Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Der Alte · Oct 12, 2017

William Tanksley Jr said:
I provided a direct backlink to your original Talmudim post in my reply; anyone interested can check that I've done more than is reasonably required to prove my good intentions. Meanwhile, anyone can see you're providing only obfuscation and denial -- it is simply not enough for you to CLAIM misquotation with no attempt to clarify. It becomes more and more apparent that you simply have no answer EXCEPT to obfuscate the truth.
I correctly explained to you that your Talmudic quotation promises eternal torment in the form of "withering" only to specific sins (including being a Christian), and directs those unrepentant who did not commit those specific sins to destruction when gehenna is destroyed; meanwhile, it promises salvation from out of gehenna to everyone who's done specific good things (and not those eternal-torment sins). NONE of this is compatible with the Bible.
That was my honest summary of this quote, WITH BACKLINK:
Notice your demand that I prove to you that Jesus contradicted "Jewish teachings"? That's what I'm talking about.
Your argument is _cooked_. I have shown you how your original Talmudic source is completely incompatible with Jesus' view, your own view, or any Christian view. I've shown you Jesus directly stating that His teaching authority overrides and contradicts the so-called teachers of Israel. I've done more than that, but that's enough for this thread to end.
Here's the oldest form of your argument, again with a backlink so you can't simply deny you said it AGAIN:
Notice how this older argument completely inaccurately claims the Jews were CORRECT in their belief about hell. And you actually used this nonsense as a positive argument FOR your position! This is the argument I am refuting here. It is false in every detail: premises and logic are dead wrong.

As for the dating of the Talmud.

In past installments we discussed the fact that at Mount Sinai the Jewish people received the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. The Oral Torah was the oral explanation of how the written laws should be executed and followed.
The Oral Torah passed from generation to generation and was never written down(2). Why? Because the Oral Torah was meant to be fluid. The principles stayed the same, but the application of those principles was meant to be adapted to all types of new circumstances.
This worked exceptionally well as long as the central authority ― the Sanhedrin ― remained intact, and the chain of transmission was not interrupted. … But in the days since the destruction of the Temple, the Sanhedrin had been repeatedly uprooted and teachers had to go into hiding.
Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi realized that things would not get better any time soon. He saw that the Temple would not be rebuilt in his generation and possibly in many generations to come. He saw the Jews fleeing the land as a result of the constant persecutions and impossible living conditions. He saw that the central authority was weaker than ever and might cease altogether To make sure that the chain of transmission would never be broken, he decided that the time had come to write down the Oral Torah.(3)

1) See Talmud ― Avodah Zara 10a-b; Breishit Rabbah 67:6; 75:5
2) See Midrash Tanchuma ― Ki Tisa 34; Talmud ― Gittin 60a;
3) For a detailed explanation of actions of Rebbi Yehuda HaNasi see Maimonides, Introduction to Mishneh Torah. See also Iggerot of Rabbi Sheriram Gaon 1:1.

History Crash Course #39: The Talmud
Everyone has failed to notice I also quoted Encyclopedia Judaica.

William Tanksley Jr · Oct 12, 2017

You've not responded to any material claim; you're only arguing the date problem.

Der Alter said:
As for the dating of the Talmud.

You've failed once again to claim a date, instead citing a document which lists a religious claim the Jews made about their oral tradition. Note that if that Jewish claim is reliable as proof for your argument, it means that the Talmud's claims were believed and taught by Moses, including the one about Christians going to gehenna and suffering forever. If they're not reliable for that one, then they're also dubious for the rest, and we can accept the archaeological date as more reliable evidence.

The archaeological date for the document you keep quoting, the Babylonian Talmud, is AD 600; earlier manuscripts of the Talmud do not contain the Gehenna claims, and not all of the late copies contain those claims. The Jerusalem Talmud does not contain the claims about Gehenna either, and it was developed up to about AD 400. So we have good reason to believe that the Jews in Jesus' area were not making the claims you posted from the Talmud.

And once again, this is not a substantial argument for your case; the actual facts being claimed in this document, even if it were taught by Moses, do not support your claims about eternal torment, but rather demonstrate that the Jews who wrote that held a wide set of views including annihilation, eternal torment, and universalism.

Der Alter said:
Everyone has failed to notice I also quoted Encyclopedia Judaica.

Nobody, except you perhaps, has failed to notice that the Encyclopedia Judaica is a summary overview and doesn't give any dates putting those beliefs near or before Christ.

Der Alte · Oct 12, 2017

William Tanksley Jr said:
You've not responded to any material claim; you're only arguing the date problem.
You've failed once again to claim a date, instead citing a document which lists a religious claim the Jews made about their oral tradition. Note that if that Jewish claim is reliable as proof for your argument, it means that the Talmud's claims were believed and taught by Moses, including the one about Christians going to gehenna and suffering forever. If they're not reliable for that one, then they're also dubious for the rest, and we can accept the archaeological date as more reliable evidence.
The archaeological date for the document you keep quoting, the Babylonian Talmud, is AD 600; earlier manuscripts of the Talmud do not contain the Gehenna claims, and not all of the late copies contain those claims. The Jerusalem Talmud does not contain the claims about Gehenna either, and it was developed up to about AD 400. So we have good reason to believe that the Jews in Jesus' area were not making the claims you posted from the Talmud.
And once again, this is not a substantial argument for your case; the actual facts being claimed in this document, even if it were taught by Moses, do not support your claims about eternal torment, but

No, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Empty claims and assertions. The absence of information in either Talmud does not prove/disprove anything in the other.

rather demonstrate that the Jews who wrote that held a wide set of views including annihilation, eternal torment, and universalism.

Irrelevant none of this disproves the evidence I have quoted.

Nobody, except you perhaps, has failed to notice that the Encyclopedia Judaica is a summary overview and doesn't give any dates putting those beliefs near or before Christ.

Thank you for this unsupported, irrelevant opinion. The Encyclopedia Judaica does not support your claims. Since the belief was substantial enough to merit an article in the EJ that is good enough for me empty objections not withstanding. What someone personally believes about the Talmud or any other source I cite is irrelevant.

ClementofA · Oct 12, 2017

Der Alter said:
Thank you for this unsupported, irrelevant opinion. The Encyclopedia Judaica does not support your claims. Since the belief was substantial enough to merit an article in the EJ that is good enough for me empty objections not withstanding. What someone personally believes about the Talmud or any other source I cite is irrelevant.

Sorry, Der Alter, you lost yet another debate. You've provided no proof of what the Pharisees believed during Jesus' ministry (circa 30 AD).

William Tanksley Jr · Oct 12, 2017

Der Alter said:
No, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Empty claims and assertions.

I've provided dates. You've provided a text and proven yourself completely unable to MENTION its date, beyond quoting a secondhand report of a Rabbinic Jewish myth about that text coming through oral transmission from Moses.

The absence of information in either Talmud does not prove/disprove anything in the other.

That's not any part of the point, and you know it. The fact that the text you're quoting does not appear in any Talmudic text before AD 600 means that you cannot quote that text to demonstrate what Jesus' contemporaries believed.

Irrelevant none of this disproves the evidence I have quoted.

I'm not trying to "disprove the evidence." I've smashed your argument into so many pieces you've had to change it from "the Jewish view was correct," to incoherent babblings about Jewish myths of textual transmission. You've literally replied to _none_ of the challenges I've provided, and this message is no exception -- you're blustering and namecalling, and you don't even dare admit that I'm right about the dates although you know it's true.

Thank you for this unsupported, irrelevant opinion.

What I said was "the Encyclopedia Judaica is a summary overview and doesn't give any dates putting those beliefs near or before Christ." This is not an opinion, but a claim of fact. If I'm wrong, show me one single date given in the EJ which places any beliefs near or before Christ.

Nor is this fact irrelevant; your entire argument hinges on your idea that if all the Jews believed in eternal torment, I would have to prove that Jesus contradicted their beliefs in order to disprove eternal torment. Thus the fact that your purported evidence doesn't show anything about Jews at the time of Jesus is fatal to the claim that the EJ is supporting evidence for your argument.

The Encyclopedia Judaica does not support your claims.

The point I'm making is that it doesn't support your claims. I'm not making a claim that needs its support.

Since the belief was substantial enough to merit an article in the EJ that is good enough for me empty objections not withstanding.

That's funny, because you're hiding behind the phrase "the belief" when the EJ does not document a single belief, but rather a TON of different and explicitly disagreeing beliefs.

What someone personally believes about the Talmud or any other source I cite is irrelevant.

True. You quoted the Rabbinic Jewish religious opinion that the Talmud derived from Moses' unwritten teaching. That's an opinion about the Talmud, and yes, it's IRRELEVANT.

Der Alte · Oct 13, 2017

ClementofA said:
Sorry, Der Alter, you lost yet another debate. You've provided no proof of what the Pharisees believed during Jesus' ministry (circa 30 AD).

Thank you for this irrelevant, unsupported opinion. I have not seen anyone here provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence which supports the plethora of dates being bandied about for the Talmud. In the absence of such evidence the most credible evidence presented thus far are my quotes from AISH.

he-man · Oct 13, 2017

SBC said:
Well mostly I am not arguing. I state what I believe, and at times disagree with view of others.
Not my job to convince an other to change their beliefs, yet I can disagree with them, based on my own agreement with Scripture.

Eternal Conscious Torment; For fallen angels, yes. For unfaithful man, eternal, no. A long time, yes.
Annihilationism; For body and souls of the unfaithful, destruction of their body and soul, void of life.
.........................The life of their body is blood - and dead.
.........................The life of their soul returns to God.
.........................Their body AND soul destroyed.
.........................They were never given a born again spirit, thus there is no eternal spirit to remain.
Universalism; ALL of mankind will be saved? No. ALL will believe, but not ALL will be saved.
.....................Our choice to believe, is during our lifetime ON EARTH.
.....................All souls in hell, will SEE Jesus at Judgement, and Believe.
.....................However their belief, is too late for forgiveness,
.....................Nothing teaches of forgiveness given body's or souls in hell.
.....................Nothing teaches of saving without forgiveness.
.....................thus two Scripture are fulfilled;
Luke 13
[23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Isa 45 [23] I have sworn by myself....That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Some other view (please explain as clearly possible) ... Already did. God Bless, SBC

The Bible says any fool would know that the wicked are destroyed forever. Psalms 92:6-7 and is verified by 2 Thessalonians 1:9

Der Alte · Oct 13, 2017

William Tanksley Jr said:
I've provided dates. You've provided a text and proven yourself completely unable to MENTION its date, beyond quoting a secondhand report of a Rabbinic Jewish myth about that text coming through oral transmission from Moses.

I have not seen any credible, verifiable, historical evidence which supports your claims.

That's not any part of the point, and you know it. The fact that the text you're quoting does not appear in any Talmudic text before AD 600 means that you cannot quote that text to demonstrate what Jesus' contemporaries believed.

Zero evidence.

I'm not trying to "disprove the evidence." I've smashed your argument into so many pieces you've had to change it from "the Jewish view was correct," to incoherent babblings about Jewish myths of textual transmission. You've literally replied to _none_ of the challenges I've provided, and this message is no exception -- you're blustering and namecalling, and you don't even dare admit that I'm right about the dates although you know it's true.

You have smashed nothing. You have proved nothing. What dates? No, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence.

What I said was "the Encyclopedia Judaica is a summary overview and doesn't give any dates putting those beliefs near or before Christ." This is not an opinion, but a claim of fact. If I'm wrong, show me one single date given in the EJ which places any beliefs near or before Christ.

Irrelevant.

Nor is this fact irrelevant; your entire argument hinges on your idea that if all the Jews believed in eternal torment, I would have to prove that Jesus contradicted their beliefs in order to disprove eternal torment. Thus the fact that your purported evidence doesn't show anything about Jews at the time of Jesus is fatal to the claim that the EJ is supporting evidence for your argument.

Misrepresent what I have said. I have never said that "all Jews" believed anything. Nothing you have provided or could provide is fatal to anything.

The point I'm making is that it doesn't support your claims. I'm not making a claim that needs its support.

You have made no point about anything I have posted except some version of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!"

That's funny, because you're hiding behind the phrase "the belief" when the EJ does not document a single belief, but rather a TON of different and explicitly disagreeing beliefs.

Misrepresents what I said and your claims about tons of different beliefs are over blown and irrelevant. Nothing you have said or could say disproves anything I have said.

True. You quoted the Rabbinic Jewish religious opinion that the Talmud derived from Moses' unwritten teaching. That's an opinion about the Talmud, and yes, it's IRRELEVANT.

Your opinion of the Talmud etc. is irrelevant. This is really hilarious you are arguing about what the Jews did/did not believe and you reject what Jews believe about their own history. I guess you think the Jewish leadership about 300 AD or so just sat down and made up the entire Talmud out of nothing. Although they quote historical rabbis. Let me know if you ever find any credible, verifiable, historical evidence relevant to this discussion.

SBC · Oct 13, 2017

he-man said:
The Bible says anyfool would know that the wicked are estroyed forever. Psalms 92:6-7 and is verified by 2 Thessalonians 1:9

Well actually, what makes one a fool, is precisely the lack of Gods knowledge, truth and understanding.

Some will argue, the unfaithful will forever be in torment. And oddly, many who argue that, are the very same who claim to not believe in God, but yet are somehow believing in Gods punishments? weird!

Torment and agony in hell, is effected upon living souls, experiencing total consciousnesses while being totally separated from God and His wonderment's of beauty the earth's surface had once made available to the them to enjoy.

Destruction of an unfaithful mans soul and his body, commences after judgement, which after judgement, their souls and body, shall be departed of all life, which shall return to God, and their souls and body's destroyed. Completely? No. Their souls and body's shall become ASH, little tiny particles, that no man shall notice, or remember. And as such they, shall forever be separated from the Lord.

Gods mercy for them? He never gave them a born again spirit. How is that mercy on them? Spirits never die, thus they would have forever remained conscious AND forever separated from God.

Such as it the fate of fallen angels, who shall forever be separated from God, burning in fire that does not extinguish, nor can they die. Greater were they created, and greater is their eternal punishment.

So, yes, wicked men, shall be destroyed forever. Yes, they are unwise, and are the foolish, because they rejected the Truth.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC · Oct 13, 2017

William Tanksley Jr said:
You've failed once again to claim a date, instead citing a document which lists a religious claim the Jews made about their oral tradition.

Time, Years, Months, Dates; are irrelevant to specifics of Gods Works.

Time, Years, Months, Dates; are for mans usefulness.

We all have an appointment on a specific time, with God.

Gods dictation of appointments for man, was in Seasons. And by the rising and setting of the Sun.
The first calendars of man keeping tract of time, was by Seasons, by the Sun rise and Sun set; not as man has readjusted the years, months, days, hours, minutes, to make sense of time.

Thus man wanting a SET date for anything in ancient history is frugal, and guesswork at best.

About ORAL tradition. Of course what was taught from one to another began Orally. We do the same today, as was done historically. Speech, teaching knowledge, exampling by showing, identifying things seen, drawing pictures, advancing to writing, and reading. Nothing new.

Ex 17
[14] And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua:

God Bless,
SBC

he-man · Oct 13, 2017

SBC said:
Well actually, what makes one a fool, is precisely the lack of Gods knowledge, truth and understanding.Some will argue, the unfaithful will forever be in torment. And oddly, many who argue that, are the very same who claim to not believe in God, but yet are somehow believing in Gods punishments? weird! Torment and agony in hell, is effected upon living souls, experiencing total consciousnesses while being totally separated from God and His wonderment's of beauty the earth's surface had once made available to the them to enjoy. Destruction of an unfaithful mans soul and his body, commences after judgement, which after judgement, their souls and body, shall be departed of all life, which shall return to God, and their souls and body's destroyed. Completely? No. Their souls and body's shall become ASH, little tiny particles, that no man shall notice, or remember. And as such they, shall forever be separated from the Lord. Gods mercy for them? He never gave them a born again spirit. How is that mercy on them? Spirits never die, thus they would have forever remained conscious AND forever separated from God.
Such as it the fate of fallen angels, who shall forever be separated from God, burning in fire that does not extinguish, nor can they die. Greater were they created, and greater is their eternal punishment. So, yes, wicked men, shall be destroyed forever. Yes, they are unwise, and are the foolish, because they rejected the Truth. God Bless, SBC

? Angels cannot die Luke 20:36 Neither can they die anymore: for they are equal unto the angels... 1 Corinthians 15:42; 1 John 3:2; Romans 8:23; Wicked fools are destroyed forever. Blown like smoke and ashes in the wind. 2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 92:6-7 A brutish man knoweth not; neither does a fool understand this. ...they shall be destroyed forever.

SBC · Oct 13, 2017

he-man said:
? Angels cannot die

Correct.

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die anymore: for they are equa unto the angels...

"THEY", are those, whose spirit is born again, of Gods Seed. Correct they are never again subject to death.

Wicked fools are destroyed forever. Blown like smoke and ashes in the wind. Psalms 92:6-7 A brutish man knoweth not; neither does a fool understand this. ...they shall be destroyed forever.

Why are you trying to reinforce, what has already been agreed upon?

God Bless,
SBC

Hieronymus · Oct 13, 2017

SBC said:
Well actually, what makes one a fool, is precisely the lack of Gods knowledge, truth and understanding.

Some will argue, the unfaithful will forever be in torment. And oddly, many who argue that, are the very same who claim to not believe in God, but yet are somehow believing in Gods punishments? weird!

Not that weird when you understand it's a good reason to reject God if He would commit ECT.

Hieronymus · Oct 13, 2017

SBC said:
Correct.

No, the gods that rebelled became mortal like men.
I think it's Psalms 82.

he-man · Oct 13, 2017

SBC said:
Correct. "THEY", are those, whose spirit is born again, of Gods Seed. Correct they are never again subject to death. Why are you trying to reinforce, what has already been agreed upon? God Bless, SBC

You get in a big hurry to answer and do not see all of what I posted: 1 Corinthians 15:42; 1 Corinthians 15:44; 1 John 3:2; 2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 97:3; Psalms 37:20 consumed like smoke

SBC · Oct 13, 2017

Hieronymus said:
Not that weird when you understand it's a good reason to reject God if He would commit ECT.

God does not "commit" ECT.
He provides for it. He allows it. He warned of it. And angels can ignore the warnings and participate it it.

So, your premise is, you understand it's a good reason to reject God, for the choices angels make. weird.

Mankind has no provision for ECT.
God provides temporary Conscious separation from Him. Via the death of the body. Via the living soul of the unfaithful in hell.
He provides for it. He allows it. He warned of it. And mankind can ignore the warnings and participate in it.

That is their choice, God doesn't stop them from doing what they choose. God gives them what they chose!

God Bless,
SBC

SBC · Oct 13, 2017

Hieronymus said:
No, the gods that rebelled became mortal like men.
I think it's Psalms 82.

Mortal men, have declared themselves gods.
Mortal men, have declared some of Gods works to be gods.
Mortal men, have made up things and called them gods.

It is not God "making" other gods.
It is God declaring His authority over whatever thing, men have called their god.

God Bless,
SBC

Hieronymus · Oct 13, 2017

SBC said:
Mortal men, have declared themselves gods.
Mortal men, have declared some of Gods works to be gods.
Mortal men, have made up things and called them gods.

It is not God "making" other gods.
It is God declaring His authority over whatever thing, men have called their god.

God Bless,
SBC

God created gods, we usually call them angels. (but angel actually means messenger).
The nations were divided among the gods (not among 'the sons of Israel') and God chose His people: Israel.

Hieronymus · Oct 13, 2017

SBC said:
God does not "commit" ECT.

Then who does if it were true?

SBC · Oct 13, 2017

he-man said:
You get in a big hurry to answer and do not see all of what I posted: 1 Corinthians 15:42; 1 Corinthians 15:44; 1 John 3:2; 2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 97:3; Psalms 37:20 consumed like smoke

I didn't see, what you did not post. The actual verses.
You gave a paraphrase of the verses.

So what is your complaint?
I didn't go look up the verses you didn't post?
or you think I am in contention with your paraphrasing? If so, how so?

? Angels cannot die Luke 20:36 Neither can they die anymore: for they are equal unto the angels... 1 Corinthians 15:42; 1 John 3:2; Romans 8:23; Wicked fools are destroyed forever. Blown like smoke and ashes in the wind. 2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 92:6-7 A brutish man knoweth not; neither does a fool understand this. ...they shall be destroyed forever.

God Bless,
SBC

Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

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