Why no Job in Darbys rapture?

my_name_is_sarah said:

Are most the writers in this thread Seventh day adventist?

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Absolutely not.

Neither are we promoters of the Two Peoples of God doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War, which was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 completely destroys the doctrine you are promoting.

Your "rightly dividing" doctrine is less than 200 years old.

The New Covenant: Bob George


The Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are not the same word.

You are repeating what you have heard others say.
Get out your Bible to study and find the truth.

I was once a deacon in a conservation Bible church where I was told the same things you are now saying. The problem it that I could not get the doctrine to agree with my Bible.

I was told that the Book of Matthew was not written for the Church, but then I found Christ revealing His Church in Matthew chapter 16 and then I found the Great Commission to the Church at the end of Matthew's Gospel.

Why would I believe a doctrine that does not agree with scripture?

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Actually, I am not aware of even one person who posts regularly in this group who has said he is SDA, although there may be some.

But Dispensationalism goes all the way back to the oldest Christian writers on end time prophecy that we know about, and the man who keeps pretending that it is only 200 years old has personally seen the hard proof that this is true.

Biblewriter said:

But Dispensationalism goes all the way back to the oldest Christian writers on end time prophecy that we know about, and the man who keeps pretending that it is only 200 years old has personally seen the hard proof that this is true.

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Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


There were many in the past who believed that God would one day bring the Jews back to the Middle East and bring them into the Church of Christ.
However, they did not promote the chief error of modern Dispensational Theology by claiming that modern Jews would one day come to salvation outside of the Church.

Left Behind or Led Astray?
Good Fight Ministries
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

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BABerean2 said:

There were many in the past who believed that God would one day bring the Jews back to the Middle East and bring them into the Church of Christ.
However, they did not promote the chief error of modern Dispensational Theology by claiming that modern Jews would one day come to salvation outside of the Church.

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This statement is designed to confuse the issue.

Dispensationalists clearly insist that no one will EVER be saved outside of faith in the saving power of the blood of Christ.

All Christians believe the the Lord will take His own to be with Himself.

Dispensationalists define the believers who come to faith in Christ before that event as "the church," and define those who attain that faith at a later date as a different group.

To pretend that this is some kind of a denial of basic Christian doctrine is a blatant attempt to deceive.

Honest debate about the issue would be to attempt to show from scripture that the Dispensationalists are in error about their definitions, not to pretend that this definition is some kind of a departure from fundamental Christian doctrine.

Biblewriter said:

Dispensationalists define the believers who come to faith in Christ before that event as "the church," and define those who attain that faith at a later date as a different group.

To pretend that this is some kind of a denial of basic Christian doctrine is a blatant attempt to deceive.

Honest debate about the issue would be to attempt to show from scripture that the Dispensationalists are in error about their definitions, not to pretend that this definition is some kind of a departure from fundamental Christian doctrine.

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Throughout the history of our faith the word "Church" was defined as the group of people who placed their faith in the finished work of Christ at Calvary.

Modern Dispensational Theology has attempted to redefine this term by claiming that the "Church Age" will come to an end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.
Early proponents of the system also claimed that God would deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system during this 7 year period.

The only way one can make the doctrine work is to ignore the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

We are still waiting to see what you have written in your books about the New Covenant revealed by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28.

The biggest problem I see is confusing what Israel is and what the Church is. Israel, and those covenants given to Israel, was as a nation, not individuals. The Mosaic Covenant is a national covenant. It was conditional on Israel's part. The Abrahamic Covenant was unconditional.... the descendants of Abraham couldn't abrogate that covenant if they wanted to. Even the Noahic Covenant it still in effect, thankfully. And much as I hate it to be, the Adamic Covenant is still in effect.

The Church is none of the above. It is indeed another covenant, but that doesn't mean it supersedes or replaces any covenant given to national Israel or Abraham. The New Covenant outlined in Jeremiah 31:31 will be a new national covenant with Israel. The Lord explains that in the next verse, that it will not be like the covenant made with their fathers, the Mosaic Covenant, which also is a national covenant.

Even the restoration of Israel in 1948 was part of what was outlined in the Mosaic Covenant. So it still has to be in effect.

A covenant does not mean that everyone under that covenant was justified or saved. These covenants are not the same kind of a deal as the Church, in which all are members of the Body of Messiah by being justified by Him. No one is born under the covenant with Messiah as was the case with the other covenants mentioned. One becomes part of the covenant with Messiah by their freewill choice.

Copperhead said:

The biggest problem I see is confusing what Israel is and what the Church is. Israel, and those covenants given to Israel, was as a nation, not individuals

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Yes, but that nation rejected and crucified Jesus, now the Kingdom is given to a nation that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
We Christians are that nation, made up of people from every race, nation and language:
Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ, indeed, we have been given the heritage, as was decreed in God’s purpose. For it was His will that we who set our hopes in Jesus, should be the ones to make His glory known and praised.
We Christians have the Seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the pledge of the inheritance that will be ours when God has redeemed His own.

Romans 8:16-18 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God…..it is the Spirit of adoption, so we can call Him ‘Father’. This affirms that we are God’s children and if children, then heirs, heirs of God’s promises through Christ.
But we must share His suffering, if we are also to share His glory.

Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises of God through Jesus.
Galatians 3:29 So if you belong to Christ, then you are the issue of Abraham and heirs of God’s promises. [to the Patriarchs]
Colossians 1:12 We give thanks to the Father who has made us fit to share in the heritage of God’s people in the Kingdom of light.

It is quite evident that the vast multitude seen in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9, is far more that the remnant of the Jewish people. Romans 9:27
Many prophesies make it plain that in the end times there will be a people in God’s holy Land, who will be His people, those who seek the Lord and who know what is right. Isaiah 51:1 Every faithful Christian person.

It is nonsense to say that God will redeem all of ethnic Israel. Even in ancient times He destroyed those that opposed Him. Korah for example and all who died in the desert, etc.
Now, today most of ethnic Israel, specifically the Jewish people, are in apostasy, are atheists or false religion worshippers and LGBT people. Will God redeem them? Not likely! Proved by Romans 9:27 Of Israel, only a remnant will be saved.

Copperhead said:

The Abrahamic Covenant was unconditional.... the descendants of Abraham couldn't abrogate that covenant if they wanted to. Even the Noahic Covenant it still in effect, thankfully. And much as I hate it to be, the Adamic Covenant is still in effect.

The Church is none of the above. It is indeed another covenant, but that doesn't mean it supersedes or replaces any covenant given to national Israel or Abraham.

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The claim that the Church is not part of the Abrahamic Covenant falls apart in the passage below.

Gal 3:16　 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.　
(Paul says the promise made to Abraham was made to only one seed, Christ.)

Gal 3:17　 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.　
(The Sinai law was added 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham.)

Gal 3:18　 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.　

Gal 3:19　 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.　
(The Sinai Covenant was added because of sin until Christ could come.)

Gal 3:20　 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.　
Gal 3:21　 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.　
Gal 3:22　 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.　
Gal 3:23　 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.　
Gal 3:24　 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.　
Gal 3:25　 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.　
Gal 3:26　 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
　
Gal 3:27　 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
　
Gal 3:28　 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.　

Gal 3:29　 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.　
(We inherit the promise made to Abraham through Christ.)

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Copperhead said:

The biggest problem I see is confusing what Israel is and what the Church is. Israel, and those covenants given to Israel, was as a nation, not individuals. The Mosaic Covenant is a national covenant. It was conditional on Israel's part. The Abrahamic Covenant was unconditional.... the descendants of Abraham couldn't abrogate that covenant if they wanted to. Even the Noahic Covenant it still in effect, thankfully. And much as I hate it to be, the Adamic Covenant is still in effect.

The Church is none of the above. It is indeed another covenant, but that doesn't mean it supersedes or replaces any covenant given to national Israel or Abraham. The New Covenant outlined in Jeremiah 31:31 will be a new national covenant with Israel. The Lord explains that in the next verse, that it will not be like the covenant made with their fathers, the Mosaic Covenant, which also is a national covenant.

Even the restoration of Israel in 1948 was part of what was outlined in the Mosaic Covenant. So it still has to be in effect.

A covenant does not mean that everyone under that covenant was justified or saved. These covenants are not the same kind of a deal as the Church, in which all are members of the Body of Messiah by being justified by Him. No one is born under the covenant with Messiah as was the case with the other covenants mentioned. One becomes part of the covenant with Messiah by their freewill choice.

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2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

There are no exceptions to all. Christ Himself is the complete and total fulfillment of all of God's promises and covenants.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

There are no exceptions to all. The Son is the sole and exclusive Beneficiary of all things, under the New and Last Will and Testament, written in His Own Blood.

keras said:

Yes, but that nation rejected and crucified Jesus, now the Kingdom is given to a nation that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
We Christians are that nation, made up of people from every race, nation and language:
Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ, indeed, we have been given the heritage, as was decreed in God’s purpose. For it was His will that we who set our hopes in Jesus, should be the ones to make His glory known and praised.
We Christians have the Seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the pledge of the inheritance that will be ours when God has redeemed His own.

Romans 8:16-18 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God…..it is the Spirit of adoption, so we can call Him ‘Father’. This affirms that we are God’s children and if children, then heirs, heirs of God’s promises through Christ.
But we must share His suffering, if we are also to share His glory.

Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises of God through Jesus.
Galatians 3:29 So if you belong to Christ, then you are the issue of Abraham and heirs of God’s promises. [to the Patriarchs]
Colossians 1:12 We give thanks to the Father who has made us fit to share in the heritage of God’s people in the Kingdom of light.

It is quite evident that the vast multitude seen in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9, is far more that the remnant of the Jewish people. Romans 9:27
Many prophesies make it plain that in the end times there will be a people in God’s holy Land, who will be His people, those who seek the Lord and who know what is right. Isaiah 51:1 Every faithful Christian person.

It is nonsense to say that God will redeem all of ethnic Israel. Even in ancient times He destroyed those that opposed Him. Korah for example and all who died in the desert, etc.
Now, today most of ethnic Israel, specifically the Jewish people, are in apostasy, are atheists or false religion worshippers and LGBT people. Will God redeem them? Not likely! Proved by Romans 9:27 Of Israel, only a remnant will be saved.

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The nation did reject Yeshua. But Jews didn't. And Hosea 5:15 makes a point of saying that national Israel must call out for Messiah's return before He will. Even Yeshua said as much in Matt 23:39. So the nation of Israel is still in effect. If not, then Yeshua cannot return.

Sure, Israel today is in unbelief. Ezekiel 36 & 37 make reference to that. That still does not negate where Isaiah clearly states that Israel is YHVH's elect. Election is not about salvation, it is about position. In that same passage, Cyrus is called YHVH's Anointed. Yep, an unbelieving gentile is the Lord's Anointed.

While gentiles are joint heirs, that does not mean they take over and assume a role other than that laid out for Israel. The key words are "joint heirs", not sole heirs. And the prophets are quite clear that Israel will be a nation of priests serving before the Lord when He reigns from Jerusalem. Just like believers as stated by Peter, national Israel is called a Holy Nation in Exodus. They are two different, yet Holy nations. One comprised only of Hebrews (though unbelieving), the other comprised of both believing Hebrews and Gentiles which are now unified under Messiah, and no earthly distinction any longer.

I never said one bit about redeeming all of ethnic Israel. Obviously, not all Jews will be saved. But as a nation corporately, it will be saved, as stated by Isaiah, Jeremiah, et al. And that is the problem. Israel and the covenants made with them was in view of a corporate entity, a nation. Not implying anything remotely to individual salvation. Whereas, the ekklesia is made up of only believers who have been justified. While they are grafted into the Abrahamic Covenant on the basis of faith like Abraham, they are not part of the Mosaic Covenant which was a national covenant with Israel.

You have your covenants mixed up. Even the Adamic Covenant and the Nohaic Covenant are still in effect. The Mosaic Covenant with national Israel is still in effect until the Messianic Kingdom, at which time the New Covenant with national Israel is put in place as stated by Jeremiah 31.

Copperhead said:

While gentiles are joint heirs, that does not mean they take over and assume a role other than that laid out for Israel. The key words are "joint heirs", not sole heirs.

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Right, many thousands of Jews will be among the millions of born again Christian citizens in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the holy Land. But Ezekiel 16:62-63 says that in their shame and humiliation, the people of Judah will not open their mouth again.....
The leader of the 12 tribes was always Ephraim. [Joseph; the holder of the birthright. 1 Chronicles 5:1] Look at Jeremiah 30:18-22 & Hosea 1:10-11

BABerean2 said:

Throughout the history of our faith the word "Church" was defined as the group of people who placed their faith in the finished work of Christ at Calvary.

Modern Dispensational Theology has attempted to redefine this term by claiming that the "Church Age" will come to an end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.
Early proponents of the system also claimed that God would deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system during this 7 year period.

The only way one can make the doctrine work is to ignore the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

We are still waiting to see what you have written in your books about the New Covenant revealed by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28.

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It has been conclusively proved that the doctrine that the church will be taken to heaven a number of years before Christ returns to judge the wicked, has been repeatedly taught throughout the history of the church. And you have seen the hard proof of this.

Biblewriter said:

It has been conclusively proved that the doctrine that the church will be taken to heaven a number of years before Christ returns to judge the wicked, has been repeatedly taught throughout the history of the church. And you have seen the hard proof of this.

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It is the same type of selective quoting "hard proof" produced by Grant Jeffrey, which is found in the link below.

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

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BABerean2 said:

However, they did not promote the chief error of modern Dispensational Theology by claiming that modern Jews would one day come to salvation outside of the Church.

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Wow. Must be some folks in that camp I never heard of. But I suppose it could be true, especially with the provision of "modern" dispensational theory.

Where a lot of things went wrong is the term dispensation and what many had in mind regarding it. To many initially, it simply meant progressive revelation. Adam to Abraham was one leg of it. The with Abraham, more revelation of God. Then with Moses and the Torah, more revelation of God. Then with Yeshua, more revelation of God, and the Millennial kingdom will bring about another.

One thing that I learned from some Messianic believers, is that with this progressive revelation comes more accountability. Even the parables that Yeshua taught, He spoke them so that seeing they would not see, and hearing they would not hear, and in manner of speaking, they were not as accountable if they had understood the full meaning of some of the parables. In essence, He was being gracious to them by not revealing too much so that they would not be more accountable than they already were.

Dispensation has such an emotionally charged meaning nowadays, many immediately throw up some sort of fence against it. Yet in it's basic sense that I mentioned above, it is accurate. A casual look at scripture and there is progressive revelation in discrete steps, or dispensations. What some have chosen to do with the term and apply it, well, that can be a problem.

keras said:

Right, many thousands of Jews will be among the millions of born again Christian citizens in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the holy Land. But Ezekiel 16:62-63 says that in their shame and humiliation, the people of Judah will not open their mouth again.....
The leader of the 12 tribes was always Ephraim. [Joseph; the holder of the birthright. 1 Chronicles 5:1] Look at Jeremiah 30:18-22 & Hosea 1:10-11

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That is a lot of implication gleaned from a fair amount of supposition regarding the Isaiah text. There is nothing there to definitively suggest that born again Christian citizens are part of the same package deal.

1 Corinthians 6 goes to great lengths saying the believers will judge the world and the angels, and Revelation 2:26-27 states that those of the ekklesia who overcome will rule with a Rod of Iron along with Messiah, but Exodus 19:6 says that Israel is a kingdom of priests and a holy nation and that will be fully realized in the Messianic Kingdom. Different roles. Israel will be brought to its fulness during the Messianic kingdom, but they will be still be mortal, having lived thru and protected during the Great Tribulation. Those who have come to faith in Messiah during this present age (both Jew and Gentile) will have no earthly distinction and will have their new bodies as does Messiah (we will be like Him 1 John 3:2) and will rule and reign with Him.

Didn't you forget Manasseh? Joseph had two sons. Either way, in that same passage in 1 Chronicles 5, Judah prevailed, that is, God selected Judah over Ephraim and Manasseh to be from where the rightful leaders of Israel would come. From David Right on thru the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Yeshua. So the rightful leader of the 12 (or rather 13) tribes of Israel was never Ephraim or Manasseh. YHVH did not select the birthright holder as the recognized tribe from which the leaders of Israel would come.

Yes, I did say 13 tribes. Ephraim and Manasseh were adopted by Jacob, thus that made 13 tribal names. The tribal names spell out sentences when they are listed in various orders. Just like the names in the lineage from Adam to Noah, when put together in a sentence, spells out the entire gospel message. And while 12 are always mentioned, there is 13 names from which to choose. This is why there is 12 tribes listed in Revelation, but Dan is not mentioned. Sometimes Joseph is mentioned, but when one of the other tribes is left out of the list, then instead of Joseph being mentioned, Ephraim and Manasseh are mentioned, making 12. When none of the other original tribes are left off the list, then Joseph is mentioned instead of Ephraim and Manasseh, again, making 12 names listed.

Factually the younger brother was outside the camp. Or was it the older brother ... Mannessa and Ephraim?

Copperhead said:

That is a lot of implication gleaned from a fair amount of supposition regarding the Isaiah text. There is nothing there to definitively suggest that born again Christian citizens are part of the same package deal.

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Nice turn of phrase, there! I must copy it to apply to rapture believers.

The Old Testament does in fact, give us the clue that everyone who has faith on God and keeps His Laws, will participate in the Promises of God to His people. Be they Jew or Gentile. Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Psalms 107:1-3 and plenty other prophesies.
But the New Testament is undeniable:
Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ we have been given our share in the heritage, as was decreed in His design …for it was God’s will that we, who were the first to set our hope on Jesus and to praise His glory.
And, in Christ, you Christians also, once you believed and received the Holy Spirit, the promise of the inheritance that will be ours, when God has redeemed all of His own, to His glory and praise.

Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, the Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises made through Jesus.
Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit of God affirms that we are His children and if children, then also the heirs of God and fellow heirs with Jesus, but we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.
Romans 8:19 The Created universe is waiting with eager expectation for God’s sons to be revealed.
Our greatest heritage as born again Christians is the promise of eternal life. John 3:16,Titus 3:5-7, + But we also inherit the Land promises, Psalms 37:29, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Ezekiel 34:11-31 It is we Christians, from every tribe, race, nation and language, that are the vast multitude seen waving palm branches in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9

Note: in Romans 8:19, that God’s children are not yet made known, Jesus will come with His winnowing fork and sift the wheat from the chaff. Matthew 3:12 Those Christians who stood strong in their faith when He comes in fire, Luke 12:49, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, are the wheat that will be gathered into the granary of the holy Land. The chaff of the ungodly peoples will be as ashes under our feet. Isaiah 66:17, Malachi 4:3, 2 Peter 3:7

Copperhead said:

Didn't you forget Manasseh? Joseph had two sons. Either way, in that same passage in 1 Chronicles 5, Judah prevailed, that is, God selected Judah over Ephraim and Manasseh to be from where the rightful leaders of Israel would come

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Jewish tradition has it that Messiah ben Joseph must come before the Messiah ben Judah.
Note in Ezekiel 37:16 that Joseph/Ephraim is the leader of the ten tribes, still scattered around the world.
The final rightful King has come from Judah, He is in heaven now and will Return after all that is prophesied to happen before that, has taken place. That will be the time of leadership from an Ephraimite person. Zechariah 10:6-12, Amos 5:15, Psalms 80:1-3

Copperhead said:

Wow. Must be some folks in that camp I never heard of. But I suppose it could be true, especially with the provision of "modern" dispensational theory.

Where a lot of things went wrong is the term dispensation and what many had in mind regarding it. To many initially, it simply meant progressive revelation. Adam to Abraham was one leg of it. The with Abraham, more revelation of God. Then with Moses and the Torah, more revelation of God. Then with Yeshua, more revelation of God, and the Millennial kingdom will bring about another.

One thing that I learned from some Messianic believers, is that with this progressive revelation comes more accountability. Even the parables that Yeshua taught, He spoke them so that seeing they would not see, and hearing they would not hear, and in manner of speaking, they were not as accountable if they had understood the full meaning of some of the parables. In essence, He was being gracious to them by not revealing too much so that they would not be more accountable than they already were.

Dispensation has such an emotionally charged meaning nowadays, many immediately throw up some sort of fence against it. Yet in it's basic sense that I mentioned above, it is accurate. A casual look at scripture and there is progressive revelation in discrete steps, or dispensations. What some have chosen to do with the term and apply it, well, that can be a problem.

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Do not come to any conclusions about what Dispensationalists teach on the basis of false claims made bu their enemies.

Biblewriter said:

Do not come to any conclusions about what Dispensationalists teach on the basis of false claims made bu their enemies.

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Get a copy of the book "Things to Come" by Dr. Dwight Pentecost, who was a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, and read what he says about a future time when modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church.

Listen to Pastor Steve Gregg on YouTube, who was once a member of Calvary Chapel and taught the doctrine for several years, before coming to the conclusion that it was not scriptural.

Do some research on what Pastor John Hagee wrote in the Houston Chronicle about modern Jews not needing Christ, because he says they are still under the Old Covenant.

Discuss the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, with Dispensationalists and look at what they have written in their books about the New Covenant...

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