When Jesus came they were no longer needed and were nailed to the cross symbolized by the renting of the curtain in the earthly temple at the death of Jesus and the (lots of scripture for this one)..............

HEBREWS 13 [9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be ESTABLISHED WITH GRACE; NOT WITH MEATS, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For THE BODIES OF THOSE BEASTS, WHOSE BLOOD is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] WHEREFORE JESUS ALSO, THAT HE MIGHT SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, suffered without the gate.

But now we are no longer under the law of Moses concerning the meat and drink offerings of Gods holy days, new moons and the sabbaths. Jesus fulfilled the law. We are now under grace.

JOHN 6 [53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.

When we let scripture interpret scripture its very clear what Col.2 is speaking about. The meat and drink offerings of those days are no longer to be kept.

NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

Theres the meat and drink offerings for the sabbath days that Col.2 [16] was speaking of.

EZEKIEL 46 [6] And in the day of the NEW MOON it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish. [7] And he shall prepare a MEAT OFFERING, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and for the lambs according as his hand shall attain unto, and an hin of oil to an ephah.

The meat offering for the new moon that was spoken of in Col.2 [16].

LEVITICUS 23 [4] These are THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is THE LORD'S PASSOVER. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the MEAT OFFERING thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the DRINK OFFERING thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

In all the feast days (holy days) meat and drink offerings were written into the laws of commandments contained in the ordinances. The above scripture points out the holy day of passover when Jesus was crucified.

Col 2:16-17 has nothing to do with offerings. Paul is not writing to the tribe of Levi. The issue for the Jews here is kosher foods. These kosher foods are trying to be forced on the gentile believers. The Council at Jerusalem said no.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Oct 16, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
Yes many do follow the tradition of Sunday worship, yet there is not one scripture in all of God’s Word that says we are to follow Sunday in place of God’s 4th commandment that asks us to keep the 7th Day as a holy day. You are also correct in stating that Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of man. This should ring alarm bells because Jesus gives a warning in His Word about following the traditions of men that break the commandments of God. Jesus says it is breaking God’s Law and sin is the transgression of God’s Law (10 commandments; 1 John 3:4). God's Word tells us that if we knowingly follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God.

There is not one single word about which day the christian is to assemble.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Oct 16, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
For Deuteronomy 5:1-3, the covenant was not made with the father's because they were all dead. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. This scripture does not say that God's people before Sinai did not have the 10 commandments and the ceremonial laws of Moses and that no one ever had them or practiced them before Sinai.

What makes you think Abraham did not know the 10 commandments or the ceremonial laws for sin offerings? What does God's Word say...........

Did Abraham keep God's commandments?

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: “The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham ‘kept my requirements [ mismarti ], my commands [ miswotay ], my decrees [ huqqotay ] and my laws [ wetorotay ]’ (v. 5).

“It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: ‘Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [ mismarto ], his decrees [ huqqotayw ], his laws [ mispatayw ] and his commands [ miswotayw ]’ . . .

“Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer’s ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, ‘Abraham obeyed me’ (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of ‘keeping the law,’ the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law” (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

Were the ceremonial laws for sin offerings known before God gave the 10 commandments and Moses wrote the ceremonial laws for sin? Now it must be very clear, if God's people were practicing ceremonial offerings for sin they would have known God's Law (10 commandments) because sin is the transgression of God's Law and the knowledge of what sin is (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, James 2:11). Otherwise why the need to offer up sin offering if they did not know what sin was?

Before God's 10 commandments and the ceremonial laws of Moses were given....

Genesis 4:2-7
2, And she again bare his brother Abel.2 And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3, And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4, And Abel, he also brought of the first-lings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5, But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6, And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7, If thou do well, shalt thou not be accepted ? and if thou do not well, sin lies at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Genesis 8:20
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Exodus 10:25
But Moses said, "You must also let us have sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice them to the LORD our God.

Abraham saved the same way everyone is and that is by faith that leads to obedience...

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

So it is quite clear that God's people before Mount Sinai had God's Law and the ceremonial laws for sin offerings pointing to Jesus.......

Nope I only say we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God lest any man should boast. There is no buts at all. All I have stated is that if you are living in a life of unrepentant sin you are still in your sins and do not know him who loves us. Whosoever commits sin has nether seen him or knows him.

Bob, this was already answered earlier. I assume your referring to 2 Corinthians 3:7-11. I am happy to share God’s Word with you though so do not mind you asking again. Let's have a look at 2 Corinthians Chapter 3 again.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11 is referring to the Old and New Covenants.

The context for reference is 2 Corinthians 3:3 talking about the “Believer” (in God’s Word) “Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle (Who? The “Believer” is a living message of Christ) of Christ ministered by us, not written with ink (who? The believer) but with the Spirit of the living God. Not in tables of stone but the fleshly tables of the heart (see Hebrews 8:10-12 New Covenant promise).

Let’s look at the rest of the chapter?

v6, Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament (Covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit giveth life.
v7, But if the ministration of death, written and graven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
v8, How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
v9, For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
v10, For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
v11, For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
v12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
v13, And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
v14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
v15, But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16, Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

What is the ministration of death graven in stone? It is God’s Law (10 commandments; Exodus 20:1-17; 31:18; 32:16). Why were they called the ministration of death? Because they give the knowledge of sin and righteousness (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:7). They made nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19) but showed what sin was if the God’s Law was broken the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). It was to teach us that we are all sinners in need of a saviour and that all the world may become guilty before God (Romans 3:10; 19; Isaiah 64:6). It leads us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24; Romans 3:28). The glory of the one passes to the glory of the other. They both work together to bring the sinner to salvation. This is the difference between the true Gospel and the counterfeit. The counterfeit Gospel is one that tries to separate God’s Law from the cross but without God’s Law no one has the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness.

Why is God's Law important to helping someone to have faith in Christ alone?

Because it is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Rom 3:20; 7:7). If we do away with God's Law we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12).

God's Law shows us that we are sinners in need of a savior. God's Law was given to us that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Rom 3:19). It shows us that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves from this disease that we have within us so that we can by Faith lay hold of the promises of God's Words so that Jesus can save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save the righteous (those that think they do not need saving) but sinners (those that know their need of saving) (Matt 9:12-13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32) God's Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be accountable to God.

The Law of God is the only way of showing us who we truly are, sinners in need of a Saviour and in this condition we can see for the first time Him who loved us and washed us in His own blood and by faith only lay hold of the promises of God’s Word. (2Pet 1:4) It is here as we believe God that he changes us from living a life of breaking God's Law to a life of walking with him. It is through the operation of God through Love because he first loved us that we follow Jesus not for salvation but because of love. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal sinful mind) but after the spirit and why Jesus says to his followers, "If you love me keep the commandments" (John 14:15).

People cannot see that this is the operation of God in the believer and assume God's people believe they are saved by their works, when in fact Jesus is saving us from our sins to walk in newness of life in fulfilment of His new Covenant promise (Heb 8:10-12)...... Gods Sheep hear His Voice salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's Law (1John 3:4) whosoever is living in sin has neither seen him nor known him (1John 3:6)

You say that the 10 commandments are transitory or temporary. This is correct in that they lead us to Jesus. However does this mean they are abolished? Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law (Romans 3:31). Salvation is being saved from sin not in sin. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). Those that are still in their sins have neither seen him or know him (1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12).

The 7th Day Sabbath is one of God’s 10 if we knowingly break it we are guilty of sin (James 2:8-12; 1 John 3:4). Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching over the Word of God. If we love Jesus we should follow him who loves us (John 14:15).

Now you tell me how your question has not been answered?

1 John 3:4 is very clear what it is talking about...
v4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:3-10
Is about purifying ourselves as Jesus is pure... then defines sin as the transgression of God's Law and if we are sinning we do not know God.

More clarity.....

v14 is talking about Murder which is the 6th commandment of God's Law (Exodus 20:13)

So yes we are talking about the 10 commandments... Still not sure if it is God's Law (10 commandments)? What do other scriptures say?

James talks specifically about God's Law (10 commandments) naming Adultery and Murder (killing) and say that if we break God's Law it is sin v9 and goes on to say as did John that if you break God's Law you sin and you are transgressing God's Law....

James 2:8-12
8, If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:9, But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law <1 John 3:4 Sin is the transgression of God's Law (10 commandments); Who's Law is James talking about?>.12, So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Paul says that God's Law (10 commandments) gives us a knowledge of what sin is mentioning the 10 commandment (Exodus 20:17).....

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

So yep seems like James and Paul all agree with John that sin is the transgression of God's Law.......

Already Answered above...

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The context to 1 John is v3-14 which is talking about sin is breaking God's Law and those in unrepentant sin do not know God.

Actually my interpretation of God's Word is provided by the Holy Spirit. It is based on Sola Scriptura. You are only under the Law if you stand guilty before God of breaking it (Romans 3:19; Romans 6:14). God's Israel are those that have God's Word and believe and follow it. If you do not then you are not a part of God's Israel. The New Covenant is not for unbelievers. Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments and this is the victory that overcomes the world even our faith in his promises to save us. If the son shall set you free you shall be free indeed. He holds out his hand to all today, if you hear his voice harden not your heart. Can you hear his voice? With an everlasting love have I loved you and with loving kindness have a drawn you. Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts let him return to the Lord and he will abundantly pardon. Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand. Fear God and give glory to him for the hour of God's judgement has come...

As I do you...

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word...

If I read this post correctly, it is beyond remarkable and astounding Abraham kept something he was never given and even had no knowledge of.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Oct 16, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi Copperhead,

I agree with most of your post. I will just comment on one section above for your consideration. God's Law (10 commandments) of love is summed up as our love for God and man (Matthew 22:36-40).

So by saying this is someone fulfilling their duty of loving God or his neighbor if they break His commandments? Or is someone in a saved state if they are practicing known unrepentant sin? These are interesting questions. No one is saved by trying to keep God's Law. Everyone is only saved by God's grace through faith and not of ourselves it is only a gift of God as we believe His Word but obedience is indeed the fruit of faith and if it is not in the life of those profession his name they are not believers and do not have saving faith and are in danger of the judgment.

Let's look at the scriptures.................

What is sin..................?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

James 2:11
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Sin is breaking of God's Law (10 commandments).........

Is someone saved who is practicing unrepentant sin........................?

Great question. Just can not believe you posted it. Of course I have Ex 20:8-11 in mind.

bugkiller

JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

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