Is it ever ethical for a youth leader to hang out outside of church with a student?

RDKirk

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Well now let's just stop for a minute & think about which 2 have got more in common & are more likely to be peers, pals. Have a natural, wholesome friendship with each other, that's good & proper, ought to be encouraged. 2 teens close in age, both having positions of responsibility in their church, 1 falling just into that "adult" category & one just under it. Or a 15/ 16 year old in a position of responsibility & and an elementary school age kid. Your britches in a bunch over this is purely due to legalism, based on how in America today adult & minor are defined legally. It has got not a single darned thing to do with Biblical ethics or wisdom, or common sense.

Those particular commands of the king are for good, and we are commanded by scripture to obey the commands of the king for good. There is no essential necessity for the two to become pals that calls for ignoring scripture.
 
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Those particular commands of the king are for good, and we are commanded by scripture to obey the commands of the king for good. There is no essential necessity for the two to become pals that calls for ignoring scripture.

Well there's no essential necessity for any 2 teens to become pals if that's not what they want, but if that is what they want, they most certainly aren't ignoring any scripture. They're honoring scripture, in fact.

Talked about this to my own youth minister this morning at church. He just could not believe the extent of legalism some folks here are into. Shook his head at it mighty hard, but that's the internet for you. Thank the good Lord almighty we've got some sense & a love for scripture in our church. All the leaders in our youth ministry, past & present, they've always been encouraged to have good friendships with everybody else in it. Whole point of having teens in youth leadership is on account of how it's natural, wholesome, good for them to be friends with others in it. On account of how you can have an 18 year old who is in the 11th grade & a 16 year old who is already a sophomore at the community college, the ministry includes all teens in HS & above. Since none of us are doing anything that has anything to do with the law, there's no point in causing divisions by who is under or over the legal line. On account of that, we've got a thriving ministry.
 
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RDKirk

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Well there's no essential necessity for any 2 teens to become pals if that's not what they want, but if that is what they want, they most certainly aren't ignoring any scripture. They're honoring scripture, in fact.

Talked about this to my own youth minister this morning at church. He just could not believe the extent of legalism some folks here are into. Shook his head at it mighty hard, but that's the internet for you. Thank the good Lord almighty we've got some sense & a love for scripture in our church. All the leaders in our youth ministry, past & present, they've always been encouraged to have good friendships with everybody else in it. Whole point of having teens in youth leadership is on account of how it's natural, wholesome, good for them to be friends with others in it. On account of how you can have an 18 year old who is in the 11th grade & a 16 year old who is already a sophomore at the community college, the ministry includes all teens in HS & above. Since none of us are doing anything that has anything to do with the law, there's no point in causing divisions by who is under or over the legal line. On account of that, we've got a thriving ministry.

It's not "legalism" religiously speaking, it's "obeying the King's law."

Now, as usual in these kinds of threads, the OP provides only partial information up front, then starts qualifying the information depending on the responses. Very typical.

But with regard to the what appeared to be the initial question:
Is it ever ethical for a youth leader to hang out outside of church with a student?

The King's law in most states has a definite stance that will in most cases be negative.

Don't like the King's stance? Take it to City Hall. But a church in that town would be foolish to ignore it.
 
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It's not "legalism" religiously speaking, it's "obeying the King's law."

The King's law in most states has a definite stance that will in most cases be negative.

Don't like the King's stance? Take it to City Hall. But a church in that town would be foolish to ignore it.

What you're writing sure is legalism. But you go right on & suit yourself. I'm surely glad that my own youth pastor (plural now, sought feedback from another one tonight) could not disagree with you more. Your attitude, it's just sad. I hope the OP has gotten some good, reasonable, Bible-based advice from a minister as wise & trustworthy as them in person. No reason at all, none, that she shouldn't befriend the girl who is wanting her friendship.
 
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JCFantasy23

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On account of how you can have an 18 year old who is in the 11th grade & a 16 year old who is already a sophomore at the community college, the ministry includes all teens in HS & above.

That's a good point, too - the 18 year old can act as an older, positive mentor. We have the 'Big Brother' program where adult men help lonely young children have a father figure or friend to take them out and spend time with them. That's even more of an age difference and they're paid to do it, but similar purpose. In this case the OP is talking about a friendship and bond that naturally progressed, which is supposed to be even healthier/better.
 
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That's a good point, too - the 18 year old can act as an older, positive mentor. We have the 'Big Brother' program where adult men help lonely young children have a father figure or friend to take them out and spend time with them. That's even more of an age difference and they're paid to do it, but similar purpose. In this case the OP is talking about a friendship and bond that naturally progressed, which is supposed to be even healthier/better.

Definitely agree with that last sentence. With that small of an age difference I'm not sure she'll be too much of a mentor, but a pal who is a good influence, I can see that for sure. With our Big Brother & Sisters the "kids" go thru age 18 for the 1 on 1 mentoring. You can start volunteering with the after school programs at 16 tho. With ours the teens are paired with folks over 25 for the mentoring.
 
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RDKirk

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What you're writing sure is legalism. But you go right on & suit yourself. I'm surely glad that my own youth pastor (plural now, sought feedback from another one tonight) could not disagree with you more. Your attitude, it's just sad. I hope the OP has gotten some good, reasonable, Bible-based advice from a minister as wise & trustworthy as them in person. No reason at all, none, that she shouldn't befriend the girl who is wanting her friendship.

You're talking about "friendship." The OP was talking about taking trips away with each other.
 
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You're talking about "friendship." The OP was talking about taking trips away with each other.

Lol, the 2 girls were talking about going fishing together. I'd hardly call that a big trip to get britches in a bunch over. I'm talking about friendship on account of that being what the OP is talking about.
 
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I tend to agree with those who are saying you should not be alone with any youth when you are a leader in this situation. I would ask the church leaders as they are over you. God bless.
 
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Unless it's a group outing, I'd say it's a little inappropriate. That's not to say they can't be religious mentors outside of church, but it's like a schoolteacher; you wouldn't be hanging out with your teacher outside of school, but you can ask for help outside of class via email/whatever online platform you use.
 
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I am in Youth Ministry and I am 23 year old. Youth Ministry is about friendship and support. Its about engaging with the youth and its culture. With that being said, I don't think you should be bashed for asking a question with a good heart but I honestly was very confused when I first read the title. Your both girls, about the same age (basically) and you hanging with her, in my heart-felt opinion, is the key to Youth Ministry. I am realistic enough though to know and understand that for myself I will avoid hanging out with a student of the opposite sex alone. sexual tension, lack of accountability, and also being 23 with a sex drive, anything can happen so I see the wisdom in your question. I guess speak with some of your co leads, pray on it, and keep a good motive.
 
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I'm 18 years old, female, I've been a youth leader for a couple of months. I'm sorry if this is something I should already know by now, I just wanted to be clear on this issue so I don't make a mistake. One of the students in my youth group-almost 16 years old-keeps talking about how her love language is quality time and how she wants me and her to go fishing, etc. She doesn't drive yet so I'd have to be in a car with her alone, which is another thing that might not be appropriate either. She hangs out with the new youth pastor-22 years old-a lot, they're practically best friends. The student is a junior worship leader and an honorary member of the church staff, so I guess she doesn't consider herself a student? I've spent time with youth leaders outside of church when I was in youth, but I was a senior at the time, and plus there was more of an objective most of the time opposed to just leisure. I don't want to hurt her feelings but I also don't want to cross any boundaries, as well as make exceptions for certain kids. Is hanging out outside of church and driving in the same car ever okay, and if so under which circumstances?
This is my take as a prevention advocate, a victim of child sexual abuse, and someone familiar with ministry, as I used to work with children, though not as a pastor. I know others have said this, so I am going to give you more the why behind why the recommendation is: do not spend alone time with a child.

81% of child sexual abuse happens in a residence, and 77% of abuse happens in a one-on-one situation. Those two statistics are why youth programs frequently have a standard of never being alone with a child. Ever. It eliminates not only the opportunity for someone with ill intent - and yes some of them are female - as well as the possibility that someone can raise an accusation. In other words, you should never be alone with a child, even if your church does not have this rule, even if you see no risk, even if you know everyone well, put simply, do not take the risk.

Furthermore, the boundary is often there in youth-serving organizations as a whole to also weed out people who will not play by the rules, and may pose a risk to the organization. In other words, if they have the standard, and people are not following it, there will be extra scrutiny directed at them. You do not want that.

There should be plenty of opportunities with ministry for you to hang out with her with other people present.

I understand it is an honest question, and a very good one. I will make a follow-up thread for discussion about this.
 
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Well there's no essential necessity for any 2 teens to become pals if that's not what they want, but if that is what they want, they most certainly aren't ignoring any scripture. They're honoring scripture, in fact.

Talked about this to my own youth minister this morning at church. He just could not believe the extent of legalism some folks here are into. Shook his head at it mighty hard, but that's the internet for you. Thank the good Lord almighty we've got some sense & a love for scripture in our church. All the leaders in our youth ministry, past & present, they've always been encouraged to have good friendships with everybody else in it. Whole point of having teens in youth leadership is on account of how it's natural, wholesome, good for them to be friends with others in it. On account of how you can have an 18 year old who is in the 11th grade & a 16 year old who is already a sophomore at the community college, the ministry includes all teens in HS & above. Since none of us are doing anything that has anything to do with the law, there's no point in causing divisions by who is under or over the legal line. On account of that, we've got a thriving ministry.
As my thread in this forum and my above reply point out, there are many reasons why adults, even older youth, should not be spending one-on-one time with a younger child. One reason is, it minimizes the opportunity for anyone to be taken advantage of. Another is, it helps identify people unwilling to play by the rules. Another, it provides accountability and ensures that the program remains free of accusations or realities of misconduct.

No one is talking about denying friendship, only the context in which it should happen when one person is older than the other, and in a position of authority. That context should be in a group setting, or in a public enough place (like a mall) where there are many people around that it is not one-on-one.

With respect, sense is making sure no incidents involving children or accusations of such happen, and the surest way to do that is to have boundaries around programs that work with children. I fail to see why that is a bad thing, or why it is "legalism."
 
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As my thread in this forum and my above reply point out, there are many reasons why adults, even older youth, should not be spending one-on-one time with a younger child. One reason is, it minimizes the opportunity for anyone to be taken advantage of. Another is, it helps identify people unwilling to play by the rules. Another, it provides accountability and ensures that the program remains free of accusations or realities of misconduct.

No one is talking about denying friendship, only the context in which it should happen when one person is older than the other, and in a position of authority. That context should be in a group setting, or in a public enough place (like a mall) where there are many people around that it is not one-on-one.

With respect, sense is making sure no incidents involving children or accusations of such happen, and the surest way to do that is to have boundaries around programs that work with children. I fail to see why that is a bad thing, or why it is "legalism."

Well first of all, the OP hasn't been back to this thread in a good long while, so this seems completely pointless. With respect, just about the only thing that separates a 16 & an 18 year old, is the legal definition of adult. So yes, all the fuss around here, it's pure legalism. Nothing more than that.

Now if you wanted to have boundaries between teens & actual children, like little kids, not just teens who legally aren't adults, that's totally fine. But boundaries between 2 teen girls being pals? Gracious. Get a grip.

FWIW - I'm 18, had been a youth leader at my church till a week ago, when I had to bow out due to not having the time with a job I just started, on top of being a full time student in engineering. Was also ROTC leader in HS, with kids who were older & younger. I go to a 4 year college, but I'd say about 80% of the YM at our church go to the community college. Some start college at age 18 or 19, lots start at 16 or even 15 to do dual enrollment. Kids who play sports, do ROTC, what have you, stay in HS all 4 years. Most of the rest go ahead & start CC on account of the big cost savings you get. It's pretty common for there to be a 16 year old who is 2 grades ahead of the 18 year old. Also real common for somebody who is older to look & act younger, some of the guys are still growing at 18, 19, 20. The girls are finished with all that by then. At our church, all the teens are part of youth. We've got JR youth for the MS group, and SR youth that goes to 20. Everybody's friends with each other. We just don't go around carding each other when we make our pals. We don't stop & say hey, you under or over 18 when we give rides, get lunch, go fishing, what have you. We just don't do legalism like that. Now, guys & gals are urged to use a lot of discernment about being 1 on 1 together, but the OP is a gal talking about friendship with another gal. We have no problem at all with that sort of thing, encourage it in fact. I did talk this over 1 day with our pastor out of interest. He just could not believe the fuss folks made on here, but it's the internet. I hope the girl who made this OP just talked it out with her pastor, realized there was no sensible reason for a fuss & is now friends with that girl who wants to be friends with her.
 
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What most people will think is 2 young girls, close in age who have gotten to know each other on friendly terms going on a fishing trip. It seems difficult to twist it into something inappropriate unless one really is a stickler for what qualifies as appropriate. For any woman in a teaching position it is always tricky when engaging with the youth and young adults, their hormones can make many harmless situations suspect without meaning to.

There have been instances when that has happened with me, its been a bit embarrassing to have people assume things about me I don't think I portray.
 
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