Revelation leaves no doubt that Jesus is Yahweh, the great I AM?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

See, your starting premise is wrong.
So anything that follows it is wrong.

I preferred not to, but checked Martin and Rhodes, and they have other errors also.... but it's not worth going into here.

Just realize that trusting in them leads to more errors.

Test everything BY SCRIPTURE, not by how you feel or what they say.

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Then what name should be used for the whole triune God?

I agree that everything should be tested by Scripture.

Baby Cottontail said:

...I agree that everything should be tested by Scripture.

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Then trust Yahweh, and trust Yeshua, and go by what Scripture says, instead of what others say.....

find Scripture that shows the Names instead of what you hope to find, and don't add any ideas to that.

Search Scripture..... seeking Yahweh's Kingdom, always seeking, and seeking Truth, always seeking,
and trust Yahweh to grant His Understanding of the Scriptures as He did / does for all His disciples/ ekklesia.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Then trust Yahweh, and trust Yeshua, and go by what Scripture says, instead of what others say.....

find Scripture that shows the Names instead of what you hope to find, and don't add any ideas to that.

Search Scripture..... seeking Yahweh's Kingdom, always seeking, and seeking Truth, always seeking,
and trust Yahweh to grant His Understanding of the Scriptures as He did / does for all His disciples/ ekklesia.

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Thanks, but I'm not just trusting other people in this. I am convinced of what I've been talking about in here because that is what I am convinced Scripture teaches.

There's no other conclusion that makes sense in Scripture.

As an example:
Hebrews 1:10 (NASB)
10 And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;

Psalm 102:25 (NASB)
“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Since the exact verse in the OT doesn't have "Lord" in there, I asked a friend of mine who knows Greek to check the Septuagint for me. He had a little trouble because he said that the Psalms were numbered differently in the Septuagint. I think he ended up saying that it was Psalm 101:26 in the Septuagint. Anyway, when he found the right verse, he said that "Lord" was in the Septuagint there, and that it was designated as YHWH is in the Septuagint.

So, if that is true, then we have the Father calling the Son Yahweh....which would mean that both the Father and Son are Yahweh.

LittleLambofJesus said:

I have seen thread with topics concerning "is Jesus God".
I am going to put up some verses from the book of Revelation showing that He is Yahweh in the flesh.
So before I post anything more, I would like to here views on these scriptures and if anyone would like to add more. I am particular wanting to focus on Revelation as much as possible.

Thank you.

Jeremiah 17:10
I Yahweh, searching heart, examining the affections/kidneys/ 03629 kilyah
and giving to man Ways of him, as fruit of his doings. [Reve 2:23]

The great I AM!

Reve 2:23
And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death,
and shall be knowing all the Assemblies that I AM the ONE-searching kidneys/nefrouV <3510> and hearts
and I shall be giving to Ye each according to the works of Ye. [Jeremiah 17:10]

Reve 16:17
and the seventh one pours out the bowl of him upon the air and came out a great Voice out of the Sanctuary from the Throne saying :it hath become/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Revelation 21:6]

Revelation 21:6
And He said to me:" it hath become/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 16:17]
I AM the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the End.......

Rev 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent My Messenger to testify to you these things in the Assemblies.
I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

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Good post. I didn't think of using those verses to prove that Jesus is the God of the old testament. I mostly just use the default verses.

Baby Cottontail said:

No. I see the word "divine" differently. It isn't the same as deity.

"Divine" is a more general term that people use for more than just God. I don't know if this was the way that the term was originally used. I'd have to look that up. But in today's society, "divine" is a general term for speaking about things in the heavenly realm.

So, the way people use the term "divine" I don't think it means that it has to have the same nature as God.

I tend to steer clear of the term "divine" because people see it and may have different ideas of what the word means.

In the strictest sense, (and probably the original meaning of the term), it would be limited to just God. I just don't see anyone really using it that way today.

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Thanks for the response. Based on what you said, im curious as to what nature you think the angels/sons of God have, if they don't have the same nature as God.

For lack of better term, are they a different species, In your opinion? Could it be possible that they are the same type of being that God is, just lower in authority?

Dkh587 said:

Thanks for the response. Based on what you said, im curious as to what nature you think the angels/sons of God have, if they don't have the same nature as God.

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They are created beings. As I said, they are a separate order of creation. They have their own nature that was created by God. As Hebrews 1:14 says, "they are ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation." Their main purpose in Scripture seems to be to serve God, to worship Him, and to help humans.

Some Christian circles put too much emphasis on them -- some practically worship them. Some spent a lot of time going on and on about angel encounters, just as Colossians 2:18-19 warns against.

Dkh587 said:

For lack of better term, are they a different species, In your opinion? Could it be possible that they are the same type of being that God is, just lower in authority?

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Yes, they are a different species.

God is uncreated. Angels are created beings. Certain angels would like us to think of them as something more...

SPIRIT BEINGS in the Bible:

TRI-UNE GOD
Angels
Saved Believers

satan/devil/serpent/dragon + demons = fallen angels
anti-christ = beast
anti-spirit = false prophet
Unsaved UN-Believers

Baby Cottontail said:

They are created beings. As I said, they are a separate order of creation. They have their own nature that was created by God. As Hebrews 1:14 says, "they are ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation." Their main purpose in Scripture seems to be to serve God, to worship Him, and to help humans.

Some Christian circles put too much emphasis on them -- some practically worship them. Some spent a lot of time going on and on about angel encounters, just as Colossians 2:18-19 warns against.


Yes, they are a different species.

God is uncreated. Angels are created beings. Certain angels would like us to think of them as something more...

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First, let me state that I believe everybody in heaven and earth is under the sovereignty of the Most High God. This includes all angels/sons of God/gods etc

If they(angels, for example) are divine, how is that not sharing the same nature as God? What makes God "God"? Is it not his divinity/divine nature?

Dkh587 said:

First, let me state that I believe everybody in heaven and earth is under the sovereignty of the Most High God. This includes all angels/sons of God/gods etc

If they(angels, for example) are divine, how is that not sharing the same nature as God? What makes God "God"? Is it not his divinity/divine nature?

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Okay -- now there is a difference between calling something divine and having a divine nature. (At least from how I see people using the word "divine.)

If we are talking about divine nature, than only God has that. Angles do not have a divine nature. (Divine nature would be more like deity.)

So -- if someone simply means "divine" in the sense of a heavenly being -- which is probably not the original meaning of the word, but seems to be how people use it now -- then that is simply talking about something that lives in the heavenly realms.

If we are talking about "divine" as in "divine attributes/divine nature" then we are really talking about deity, and thus, God.

Angels have a different nature from God. Firstly, as I said before they are created. Second, some of them have sinned. Thirdly, although they do have powers, this is limited. They are not all knowing. They can't create. They are not perfect, etc.

Matthew 4:8-11 (NASB)
8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
9 and he said to Him,
“All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.”
10 Then Jesus said to him,
“Go, Satan! For it is written,
‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’”
11 Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

THE LORD...Greek 2962...kyrios...
B.is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
C.this title is given to: God, the Messiah
I.he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord

GOD...Greek 2316...theos...
II.the Godhead...
A.God the Father, the first person
B.(God the Son)Jesus the Christ, the second person
C.(God the)Holy Spirit, the third person
III.spoken of the only and true God
A.refers to the things of God
B.his counsels, interests, things due to him

Romans 12:19(NASB)
19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God (theos), for it is written,
“Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.(kyrios)

Baby Cottontail said:

Okay -- now there is a difference between calling something divine and having a divine nature. (At least from how I see people using the word "divine.)

If we are talking about divine nature, than only God has that. Angles do not have a divine nature. (Divine nature would be more like deity.)

So -- if someone simply means "divine" in the sense of a heavenly being -- which is probably not the original meaning of the word, but seems to be how people use it now -- then that is simply talking about something that lives in the heavenly realms.

If we are talking about "divine" as in "divine attributes/divine nature" then we are really talking about deity, and thus, God.

Angels have a different nature from God. Firstly, as I said before they are created. Second, some of them have sinned. Thirdly, although they do have powers, this is limited. They are not all knowing. They can't create. They are not perfect, etc.

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What nature do the angels have, if not the divine nature?

For example, you and I share the human nature. There's human nature, and the divine nature. What other natures are there?

Dkh587 said:

What nature do the angels have, if not the divine nature?

For example, you and I share the human nature. There's human nature, and the divine nature. What other natures are there?

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Angel nature, for lack of a better term. It's an a nature that only angels have.

Like I said, they are a separate order of creation, so they would have their own nature.

Baby Cottontail said:

Angel nature, for lack of a better term. It's an a nature that only angels have.

Like I said, they are a separate order of creation, so they would have their own nature.

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What's different about the nature of angels/sons of God compared to God - Other than the fact that they were created by God?

angels/the sons of God were created to be immortal and live forever, granted that they don't sin. Some of them did sin and will lose their immortality and will die(such as the devil & his cronies). And just to be clear, you do believe that there are many different "beings" in the heavenly realm other than just "angels", right? There's cherubim, seraphim, angels/messengers, and the sons of God.

To me, if somebody or something is immortal and lives forever, then that would mean that they share the same divine nature as God (to a certain extent).

Dkh587 said:

What's different about the nature of angels/sons of God compared to God - Other than the fact that they were created by God?

angels/the sons of God were created to be immortal and live forever, granted that they don't sin. Some of them did sin and will lose their immortality and will die(such as the devil & his cronies). And just to be clear, you do believe that there are many different "beings" in the heavenly realm other than just "angels", right? There's cherubim, seraphim, angels/messengers, and the sons of God.

To me, if somebody or something is immortal and lives forever, then that would mean that they share the same divine nature as God (to a certain extent).

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I listed some things in a previous post. The author of Hebrews shows some differences in Hebrews chapter 1.

Angels are not creators
God is the Creator of all things

Angels are subject to God and worship Him

God has always existed and is eternal
the angels have not always existed -- they are not eternal, although once created it does sound like they do not die.

God has unlimited power
Angels have limited power

God knows everything
Angels have limited knowledge

The Bible doesn't seem to go into a lot of detail in regard to angels because they are not the main focus of the Bible. So the exact differences other than these that can be surmised are unknown.

I have always understood cherubim and seraphim to be types of angels, or classes of angels. (In other words, they would still have the angel nature). Maybe something like different species of angels would be a way of thinking about this. At any rate, they would still be within the "angel" category.

Good Angels are created spirit beings serving God as messengers.

Only the TRI-UNE GOD is DEITY/DIVINITY.

All created beings have immortal spirits, including Man.

Ron Gurley said:

Good Angels are created spirit beings serving God as messengers.

Only the TRI-UNE GOD is DEITY/DIVINITY.

All created beings have immortal spirits, including Man.

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Then why does it say that the Holy Spirit shall quicken your MORTAL body if the same spirit dwells in you that dwelt in Christ? What is the significance of that ..

"the sons of God"

Genesis 6(NASB)...The Corruption of Mankind by disobient spirit beings~angels
1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,
2 that "the sons of God" (spirit beings~angels) saw that the daughters of men were beautiful;
and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
3 Then the Lord said,
“My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he ALSO is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
4 The Nephilim (offspring) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward,
when "the sons of God" came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them.
Those were the mighty MEN who were of old, men of renown.
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart (soul/spirit) was only evil continually.

The Nephilim aka "the sons of God" were evil in God's sight and contrary to God's will.
They were destroyed in the Flood. Their spirits are NOT in the heavenly realms as angels or Men!!

RE: Post #117
Citation to Scripture Please. OFF POINT?

OP: Q: "... Jesus IS (identical to OT) "Yahweh"...

A: FALSE DOCTRINE. JW's ??

Ron Gurley said:

RE: Post #117
Citation to Scripture Please. OFF POINT?

OP: Q: "... Jesus IS (identical to OT) "Yahweh"...

A: FALSE DOCTRINE. JW's ??

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Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is Yahweh.

They teach that Jesus is a created being, a mighty god, but not Almighty God.

We refute their teachings by showing them that Jesus is Yahweh, Almighty God.