Part 2 - The Creator has Invalidated Knowing Earth's Age Through Scientific Enquiry

TLK Valentine

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You would be up the creek without a paddle if you disregarded science in your understanding of the Bible. There is NOTHING wrong with old school interpretations as long as you take the new information into consideration. Bishop Ushers book is very accurate and he only looks at the last 6,000 years. He did not try to comment on something they knew nothing about at the time.

Bishop Ussher assumed that the last 6,000 years were the only 6,000 years. Shall we enshrine his error?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Bishop Ussher assumed that the last 6,000 years were the only 6,000 years.
Does not matter because his book is a history of the last 6,000 years and his book is very accurate. He has references that he used that are no longer available to us today because the information is preserved in his book.

If you want to throw the baby out with the bath water then go for it.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Does not matter because his book is a history of the last 6,000 years and his book is very accurate. He has references that he used that are no longer available to us today because the information is preserved in his book.

If you want to throw the baby out with the bath water then go for it.

But the same process that makes him so allegedly accurate makes him say the Earth was created 6,000 years ago... smells like the baby made a mess in the bath water.
 
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2tim_215

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A lot of people think that Shakespeare's plays were about life in general; they deal with such familiar matters as friendship, love, marriage, parenthood, jealousy, ambition, anger, revenge, and the class system, which we all have to deal with. Personally, I have learnt a great deal about what it is to be human from Shakespeare's plays. The fact that most of Shakespeare's characters were fictional is irrelevant: the reality of Hamlet's indecision, King Lear's madness, Othello's jealousy and Coriolanus's pride doesn't depend on the historicity of their characters.


In fact, the total of Shakespeare's combined works was about 38 plays (including The Two Noble Kinsmen, but excluding the lost works Cardenio and Love's Labour's Won), the 154 sonnets, the narrative poems Venus and Adonis and The Rape of Lucrece, and other poems such as A Lover's Complaint, The Passionate Pilgrim, and The Phoenix and the Turtle.


What do you mean when you say 'it is thought that the total # of Shakespeare's combined works ... were between 2-4B'?


As you say, a great many books have been written about Jesus, and the authors of these books differ widely in their interpretation of the man and his teaching. (So far as I can judge, these interpretations range from the historically plausible to the utterly fantastic.) Exactly the same is true of Shakespeare's works; there have been many books and articles written about them, with a very wide range of interpretations. The sheer range of interpretations casts doubts on all of them and suggests to me that we should be cautious in adopting a particular interpretation of Jesus (or of Shakespeare's works, for that matter).


What seems to me to be the fatal flaw in Christianity is that Jesus, and all the New Testament authors, taught that the end of the world was coming, that Jesus would return to judge the world in the lifetime of his hearers (Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34, Mark 9:1, Mark 13:30, Luke 9:27, Luke 21:32, Revelation 22:20), and that after his return everything would be different. However, at least 1980 years have passed since Jesus's death and he has not returned. More seriously, since Jesus did not give instructions to his followers about what system of government they should have, or what type of church organisation there should be, European societies for more than a thousand years after his death were modelled on the Roman system, for want of anything better, and the expectation of a supernatural intervention discouraged any human attempts to develop a better society.

I know that this is a long way from the topic of the possibility of knowing the Earth's age, but it seemed to me that your post demanded a long and careful reply.


Point by point:
1) The original context of this particular subject is the many books written about a historical man on top of the Bible which is about 4.5B copies estimated (coincidentally the same as the projected number for the Earth’s age according to Evos) and who (or what) or what can compare to that. The first comparisons were Mao Pse Tung's quote which come in 2nd compared to Jesus and the Bible addition to JK Rowland who I believe is 3rd.


My response was that JK's books were written solely for entertainment (which I'm sure there were some messages in there as well) and Mao's works (~4B) were written by an evil dictator who most likely forced his citizens to read his propagandistic materials in the largest populated country in the world. When you look at Jesus and what his teaching consisted of, any else written by man throughout his entire history pales in comparison. And you want to say that Shakespeare has contributed more to our society than Jesus has? Has Mao done the same? Or has JK Rowland, who BTW is about as supernatural as one can get?

Now most of Shakespeare's works are estimated to be between 2 to 4 Billion in total as far as # circulated. I said 37 plays (you say 38, so I was off by one) which were mostly fiction and the ones that weren't were all about men (all various Kings according to scholars) and 154 fourteen-line poems or sonnets unlike the Bible and Jesus Christ, which were all written about one man mainly and about real persons. The Bible had writings about many "real" men, in addition to Jesus, Mao’s writings (I'm sure) were just about Mao, and JK's were pure fantasy/fiction (although quite entertaining).

And unlike Mao, who did terrible things to humanity while ruling China under his communist regime with an iron fist, I know of very few people (with all their interpretations) who can claim that Jesus was an evil person and didn't teach great lessons for all humankind. Also, I don't know of too many people who can claim that Mao was some great person who they'd want to model their sons after.

2) As for what you call a "fatal flaw", Let's take a look at what you're referring to and see if that is true:

Luke 21:29-36(KJV)
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


generation G1074 γενεά genea ghen-eh-ah'

From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons):—age, generation, nation, time.

There's more than one way to interpret this. Of course, non-believers will always try to find ways to either make it seem to be a contradiction or illogical for obvious reasons. However, since we (as believers) who believe in God's undeniable truth, will always look first for a realistic and rational explanation before jumping to an illogical conclusion as we also believe that God and the Bible are both logical if interpreted properly.

The explanation here (I believe) is the Greek definition of the word "genea" or "generation" which can be "age" or even meant to be "nation" which in this particular instance would be Jews since that is who Jesus was speaking to, all Jews. If you consider it in the context in which it was given then age would make the most sense. Why? Well for one thing, look at the rest of the verse for further context (which so many who misinterpret or misuse scripture tend to "not do"). Jesus says, "until all be fulfilled".

What does that mean? Well, that's a qualifier. Again, trying to understand the context (which we need for a proper understanding) look at the next verse, 33. "heaven and Earth shall pass away (future event, since we are still here, would you agree?) which is the qualifier to this statement believe. So rephrasing, The Jewish Nation shall remain on this earth until all prophecy is fulfilled which means that there's more to come (prophetically) and as long as there are certain events that have not yet been fulfilled, the Nation Israel (and they being the generation to which Jesus is referring) will still be present on this earth.


Now as far as those who were alive at the time when Jesus spoke this, who would be eligible to be those who would see would see Him in His glory while still alive, let's try and see how this played out. First, keep in mind that the original scriptures were not put together the way our Bibles are structured today with Chapters and verses. This was something instituted by man in order to make it easier to reference certain portions that you like to get at more quickly. In the original, there were NO chapters and verses and aside from the overall book (which went by the writer or his scribes name) all verses were run together. As for the separating of the chapters, these too were decided by men who put the entire Bible together based on their own judgment for the most part.

Now, taking this into consideration, if we look at the verses in question, we will see that these all ended the chapter in which they were quoted and that being the case, whatever followed would have to be considered as part of the same context. So as a result, if we look to the next Chapter in our Bibles, we find that just 6 days later that this is when Jesus goes to the Mount of Transfiguration, and who accompanies Him? Peter, James and John, 3 of the disciples who happened to be with Him when He make this statement that there would see Him in His glorious state. So, ending with Matthew 6:18 we now go to Matthew 17:1:
Matthew 16:27-28(KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


The above is referencing a future event, but not the one regarding the next verse. However, we see what’s coming next in the next verse:

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

S what is He referring to? See starting in Matthew 17:
Matthew 17:1-13(KJV)
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


The word transfigure, is the Greek word metamorphoō where we get our English word metamorphose from.
transfigured - G3339 μεταμορφόω metamorphoō met-am-or-fo'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively “metamorphose”):—change, transfigure, transform.

Notice that in chapter 17, Jesus tells us that this was a vision, which was symbolic (visions are symbolic since they're not real, which is how you can tell to not take it as being literal, which makes sense) and didn't actually happen yet (although it will eventually happen, when Jesus makes His return visit and then , in fact will be literal) and that basically this is just a glimpse of what's to come, which is given to 3 of His most prominent disciples. So, I’m afraid that you have this wrong. There’s no “fatal flaw” here if you interpret it properly.

3) Now there's one more thing that I'd like to address, relating to your suggestions and that is with regards Jesus return. I'm go to re-quote you before I give my response:

[QUOTE="Astrophile]What seems to me to be the fatal flaw in Christianity is that Jesus, and all the New Testament authors, taught that the end of the world was coming, that Jesus would return to judge the world in the lifetime of his hearers (Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34, Mark 9:1, Mark 13:30, Luke 9:27, Luke 21:32, Revelation 22:20), and that after his return everything would be different. However, at least 1980 years have passed since Jesus's death and he has not returned. [/quote]

This was answered by Peter in his 2nd Epistle in which he actually prophesied that there would be those who would make the same kind of claims as you and others are making:
2 Peter 3:3-7(KJV)
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
scoffers - G1703 ἐμπαίκτης empaiktēs emp-aheek-tace'
From G1702; a derider, that is, (by implication) a false teacher:—mocker, scoffer.
4 And
saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Speaking of a catastrophic flood in the past.

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is exactly what we see today, which remarkably Peter spoke of almost 2000 years ago. Now we're not done. The question is why? Why is God waiting so long to do what He says He will inevitably do? Some of you might be rather surprised. Peter tells us in the same context in which we are looking: First he tells us about the way that God views time (something most might already be aware of with this next verse):

2 Peter 3:8(KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
What most might not be familiar with which comes in the very next verse:
2 Peter 3:9-10(KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
slack - G1019 βραδύνω bradunō brad-oo'-no
From G1021; to delay:—be slack, tarry.
slackness - G1022 βραδύτης bradutēs brad-oo'-tace

From G1021; tardiness:—slackness.
:—be slack, tarry.
longsuffering - G3114 μακροθυμέω makrothumeō mak-roth-oo-meh'-o
From the same as G3116; to be long spirited, that is, (objectively) forbearing or (subjectively) patient:—bear (suffer) long, be longsuffering, have (long) patience, be patient, patiently endure.
repentance - G3341 μετάνοια metanoia met-an'-oy-ah
From G3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication reversal (of [another’s] decision):—repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The reason why it has not yet happened thus far is because God is giving men (such as yourself) as much of a chance that He can to turn things around, since it is in fact not His desire that anyone should perish (not even you), otherwise he would have done it a long time ago, considering where man has taken himself up to this point with his disbelief.

4) I suppose that I should address one last point that you also brought up. As far as government is concerned, there is no earthly government that believers are to structure themselves after. It is the government of God that the original church was modeled after. We are told that our politics should be in heaven, and not on this earth (of course many Christians do not necessarily abide by this) although we are to respect and abide by our government's laws under the nation that we live in.

Recall that when Jesus was asked by the disciples if they were to pay taxes what Jesus did/said: He asked Peter to give him a coin. The coin was the Roman coinage at the time which had a picture of Caesar on it. He asked them whose picture was on the coin that He was given. The disciples said, Caesar and His response was "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render what is God's unto God"? Mark 12:13-17, Matthew 22:18-22, Unlike some of the false claims made against Him (back then and even today) Jesus never instructed His followers to revolt against the government and told them, (as did Paul) that they were to abide by the existing laws of the land. Also see Romans 13:1.

 
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Obliquinaut

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Ok, I will bite, tell me HOW you can figure out the age of the earth JUST using geology and nothing else.

Radiometric dating, of course. That's part of geology.

We can also use things like stratigraphy to understand that the earth is, by definition, very old. MUCH older than 6000 years. There's a formation called the Green River Fm in the west in the US that shows annual cycles from a large lake deposit. There are many, many, many times more than just 6000, ergo we know the earth is much older than 6000 years old from just that one place.

But we also know that it takes a long time to create things like large shale layers. The age of the earth is writ large in formations all over the earth. That coupled with the radiometric dating gives us a lot of detail about the age of the earth.
 
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2tim_215

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But the same process that makes him so allegedly accurate makes him say the Earth was created 6,000 years ago... smells like the baby made a mess in the bath water.
Way before Science even knew who Darwin was, James Ussher compiled his Chronology which was based on the History of Civilized man (not Neanderthol, or CroMagnum Man or "I-am-the-Ape man") back in the 1600's. Even the Atheist/Scientist Stephen Gould says that those who criticize Ussher have no business in doing so. The man was a great researcher. Back at that time, there was nothing (aside from the Bible) that was available for dating purposes (including science) and it appears as far as civilized man as we know it is concerned, this is true. What is also true is why are we so concerned with dating beings other than ourselves in addition to Cavemen and Dinosaurs, which is something I really found interesting as a child. Paul says:
1 Corinthians 13:11-12(KJV)
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

On Ussher: I challenge any one of you to prove to me that there is a more accurate dating system for civilized man that what Ussher proposed which he accumulated without Science.
James Ussher and His Chronology: Reasonable or Ridiculous? | The Institute for Creation Research
 
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TLK Valentine

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Point by point:
1) The original context of this particular subject is the many books written about a historical man on top of the Bible which is about 4.5B copies estimated (coincidentally the same as the projected number for the Earth’s age according to Evos) and who (or what) or what can compare to that. The first comparisons were Mao Pse Tung's quote which come in 2nd compared to Jesus and the Bible addition to JK Rowland who I believe is 3rd.

4.5 billion copies sold -- so what? What exactly does that prove?
My response was that JK's books were written solely for entertainment (which I'm sure there were some messages in there as well) and Mao's works (~4B) were written by an evil dictator who most likely forced his citizens to read his propagandistic materials in the largest populated country in the world. When you look at Jesus and what his teaching consisted of, any else written by man throughout his entire history pales in comparison. And you want to say that Shakespeare has contributed more to our society than Jesus has? Has Mao done the same? Or has JK Rowland, who BTW is about as supernatural as one can get?


Now most of Shakespeare's works are estimated to be between 2 to 4 Billion in total as far as # circulated. I said 37 plays (you say 38, so I was off by one) which were mostly fiction and the ones that weren't were all about men (all various Kings according to scholars) and 154 fourteen-line poems or sonnets unlike the Bible and Jesus Christ, which were all written about one man mainly and about real persons. The Bible had writings about many "real" men, in addition to Jesus, Mao’s writings (I'm sure) were just about Mao, and JK's were pure fantasy/fiction (although quite entertaining).

And unlike Mao, who did terrible things to humanity while ruling China under his communist regime with an iron fist, I know of very few people (with all their interpretations) who can claim that Jesus was an evil person and didn't teach great lessons for all humankind. Also, I don't know of too many people who can claim that Mao was some great person who they'd want to model their sons after.

You're still claiming Jesus' popularity is the basis for his... what, exactly?


4) I suppose that I should address one last point that you also brought up. As far as government is concerned, there is no earthly government that believers are to structure themselves after. It is the government of God that the original church was modeled after. We are told that our politics should be in heaven, and not on this earth (of course many Christians do not necessarily abide by this) although we are to respect and abide by our government's laws under the nation that we live in.

Recall that when Jesus was asked by the disciples if they were to pay taxes what Jesus did/said: He asked Peter to give him a coin. The coin was the Roman coinage at the time which had a picture of Caesar on it. He asked them whose picture was on the coin that He was given. The disciples said, Caesar and His response was "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render what is God's unto God"? Mark 12:13-17, Matthew 22:18-22, Unlike some of the false claims made against Him (back then and even today) Jesus never instructed His followers to revolt against the government and told them, (as did Paul) that they were to abide by the existing laws of the land. Also see Romans 13:1.

Good thing, too. Jesus was no dummy; the Romans were well aware of the Jewish belief in a "Messiah," to the point where to so much as claim to be one was considered treasonous by the Roman authorities -- and the penalty for treason was crucifixion.

Goes a long way to explain why Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, and not the Son of God, and his response to Pilate's questioning -- "Are you the King of the Jews?" "It is you who say I am."

Seems to me that Jesus didn't do this for his own benefit -- he knew his case was a lost cause; he knew a kangaroo court when he was in one -- but more for the benefit of his disciples. Rome had a habit of cracking down on "Messiahs" and their followers.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Way before Science even knew who Darwin was, James Ussher compiled his Chronology which was based on the History of Civilized man (not Neanderthol, or CroMagnum Man or "I-am-the-Ape man") back in the 1600's.

...and made the critical error of thinking that his one source was complete and accurate, which is why 6,000 years is all he was able (or even willing) to come up with.

Even the Atheist/Scientist Stephen Gould says that those who criticize Ussher have no business in doing so. The man was a great researcher.

Ussher's work was meticulous, but incomplete. We've come a long way since him... well, most of us have.

Back at that time, there was nothing (aside from the Bible) that was available for dating purposes (including science) and it appears as far as civilized man as we know it is concerned, this is true.

Actually, this is wrong. Ussher was able to use secular history as a cornerstone of his research: The death of Nebuchadnezzar in 562 BC, and worked his way backwards from there.

On Ussher: I challenge any one of you to prove to me that there is a more accurate dating system for civilized man that what Ussher proposed which he accumulated without Science.
James Ussher and His Chronology: Reasonable or Ridiculous? | The Institute for Creation Research

You mean with Science -- or did he just sit in a corner and pray for his answers?
 
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2tim_215

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Radiometric dating, of course. That's part of geology.

We can also use things like stratigraphy to understand that the earth is, by definition, very old. MUCH older than 6000 years. There's a formation called the Green River Fm in the west in the US that shows annual cycles from a large lake deposit. There are many, many, many times more than just 6000, ergo we know the earth is much older than 6000 years old from just that one place.

But we also know that it takes a long time to create things like large shale layers. The age of the earth is writ large in formations all over the earth. That coupled with the radiometric dating gives us a lot of detail about the age of the earth.
This appears to be scientific to me. I don't profess to be a scientist so I'll let the scientists look at it and check their responses but regardless, it appears that there are scientists out there who don't agree with a lot of your conclusions (the data in these links had to be acquired by people with scientific backgrounds, it's too detailed and technical). So having said that, I'm willing to let the Scientists be the experts on Science if you are willing to let the Bible Scholars be the experts on the Bible. Now when the scientists but heads with each other, I say let them "battle it out" and when the Bible Scholars butt heads, let them do the same.
Scientist Realizes Important Flaw in Radioactive Dating – Proslogion
The Age of the Earth: Evidence for a Young Earth, Young Earth Evidences.
 
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2tim_215

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...and made the critical error of thinking that his one source was complete and accurate, which is why 6,000 years is all he was able (or even willing) to come up with.
Basically if was his only source, back then. I'm sure if there were others, he'd have certainly searched it out since he was an astute researcher/historian, probably the best of his time. As for your "critical error" do you mean the one you're (or some scientists) commit today, leaving out the Bible and not willing to consider supernatural events:? That would help you a lot more if you were willing to take that into consideration. As I've said, creation Scientists have a leg up on you since they can look at both sides and see how they mesh.


Ussher's work was meticulous, but incomplete. We've come a long way since him... well, most of us have.
As complete as it could be, during the time he conducted it.


Actually, this is wrong. Ussher was able to use secular history as a cornerstone of his research: The death of Nebuchadnezzar in 562 BC, and worked his way backwards from there.

And where did he obtain this history?

Mostly from the Bible wasn't it?

You mean with Science -- or did he just sit in a corner and pray for his answers?[/QUOTE]
The same way anyone does who conducts solid research (or should I say "should" your "un-favorite" word)?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Ussher's work was meticulous, but incomplete. We've come a long way since him... well, most of us have.
Actually just the opposite is true. Usher's book for the most part covers the last 6,000 years starting with Adam. He has very little to say about Genesis chapter one. At the time Usher had a lot of history books outside of the Bible available to him. They are no longer available for us to study today and we only have what Usher was able to preserve for us in his book.
 
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joshua 1 9

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But the same process that makes him so allegedly accurate makes him say the Earth was created 6,000 years ago... smells like the baby made a mess in the bath water.
Bishop Usher spends very little time dealing with Genesis chapter one. His books has almost 1,000 pages that deals with the genealogies and the history of the last 6,000 years. The Bible actually has more information about Genesis chapter one but Bishop Usher does not get into a discussion on that.

One example is what Solomon tells us: "He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end." (Ecclesiates 3:11)

Or lolam {o-lawm'}; from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always -- alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare netsach, ad.

Ushers book has almost 1,000 pages and almost nothing talks about what happened before Adam was born. The book is a history of the last 6,000 years. It is amazing how people have opinions about something they have not studies and a book they have not. Why don't you get a copy and read the book and then you will be qualified to talk about it.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Bishop Ussher assumed that the last 6,000 years were the only 6,000 years. Shall we enshrine his error?
Bishop Usher could only use what science had at the time. If he was alive today with all the information we have then he may have more to say about the subject.

That is the whole point. The reason I brought Usher up is because his beliefs are not tainted by modern science. He just goes by the bible and the history books. In the same way Gerald Schroeder looks at the great Kubbalah teachers from 1,000 years ago to avoid teaching that is tainted by modern science. For example Nachmanides and Maimonides are still well known and studies today.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Actually just the opposite is true. Usher's book for the most part covers the last 6,000 years starting with Adam.

You're missing the point -- or perhaps avoiding it.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Bishop Usher could only use what science had at the time. If he was alive today with all the information we have then he may have more to say about the subject.

Correct -- meanwhile, we are alive today, and we've used the information he didn't have to move well beyond him... well, most of us have.
 
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Ophiolite

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Correct -- meanwhile, we are alive today, and we've used the information he didn't have to move well beyond him... well, most of us have.
As I read this I am watching my three year old grandson amuse himself. He has an understandng of the world that would be alien, in many ways, to that of adults. I can reasonably expect that, as he grows and matures, he will discard, adapt, expand and add to many of the aspects of this understanding. (I hope this will include a strong element of critical thinking.) By remaining "faithful" to a view that has been superceded by much evidence, some people seem determined to remain as children.

(In anticipation of someone asserting the innocence of children, I would respond "spend 20 minutes in any kindergarten and then tell me children are innocent.)
 
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2tim_215

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As I read this I am watching my three year old grandson amuse himself. He has an understandng of the world that would be alien, in many ways, to that of adults. I can reasonably expect that, as he grows and matures, he will discard, adapt, expand and add to many of the aspects of this understanding. (I hope this will include a strong element of critical thinking.) By remaining "faithful" to a view that has been superceded by much evidence, some people seem determined to remain as children.

(In anticipation of someone asserting the innocence of children, I would respond "spend 20 minutes in any kindergarten and then tell me children are innocent.)
LOL. So true.
 
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2tim_215

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Correct -- meanwhile, we are alive today, and we've used the information he didn't have to move well beyond him... well, most of us have.
. Question for you TK. What historical evidence exists of men prior to 4004 BC? Not talking about bones here. Names of any persons? Any biographies out there?
 
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Joseppi

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Yes but the issue becomes confused very fast when man was told not to eat from the tree of good and evil. Each chapter in the story takes us to the next level of understanding.

Genesis 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Genesis 3:6 ""For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Again I refer you to Genesis 1:31 as the reference I used. You seem to want to discusd sime other subject.
 
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