Why does Islam have lunar calendar?

Robban · Oct 14, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
The frog dance was really something LOL

Haha yeah, I have attended the celebration, generally no harm in it but,

as the evening draws on it is not unusual with drunk people hanging on to you,

"Aw buddy buddy, you know you are my best friend" type of thing,

it is just that, you may not have seen the the person before, haha,

and the next day,

"Oh what the heck it was midsummer."

And the days roll by

cloudyday2 · Oct 14, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
I was somewhat treating lunisolar calendars as lunar calendars.

I think that is a common mistake - so common that is almost isn't a mistake LOL

But whatever label we use, I think the Islamic calendar is very uncommon by allowing its months to drift through the seasons. Why would they do that when almost no other culture did that?

Was it a way to say that the moon was more important than the sun (i.e. Allah the moon god)?
Was it a way to say that Allah and His time was more important than the natural world and its time?
Was it because Muhammad's tribe used this very uncommon calendar due to Allah's origin as a moon god? Does that give some clue about Muhammad's tribe? Maybe Muhammad was not from Saudi Arabia as most believe?

cloudyday2 · Oct 14, 2017

Hank77 said:
You're not a farmer are you?
The Farmer's Almanac is based off the phases of the moon. Many farmers and ranchers do things like planting, pruning, breeding and castrating animals, etc. by the phases of the moon.

Here at the Farmers’ Almanac, though, gardening by the Moon has always been our philosophy, and our editions include a calendar of the best days for sowing, planting, weeding, and other garden chores, as determined by the phase and position of the Moon. Our readers have long sworn by this method of managing their gardens and crops.
Why Do We Garden By The Moon? - Farmers' Almanac
Best Days to Castrate Farm Animals from the Farmers' Almanac

If you were using Islam's calendar, you would plant your crops at random seasons of the year. That is how Ramadan works. Sometimes the month of Ramadan is in the summer and sometimes it is in the winter, because there are no adjustments made to synchronize to the seasons. This is a very weird calendar. Most cultures that people call "lunar" are actually "lunisolar", because they make adjustments to synchronize to the seasons.

Hank77 · Oct 14, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
If you were using Islam's calendar, you would plant your crops at random seasons of the year. That is how Ramadan works. Sometimes the month of Ramadan is in the summer and sometimes it is in the winter, because there are no adjustments made to synchronize to the seasons. This is a very weird calendar. Most cultures that people call "lunar" are actually "lunisolar", because they make adjustments to synchronize to the seasons.

So yeah, I had to look all this up to see what you were addressing. Thanks to you, I learned something new today.

Robban · Oct 14, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
Here is something I read that started me thinking about this issue. It comes from a Catholic forum. The information is hard to verify - at least for me. Maybe others have better sources available to see if this is at all credible. (EDIT: Harran was a center for moon worship. I believe it was established under the Assyrians? One of the few strictly lunar calendars was the ancient Assyrian calendar. ... It's just something I wonder about.)
Was Ramadan a Pagan

This is what Abraham had to contend with,
Moon worshippers, sun worshippers, star worshippers, and those who worshipped sticks, stones, bugs and what have you,
anything that appeared to give a good harvest, that is our god.

He stood up and told them they were all wrong,
There is but One God the Master of the universe, the giver and sustainer of all things,

If Ishmael has any connection with Islam, then the answer maybe in Egypt,

Ishmael mother was Egyptian, his wife his mother found for him, also Egyptian,

Something from Midrash on Genesis 21:21;

"Throw a branch into the air,
and it will fall back on it,s root."

If it is the case, then they are still under their Faraoh in Egypt,

they have not left Egypt,

One Muslim poster on this forum some time ago said she loves being a slave,

Yeah, you bet,
not all slaves want to be free, because freedom and free choice brings with it responsibility.

cloudyday2 · Oct 14, 2017

Robban said:
If Ishmael has any connection with Islam, then the answer maybe in Egypt,

Ishmael mother was Egyptian, his wife his mother found for him, also Egyptian,

It's interesting that there was a Kingdom of Aksum that straddled the Red Sea with territory near Egypt and also in Yemen.
Kingdom of Aksum - Wikipedia

cloudyday2 · Oct 14, 2017

Here is an article with a possible explanation for the strictly lunar Islamic calendar. Apparently some scholars think that the pre-Islamic Arab calendar was a lunisolar calendar inspired by Jews. The timing of insertion of the intercalary months affected the pilgrimage to Mecca which affected the economy and politics. These intercalary months were controlled by an Arab tribe that was a rival to the Islamic tribes. Muhammad may have decided that the best way to weaken this rival tribe would be to revert to a strictly lunar calendar with no intercalary months. In other words, short-term politics may have been the only motivation. There was no theological or cultural reason.

Others concur that the pre-Islamic calendar was originally a lunar calendar, but suggest that about 200 years before the Hijra it was transformed into a lunisolar calendar, which had an intercalary month added from time to time to keep the pilgrimage within the season of the year when merchandise was most abundant
...
The Kinānah tribe, during the time of Muhammad, was in charge of authorizing the intercalation; that the Kinānah tribe had taken over this task from the Kindah tribe, which had been Judaized for hundreds of years previously, lends credence to the position that the process of intercalation may have been borrowed from the Jewish tradition.[16] Referring to Abū Rayḥān al-Bīrūnī (d. ca. 442 A.H./1050 C.E.), it has been posited that this intercalation was effected in order to accommodate the scheduling of seasonal trade cycles with annual pilgrimages,[17]

The prohibition of nasi' in AH 10 has been suggested as having had the purpose of wresting power from the Kinānah clan who was in control of intercalation, but there is no consensus regarding this position

Pre-Islamic Arabian calendar - Wikipedia

curiouskay · Oct 15, 2017

This is a little off topic but I was watching a National Geographic program about China and I noticed their numeric system was just like ours; i.e. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.,etc.; but as you know the language is well, their language. The point is, are they copying the English numeric system instead of having one of their own-?
Just asking

-

DaisyDay · Oct 15, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
What culture do you think had used this strictly lunar calendar? Lunisolar calendars were common, but strictly lunar calendars were rare. I was looking at this issue, because I thought it might give clues to the true origins of Islam. Apparently the ancient Assyrians used a strictly lunar calendar. Harran was a center for moon worship and there was also a tradition of venerating meteorites similar to Islam.

Well what religion was Abraham's father? Is that what determines the "true origins" of Judaism?

cloudyday2 · Oct 15, 2017

curiouskay said:
This is a little off topic but I was watching a National Geographic program about China and I noticed their numeric system was just like ours; i.e. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.,etc.; but as you know the language is well, their language. The point is, are they copying the English numeric system instead of having one of their own-?
Just asking -

It appears that the Chinese have three different ways of writing numerals. One of those is the Arabic numerals. The indigenous equivalent of the Arabic numerals is the Suzhou numerals. People often give the Arabs credit for the 10 digit number system, but it seems that the Suzhou numerals came 1000 years earlier. China should probably get the credit instead.
Here are some Wikipedia articles
Chinese numerals - Wikipedia
Suzhou numerals - Wikipedia

cloudyday2 · Oct 15, 2017

DaisyDay said:
Well what religion was Abraham's father? Is that what determines the "true origins" of Judaism?

The true origins of Judaism are mostly Canaanite IMO. Yahweh was as son of El in the Canaanite pantheon. I went for a walk this morning and noticed the crescent moon looked like horns on a bull. The Mesopotamian equivalent of El was Sin. Sin was symbolized by a bull and also by the crescent moon. Sin's wife was symbolized by the constellation Taurus, and one of their children was symbolized by the sun. Yahweh was a sun god during the kingdom of Judah. Enoch lived 365 years which connects him with the son god and Yahweh. There was a Jewish belief in two powers in heaven - an old god and a young god - as in the Son of Man vision in Daniel and Enoch. In a way, Jesus as the Son of Man is Yahweh, and the Father is El.

That's my wild theory anyway.

Here is one of the earliest mentions of Yahweh. Notice how Yahweh is a calf, and there appears to be the constellation Taurus and Gemini. Remember the story in Exodus about the golden calf at Mt. Sinai. I think there are clues there, but of course it is murky.
Kuntillet Ajrud - Wikipedia

Robban · Oct 15, 2017

DaisyDay said:
Well what religion was Abraham's father? Is that what determines the "true origins" of Judaism?

Hardly, his father worshipped idols,
his father sold idols in his shop.

The story goes that young Abram smashed all the idols in his fathers shop except for one,
when his father found out he was not happy with Abram,

"Why have smashed all the idols in my shop?"

"It was not me, it was that big one still standing at the back."

"That,s impossible an idol can do nothing."

"Then why do you worship and sell them?"

Abraham is the father of Judaism.

curiouskay · Oct 15, 2017

In the Old Testament as documented in the KJV of the bible, God only talked directly to one group of people & that group were the Israelites. The following are His instructions to them.

(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:18 KJV) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

The Lord was speaking to a select group of people & it was their duty to follow His instructions and should they follow his instructions peace would envelope the world.

Now I ask, are they following His instructions?

In your view, is it (yes) or (no)?

-

cloudyday2 · Oct 15, 2017

curiouskay said:
In the Old Testament as documented in the KJV of the bible, God only talked directly to one group of people & that group were the Israelites. The following are His instructions to them
...
The Lord was speaking to a select group of people & it was their duty to follow His instructions and should they follow his instructions peace would envelope the world.

Now I ask, are they following His instructions?

In your view, is it (yes) or (no)?

Maybe @Robban can answer your question, but I was wondering if you could explain where the OT mentions peace enveloping the world (Isaiah?)

Robban · Oct 15, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
Maybe @Robban can answer your question, but I was wondering if you could explain where the OT mentions peace enveloping the world (Isaiah?)

I cannot answer it,
Torah/instructions cover more than the "stranger".
Every individuals basic needs are food, clothing, shelter,

giving charity is a "get out of jail" card,

providing for the needs of others including the stranger.

(when and where possible)

Seems like pinning the blame on Jews, (nothing new under the sun)

Quid est Veritas? · Oct 16, 2017

The connection between Islam and Lunar gods is oversold. This is mostly derived from the lunar calender and the Crescent and Star symbol. The latter is merely derived from the Ottoman Empire's use of the symbol, which they derived from the use thereof by the city of Constantinople - where it has been in use as a symbol of Pontus since at least the third century BC, when the city was still Byzantium.

The problem with calenders is that they are highly artificial. We are just juggling around natural cycles. The more natural cycles you attempt to correlate, the more intercalation is required and calendrical drift you experience.
Most try to correlate the axial revolution of the earth and its trip around the sun, but even this needs leap days roughly every four years or so. If you add the moon, it becomes more difficult, but was commonly done in ancient times.
Julius Caesar dropped the moon to facilitate a consistent calender for Rome, and Mohammed dropped the Sun. It really is just a choice thing, although the Islamic calender still correlates to the solar year after a few cycles, while the Gregorian repeats the cycle each year with intercalation or the Hebrew every 2-3 years - the Islamic is just a longer count therefore.
The Mayan Long Count takes this to the extreme, taking ridiculously long to get back to the starting point again.

Allah is clearly conceived as the God of Abraham, and we know Jews and Christians were operative in pre-Islamic Arabia. The Koran also has Arabian prophets that suggest some form of native monotheism was conceived of having preceeding Islam - most notably suggested by Mohammed's own father's name of Abdullah. Nothing here suggests Lunar affiliation.

If any Pagan association is looked for, the Kaabah's name, worship of a the black stone, and association with goddesses like Al-lat (of Satanic Verses fame), suggests an affiliation with Cybele or similar chthonic/fertility gods. In this way, Hubal with his arrows is perhaps a cognate of Atis or Tammuz.

Quid est Veritas? · Oct 16, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
It's interesting that there was a Kingdom of Aksum that straddled the Red Sea with territory near Egypt and also in Yemen.
Kingdom of Aksum - Wikipedia

Some actually suggest that Mecca was an Aksumite or Yemeni foundation, based on the presence of a town called Macoraba in Ptolemy's second century map and ascribed to Arabia Felix. This is supported by Diodorus Siculus' mention of a revered sanctuary in the area.

cloudyday2 · Oct 16, 2017

Quid est Veritas? said:
The connection between Islam and Lunar gods is oversold. This is mostly derived from the lunar calender and the Crescent and Star symbol. The latter is merely derived from the Ottoman Empire's use of the symbol, which they derived from the use thereof by the city of Constantinople - where it has been in use as a symbol of Pontus since at least the third century BC, when the city was still Byzantium.

I think I solved the mystery of why Islam uses a strictly lunar calendar with no intercalary months. The Arabs had been using a lunisolar calendar for a couple of centuries before Islam, but the insertion of intercalary months was determined by members of a particular Arab tribe - and that tribe was a rival of the early Muslims. Apparently Muhammad prohibited the use of intercalary months and switched back to a strictly lunar calendar so that this rival tribe would lose influence. It seems that this short-term political maneuver was never undone, so the Muslims were stuck with a bizarre calendar.

The prohibition of nasi' in AH 10 has been suggested as having had the purpose of wresting power from the Kinānah clan who was in control of intercalation, but there is no consensus regarding this position

Pre-Islamic Arabian calendar - Wikipedia

cloudyday2 · Oct 16, 2017

Here are the Quran verses where Muhammad prohibits intercalary months. Apparently Muhammad received this verses in AH 10, and then Muhammad died in AH 11. Maybe Muhammad intended to receive new verses to return to a lunisolar calendar later, but he didn't live long enough.

Another possibility is that Muhammad wanted to disconnect the Muslim festivals from their pagan origins as seasonal festivals by making them move through the seasons. A harvest festival is no longer a harvest festival if it happens at random seasons.

However, I think the political motive is more likely. It was probably politically easier to make the case that Arabs should return to their earlier tradition of a strictly lunar calendar than it would have been to convince the Arabs that intercalation should be controlled by the Muslims instead of the traditional Arab clan. That's my best guess.

Indeed, the number of months with Allah is twelve [lunar] months in the register of Allah [from] the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous [who fear Him].
Indeed, the postponing [of restriction within sacred months] is an increase in disbelief by which those who have disbelieved are led [further] astray. They make it lawful one year and unlawful another year to correspond to the number made unlawful by Allah and [thus] make lawful what Allah has made unlawful. Made pleasing to them is the evil of their deeds; and Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.

Surah At-Tawbah [9:36-37]

Robban · Oct 16, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
I think I solved the mystery of why Islam uses a strictly lunar calendar with no intercalary months. The Arabs had been using a lunisolar calendar for a couple of centuries before Islam, but the insertion of intercalary months was determined by members of a particular Arab tribe - and that tribe was a rival of the early Muslims. Apparently Muhammad prohibited the use of intercalary months and switched back to a strictly lunar calendar so that this rival tribe would lose influence. It seems that this short-term political maneuver was never undone, so the Muslims were stuck with a bizarre calendar.

Pre-Islamic Arabian calendar - Wikipedia

Wonder if it has any affect on their law, I suppose it must have.

Jewish law, Halakah is very particular.

What is an hour in Jewish law?
It is the period between sunrise and sunset divided by tweive,
so it will vary depending were one is at the time.

May sound splitting hairs but even so it is a help in understanding.

.We have now gone into the new year, 5778

It can make a difference when looking at prophesies, or so called prophesies,

I think many make a mistake when trying to work them out using the common calender.

Prophesy in Israel was mostly to guide the people back on the right path,

Why does Islam have lunar calendar?

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