Does 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 teach that we are not saved by faith?

Soyeong said:

Do you not consider his writings to have the weight of Scripture? If not, why not?

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I do not believe the individual writers of letters to specific churches
intended for the letters to become included in scripture.

SkyWriting said:

I do not believe the individual writers of letters to specific churches
intended for the letters to become included in scripture.

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I agree that probably was the case, but regardless of what they intended, their letters quickly became regarded as Scripture. In 2 Peter 3:16, it equates Paul's writings with Scripture, and 1 Timothy 5:18 quotes Luke 10:7 as Scripture.

Soyeong said:

According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, which sounds a lot like discipleship to me.

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Salvation produces discipleship just as a tree produces fruit. But the fruit does not come first, the tree does. And if you think this is a chicken versus the egg statement, trees were created mature by God in the beginning, not the seed.

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. I find that people whose focus on the works side of the coin, tend to be proud and self righteous, not humble and grateful. The two can not be separated, but like the above analogy, faith produces works and comes first.

AlexDTX said:

Salvation produces discipleship just as a tree produces fruit. But the fruit does not come first, the tree does. And if you think this is a chicken versus the egg statement, trees were created mature by God in the beginning, not the seed.

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. I find that people whose focus on the works side of the coin, tend to be proud and self righteous, not humble and grateful. The two can not be separated, but like the above analogy, faith produces works and comes first.

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Nevertheless, Titus 2:14 describes our salvation as being trained by grace, so that an aspect of our salvation.

mmbattlestar said:

I recently made a topic about how we are saved by faith and this was brought up in another thread and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss in a separate thread. 1 Cor 6:9-10 reads:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith? Or that there are conditions to our faith? We must not be sexually immoral, commit idolatry, adultry (Which is a difficult one Jesus said that to even look at a woman in lust is adultery), Homosexual, a thief, a drunk, or swindlers? Not to disagree with Paul but, I thought that the law was covered by love in the NC? Or is these verses teaching that a true faith would not exude these kinds of things? Just like a true faith would show works and a love for God and others? I also notice in the next verse it says

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Does that mean that people who were washed and baptized by the Holy Spirit that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 doesn't even apply to them?

Discuss.

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Romans chapter 4 verses 14,15
For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.


Proverbs chapter 10 verse 12
Love covers all wrongs.


1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.

mmbattlestar said:

I recently made a topic about how we are saved by faith and this was brought up in another thread and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss in a separate thread. 1 Cor 6:9-10 reads:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith? Or that there are conditions to our faith? We must not be sexually immoral, commit idolatry, adultry (Which is a difficult one Jesus said that to even look at a woman in lust is adultery), Homosexual, a thief, a drunk, or swindlers? Not to disagree with Paul but, I thought that the law was covered by love in the NC? Or is these verses teaching that a true faith would not exude these kinds of things? Just like a true faith would show works and a love for God and others? I also notice in the next verse it says

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Does that mean that people who were washed and baptized by the Holy Spirit that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 doesn't even apply to them?

Discuss.

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the love and (the) faith of Jesus and the other true Saints is what washes, sanctifies, justifies and baptizes humans; so it is faith

Blessings

Soyeong said:

Nevertheless, Titus 2:14 describes our salvation as being trained by grace, so that an aspect of our salvation.

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Yahweh Says much about salvation (from several things)
and faith - more a description of the people of faith and what they do, not what "faith" is usually.

Many people might be saved sometimes, for a day, or a year, or 50 years, from the power of the world, the prince of the power of the air, and then in some trouble , some severity , they choose to give up, to cave in, to go along with something not in Yahweh's Plan - to go along with something for SUPPORT?FOOD/Clothes/Shelter/Medicine/Help Living....
and thus they turn (come to) depend on flesh/ the world/ apart from Christ.

mmbattlestar said:

I recently made a topic about how we are saved by faith and this was brought up in another thread and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss in a separate thread. 1 Cor 6:9-10 reads:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith?

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If faith is thought of as belief without actions that bear out what is believed then yes, no one is saved by that kind of faith.

mmbattlestar said:

Does that mean that people who were washed and baptized by the Holy Spirit that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 doesn't even apply to them?

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It does apply to them. Notice the progression. Verses 9-10 refer to various sins/sinners who will not inherit the kingdom of God. In v.11 Paul uses the past tense to refer to believers pointing out "that is what some of you were" - prior to being saved. Then later in v.18 he commands these regenerated believers to "flee from sexual immorality" because they were "bought at a price." It is obvious that their salvation was bought at a price, therefore Paul warns that their salvation is at stake should they not choose to flee from sexual immorality and return to their former sinful behaviors. Some would still object though and claim that the reference to the "kingdom of God" is not the same as salvation/eternal life. One poster mentioned it refers to sanctification/discipleship and not salvation. Let's allow Jesus himself to define what he meant when he referred to the kingdom of God. Is it sanctification or salvation? In Lk 18:18 the rich young ruler asks Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. Later in v.24 in response to this young man, Jesus tells him "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!" In these two verses we find Jesus equating eternal life with the kingdom of God - one and the same thing. Therefore going back to 1 Cor 6, believers who revert back to their former sins, will not inherit the kingdom of God and therefore will no longer possess their salvation.

Those who have been born again don't like the darkness.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jesus doesn't lead people to sin.

SkyWriting said:

Paul was under the impression that everyone must behave like himself.
He was like this before his conversion, as well as after.
All of Paul's writings reveal his personality. I didn't say His.

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Huh?

I think this question is hard to answer.

The context of 1 Cor 6:9 isn’t judgement. He’s saying that becoming a Christian is supposed to change us. We’re supposed to put our old selves behind. But in other places Paul is also clear that this doesn’t happen completely during this life. So I wouldn’t want to cite this passage as saying that anyone with sin is damned. Nor should we try to take the specific examples and turn them into sins that can’t forgiven, while others can. After all, he gives a variety of different types, ranging from sexual sin to being drunkards.

Gal 5:16 ff is similar, with a list long enough that I think it includes everyone. Again, he’s not saying how we’re going to be judged, but rather defining the difference in the fruit of the Spirit and the works of the flesh.

Rom 2, particularly 2:12-13 does suggest at least some judgement by works, although the context may tend to undermine that, since the arc of which it’s part is actually intended to establish justification by faith.

I’m not convinced that Paul is saying that anyone who commits sins on those lists is damned. That would contradict justification by faith. But he also doesn’t want justification by faith to be taken to imply that works are irrelevant. Those who have the Spirit will do works of the Spirit. I would say 1 Cor 3:12 is more directly intended to talk about how this works out in judgement.

mmbattlestar said:

I recently made a topic about how we are saved by faith and this was brought up in another thread and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss in a separate thread. 1 Cor 6:9-10 reads:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith? Or that there are conditions to our faith? We must not be sexually immoral, commit idolatry, adultry (Which is a difficult one Jesus said that to even look at a woman in lust is adultery), Homosexual, a thief, a drunk, or swindlers? Not to disagree with Paul but, I thought that the law was covered by love in the NC? Or is these verses teaching that a true faith would not exude these kinds of things? Just like a true faith would show works and a love for God and others? I also notice in the next verse it says

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Does that mean that people who were washed and baptized by the Holy Spirit that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 doesn't even apply to them?

Discuss.

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Being washed, refers to our ways being cleansed by God's word. Just as when Jesus told Peter this:

John 13:8 - 8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

What Jesus was referring to here, wasn't simply washing Peter's feet. It was washing his way. Washing how Peter did things, and saw things. Jesus is the word, and this symbolized that the word of God cleanses those whom read and believe it. He was cleansing Peter of the traditions and doctrines of man that they had established at this point.

Here's what God's Spirit causes one to do:

Ezekiel 36:26-27 -
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Here we see that His spirit, will cause the person born of it, to walk in His statutes, to keep His judgements, and to do them. Thereby cleansing the person's steps of the unrighteousness of their own judgement, and relying instead on the word of God to guide their steps.

The 1 Corinthians verse you mention, is a good warning to all. It's something that demands that we self-examine ourselves, and while it was specifically targeting the churches of Corinth, it serves as a wake up call for all. It does still pertain to those washed in the Spirit however. Just as Abraham was justified and saved by faith alone, he still got circumcised to be the "sign" of his salvation and covenant with God. Just as this, we are to obey God's word. Because it is a testament to the Spirit that lives on in us. If we disregard God's Law, well, there is one spirit that disregarded God's Law from the beginning, and it's not the Spirit of God. If we however highly esteem His Law, and desire to obey and keep it, teaching it, not only is it how we are to love God, but it's also a testament to which Spirit lives in us. There is only one truth, and that's the way He gave us, that's written in the first five books of the bible. The Torah can be shown all throughout the bible. It never changes, and it's something that still stands today.

Whether it's Abraham keeping the law - Genesis 26:5
Noah observing clean and unclean animals - Genesis 7:2
Or Noah even giving a burnt offering to God (something gone over in more detail on Mount Sinai) - Genesis 8:20
Paul keeping the Passover and Unleavened Bread (God's Holy Days gone over in Leviticus 23) after Jesus ascended - Acts 20:6
Or even God observing the Sabbath before man even existed - Genesis 2:2-3

My point is, that God, nor His Law, change. It and He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Through tradition we've been made to believe it has, but it hasn't. The Law isn't a curse, the curse only comes when we break the Law. Just as He promises us, those who practice and observe the Law, He has to bless, and those that practice the breaking of it, and disregard it, He has to curse.

I'm not saying that we're saved by our observance to the law, not at all. We're saved by faith alone, but as it's said "faith without works is dead". What is our faith worth, if it isn't made whole by action.

Soyeong said:

In Matthew 5:19, Jesus said that anyone who relaxes the least of the laws or teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom, while anyone who practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the Kingdom, so we have a very clear standard. The reason why our righteousness must exceed the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law in order in order to enter the Kingdom is straightforwardly because they were not even meeting the lower standard of what it took to be called least in the Kingdom, so I completely agree that we should not model ourselves after their behavior, but it is important to correctly understand what they were doing. In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He then went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they taught as doctrine the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so Jesus criticized them for not following God's Law and for teaching their own traditions in place of it.

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This is how works based righteousness follows however. People make up commandments based on writings and these take the place of the actual teachings.
.
The only righteousness that will cut it is faith based righteousness, because without faith it is impossible to please him.

SBC said:

True a Pharisee's garb, "GAVE" an appearance of righteousness.
But then, God Himself designed the garb a Priest was to wear, way back when God appointed Aaron to be a Priest.

The Pharisee's corruption and hypocrisy, was preaching what men should do to be obedient, then excused themselves from the same standards.

God Bless,
SBC

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All works based righteousness ends up this way however. Without faith/trust it is not enough, God is not pleased.

mmbattlestar said:

I recently made a topic about how we are saved by faith and this was brought up in another thread and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss in a separate thread. 1 Cor 6:9-10 reads:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith? Or that there are conditions to our faith? We must not be sexually immoral, commit idolatry, adultry (Which is a difficult one Jesus said that to even look at a woman in lust is adultery), Homosexual, a thief, a drunk, or swindlers? Not to disagree with Paul but, I thought that the law was covered by love in the NC? Or is these verses teaching that a true faith would not exude these kinds of things? Just like a true faith would show works and a love for God and others? I also notice in the next verse it says

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Does that mean that people who were washed and baptized by the Holy Spirit that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 doesn't even apply to them?

Discuss.

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Passages like this rather reinforce the idea that we cannot be saved without trusting him.

Not any more than Galatians 5:19-21

SkyWriting said:

I do not believe the individual writers of letters to specific churches
intended for the letters to become included in scripture.

Click to expand...

Then you don't believe that all scripture is given by inspiration of God and profitable for instruction in righteousness as scripture say in Timothy. And of course you have scripture to back that up or just your opinion and how do you determine what is of God and what is not? 2 Pet 1:19-21 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

mmbattlestar said:

I recently made a topic about how we are saved by faith and this was brought up in another thread and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss in a separate thread. 1 Cor 6:9-10 reads:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Now does this teach that we are not saved by our faith? Or that there are conditions to our faith? We must not be sexually immoral, commit idolatry, adultry (Which is a difficult one Jesus said that to even look at a woman in lust is adultery), Homosexual, a thief, a drunk, or swindlers? Not to disagree with Paul but, I thought that the law was covered by love in the NC? Or is these verses teaching that a true faith would not exude these kinds of things? Just like a true faith would show works and a love for God and others? I also notice in the next verse it says

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Does that mean that people who were washed and baptized by the Holy Spirit that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 doesn't even apply to them?

Discuss.

Click to expand...

That is what they were before they repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. But that does not mean that everyone who professes to have repented has turned away from lives contrary to the faith. The faith is what scripture teaches about God's will and the way believer will live and act and grow into the walk of the faith. Having faith is believing what the Lord says about what He has done in sending Jesus into the world and those who believe in Him and want to live like Him and are trusting that God has saved them and they are then given the Holy Spirit to guide them in the way(faith). He put His love in us(Rom 5:5) and His power to live this new life(Acts 1:8). There is so much more to learn but just because one makes a profession does not mean they are saved, their lifestyles will reflect the truth of their professions. The just shall live by faith, faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen Heb 11:1. Being a new creation in Christ, old things pass away and all things become new(2Cor: 5:7) Notice, not the same lifestyle, but a growing awareness of God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure, that's a new life, new desires, not the old lifestyle of fulfilling the desires of the flesh that one use to live in, to much to say to include every aspect that is why the study of the word of God will reveal the faith and give you confidence and trust in your faith. If you love Me, keep my commandments, John 14:15 will become your reason for obedience, and He gives you this and every good thing to do His will, John 15:5 and Phil 2:13