For clarity: When you baptize a baby...

Jipsah

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On to your theory: Why does a baby need to have a few drops of water sprinkled on it's head for adults to take vows to faithfully raise the baby Christian ? Seems to me you would lay hands or pray over the adults involved, not the baby who knows nothing about faith. At best sprinkling the baby is a feel good gesture.
Unless you believe that baptism is somehow magic, having water sprinkled or poured on you, or being dunked in it, serves no particular purpose. But our Lord commanded it, and most of us are willing to do as He said and not to argue the point with Him. Our Lord gave no instructions as to the age or amount of knowledge required of the person being baptized. He didn't call for a "profession of faith", and He said nothing about "an outward sign of inward grace", although that does sound nice. He just said do it.

Baptism as I know it is a personal and willful, open and public confession of faith in Jesus Christ and is full immersion like Jesus himself was dunked.
I'll place a "thus saith Dave" on that and take it at the price charged.

If that was right for our Lord
Ah, but the Lord didn't say any of that stuff, Dave did. Big difference.
 
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Dave G.

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Unless you believe that baptism is somehow magic, having water sprinkled or poured on you, or being dunked in it, serves no particular purpose. But our Lord commanded it, and most of us are willing to do as He said and not to argue the point with Him. Our Lord gave no instructions as to the age or amount of knowledge required of the person being baptized. He didn't call for a "profession of faith", and He said nothing about "an outward sign of inward grace", although that does sound nice. He just said do it.

I'll place a "thus saith Dave" on that and take it at the price charged.

Ah, but the Lord didn't say any of that stuff, Dave did. Big difference.
Jipsah, I rather like what you have said. Thanks for the reminder of my position !

On another note, I did the same as Jesus did, who said baptize me and then He went into the water to be baptized. That is what I wanted and is what I did, feeling it was closest to what He did. Not to mention it's just how my church group does it anyway, which obviously would not be deemed sufficient in the Orthodox church..
 
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thecolorsblend

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Since we are not in the cloistered "Traditional Theology" forum, I guess it is OK to point out some FALSE DOCTRINES, primarily espoused by the RCC.
Um, Catholics, Orthodox, many Lutherans, many Anglicans and I think even many Methodists believe in infant baptism.

As to the rest...

The one true "baptism" is SPIRITUAL BAPTISM of the saved believer.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (all NASB)
For by one (God the Holy) Spirit we (believers)
were all baptized into one body, (Body of Christ = The "CHURCH")
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free,
and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.(of God)

Association with the new life in Christ

Romans 6:1-7...Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be!
How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized INTO Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Ephesians 4 (NASB)...Paul: to believers
4 There is one body (of Christ) and one Spirit,(God the Holy Spirit)
just as also you were CALLED in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

TYPES:
1. Spiritual Baptism into the Body of Christ
2. The symbolic ritual water baptism of true BELIEVERS, outward sign of an inner change
3. The symbolic ritual water baptism of INFANTS, un-mature spirits, mindless (to wash away "original sin?)

MarK 10:39
They (disciples) said to Him, “We are able.”
And Jesus said to them,
“The cup that I drink you shall drink; and
you shall be (are certain to be) baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.

you shall be baptized (Phrase)...Greek 907... baptizo...
I.to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
II.to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
III.to overwhelm

baptízo-from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash.

Like dying a cloth:
go in neutral, immersed, emerge CHANGED...a different color / character.

There is no EXPLICIT statement in the Bible that unknowing INFANTS must have ritual water baptism to be saved.

TRADITION + RCC INTERPRETATION...This sacrament removes "original sin". If you trace the word baptize / baptism throughout the NT, there are only references to the ceremonial/ritual water baptism of saved believers...an OUTward symbol if an INward John 3 born again from above spiritual change.

NOTE: Mark 16 verses 9 to end were ADDED to the oldest MSS. UNRELIABLE!...ESPECIALLY to build a doctrine on ONE verse. CHILDREN can be true believers, but not unknowing UN-sinful INFANT!

AGAIN..There is no clear, unambiguous Scripure that COMMANDS ritual water baptism of INFANTS as a condition of spiritual salvation! Look for SPIRITUAL BAPTISM!

John 4:23-24
But an hour is coming, and now is,
when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Baptism isn't a work Man does.

Spiritual Baptism is a work God does when your spirit changes at salvation.
Ritual water baptism symbolizes being immersed dirty (sinful) and coming up cleansed (forgiven)

(spiritual) baptism NOW saves you...through (due to) the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Acts 2:38(NASB)...MIRACULOUS PENTECOST DAY...the birthday OF the CHURCH
38 Peter said to them,
“Repent,(turn to God)) and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
for (BECAUSE OF) the forgiveness of your sins; and
you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

parse:
Repent (turn to God) , and be (spiritually) baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
for (because of) the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of (be indwelt by) the Holy Ghost.

Note the FOLLOWING ORDER:

Matthew 28: 16-20 ...The Risen Jesus' last Words?...The Great Commission
16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.
When they SAW Him, (in His "spirit body" form) they WORSHIPED Him;(as God!)
but some were doubtful (of what they were SEEING!).
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, (I don't require WORSHIP...I require FOLLOWING!)
“All (spiritual) AUTHORITY has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
(a) GO therefore and
(b) MAKE DISCIPLES of ALL the NATIONS, (convert them THEN:)
(c) baptizing THEM (believing followers!) in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, (TRI-UNE GOD)
(d) TEACHING them to OBSERVE all that I commanded you; (example and precepts)
and lo, I am with you always (spiritually), even to "the end of the (CHURCH) age".” (age of GRACE)

Psalm 51:2
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.

The doctrine of "Original sin", also called "ancestral sin," is a FALSE DOCTRINE, unsupported by Scripture and probably a result of RCC dogma.

DEFINED?:

1. humanity's STATE of sin resulting from the False Doctrine known as the "fall of man", (Genesis 3)

2. stemming from A&E's "rebellion" in Eden.

3. deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as Man's "sin nature",

4. T = "Total Depravity" or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt. (Calvinistic!)

The concept of "original sin" was first alluded to in the 2nd century by Irenaeus, a "traditional" "church father".

My Guess/Analysis:
1. A&E were the FIRST to disobey God's FIRST command -Adamic "SIN"..."original" is a misnomer.
2. A&E were the "Parents" of all...including Jesus the God-Man, who was SINLESS and needed no "baptism"
3. Mankind/angels were given the spiritual gift of "free will" to obey/disobey God when SPIRITUALLY CALLED/DRAWN.
4. Mankind's innate spiritual "nature is to turn away FROM God and turn TO self...the "sin nature"...the "flesh".
5. The NEW sinless Adam , i.e. Jesus is the only way to salvation. John 14:6 >The Divine Messiah came down from heaven (the TRI-UNE GOD) to saves MAN from SIN / SIN(S) / SIN NATURE and eternal spiritual separation. Jesus RECONCILED God to Man!

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Romans 3 (ALL NASB)
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who BELIEVE;
for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned (ARE IMPERFECT) and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through FAITH.
Your evasion of certain passages is impressive.

Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
- St. John 3:5

Our Lord declared that being born again of water and the Holy Ghost is prerequisite to entering the kingdom of God.

Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him."
- Acts 2:38-39

St. Peter evidently believed that baptism was tied to the forgiveness of sins. He doesn't say "Accept the Lord into your heart as your personal lord and savior, pray the sinner's prayer and that's how you become a Christian". No, baptism is tied to the forgiveness of sins.

Any number of passages that appear to say something different don't magically overrule the above passages. Baptism is required to enter the kingdom of God and it relates to the forgiveness of sins.

Thus, the Catholic Church holds that baptism affects the soul in some way. And evidently we're not alone in that belief either. This notion that baptism cannot be applied to infants because they can't make a choice for themselves in the matter is man-made tradition being projected onto the scriptures. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what the scriptures actually say or what the Church has believed all through history.

I have not seen an RCC poster here. I am of Antioch.
I posted on the first page or maybe the second. :D
 
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Anguspure

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Get up and go to Church!
Celebrate the risen Lord Jesus Christ with others!

Forgive me...
Forgive me if this is not what you meant but, I am glad you typed this at a time that I am not hundreds of miles away from land, let alone other believers. I spent my time yesterday with people who care that I am there and usually have to celebrate Christ alone.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Jipsah, I rather like what you have said. Thanks for the reminder of my position !

On another note, I did the same as Jesus did, who said baptize me and then He went into the water to be baptized. That is what I wanted and is what I did, feeling it was closest to what He did. Not to mention it's just how my church group does it anyway, which obviously would not be deemed sufficient in the Orthodox church..
Maybe. What did it mean to you when it was done? Was it for the remission of sins? Was Father, Son and Holy Spirit mentioned?

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Deuteronomy 11:19
You shall teach them (Mosaic Laws) to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up...
Raising children has not changed. :amen:

Forgive me...
 
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ViaCrucis

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That's the thing though about vows: they are not part of baptism. Jesus did not make a vow when He was baptized nor did He even allude to it being a vow of any kind.

No, but it is something the Church freely does of her own volition. As the Body of Christ we are in this together, and so when the Lord brings someone in through the doors of the Church, through the waters of Baptism, we receive them and pledge ourselves to them. In the case of infants, we join together with the parents to pledge ourselves to the raising of those children in the faith, that they might grow in the Lord who gives Himself freely in Baptism. We don't make this pledge because it is a commanded rite; but as a free act of love. St. Paul teaches us that no member of the Body can survive without the rest of the Body, and so the Body comes together here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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No raising children has not changed but, this does not prove that baptism is a vow.
Proof? I’m not sure I could prove anything.

I do know that The Church teaches that it replaced being circumcised.

Forgive me...
 
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Dave G.

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Maybe. What did it mean to you when it was done? Was it for the remission of sins? Was Father, Son and Holy Spirit mentioned?

Forgive me...
Lets say for the washing of them away, I felt they were forgiven but not washed away. I had come to Jesus decades before but I found myself being drawn to a washing in water the way Jesus did it . It came to me one Sunday evening while reading in my bible upstairs in my bed, out of no where. I saw my pastor and we planned about two months in advance, the pastor told me then that this was the Holy Spirit calling me and telling me I needed to be baptized and I better do it. So we planned a date, had a few people in attendance ( plus a fisherman or two unintentionally). It was a proclamation of Christian faith, forgiveness of sin and something weighing on my heart all accomplished in one. When I came up out of the water everyone was there and I felt like a chapter of a book was closed that day. Not that emotion means a whole lot. It needed to be done and it was done..

So I was asked before I went under the water if I believed the Gospel, that Jesus came for the forgiveness of our sins, died, was buried and rose again on the third day and sits at the right hand of the father. I was asked if I take Him as my savior, I said yes I do believe all that. And the pastor said I baptize you in the name of the Father The Son and the Holy Spirit and I took the dunk right over my head and back up again.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Lets say for the washing of them away, I felt they were forgiven but not washed away. I had come to Jesus decades before but I found myself being drawn to a washing in water the way Jesus did it . It came to me one Sunday evening while reading in my bible upstairs in my bed, out of no where. I saw my pastor and we planned about two months in advance, the pastor told me then that this was the Holy Spirit calling me and telling me I needed to be baptized and I better do it. So we planned a date, had a few people in attendance ( plus a fisherman or two unintentionally). It was a proclamation of Christian faith, forgiveness of sin and something weighing on my heart all accomplished in one. When I came up out of the water everyone was there and I felt like a chapter of a book was closed that day. Not that emotion means a whole lot. It needed to be done and it was done..

So I was asked before I went under the water if I believed the Gospel, that Jesus came for the forgiveness of our sins, died, was buried and rose again on the third day and sits at the right hand of the father. I was asked if I take Him as my savior, I said yes I do believe all that. And the pastor said I baptize you in the name of the Father The Son and the Holy Spirit and I took the dunk right over my head and back up again.

Sounds good to me... now just the other steps need be completed before you partake of communion.

Forgive me...
 
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Ronald

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What I took from his post is that salvation isn't confined to a single moment in time but instead is a transformation (for want of a better word) that spreads through time. I interpreted his comment to mean that salvation occurs in 4D terms: I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved. @OrthodoxyUSA I'm not sure if that's what you meant but that's how I took it.

You're married, eh?
It happens in Gods domain, outside of time, but in our time frame, in a moment.
This already/not yet is a play with words. I was married on Aug. 10, 2007 around 1 PM. I can say I was, am and will be married too,,but it happened at a particular moment. I was saved on Jan. 1, 1991. I knew and experienced God orchestrating all the events and people that led up to that moment when my eyes were opened, I was cleansed and received Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I was born again. We will be transformed into new eternal bodies at His return _ in one moment as well_ in the twinkling of an eye _ at the last trumpet.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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That is not talking about baptizing babies?
What "training" are you giving a new born baby?
I don't know about you, but I have a habit of talking to them before they are born. I usually put my hand on my wife's belly and lean in real close and sing to them. We have three.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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There are no pre-requirements to the Lord's command"
"Do this in remembrance of me."

Luke 22:19

1 Corinthians 11:24-25
There are if you are an adult. Check out the guy who showed up without a garment.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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The goal of baptism is to partake in communion.

So strong is the need to be together. That is what this does, returns one to the whole. Securing a rightful place by practicing a set of Christian beliefs with the others.

Forgive me...
 
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thecolorsblend

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It happens in Gods domain, outside of time, but in our time frame, in a moment.
This already/not yet is a play with words. I was married on Aug. 10, 2007 around 1 PM. I can say I was, am and will be married too,,but it happened at a particular moment. I was saved on Jan. 1, 1991. I knew and experienced God orchestrating all the events and people that led up to that moment when my eyes were opened, I was cleansed and received Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I was born again. We will be transformed into new eternal bodies at His return _ in one moment as well_ in the twinkling of an eye _ at the last trumpet.
Marriage is not understood by the Catholic Church (and, I assume, by the Orthodox Church) to be transformative in the same way that salvation is, due in no small part because God is both the instigator and the agent of our salvation. Comparing that to the sacrament of marriage seems specious to me.
 
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Ronald

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Marriage is not understood by the Catholic Church (and, I assume, by the Orthodox Church) to be transformative in the same way that salvation is, due in no small part because God is both the instigator and the agent of our salvation. Comparing that to the sacrament of marriage seems specious to me.
It was the first thought that came to my mind. I was just comparing things that are done in our temporal realm to things that are done in the spiritual realm. I stand firm in my belief that my salvation is secure and is not something that was merited over a long period nor did it require a process. I believe it happened at a particular moment in our temporal time domain but was a done deal in God's eternal realm. Faith is a gift, not earned. Jesus washing your sins is done in the twinkling of an eye, so that if any any moment death comes, we are presented to the Father spotless. It has to done instantly. It was for the thief on the cross next to Jesus, it is prior to a person's death who is given his last rights if he is truly repentant. Again, the Holy Spirit cannot live in a dirty Temple that He cleans up on a daily basis removing this sin and that sin over a lifetime. Your spiritual nature is pure and clean, IT IS OUR FLESH THAT STILL HAS SIN AND THAT IS SEPARATE FROM OUR SPIRITUAL TEMPLE AS IT WAS BEHIND A VEIL IN THE OLD PHYICAL TEMPLE. We are sanctified throughout our lives so that we can grow in our faith and bare fruit in this temporal world, but heaven is eternally secured -- otherwise what is faith worth if you cannot feel secure, it's a contradiction. It's like saying I'm insecure about my security or the substance and evidence of my faith is not fully processed yet ... maybe someday?
No, we have substance and evidence of our salvation.
 
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