Did the incarnation happen upon conception or birth?

jax5434 · Oct 16, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
what are you on about? I am stating a Bible fact and nowhere do I accuse anyone in my remark. Your Scripture quote does not fit what I am saying anyway!

"Jesus' Incarnation did NOT start at His "birth", as this would make Him a mere man in whom God dwelt, with is a heresy!"

Did you not write this? Even if someone did believe that the incarnation started at birth that would not be heresy as you claim.
God Bless
Jax

Saved.By.Grace · Oct 16, 2017

jax5434 said:
"Jesus' Incarnation did NOT start at His "birth", as this would make Him a mere man in whom God dwelt, with is a heresy!"

Did you not write this? Even if someone did believe that the incarnation started at birth that would not be heresy as you claim.
God Bless
Jax

I think that your response shows a great lack in the understanding of the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in effect Him being the true God-Man while on earth. It is heresy (unbiblical teaching) for anyone to hold that Jesus did not take on "human nature" till after His birth from the virgin Mary. For anyone to believe in this, is to deny the fact that AT conception in the womb of Mary, God the Holy Spirit commenced the process of the Lord Jesus Christ, as developing into a real human being, apart from sin, and yet remaining Almighty God, which is exactly what Paul says in Philippians 2:5-8 and John in his Gospel, chapter 1:14. For anyone to deny the Incarnation commenced at Jesus' conception, after they have been told that this is not even a possibility, and were to reject this important Doctrine, not only is heretical, but will show that they cannot even be "born-again", as their "Saviour" is nothing more than a mere human person, in whom God "dwelt", and this would deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

GingerBeer · Oct 16, 2017

DamianWarS said:
In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

Some object to calling Mary the mother of God (or Theotokos for those who prefer the obscurity of Greek). Some of those who object argue that Mary was mother of Jesus flesh but not mother of his divinity. The problem with that argument is that Jesus is one person and Mary gave birth to Jesus who is a whole person.

Some object to calling Mary the mother of God and argue that God entered Jesus at the time of or after his birth. The problem with that argument is that it contradicts scripture.

Luke 1:35 And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

The Holy Spirit came upon Mary and her child was holy from the moment of his conception.

NobleMouse · Oct 16, 2017

DamianWarS said:
In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

This may have already been mentioned so my apologies for any redundancy. To supplement the scriptural support (most authoritative on the topic) of why this occurred at conception, this is also physically true as incarnate means taking on flesh (hence the Spanish word "carne" meaning meat), and this happens at the moment of conception.

jax5434 · Oct 16, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
I think that your response shows a great lack in the understanding of the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in effect Him being the true God-Man while on earth. It is heresy (unbiblical teaching) for anyone to hold that Jesus did not take on "human nature" till after His birth from the virgin Mary. For anyone to believe in this, is to deny the fact that AT conception in the womb of Mary, God the Holy Spirit commenced the process of the Lord Jesus Christ, as developing into a real human being, apart from sin, and yet remaining Almighty God, which is exactly what Paul says in Philippians 2:5-8 and John in his Gospel, chapter 1:14. For anyone to deny the Incarnation commenced at Jesus' conception, after they have been told that this is not even a possibility, and were to reject this important Doctrine, not only is heretical, but will show that they cannot even be "born-again", as their "Saviour" is nothing more than a mere human person, in whom God "dwelt", and this would deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No my response was to your charging people with heresy.

Phillipians 2:5-8
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Who on this thread has disagreed this?
No one on here has denied that Jesus was God in the flesh. Fully God and Fully man in one hypostatic union.
God Bless
Jax
Jax

One Of The Elect · Oct 16, 2017

jax5434 said:
No my response was to your charging people with heresy.

Phillipians 2:5-8
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Who on this thread has disagreed this?
No one on here has denied that Jesus was God in the flesh. Fully God and Fully man in one hypostatic union.
God Bless
Jax
Jax

So, then what is your argument? I read what was actually said. It is after having heard the truth you continued your unfounded rebuttal and it was said, those, after have hearing truth, who continue in their non-truth convey heresy. You were not called a heretic for your first wrong assumption but for clinging to your first wrong assumption once truth was told to you. Heresy: belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.

It is written, " Correct a wise man and he will become wiser, correct a fool and gain his spurn and reproof."
We should be humble in our learning.

Saved.By.Grace · Oct 16, 2017

jax5434 said:
No my response was to your charging people with heresy.

Phillipians 2:5-8
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Who on this thread has disagreed this?
No one on here has denied that Jesus was God in the flesh. Fully God and Fully man in one hypostatic union.
God Bless
Jax
Jax

You still don't get it? I am talking about the fact that Jesus took on His human nature from Mary at conception, and not after His birth from Mary. I have never discussed whether Jesus came in the flesh or not. Philippians 2:5-8, shows that Jesus always existed as Almighty God, and then at His Incarnation (conception) took upon Himself the nature of real man, while retaining His Deity, thus becoming the God-Man. I am sorry if this is too difficult to grasp, I could try to explain it better if you want.

Monk Brendan · Oct 16, 2017

DamianWarS said:
In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

The Theotokos (Birth Giver of God) gave birth to God the Word, Jesus Christ. She bore that unborn baby for nine months. With that in mind, plus the visit to Elizabeth we look at some Scripture verses in Luke 1

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.--These verses prove that God was there at conception.

Luke 1:41-56
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

With these things in mind, that God Himself was in Mary's womb when she went to meet her cousin Elizabeth, and that John the Baptist, in Elizabeth's womb, recognized his Savior.

Thus, through Scripture, we can see that Jesus was God from conception.

Saved.By.Grace · Oct 16, 2017

GingerBeer said:
Some object to calling Mary the mother of God (or Theotokos for those who prefer the obscurity of Greek). Some of those who object argue that Mary was mother of Jesus flesh but not mother of his divinity. The problem with that argument is that Jesus is one person and Mary gave birth to Jesus who is a whole person.

Some object to calling Mary the mother of God and argue that God entered Jesus at the time of or after his birth. The problem with that argument is that it contradicts scripture.

Luke 1:35 And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
The Holy Spirit came upon Mary and her child was holy from the moment of his conception.

This is not correct. Scripture never uses the phrase "mother of God", as Mary was not, nor could be this, as God does not have a mother! Mary contributed only to the "human nature" in the God-Man, Jesus Christ, and not to His "divine nature", which as Almighty God, Jesus has always had. This is what the Apostle Paul says in Philippians 2, "ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων", that is, "Who (Jesus Christ) in the very nature of God existing" (so the force of the Greek, where "ὑπάρχων", is used in the imperfect). Then Paul goes on to say, "ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών", (but took upon Himself the very nature of Man), while retaining His Deity. Although Jesus Christ is indeed One Person, yet He has two "natures", one with a beginning and the other eternal. The Person of Jesus Christ is one of the deepest of mystries, which no human mind can ever grasp. Mary could not contribute to Jesus' Deity, and therefore the term, "mother of God", is moot.

Saved.By.Grace · Oct 16, 2017

Monk Brendan said:
The Theotokos (Birth Giver of God) gave birth to God the Word, Jesus Christ. She bore that unborn baby for nine months. With that in mind, plus the visit to Elizabeth we look at some Scripture verses in Luke 1

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.--These verses prove that God was there at conception.

Luke 1:41-56
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

With these things in mind, that God Himself was in Mary's womb when she went to meet her cousin Elizabeth, and that John the Baptist, in Elizabeth's womb, recognized his Savior.

Thus, through Scripture, we can see that Jesus was God from conception.

Mary did not give "birth" to "God" or the "divine nature" of Jesus Christ, as this is impossible, since Jesus Christ IS from all eternity Almighty God, and Mary is but a created being, who was also a sinner. She only did contribute to Jesus' "human nature", which was free from any sin due to the Holy Spirit, which is taught in Matthew 1:18, and Luke 1:35. The term "Theotokos" is unbiblical and its teaching is not what the Bible says!

GingerBeer · Oct 16, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
Scripture never uses the phrase "mother of God", as Mary was not, nor could be this, as God does not have a mother!

Is Jesus God? Was Mary Jesus' mother? The answer to both questions is "yes". Thus Mary is the mother of God.

Saved.By.Grace · Oct 16, 2017

GingerBeer said:
Is Jesus God? Was Mary Jesus' mother? The answer to both questions is "yes". Thus Mary is the mother of God.

Its not as simple as you make out! Jesus Christ is the eternal God, as are the Father and Holy Spirit. At His Incarnation (conception in Mary's womb) Jesus Christ "took on" the complete "nature" of a human, without any sin. He is 100% God and 100% Man. Only His "humanity" was derived from Mary, and not His Deity. You are reasoning with human logic!

Monk Brendan · Oct 16, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
Theotokos

Theotokos means Birthgiver of God. As Mary Gave Birth to Jesus, and Jesus has always been God, then Birthgiver of God IS correct.

GingerBeer · Oct 16, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
Its not as simple as you make out! Jesus Christ is the eternal God, as are the Father and Holy Spirit. At His Incarnation (conception in Mary's womb) Jesus Christ "took on" the complete "nature" of a human, without any sin. He is 100% God and 100% Man. Only His "humanity" was derived from Mary, and not His Deity. You are reasoning with human logic!

Like I said before

Some object to calling Mary the mother of God (or Theotokos for those who prefer the obscurity of Greek). Some of those who object argue that Mary was mother of Jesus flesh but not mother of his divinity. The problem with that argument is that Jesus is one person and Mary gave birth to Jesus who is a whole person.

Saved.By.Grace · Oct 16, 2017

Monk Brendan said:
Theotokos means Birthgiver of God. As Mary Gave Birth to Jesus, and Jesus has always been God, then Birthgiver of God IS correct.

No, this is "church theology" and does not reflect the teachings of the Holy Bible. Mary did not contribute to the "divine nature" of Jesus Christ, but only the "human nature". Just because Mary bore Jesus the God-Man in her womb for 9 months, does not allow for this unbiblical term to be justified. We should not be interested in church terms, especially if they are not founded on the Holy Bible.

Saved.By.Grace · Oct 16, 2017

GingerBeer said:
Like I said before

Some object to calling Mary the mother of God (or Theotokos for those who prefer the obscurity of Greek). Some of those who object argue that Mary was mother of Jesus flesh but not mother of his divinity. The problem with that argument is that Jesus is one person and Mary gave birth to Jesus who is a whole person.

I have said all I will on this here. You are still wrong to press this.

Alithis · Oct 16, 2017

Oh

DamianWarS said:
In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

never heard it until recently.
It doesn't make sense
A baby is not flesh until born?
How's that figured?

Alithis · Oct 16, 2017

Oh

DamianWarS said:
In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

never heard it until recently.
It doesn't make sense
A baby is not flesh until born?
How's that figured?

Alithis · Oct 16, 2017

And I take it a

Saved.By.Grace said:
No, this is "church theology" and does not reflect the teachings of the Holy Bible. Mary did not contribute to the "divine nature" of Jesus Christ, but only the "human nature". Just because Mary bore Jesus the God-Man in her womb for 9 months, does not allow for this unbiblical term to be justified. We should not be interested in church terms, especially if they are not founded on the Holy Bible.

step further.. Suggesting based upon scripture that Mary did not contribute to his human nature either.

Adam was fully human ..where did he get his human nature then ? His mother..?
And there's the point.

ViaCrucis · Oct 16, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
This is not correct. Scripture never uses the phrase "mother of God", as Mary was not, nor could be this, as God does not have a mother!

But God does have a mother, because Jesus--who is God--has Mary as His mother. Mary is the mother of God because Mary's Child is God.

Mary contributed only to the "human nature" in the God-Man, Jesus Christ, and not to His "divine nature", which as Almighty God, Jesus has always had.

Nobody thinks Mary "contributed" to Jesus' eternal Deity. Motherhood is not restricted to merely "contribution", motherhood is bearing a child for nine months, giving birth, and raising that child--Mary is very much all these things.

God was in Mary's womb for nine months. Mary gave birth to God after those nine months, and God was the infant she wrapped in swaddling. It was God who suckled at her breast. It was God's diapers that she changed. It was God that she taught to walk, and talk.

No, Mary is not the source of Christ's Deity (and nobody thinks otherwise), but Mary is the mother of Jesus, not just Jesus' humanity, she is mother of Jesus the Person, she is the mother of He who is God-and-man.

This is what the Apostle Paul says in Philippians 2, "ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων", that is, "Who (Jesus Christ) in the very nature of God existing" (so the force of the Greek, where "ὑπάρχων", is used in the imperfect). Then Paul goes on to say, "ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών", (but took upon Himself the very nature of Man), while retaining His Deity. Although Jesus Christ is indeed One Person, yet He has two "natures", one with a beginning and the other eternal. The Person of Jesus Christ is one of the deepest of mystries, which no human mind can ever grasp. Mary could not contribute to Jesus' Deity, and therefore the term, "mother of God", is moot.

And because the two natures are undivided in the one Person of Jesus, Mary is Theotokos and mother of God. Because the one Person of Jesus is God. Mary gave birth to God.

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