Why I dislike Calvinism

ICONBUSTERS

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Again, the whole problem is viewing election as being chosen for salvation. Eph 1:4 seems clear to me; "God chose us (believers) to be holy and blameless (Christ-like)."

God elected believers to service. That's our calling.
Eph 4:1 - As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
1 Thess 4:7 - For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.

Thanks so much for making your views known in a clear, concise fashion.

There is no question we believers are chosen/elected to be holy and Christ-like. Amen to that statement.

However, the question is whether election goes further back in time to before the calling of believers to holiness.

Ephesians 1:4 explains we were chosen before the foundation of the world:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him

We were chosen before we were born, before we believed.

5 in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

We were chosen and predestinated to be members of the eternal holy family of God, adopted in Christ, according to the mere good pleasure of God’s will, independent of anything in us, including foreseen faith.

This statement corroborates John 1:12-13, whereby John explains the new birth (which made us sons of God) was caused by the power and will of God, without any outside cause or influence, including the will of man.

Predestination is the effectual divine mechanism by which God determined in eternity, (before we were born, before we did anything good or blatantly evil), to save from condemnation those He loved from everlasting.

This He could do only through the substitutionary, propitiatory sacrifice of innocent Christ on behalf of the Elect/Predestinated ones.

Once divine justice was satisfied, free grace could then flow without dishonoring or diminishing His honor, Law or holiness.

Predestination precedes calling (Romans 8:30).

Our calling to service is one thing; our calling to salvation quite another.

It is possible to be chosen to service, yet not chosen to salvation.

Judas is the perfect example:

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve (John 6:70-71).

Jesus explains this same principle when He stated:

For many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).

The parable of the Dragnet exemplifies the same truth:

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:47-50).

Professing Christendom contains many who profess Christ, yet who will, at the last day, be proven to be hypocrites whose end shall be destruction.

They were called to serve in the Church, yet were not chosen for salvation.

Matthew 7:22 lists many who served in the Church, yet were reprobate.

The entire thrust of Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians is to demonstrate how they were saved by grace, having been raised from the dead, quickened together with Christ, by the same omnipotent power which raised Christ from the dead (Eph. 2).

We are saved by grace…..grace which God determined to freely give us before we were born:

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Timothy 1:9).

Paul explains merit had nothing whatsoever to do with our being called to salvation. Rather the Father decided our destiny before creation. He decreed the merited righteousness of Christ would be the grounds of our salvation, imputed to those to whom He freely gifts with the grace of faith.

Once saved, we have work/service which must be performed in Christ's name and to His glory (Ephesians 2:10).

God's Elect are chosen to salvation in Christ which includes specific work to be done as members of His Body.

I hope I have adequately explained the Scriptures as I have understood them.

Should you have further questions, I will be glad to address them to the best of my ability.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Thanks so much for making your views known in a clear, concise fashion.

There is no question we believers are chosen/elected to be holy and Christ-like. Amen to that statement.
:amen:

However, the question is whether election goes further back in time to before the calling of believers to holiness.[/QUOTE]
Of course God's elections were done in eternity past.

Ephesians 1:4 explains we were chosen before the foundation of the world:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him

We were chosen before we were born, before we believed.
Because of God's omniscience, all choices were done simultaneously in eternity past.

We were chosen and predestinated to be members of the eternal holy family of God, adopted in Christ, according to the mere good pleasure of God’s will, independent of anything in us, including foreseen faith.
This sounds like another way of saying what reformed theology concludes; that God chose who would be saved apart from any conditions. But we know throughout Scripture that believing in Christ is the sole condition for salvation.

This statement corroborates John 1:12-13, whereby John explains the new birth (which made us sons of God) was caused by the power and will of God, without any outside cause or influence, including the will of man.
There is no doubt that regeneration is all of God, and none of man.

Predestination is the effectual divine mechanism by which God determined in eternity, (before we were born, before we did anything good or blatantly evil), to save from condemnation those He loved from everlasting.
Rom 8:29 says " For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."

Predestination is about being conformed to the image of His Son. Not about salvation. And all who believe in His Son WILL be conformed to the image of His Son, because of our promised resurrection bodies, we will be just like Jesus in His glorified body.

Once divine justice was satisfied, free grace could then flow without dishonoring or diminishing His honor, Law or holiness.
Amen that!

It is possible to be chosen to service, yet not chosen to salvation.
The closest the Bible comes to saying that people are chosen to salvation is found in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

The fact that God is pleased to save those who believe shows that it is God's choice to save those who believe.
 
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DeaconDean

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Thanks so much for making your views known in a clear, concise fashion.

There is no question we believers are chosen/elected to be holy and Christ-like. Amen to that statement.

However, the question is whether election goes further back in time to before the calling of believers to holiness.

Ephesians 1:4 explains we were chosen before the foundation of the world:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him

We were chosen before we were born, before we believed.

5 in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

We were chosen and predestinated to be members of the eternal holy family of God, adopted in Christ, according to the mere good pleasure of God’s will, independent of anything in us, including foreseen faith.

This statement corroborates John 1:12-13, whereby John explains the new birth (which made us sons of God) was caused by the power and will of God, without any outside cause or influence, including the will of man.

Predestination is the effectual divine mechanism by which God determined in eternity, (before we were born, before we did anything good or blatantly evil), to save from condemnation those He loved from everlasting.

This He could do only through the substitutionary, propitiatory sacrifice of innocent Christ on behalf of the Elect/Predestinated ones.

Once divine justice was satisfied, free grace could then flow without dishonoring or diminishing His honor, Law or holiness.

Predestination precedes calling (Romans 8:30).

Our calling to service is one thing; our calling to salvation quite another.

It is possible to be chosen to service, yet not chosen to salvation.

Judas is the perfect example:

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve (John 6:70-71).

Jesus explains this same principle when He stated:

For many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).

The parable of the Dragnet exemplifies the same truth:

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:47-50).

Professing Christendom contains many who profess Christ, yet who will, at the last day, be proven to be hypocrites whose end shall be destruction.

They were called to serve in the Church, yet were not chosen for salvation.

Matthew 7:22 lists many who served in the Church, yet were reprobate.

The entire thrust of Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians is to demonstrate how they were saved by grace, having been raised from the dead, quickened together with Christ, by the same omnipotent power which raised Christ from the dead (Eph. 2).

We are saved by grace…..grace which God determined to freely give us before we were born:

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Timothy 1:9).

Paul explains merit had nothing whatsoever to do with our being called to salvation. Rather the Father decided our destiny before creation. He decreed the merited righteousness of Christ would be the grounds of our salvation, imputed to those to whom He freely gifts with the grace of faith.

Once saved, we have work/service which must be performed in Christ's name and to His glory (Ephesians 2:10).

God's Elect are chosen to salvation in Christ which includes specific work to be done as members of His Body.

I hope I have adequately explained the Scriptures as I have understood them.

Should you have further questions, I will be glad to address them to the best of my ability.

One problem, the scripture says "chosen" not elected.

I bet you'll get an argument over that.

God Bless

Till all are one
 
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ICONBUSTERS

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Of course God's elections were done in eternity past.
Because of God's omniscience, all choices were done simultaneously in eternity past.
This sounds like another way of saying what reformed theology concludes; that God chose who would be saved apart from any conditions. But we know throughout Scripture that believing in Christ is the sole condition for salvation.
There is no doubt that regeneration is all of God, and none of man.
Rom 8:29 says " For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."
Predestination is about being conformed to the image of His Son. Not about salvation. And all who believe in His Son WILL be conformed to the image of His Son, because of our promised resurrection bodies, we will be just like Jesus in His glorified body.
Amen that!
The closest the Bible comes to saying that people are chosen to salvation is found in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
The fact that God is pleased to save those who believe shows that it is God's choice to save those who believe.

Thank you, FreeGrace2, for continuing the dialogue, making your views further known.

Our initial discussion centered on your proposing God’s election primarily concerns the service to which believers are elected.

In your view election has nothing whatever to do with salvation.

Again, the whole problem is viewing election as being chosen for salvation……God elected believers to service. That's our calling.

In my response I proved the calling to service in the Church by the election of God is distinct and separate from the calling to salvation by the election of God.

The non-elect may be called to service and yet be eternally lost, while all Elect will always be called to service secure in their salvation.

I used several examples to prove my thesis:

1. Judas was chosen by Christ to serve as an Apostle, yet was not chosen for salvation.

2. Jesus admits many are called into God’s service, who are not chosen for salvation.

3. Jesus warns many will be rejected as reprobate on the last day, though they served important and necessary functions in the Church. He never knew them as chosen for salvation.

4. The Parable of the Dragnet relates the eternal truth that many who serve in the Church, having responded to the call of the Gospel, will be rejected as reprobate at the last day.

Thus far you remain silent on these points, having no response or rebuttal.

The elect nation of Israel further proves my thesis.

The Israelites were singularly blessed with privileges and advantages no other nation had. It was through the Jewish people their Messiah would come.

Paul outlines these privileges and advantages in Romans 9:4-5.

Though they were blessed to do service to the true God, that election and call to service was not sufficient to save them.

For within that elect nation was a remnant called and saved by the election of grace.

Only those who were chosen for salvation were considered the children of promise…….the promise God would be their God and they would be His people.

Furthermore, Paul makes the staggering assertion God’s choice is independent of any merit foreseen in man (Romans 9:8-16).

This sounds like another way of saying what reformed theology concludes; that God chose who would be saved apart from any conditions. But we know throughout Scripture that believing in Christ is the sole condition for salvation.

Again, we must differentiate God’s election to salvation from the conditions necessary to attain salvation.

Because salvation is all of God’s grace (Eph. 2:8), Paul explains man’s merit is excluded as a factor in election, which is all of grace (Romans 11:1-7).

For if election was otherwise, salvation would be of works, merited.

But no man merits eternal life (Romans 3:10). Instead, all men merit eternal death (Romans 6:23).

What is difficult for many to understand is the fact that our holy God has the right to give to whom He pleases that which we do not deserve or merit, according to the good pleasure of His inscrutable will.

Saving faith is the free undeserved gift of God to the Elect (Eph. 2:8-9; Acts 18:27; Phil. 1:29).

It is freely given to those who naturally hate that which is holy; whose carnal minds are enmity against God (Romans 8:7).

God graciously fulfills in the Elect the necessary conditions of salvation by the power of the Holy Spirit; for Christ purchased all spiritual blessings in heavenly places (Eph. 1:3).

This an act of sovereign mercy and compassion, whose origin lies in the eternal love of the Father for His chosen (1 John 4:19; Romans 9:13-16).

And that love is invincible (Romans 8:37-39).

I do hope I have made some admittedly difficult issues clearer.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thess. 2:13).
 
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DeaconDean

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A quick perusal of a Greek lexicon will defeat any such argument. :>)

Now here is how I see it.

The Greek lexicon actually defines the Greek word here in several ways, but most definitions come from a "penalty" argument.

But, as in English grammer, the same applies in Greek.

"herion" is a verb, it's subject is whom?

Who chose?

No matter how you slice it, the choice came from God, they were "elected" also.

"Meaning
chosen out, selected;, in NT chosen as a recipient of special privilege, elect, Col. 3:12; specially beloved, Lk. 23:35; possessed of prime excellence, exalted, 1Tim. 5:21; choice, precious, 1Pet. 2:4, 6"

The Greek word in 2 Thess. 2:13, is: "αἱρέω (haireō) “to choose” "

"Verb 3rd Singular 2nd Aorist Indicative Middle"

And the main point above all else is:

The "choice" being made in the "past".

God chose/elected the audience in Thessalonica in the "past" to salvation, through sanctification.

My last post here.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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I also add:

"The Language of Choice

Now we can examine vs. 13 in more detail. "Brothers loved by the Lord" has the nuance of "you who have always been loved by the Lord." In this context, it is more than a term of endearment. It serves to distinguish the Thessalonian believers from the rest of the world, while at the same time anticipating the Lord's action on their behalf (choosing them). Paul can call the Christians "loved by the Lord" because of what God did for them, namely, that "from the beginning God chose you to be saved." God's love issues in his choice, and the latter serves as evidence that the former has always been there.

Before anyone accuses me of reading too much into this text, we need to consider the Greek word translated "chose" in this verse. The word is used three times in the New Testament: (1) here (the only place where God is the subject), (2) in Philippians 1:22, where Paul asks, "What shall I choose?" when faced with two alternatives (to go on living or to die), and (3) in Hebrews 11:25, where the author says of Moses, "He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time."

In Philippians 1:22 and Hebrews 11:25, choose means "choose one thing over another." It seems perfectly reasonable, then, that choose in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 means "choose some, but not others." What is more, this meaning suits the context, where Paul establishes a contrast between two different groups of people.

The two groups are treated differently by God. To one group, God sends deception, so that they believe a lie (they receive the judgment they deserve). The other group was chosen and, subsequently, called to salvation. In other words, if all we had in front of us was this much of the text, we would conclude that God's choice is what makes the difference between the two groups.

This, of course, is the biblical doctrine of election—the very doctrine that has been the cause of so much friction within the Christian church. Yet it is the plain teaching of this and other biblical texts that God's choice is the singular explanation for the distinction between the two categories of humanity, the saved and the lost. Pay close attention to how the word but functions in the following verses by taking note of what precedes it and what follows it.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of [literally, according to] his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-7)

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature [literally, our flesh] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. (Eph. 2:1-5)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor. 1:18)

In the first two examples, Paul looks back at the condition of Christians (including himself) before they were converted. Paul and the other believers were once just like everyone else in the world; they shared in the common lot of humanity, sinful through and through, by nature worthy of condemnation. Why, then, are they—Paul and the Christians to whom he is writing—no longer in that condition? Because God loved them and saved them! He did not, as some teach, love them and merely make salvation available to them. No, he loved them and saved them, thus separating them from "the rest" (whom he did not love and save).

In the third example, Paul contrasts how two classes of people perceive the message of Israel's Messiah dying a miserable, shameful death on a Roman cross. One class, "those who are perishing" (the same phrase as in 2 Thessalonians 2:10), interpret the message of the cross according to ordinary human standards—as foolishness. The other class, those who are "being saved" (note the passive voice: something is being done to them), interpret it differently, seeing it as God's power. Presumably, "those who are being saved" would also regard the message of the cross as foolishness, except for the fact that they are being saved!"

Source

I know its going to happen, but John Calvin wrote:

"Hath chosen you. He states the reason why all are not involved and swallowed up in the same ruin--because Satan has no power over any that God has chosen, so as to prevent them from being saved, though heaven and earth were to be confounded. This passage is read in various ways.

The old interpreter has rendered it first--fruits, as being in the Greek ajparch>n; but as almost all the Greek manuscripts have apj ajrch~v, I have in preference followed this reading. Should any one prefer first--fruits, the meaning will be, that believers have been, as it were, set aside for a sacred offering, by a metaphor taken from the ancient custom of the law. Let us, however, hold by what is more generally received, that he says that the Thessalonians were chosen from the beginning.

Some understand the meaning to be, that they had been called among the first; but this is foreign to Paul's meaning, and does not accord with the connection of the passage. For he does not merely exempt from fear a few individuals, who had been led to Christ immediately on the commencement of the gospel, but this consolation belongs to all the elect of God, without exception. When, therefore, he says from the beginning, he means that there is no danger lest their salvation, which is founded on God's eternal election, should be overthrown, whatever tumultuous changes may occur. "However Satan may mix and confound all things in the world, your salvation, notwithstanding, has been placed on a footing of safety, prior to the creation of the world." Here, therefore, is the true port of safety, that God, who elected us of old, will deliver us from all the evils that threaten us. For we are elected to salvation; we shall, therefore, be safe from destruction. But as it is not for us to penetrate into God's secret counsel, to seek there assurance of our salvation, he specifies signs or tokens of election, which should suffice us for the assurance of it."

Source

C. H. Spurgeon said:

"If there were no other text in the sacred word except this one, I think we should all be bound to receive and acknowledge the truthfulness of the great and glorious doctrine of God's ancient choice of His family. But there seems to be an ongoing prejudice in the human mind against this doctrine, and although most other doctrines will be received by professing Christians, some with caution, others with pleasure, yet this one seems to be most frequently disregarded and discarded. In many of our pulpits, it would be considered a great sin and treason to preach a sermon on "election," because they could not make "practical" application of the discussion. I believe that they have clearly misjudged the truth of this subject. Whatever God has revealed, He has revealed for a purpose.

Jesus Christ says,

"If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has shorten them" (Mark 13:20).

"False Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible" (Mark 13:22).

"He will send His angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" (Mark 13:27).

"And will not God bring about justice for His chosen [elect] ones, who cry out to Him day and night? Will He keep putting them off?" (Luke 18:7).

Together with many other passages which might be selected, in which either the word "elect," or "chosen," or "foreordained," or "appointed," is mentioned; or the phrase "my sheep," or some similar designation, showing that Christ's people are distinguished from the rest of mankind.

But you have concordances, and I will not trouble you with texts. Throughout the epistles, the saints are constantly called "the elect" or "the chosen." In the Book of Colossians we find Paul saying, "Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion." When he writes to Titus, he calls himself, "Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect." Peter says, "To God's elect, strangers in the world . . . who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Then if you turn to John, you will find that he is very fond of the word. He says, "The elder, to the elect lady" (KJV), and he speaks of our "elect sister." And we know where it is written, "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you" (KJV).

They were not ashamed of the word in those days; they were not afraid to talk about it. Nowadays the word has been dressed up with a variety of meanings, and persons have mutilated and marred the doctrine, so that they have made it a doctrine of devils. But, why should I be ashamed of it, even though men struggle with it. We love God's truth even when it is challenged and twisted by doubters--we don't call it false. We don't love to see it perverted and twisted, but we never stop loving the truth that is being abused, because we can discern what the truth really says despite the twisting and perversions by the cruelty and inventions of men. If you will read many of the epistles of the ancient Fathers, you will find them always writing to the people of God as "the elect." In fact, the common term used in conversation among many of the early Christians to one another, was that of the "elect." They would often use the term to one another, showing that it was generally believed that all God's people were unmistakably "elect."

But now for the verses that will positively prove the doctrine. Open your Bibles and turn to John 15:16, and there you will see that Jesus Christ has chosen His people; for He says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." Then in the 19th verse, "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Then in the 17th chapter and the 8th and 9th verses, "For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." Turn to Acts 13:48, "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed." They may try to split that passage into hairs if they like: but it says, "appointed to eternal life," as plainly as it possibly can; and we don't care about all the different commentaries that criticize election. You scarcely need to be reminded of Romans 8, because I trust you are well acquainted with that chapter, and understand it by this time. In the 29th, and following verses, it says,

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

It would be unnecessary to repeat the whole of the 9th chapter of Romans. As long as that remains in the Bible no man shall be able to prove Arminianism; so long as that is written there, not the most violent contortions of the passage will ever be able to exterminate the doctrine of election from the Scriptures. Let us read such verses as these: "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls--she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.'" Then read the 22nd verse: "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory." Then go to Romans 11:7, "What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened." In the 5th verse of the same chapter: "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace." You, no doubt, all remember the passage in 1 Corinthians 1:26-29:

Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before Him.

Again, remember the passage in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." And then you have my text, which I think would be quite enough. But if you need more, you can find them at your leisure, if we have not quite removed your suspicions as to the doctrine being true.

My friends, I think that this overwhelming mass of Scripture testimony must stagger those who dare to laugh at this doctrine. What shall we say of those who have so often despised it, and denied its divinity, who have mocked its justice and dared to defy God and call Him an Almighty tyrant, when they have heard of His having elected only so many to eternal life. Can you, O rejecter! tear it out of the Bible? Can you take the penknife of Jehudi and cut it out of the Word of God? Would you be like the woman at the feet of Solomon, and have the child cut in halves, that you might have your half? Is it not here in Scripture? And is it not your duty to bow before it? To receive it as the truth even though you can't understand its meaning?

I will not attempt to prove the justice of God in having thus elected some and left others. It is not for me to argue with my Master. He will speak for Himself, and He does so: "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" Who is he that shall say to his father, "What have you procreated?" Or to his mother, "What have you brought forth?" I am the Lord your God, I create light and I create darkness. I the Lord do all of these things. Who are you that answers back to God? Tremble and kiss His rod; bow down and submit to His scepter; do not challenge His justice, and do not accuse His actions before your bar, O man!

But there are some who say, "It is hard for God to choose some and leave others." Now, I will ask you one question. Is there any one of you here this morning who wishes to be holy, who wishes to be regenerate, to leave their life of sin and walk in holiness? "Yes, there is," says some one, "I do." Then God has elected you. But another says, "No: I don't want to be holy; I don't want to give up my lusts and my vices." Why should you grumble, then, that God has not elected you to it? For if you were elected you would not like it, according to your own confession. If God, this morning, had chosen you to holiness, you say you would not care for it. Do you not acknowledge that you prefer drunkenness to sobriety, dishonesty to honesty? You love this world's pleasure better than religion; then why should you grumble that God has not chosen you to religion? If you love religion, He has chosen you to it. If you desire it, He has chosen you to it. If you do not, what right have you to say that God ought to have given you what you do not wish for?

Supposing I had in my hand something which you do not value, and I said I shall give it to such-and-such a person: you would have no right to grumble that I did not give it to you. You could not be so foolish as to grumble that the other has got what you did not care about. According to your own confession, many of you do not want religion, do not want a new heart and a right spirit, do not want the forgiveness of sins, do not want to be holy, you do not want to be elected to these things: then why should you grumble? You count these things as worthless, and why should you complain of God who has given them to those whom He has chosen?

If you believe them to be good, and desire them, they are there for you. God gives liberally to all those who desire; and first of all, He makes them desire, otherwise they never would. If you love these things, he has elected you to them, and you may have them; but if you do not, who are you that you should find fault with God, when it is your own headstrong will that keeps you from loving these things--your own simple self that makes you hat them? Suppose a man in the street should say, "What a shame it is I cannot have a seat in the church to hear what the preacher has to say." And suppose he says, "I hate the preacher; I can't stand his doctrine; but still it's a shame I don't have a seat." Would you expect a may to say such a thing? No: you would quickly say, "That man doesn't care for it. Why should he trouble himself about other people having what they value and he despises?" You don't like holiness, you do not like righteousness: if God has elected me to these things, has He hurt you by it?

"Ah, but," some say, "I thought it meant that God elected some to heaven and some to hell." That 's a very different matter from the gospel doctrine. He has elected men to holiness and to righteousness, and through that to heaven. You must not say that He has elected them simply to heaven, and others only to hell. He has elected you to holiness, if you love holiness. If any of you love to be saved by Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ has elected you to be saved. If any of you desire to have salvation, you are elected to have it, if you sincerely and earnestly desire it. But, if you don't desire it, why on earth should you be so incredibly foolish as to complain because God gives that which you don't like to other people?"

Source

upload_2017-10-16_1-41-21.jpeg


So: "I'm outta here!"

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Thank you, FreeGrace2, for continuing the dialogue, making your views further known.
My pleasure.

Our initial discussion centered on your proposing God’s election primarily concerns the service to which believers are elected.

In your view election has nothing whatever to do with salvation.
My view, as formed from studying all the examples of election in Scripture, is that the purpose of election, in general, is about service. Jesus Christ, the Elect One, serves as Savior, elect angels serve God, the people of Israel were elected to serve God, preserve and preach His Word (they failed repeatedly), etc.

In my response I proved the calling to service in the Church by the election of God is distinct and separate from the calling to salvation by the election of God.
This is the issue: where does Scripture specifically say that the "call (Greek-invite) to salvation is by the election of God"?

The non-elect may be called to service and yet be eternally lost, while all Elect will always be called to service secure in their salvation.
From Eph 1:4, we read that God chose (elected) "us" (believers) to be holy and blameless. This is service.

I used several examples to prove my thesis:

1. Judas was chosen by Christ to serve as an Apostle, yet was not chosen for salvation.
This examples supports my thesis.

2. Jesus admits many are called into God’s service, who are not chosen for salvation.
Matt 22:14 isn't about salvation. How would one go about showing that it is, from the context?

3. Jesus warns many will be rejected as reprobate on the last day, though they served important and necessary functions in the Church. He never knew them as chosen for salvation.
Is this a reference to Matt 7:21-23? If so, it seems the point was that there will be many very religious people who believed that they must work for entrance into the kingdom, like the RCC, for example, and Mormons. The whole basis for that crowd's appeal for entering the kingdom was their works.

4. The Parable of the Dragnet relates the eternal truth that many who serve in the Church, having responded to the call of the Gospel, will be rejected as reprobate at the last day.
I'm not familiar with this parable. Please provide the location.

Thus far you remain silent on these points, having no response or rebuttal.
This is the first occurence of points to rebut. To which I've provided response and rebuttal.

The elect nation of Israel further proves my thesis.
I believe it proves mine. They were chosen to serve, not chosen for salvation.

The Israelites were singularly blessed with privileges and advantages no other nation had. It was through the Jewish people their Messiah would come.

Paul outlines these privileges and advantages in Romans 9:4-5.

Though they were blessed to do service to the true God, that election and call to service was not sufficient to save them.
No argument.

For within that elect nation was a remnant called and saved by the election of grace.
Where does the phrase "election of grace" occur in Scripture?

Only those who were chosen for salvation were considered the children of promise…….the promise God would be their God and they would be His people.
Scripture clearly indicates who God chooses for salvation; believers. That's who He chooses. We see the principle in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Since it pleases God to save those who believe, it is clear that is His choice.

Furthermore, Paul makes the staggering assertion God’s choice is independent of any merit foreseen in man (Romans 9:8-16).
Of course salvation is by grace, not merit. And 1 Cor 1:21 shows what pleases God; to save those who believe. Is there merit in believing in Christ? No. Salvation is not earned by believing in Christ. Paul made that point clear in Rom 4:4,5 where he contrasted works with grace.

Again, we must differentiate God’s election to salvation from the conditions necessary to attain salvation.
There is only one condition; faith in Christ. And the reformed doctrine is "unconditional election", this alone proves that election cannot be about salvation, since God is pleased to save those who believe.

Consider this: if the reformed doctrine of unconditional election were true, then faith would NOT be a condition or requirement for salvation. But Paul made it clear that faith IS required, in his answer to a jailer in Acts 16:30-31.

Because salvation is all of God’s grace (Eph. 2:8), Paul explains man’s merit is excluded as a factor in election, which is all of grace (Romans 11:1-7).
Which I've just summarized.

For if election was otherwise, salvation would be of works, merited.
What is still missing is any verse that links election to salvation.

But no man merits eternal life (Romans 3:10). Instead, all men merit eternal death (Romans 6:23).
No question about it.

What is difficult for many to understand is the fact that our holy God has the right to give to whom He pleases that which we do not deserve or merit, according to the good pleasure of His inscrutable will.
And that is grace!

Saving faith is the free undeserved gift of God to the Elect (Eph. 2:8-9; Acts 18:27; Phil. 1:29).
It seems you've equated "the elect" with "believers". I don't do that. Because of all the examples in Scripture.

God graciously fulfills in the Elect the necessary conditions of salvation by the power of the Holy Spirit; for Christ purchased all spiritual blessings in heavenly places (Eph. 1:3).
It seems this is awfully close to the idea that God is the cause of one's action of belief, through regeneration which precedes faith. I can show the opposite from Scripture.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thess. 2:13).
This is the only verse in Scripture where being "chosen to salvation" is worded.

So, let's examine the verse. The word here for "chosen" is 'haireomai', and never translated elected. The Greek verb translated elected is 'eklektomai'.

The difference here can be seen in the following:
Every election involves choice.
Very few choices involve election.

Secondly, the verse isn't about being chosen to salvation, but being chosen according to a mechanism. The mechanism of being saved is "belief of the truth".

This perfectly aligns with 1 Cor 1:21, that "God is pleased to save those who believe". So, 2 Thess 2:13 teaches that the fact that salvation is through belief in the truth" is God's choice. That's the plan He chose by which to save mankind.

There verse clearly is not about election at all.
 
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ToBeLoved

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The people who service my lawn equipment are Catholic. I would not have issue with them boldly declaring themselves as eternally secure, as I don't see the otherwise in their character.
So because you haven’t or don’t know them well enough to see ‘otherwise’ you believe they are saved?

That is a slippery, slippery slope my friend. Unless Jesus shares personally with you everyone’s prayers and repentance? Does He?

Because you cannot know if a sin has been repented for and forgiven otherwise. And repented for sin is cast by Christ as far as the east is from the west.

Does God tell you things He doesn’t tell the rest of us or something?

I’m thinking of some verse about a rod and a sliver. Someone got that verse?
 
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rockytopva

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So because you haven’t or don’t know them well enough to see ‘otherwise’ you believe they are saved?

That is a slippery, slippery slope my friend. Unless Jesus shares personally with you everyone’s prayers and repentance? Does He?

Because you cannot know if a sin has been repented for and forgiven otherwise. And repented for sin is cast by Christ as far as the east is from the west.

Does God tell you things He doesn’t tell the rest of us or something?

I’m thinking of some verse about a rod and a sliver. Someone got that verse?

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7

I know Catholics and Calvinist who I believe are saved with all my heart. Show me some fruit of Christian living and then yes, I will buy into your salvation as valid.
 
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ToBeLoved

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13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7

I know Catholics and Calvinist who I believe are saved with all my heart. Show me some fruit of Christian living and then yes, I will buy into your salvation as valid.
Then you buy into a works based salvation.

P.S. Jesus is talking to the unsaved in that verse.
 
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rockytopva

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Then you buy into a works based salvation.

P.S. Jesus is talking to the unsaved in that verse.

I buy into the Word of God...

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2
 
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ToBeLoved

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I buy into the Word of God...

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2
These verses are designed to show us that Christ does good works in us. Not that we do works for salvation.

So you then believe in the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant in Christ’s blood?
 
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rockytopva

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These verses are designed to show us that Christ does good works in us. Not that we do works for salvation.

So you then believe in the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant in Christ’s blood?

There are returns expected on the blood bought investment...

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 25
 
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DeaconDean

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I buy into the Word of God...

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2

One of the most disputed verses in the entire NT.

Any good and decent chain reference bible would easily defeat that.

That puts both Paul and James as contradictory.

"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." -Rom. 4:3 (KJV)

In this verse, Paul's reference is Abraham in Gen. 15:6.

"And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

James however, references Gen. 22:12:

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

Like I said, any good chain reference bible will show you this.

Tradition has it that Abraham was seventy-five years old when he believed God in Genesis 15. However, Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. (cf. Gen. 22:6) Tradition has it that Isaac was around twenty-five when Abraham took him to the mountain for the sacrifice. If the Catholics and Arminians are correct, then it logically means that Abraham had to wait fifty years in order to actually be justified! No! We merely point out that the offering of his son, gave evidence to Abraham’s faith in God." And that is what is inferred in James. Abraham, in his willingness to sacrifice Isaac was evidence of Abraham's faith.

Same with us. We are righteous and justified in our faith in Jesus, but works gives evidence of said faith.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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rockytopva

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Exactly! But the returns aren't required for maintenance of the free gift. And there are consequences for failure of returns.
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. - Romans 12:1-2

There is reasonable service, which is to keep out bodies holy and acceptable to God.
 
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ICONBUSTERS

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I also add:

"The Language of Choice

Now we can examine vs. 13 in more detail. "Brothers loved by the Lord" has the nuance of "you who have always been loved by the Lord." In this context, it is more than a term of endearment. It serves to distinguish the Thessalonian believers from the rest of the world, while at the same time anticipating the Lord's action on their behalf (choosing them). Paul can call the Christians "loved by the Lord" because of what God did for them, namely, that "from the beginning God chose you to be saved." God's love issues in his choice, and the latter serves as evidence that the former has always been there.

Before anyone accuses me of reading too much into this text, we need to consider the Greek word translated "chose" in this verse. The word is used three times in the New Testament: (1) here (the only place where God is the subject), (2) in Philippians 1:22, where Paul asks, "What shall I choose?" when faced with two alternatives (to go on living or to die), and (3) in Hebrews 11:25, where the author says of Moses, "He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time."

In Philippians 1:22 and Hebrews 11:25, choose means "choose one thing over another." It seems perfectly reasonable, then, that choose in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 means "choose some, but not others." What is more, this meaning suits the context, where Paul establishes a contrast between two different groups of people.

The two groups are treated differently by God. To one group, God sends deception, so that they believe a lie (they receive the judgment they deserve). The other group was chosen and, subsequently, called to salvation. In other words, if all we had in front of us was this much of the text, we would conclude that God's choice is what makes the difference between the two groups.

This, of course, is the biblical doctrine of election—the very doctrine that has been the cause of so much friction within the Christian church. Yet it is the plain teaching of this and other biblical texts that God's choice is the singular explanation for the distinction between the two categories of humanity, the saved and the lost. Pay close attention to how the word but functions in the following verses by taking note of what precedes it and what follows it.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of [literally, according to] his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-7)

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature [literally, our flesh] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. (Eph. 2:1-5)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor. 1:18)

In the first two examples, Paul looks back at the condition of Christians (including himself) before they were converted. Paul and the other believers were once just like everyone else in the world; they shared in the common lot of humanity, sinful through and through, by nature worthy of condemnation. Why, then, are they—Paul and the Christians to whom he is writing—no longer in that condition? Because God loved them and saved them! He did not, as some teach, love them and merely make salvation available to them. No, he loved them and saved them, thus separating them from "the rest" (whom he did not love and save).

In the third example, Paul contrasts how two classes of people perceive the message of Israel's Messiah dying a miserable, shameful death on a Roman cross. One class, "those who are perishing" (the same phrase as in 2 Thessalonians 2:10), interpret the message of the cross according to ordinary human standards—as foolishness. The other class, those who are "being saved" (note the passive voice: something is being done to them), interpret it differently, seeing it as God's power. Presumably, "those who are being saved" would also regard the message of the cross as foolishness, except for the fact that they are being saved!"

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I know its going to happen, but John Calvin wrote:

"Hath chosen you. He states the reason why all are not involved and swallowed up in the same ruin--because Satan has no power over any that God has chosen, so as to prevent them from being saved, though heaven and earth were to be confounded. This passage is read in various ways.

The old interpreter has rendered it first--fruits, as being in the Greek ajparch>n; but as almost all the Greek manuscripts have apj ajrch~v, I have in preference followed this reading. Should any one prefer first--fruits, the meaning will be, that believers have been, as it were, set aside for a sacred offering, by a metaphor taken from the ancient custom of the law. Let us, however, hold by what is more generally received, that he says that the Thessalonians were chosen from the beginning.

Some understand the meaning to be, that they had been called among the first; but this is foreign to Paul's meaning, and does not accord with the connection of the passage. For he does not merely exempt from fear a few individuals, who had been led to Christ immediately on the commencement of the gospel, but this consolation belongs to all the elect of God, without exception. When, therefore, he says from the beginning, he means that there is no danger lest their salvation, which is founded on God's eternal election, should be overthrown, whatever tumultuous changes may occur. "However Satan may mix and confound all things in the world, your salvation, notwithstanding, has been placed on a footing of safety, prior to the creation of the world." Here, therefore, is the true port of safety, that God, who elected us of old, will deliver us from all the evils that threaten us. For we are elected to salvation; we shall, therefore, be safe from destruction. But as it is not for us to penetrate into God's secret counsel, to seek there assurance of our salvation, he specifies signs or tokens of election, which should suffice us for the assurance of it."

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C. H. Spurgeon said:

"If there were no other text in the sacred word except this one, I think we should all be bound to receive and acknowledge the truthfulness of the great and glorious doctrine of God's ancient choice of His family. But there seems to be an ongoing prejudice in the human mind against this doctrine, and although most other doctrines will be received by professing Christians, some with caution, others with pleasure, yet this one seems to be most frequently disregarded and discarded. In many of our pulpits, it would be considered a great sin and treason to preach a sermon on "election," because they could not make "practical" application of the discussion. I believe that they have clearly misjudged the truth of this subject. Whatever God has revealed, He has revealed for a purpose.

Jesus Christ says,

"If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has shorten them" (Mark 13:20).

"False Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible" (Mark 13:22).

"He will send His angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" (Mark 13:27).

"And will not God bring about justice for His chosen [elect] ones, who cry out to Him day and night? Will He keep putting them off?" (Luke 18:7).

Together with many other passages which might be selected, in which either the word "elect," or "chosen," or "foreordained," or "appointed," is mentioned; or the phrase "my sheep," or some similar designation, showing that Christ's people are distinguished from the rest of mankind.

But you have concordances, and I will not trouble you with texts. Throughout the epistles, the saints are constantly called "the elect" or "the chosen." In the Book of Colossians we find Paul saying, "Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion." When he writes to Titus, he calls himself, "Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect." Peter says, "To God's elect, strangers in the world . . . who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Then if you turn to John, you will find that he is very fond of the word. He says, "The elder, to the elect lady" (KJV), and he speaks of our "elect sister." And we know where it is written, "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you" (KJV).

They were not ashamed of the word in those days; they were not afraid to talk about it. Nowadays the word has been dressed up with a variety of meanings, and persons have mutilated and marred the doctrine, so that they have made it a doctrine of devils. But, why should I be ashamed of it, even though men struggle with it. We love God's truth even when it is challenged and twisted by doubters--we don't call it false. We don't love to see it perverted and twisted, but we never stop loving the truth that is being abused, because we can discern what the truth really says despite the twisting and perversions by the cruelty and inventions of men. If you will read many of the epistles of the ancient Fathers, you will find them always writing to the people of God as "the elect." In fact, the common term used in conversation among many of the early Christians to one another, was that of the "elect." They would often use the term to one another, showing that it was generally believed that all God's people were unmistakably "elect."

But now for the verses that will positively prove the doctrine. Open your Bibles and turn to John 15:16, and there you will see that Jesus Christ has chosen His people; for He says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." Then in the 19th verse, "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Then in the 17th chapter and the 8th and 9th verses, "For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." Turn to Acts 13:48, "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed." They may try to split that passage into hairs if they like: but it says, "appointed to eternal life," as plainly as it possibly can; and we don't care about all the different commentaries that criticize election. You scarcely need to be reminded of Romans 8, because I trust you are well acquainted with that chapter, and understand it by this time. In the 29th, and following verses, it says,

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

It would be unnecessary to repeat the whole of the 9th chapter of Romans. As long as that remains in the Bible no man shall be able to prove Arminianism; so long as that is written there, not the most violent contortions of the passage will ever be able to exterminate the doctrine of election from the Scriptures. Let us read such verses as these: "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls--she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.'" Then read the 22nd verse: "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory." Then go to Romans 11:7, "What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened." In the 5th verse of the same chapter: "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace." You, no doubt, all remember the passage in 1 Corinthians 1:26-29:

Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before Him.

Again, remember the passage in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." And then you have my text, which I think would be quite enough. But if you need more, you can find them at your leisure, if we have not quite removed your suspicions as to the doctrine being true.

My friends, I think that this overwhelming mass of Scripture testimony must stagger those who dare to laugh at this doctrine. What shall we say of those who have so often despised it, and denied its divinity, who have mocked its justice and dared to defy God and call Him an Almighty tyrant, when they have heard of His having elected only so many to eternal life. Can you, O rejecter! tear it out of the Bible? Can you take the penknife of Jehudi and cut it out of the Word of God? Would you be like the woman at the feet of Solomon, and have the child cut in halves, that you might have your half? Is it not here in Scripture? And is it not your duty to bow before it? To receive it as the truth even though you can't understand its meaning?

I will not attempt to prove the justice of God in having thus elected some and left others. It is not for me to argue with my Master. He will speak for Himself, and He does so: "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" Who is he that shall say to his father, "What have you procreated?" Or to his mother, "What have you brought forth?" I am the Lord your God, I create light and I create darkness. I the Lord do all of these things. Who are you that answers back to God? Tremble and kiss His rod; bow down and submit to His scepter; do not challenge His justice, and do not accuse His actions before your bar, O man!

But there are some who say, "It is hard for God to choose some and leave others." Now, I will ask you one question. Is there any one of you here this morning who wishes to be holy, who wishes to be regenerate, to leave their life of sin and walk in holiness? "Yes, there is," says some one, "I do." Then God has elected you. But another says, "No: I don't want to be holy; I don't want to give up my lusts and my vices." Why should you grumble, then, that God has not elected you to it? For if you were elected you would not like it, according to your own confession. If God, this morning, had chosen you to holiness, you say you would not care for it. Do you not acknowledge that you prefer drunkenness to sobriety, dishonesty to honesty? You love this world's pleasure better than religion; then why should you grumble that God has not chosen you to religion? If you love religion, He has chosen you to it. If you desire it, He has chosen you to it. If you do not, what right have you to say that God ought to have given you what you do not wish for?

Supposing I had in my hand something which you do not value, and I said I shall give it to such-and-such a person: you would have no right to grumble that I did not give it to you. You could not be so foolish as to grumble that the other has got what you did not care about. According to your own confession, many of you do not want religion, do not want a new heart and a right spirit, do not want the forgiveness of sins, do not want to be holy, you do not want to be elected to these things: then why should you grumble? You count these things as worthless, and why should you complain of God who has given them to those whom He has chosen?

If you believe them to be good, and desire them, they are there for you. God gives liberally to all those who desire; and first of all, He makes them desire, otherwise they never would. If you love these things, he has elected you to them, and you may have them; but if you do not, who are you that you should find fault with God, when it is your own headstrong will that keeps you from loving these things--your own simple self that makes you hat them? Suppose a man in the street should say, "What a shame it is I cannot have a seat in the church to hear what the preacher has to say." And suppose he says, "I hate the preacher; I can't stand his doctrine; but still it's a shame I don't have a seat." Would you expect a may to say such a thing? No: you would quickly say, "That man doesn't care for it. Why should he trouble himself about other people having what they value and he despises?" You don't like holiness, you do not like righteousness: if God has elected me to these things, has He hurt you by it?

"Ah, but," some say, "I thought it meant that God elected some to heaven and some to hell." That 's a very different matter from the gospel doctrine. He has elected men to holiness and to righteousness, and through that to heaven. You must not say that He has elected them simply to heaven, and others only to hell. He has elected you to holiness, if you love holiness. If any of you love to be saved by Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ has elected you to be saved. If any of you desire to have salvation, you are elected to have it, if you sincerely and earnestly desire it. But, if you don't desire it, why on earth should you be so incredibly foolish as to complain because God gives that which you don't like to other people?"

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View attachment 210211

So: "I'm outta here!"

God Bless

Till all are one.

Hello Deacon Dean:

Praise God, you and I are on the same page!

Your grammatical arguments, proof texts and cited sermons are sound biblical orthodoxy which has been believed throughout New Testament history.

The doctrine of Election unto Service is a recent invention of those who oppose the Sovereign Unconditional Election of God’s Chosen unto Salvation before the foundation of the Earth, according to the good pleasure of His will.

Sadly, no amount of proof texts and sermons will dissuade those whose minds and hearts are set in stone to believe the contrary.
 
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ICONBUSTERS

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My pleasure.


My view, as formed from studying all the examples of election in Scripture, is that the purpose of election, in general, is about service. Jesus Christ, the Elect One, serves as Savior, elect angels serve God, the people of Israel were elected to serve God, preserve and preach His Word (they failed repeatedly), etc.


This is the issue: where does Scripture specifically say that the "call (Greek-invite) to salvation is by the election of God"?


From Eph 1:4, we read that God chose (elected) "us" (believers) to be holy and blameless. This is service.


This examples supports my thesis.


Matt 22:14 isn't about salvation. How would one go about showing that it is, from the context?


Is this a reference to Matt 7:21-23? If so, it seems the point was that there will be many very religious people who believed that they must work for entrance into the kingdom, like the RCC, for example, and Mormons. The whole basis for that crowd's appeal for entering the kingdom was their works.


I'm not familiar with this parable. Please provide the location.


This is the first occurence of points to rebut. To which I've provided response and rebuttal.


I believe it proves mine. They were chosen to serve, not chosen for salvation.


No argument.


Where does the phrase "election of grace" occur in Scripture?


Scripture clearly indicates who God chooses for salvation; believers. That's who He chooses. We see the principle in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Since it pleases God to save those who believe, it is clear that is His choice.


Of course salvation is by grace, not merit. And 1 Cor 1:21 shows what pleases God; to save those who believe. Is there merit in believing in Christ? No. Salvation is not earned by believing in Christ. Paul made that point clear in Rom 4:4,5 where he contrasted works with grace.


There is only one condition; faith in Christ. And the reformed doctrine is "unconditional election", this alone proves that election cannot be about salvation, since God is pleased to save those who believe.

Consider this: if the reformed doctrine of unconditional election were true, then faith would NOT be a condition or requirement for salvation. But Paul made it clear that faith IS required, in his answer to a jailer in Acts 16:30-31.


Which I've just summarized.


What is still missing is any verse that links election to salvation.


No question about it.


And that is grace!


It seems you've equated "the elect" with "believers". I don't do that. Because of all the examples in Scripture.


It seems this is awfully close to the idea that God is the cause of one's action of belief, through regeneration which precedes faith. I can show the opposite from Scripture.


This is the only verse in Scripture where being "chosen to salvation" is worded.

So, let's examine the verse. The word here for "chosen" is 'haireomai', and never translated elected. The Greek verb translated elected is 'eklektomai'.

The difference here can be seen in the following:
Every election involves choice.
Very few choices involve election.

Secondly, the verse isn't about being chosen to salvation, but being chosen according to a mechanism. The mechanism of being saved is "belief of the truth".

This perfectly aligns with 1 Cor 1:21, that "God is pleased to save those who believe". So, 2 Thess 2:13 teaches that the fact that salvation is through belief in the truth" is God's choice. That's the plan He chose by which to save mankind.

There verse clearly is not about election at all.

Thank you, FreeGrace2, for your in-depth responses. I do appreciate your dedication and sincerity.

My view, as formed from studying all the examples of election in Scripture, is that the purpose of election, in general, is about service. Jesus Christ, the Elect One, serves as Savior, elect angels serve God, the people of Israel were elected to serve God, preserve and preach His Word (they failed repeatedly), etc.

First, let’s break this statement down and examine its contents.

Jesus Christ, the Elect One, serves as Savior

In this statement you have rightly equated election with salvation.

Christ was elected to save.

The Election are those He saves.

To whom does He serve as Savior?

Does He serve as Savior to all mankind since the beginning of the world?

If you answer, ‘yes,’ then why was the vast majority of mankind bereft of knowledge of salvation since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God?

the people of Israel were elected to serve God, preserve and preach His Word (they failed repeatedly), etc.

I can find no command for OT Israel to “go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature.”

I can, however, find the command to “go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”

This is the issue: where does Scripture specifically say that the "call (Greek-invite) to salvation is by the election of God"?

By using orthodox rules of scriptural interpretation, without excluding God-given common sense logic, one can find numerous examples whereby the call to salvation is by the election of God.

The Call of Abram
12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.” (NIV)

God called/chose/selected/elected Abram from a multitude of other idolatrous God-haters.

There was nothing ‘good’ in Abram which caused His calling/choice/selection/election.

His faith in the true God was non-existent.

Yet it pleased God to effectually and irresistibly call Abram to be the progenitor of God’s elect nation Israel.

From Abram’s spiritual lineage would come the blessed Messiah, the Elect Savior of God.

If God’s call to Abram was not a call to salvation, what was it?

According to your definition of election Abram was simply a believer called to serve the true God.

But Abram’s call was so much more, including Abram’s eternal salvation.

Now let’s examine Romans 8.

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth (verse 33).

Paul tells us God justifies the Elect.

In verse 28 Paul explains: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

God’s calling has a purpose.

According to your definition God’s calling has service as its purpose.

But according to Paul God’s calling is to justification and glorification:

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified (verse 30).

In other words, the key and central point Paul emphasizes is that eternal salvation is the ultimate and primary purpose of God’s call, service is nowhere mentioned.

A justified person is a saved person.

Those who are justified are called God’s Elect (verse 33).

God’s Elect were elected to justification, which is why they are called God’s Elect.

They were also called to justification (verse 30), which is the gracious effectual work of God who did the calling, and who will infallibly perform the work of glorification in those same Elect.

Conclusion: Election's ultimate and primary purpose is unto salvation.

TO BE CONTINUED……………
 
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Sadly, no amount of proof texts and sermons will dissuade those whose minds and hearts are set in stone to believe the contrary.

The seven churches of Revelation...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

A sardius is a gem set in stone. And to the Sardiseans the Lord says....

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5
 
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