Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?

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Revealing Times said in post #91:

He was God living in Human flesh, but not the Fullness of God living in Human flesh . . .

Note that the fullness of God does dwell in Jesus Christ's flesh:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

John 3:34 . . . for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Revealing Times said in post #91:

He was God and Flesh, so he can't be fully Human . . .

Note that He can be both fully God and fully human at the same time. For:

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Revealing Times said in post #91:

. . . the Glory lies with the Father.

And the Son:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

--

Also, it should be pointed out that anyone (not you) who says there was a time when God the Word was not, is preaching Arianism, an ancient heresy which is not allowed on this Trinitarian forum. For God the Word (John 1:1) is uncreated, the Creator of everything that exists (John 1:3). And He has become and remains fully-human flesh in Jesus Christ (John 1:14, Luke 24:39).
 
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Baby Cottontail

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As you have been shown, the Scriptures clearly reveal YHWH is the exclusive name for Almighty God and Y'Shua, is the name of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, as recorded in my post #69, together with Jn.3:16; Mt.1:20 and Lk,1:35.
Okay, since we seem to be hung up on the name Yahweh, let's approach this a different way.

Do you believe that Jesus and the Father are the same God? Please answer with a yes or a no. This will help to move along the conversation.

Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning,

before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]

rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and
receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3
Okay -- God has wisdom, God possesses wisdom, etc.

However, Proverbs here is not talking about Jesus' creation. If you think it does, then that goes against John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16, which both say that through Jesus all things were made. That leaves nothing out. If Jesus is a created being, then how could He created Himself?

From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was given birth/possessed and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. [Please note: See below as to when Jesus did become the Son of God and literally God the Son] The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, who is the Father and the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ.
Then you are arguing against the Nicene Creed and a lot of other writings which affirm that the pre-incarnate Word is eternal.

OK. I'm not sure what you are trying to show with Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6. Are you trying to show that both the pre-incarnate Word and the Father are God? If so, then I agree with you.

If you are trying to show that only the Father is God, then I disagree with you.

In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being givrn birth, in their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both, means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, confirming Col.1:15, the FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION. [Jesus received His deity from His Father as recorded in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.
We disagree on what "firstborn over all Creation" means. You think it means first created. I do not.

To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth, as the first of YHWH's works, before the world began
I agree that firstborn means exactly the same in both places. It means that Jesus has supremacy/first place over everything. He has supremacy/first place over everything that is created, and He has supremacy/first place over the resurrection. It doesn't mean He was first created in either verse.

Fully endorsed by the following esteemed men of God from every walk of Christian teaching:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Quasar92
If all of these biblical scholars believe that the Word was the first thing that the Father created, then I would disagree with all of them. Although I respect biblical scholars, that doesn't mean that we should take everything they say or endorse as if it is true. There are many biblical scholars that I would disagree with.

I am not a biblical scholar, but I do know that there are teachings that some biblical scholars have that I would completely disagree with.

Since I do not know any of those scholars or their writings, I will have to take your word for it that they do believe that the pre-incarnate Word is a created being. As such, I would disagree with them all.
 
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Quasar92

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Okay, since we seem to be hung up on the name Yahweh, let's approach this a different way.

Do you believe that Jesus and the Father are the same God? Please answer with a yes or a no. This will help to move along the conversation.


Okay -- God has wisdom, God possesses wisdom, etc.

However, Proverbs here is not talking about Jesus' creation. If you think it does, then that goes against John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16, which both say that through Jesus all things were made. That leaves nothing out. If Jesus is a created being, then how could He created Himself?


Then you are arguing against the Nicene Creed and a lot of other writings which affirm that the pre-incarnate Word is eternal.

OK. I'm not sure what you are trying to show with Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6. Are you trying to show that both the pre-incarnate Word and the Father are God? If so, then I agree with you.

If you are trying to show that only the Father is God, then I disagree with you.


We disagree on what "firstborn over all Creation" means. You think it means first created. I do not.


I agree that firstborn means exactly the same in both places. It means that Jesus has supremacy/first place over everything. He has supremacy/first place over everything that is created, and He has supremacy/first place over the resurrection. It doesn't mean He was first created in either verse.


If all of these biblical scholars believe that the Word was the first thing that the Father created, then I would disagree with all of them. Although I respect biblical scholars, that doesn't mean that we should take everything they say or endorse as if it is true. There are many biblical scholars that I would disagree with.

I am not a biblical scholar, but I do know that there are teachings that some biblical scholars have that I would completely disagree with.

Since I do not know any of those scholars or their writings, I will have to take your word for it that they do believe that the pre-incarnate Word is a created being. As such, I would disagree with them all.


No father and son, as Yahweh, the Father, and Y'Shua/Jesus, the Son of God, are one and the same person. Bit rather, they are two very separate entities. The Bible makes that fact crystal clear in the following: Jn.1:1-2; 14:28;17:3 and 5, in addition to a host of additional verses, already previously posted

With reference to Pe.8L22-38, the pre-incarnate Jesus did not obtain His deity until in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35. Or it would contradict a host of Scripture in Isa. alone that clearly states the Yahweh is the ONLY God. There is no conflict between that and Jn.1:1. The latter does not stipulate the time Jesus became the Son of God, but rather when He existed, with God in the beginning, as the firstborn over all creation, according to Col.1:15

With reference the the term, 'firstborn;' Do you have children? IUf you do, the first one born, is your firstborn. Look in any dictionary if you have problems accepting that fact.

There were/are, many who disagree with Jesus, also.


Quasar92.
 
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Baby Cottontail

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No father and son, as Yahweh, the Father, and Y'Shua/Jesus, the Son of God, are one and the same person. Bit rather, they are two very separate entities. The Bible makes that fact crystal clear in the following: Jn.1:1-2; 14:28;17:3 and 5, in addition to a host of additional verses, already previously posted


Quasar92.
I'm sorry. I'm confused by your response.

It sounds like you are saying that you think the Father and Son are the same person.

But then you are saying they are two very separate entities.

I'm not asking you if you think they are the same person. I'm asking you if you think they are the same God.
 
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Quasar92

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I'm sorry. I'm confused by your response.

It sounds like you are saying that you think the Father and Son are the same person.

But then you are saying they are two very separate entities.

I'm not asking you if you think they are the same person. I'm asking you if you think they are the same God.


Yes. I probably d8d confuse you, because I composed my post in bursts, which I would not have done, had I known you were online t this time.

Absolutely not, the Father and the Son are two very separate entities, as my post #103 states. No, they are not the same God either. They are one in spirit, as we are with them, according to Jn.17. See also Jn.14:10.


Quasar92
 
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Baby Cottontail

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Yes. I probably d8d confuse you, because I composed my post in bursts, which I would not have done, had I known you were online t this time.

Absolutely not, the Father and the Son are two very separate entities, as my post #103 states. Mo, they are not the same God either. They are one in spirit, as we are with them, according to Jn.17. See also Jn.14:10.


Quasar92
Okay, if the Father and Son are not the same God, then you are saying that there are two Gods.
 
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Baby Cottontail

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No. What you have seen me write is what the Bible is telling you.


Quasar92
Okay -- so if you do not believe that the Father and Son are the same God, yet you do not believe there are two Gods....

Do you believe that Jesus is not God at all then?

You believe He is only a created being....
 
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Baby Cottontail

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No. What you have seen me write is what the Bible is telling you.


Quasar92
Let me say it like this -- we only have so many ways that we can interpret the Bible.

1.) the Father and Son are the same God
or
2.) the Father and Son are not the Same God, with the inevitable conclusion that there are at least two Gods (since they are not the same God)
or
3.) Only the Father is God, and Jesus is a created being


There is a fourth option, but both of us agree that it isn't true. (That the Father and Son are the same God and they are the same Person. That would make Jesus the Father, and the Father Jesus).

Obviously only one of these options takes all of Scripture into consideration, so only one of the options is correct.
 
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The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

Recommended Resources: Logos Bible Software and Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll.

Source: gotquestions.org


Quasar92
yep JESUS is God JESUS is supreme "Neither is there salvation in any other for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved".
 
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Quasar92

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yep JESUS is God JESUS is supreme "Neither is there salvation in any other for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved".


You don't read. I wrote that nowhere in the Bible did Jesus ckaim He was God. I DID MPT say Jesus was not God! The Scriptures are clear that Jesus is God, which I am a firm believer of, as recorded in: Ps.45:6-7; Ps.110:1; Isa.7:14 and Heb.1:9, to name a few.


Quasar92
 
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jaybird88 said in post #112:

1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Note this isn't contradicting other Bible verses which show the Lord Jesus Christ is also the one God (e.g. Titus 2:13, John 1:1,14, John 10:13). All we have to do is take out the comma between "God" and "the Father", like how there's no comma between "Lord" and "Jesus Christ". For there were no commas in the original Greek text.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Just as it would be wrong to say God the Father isn't our Lord (Revelation 21:22, Luke 1:32, Jude 1:4), so it's wrong to say Jesus Christ isn't our God (John 20:28).
 
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jaybird88

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1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Note this isn't contradicting other Bible verses which show the Lord Jesus Christ is also the one God (e.g. Titus 2:13, John 1:1,14, John 10:13). All we have to do is take out the comma between "God" and "the Father", like how there's no comma between "Lord" and "Jesus Christ". For there were no commas in the original Greek text.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Just as it would be wrong to say God the Father isn't our Lord (Revelation 21:22, Luke 1:32, Jude 1:4), so it's wrong to say Jesus Christ isn't our God (John 20:28).
looking at the passage like this makes no sense to me, now you have all things from the Most High going through the Most High. two Most Highs? not sure about that one.

where does Jesus say He is our G-D?
 
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You don't read. I wrote that nowhere in the Bible did Jesus ckaim He was God. I DID MPT say Jesus was not God! The Scriptures are clear that Jesus is God, which I am a firm believer of, as recorded in: Ps.45:6-7; Ps.110:1; Isa.7:14 and Heb.1:9, to name a few.


Quasar92

No dude i'm agreeing with you LOL. I'm reaffirming your OP
 
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Actually, it can easily be argued that Jesus did claim to be God, although he did not say literally, "I am God."

IMHO, people who phrase the question like this--"Jesus never said he was God" or "Did Jesus ever say he was God?" are slanting the question in order to win the argument since any evidence that is presented short of those exact words will be considered by them not to count.
 
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jaybird88 said in post #115:

. . . now you have all things from the Most High going through the Most High. two Most Highs?

That's right, in that God the Father is the Most High as is God the Son (Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 45:23, Philippians 2:10).

As an analogy, imagine 2 mountains which are the same elevation, and are the most high in the universe.

jaybird88 said in post #115:

where does Jesus say He is our G-D?

That's what John 10:30 means.
 
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jaybird88

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That's right, in that God the Father is the Most High as is God the Son (Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 45:23, Philippians 2:10).

As an analogy, imagine 2 mountains which are the same elevation, and are the most high in the universe.

pretty sure Jesus taught the Most High is one. also note in that same teaching "HE" is one not "THEY" are one.

That's what John 10:30 means.
than we would have to apply that same interpretation to John 17 21. all believers are Jesus? sorry but not sure on that one.
 
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jaybird88 said in post #119:

Jesus taught the Most High is one.

The Most High is one YHWH God:

Deuteronomy 6:4 ¶Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God is one YHWH . . .
5 And thou shalt love YHWH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

But the one YHWH God includes both God the Father and God the Son (Hebrews 1:8). For Jesus Christ said:

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

jaybird88 said in post #119:

than we would have to apply that same interpretation to John 17 21. all believers are Jesus?

John 17:21-23, doesn't mean the Church will become YHWH. For John 17:21-23 refers to Christians becoming one with each other, as in one body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4, Colossians 1:18).
 
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