Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

Vicomte13 · Oct 11, 2017

Divide said:
The Nephilim never were eligible for redemption, being hybrids,

Why would being a hybrid make one ineligible for redemption?

Consider that there were nephilim after the Flood also. The Anakim, whom the Israelites encountered in Canaan, and Azog the gigantesque king; even Goliath. Were these not post-flood descendants of human-angel unions, post flood Nephil? Were they not men, just like everybody else - as prone to sin and as prone to forgiveness.

Consider the Basques. They have weird blood, a weird language, are only partially interfertile with all other people because of their blood type. They don't seem to have "come from" anywhere. There is no record of their migrations, and they have no known relatives. Their own legendary history says that they came from the giants of the Mountains, who eventually went back up into the mountains (except for Olentzaro, who foretold for them the coming of Christ, and who is the "giant of Christmas" the Basques put up every year). Are the Basques not, perhaps, descendants of Nephilim, hybrids? And yet, are the Basques not men, and if they follow Jesus are they not eligible for the City of God, just like anybody else?

Why wouldn't they be?

Divide · Oct 11, 2017

Phantasman said:
Understand the wilderness. John (the Baptist) was among the Jews, yet they were in the wilderness (of spiritual truth). God the Father was never glorified as the son glorified him. All the good and bad in the OT is attributed to God. The Father never murdered. Yet the Jews believed he did. And Christ told them so:

John 8:
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Keep in mind the capital F, meaning God the Father.

27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

The Jews never had the truth (from heaven).
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Jesus is telling them that the truth didn't come from heaven to Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Notice again the capital F (God) and the small f (fleshly).

Paul explains this further:
Ephesians:
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Colossians:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This ties in directly with the savior saying:

John:
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Again, fathers with a small f.

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Bread is life sustaining knowledge. Jesus said his flesh (body) was that knowledge. He changed bread (OT knowledge) to truth (knowledge of the Father).

Matthew:
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

So what is the mouth of God? Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Gospels (Christ) and Paul (Holy Spirit). They aren't in the OT, as Jesus and Paul plainly say, and why it took the resurrection of truth (Christ) who died and arose at the crucifixion.

Matthew:
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The OT didn't save the Jews. Christ did by going to Hades where they slept (according to Secret John) and Paul.

It's a hard pill to swallow, but Christ said it would be. The deceiver is powerful.

Gospel of Thomas:
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

There's a lot of truth in what you wrote, but I have to disagree with your conclusion (which seems to be that the OT is useless and there's nothing in it for us).

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that NT gifts and stuff were given to all in the OT or anything like that. I'm saying that there's many prophetic truths in the OT which spoke of and pointed to The gospel of the NT. Types and shadows.

he-man · Oct 11, 2017

GUANO said:
Was that the only part you read? Your still defining things from a superstitious mindset and promoting the fight against flesh and blood yet implying that the world is some kind of conscious entity that has wiles (I know that's not what your really implying but speech is key, and I was careful in my speech so I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I believe that horror movie type demons exist).

A demon is not some Hollywood pagan fiction. To be specific, a demon is a background process within the subconscious mind. In fact it's the exact same thing as a daemon within a computer operating system. Its a background process that initiates a program (evokes a spirit) when a specific criteria is met. In simple terms, when I put out my hand in a gesture to shake yours, your immediate reaction is to shake my hand (if your not fully aware and mindful, that is). That is because it is programmed into you by repetition. I (or someone) can also take advantage of many other "familiar spirits" to "bewitch" you and even place you into a state of trance with only tricks of diversion and speech. This is how hypnotism works---and it is witchcraft--and witchcraft is real. But if you have been programmed to believe that witchcraft is fiction because obviously Harry Potter is fiction then you are under a spell and as such much easier to manipulate.

The design of corporate logos has evolved from arts called Sigil and Talismanic magick. Shapes, colors, and other things influence the subconscious mind. Someone who uses this knowledge to manipulate people would be a "witch" who is also using familiar spirits. Witches are real. They may call themselves marketing or "public relations" specialists to fool the weak minded but as Christians we should be smarter than that.

"Witchcraft" and "sorcery" (or call it mental manipulation since you don't believe in evil spirits or people that use them) is also rampant in the church. Everything from the name, the logo, the the architecture, the pictures, the placement of fake plants, the music, everything is meant to manipulate the "atmosphere", the "mood". Someone who evokes spirits is a "sorcerer". The fact that the pastor doesn't know he's engaged in idolatry and witchcraft doesn't make it any less "enchanting". So, is there "good magic"?

There are many different types of demons and other spirits. They are not conscious, living things out to get you, but the people that use them sure can be, and the soirits can sure "get you" becaise it's nature and you cant escape it.

Vampires and Warewolves... Vampires in story and myth represent psychopathic people, while warewolves represent the bipolar--people who turn into monsters at certain intervals. To just discount everything can make it so that you fail to learn when you could learn a lot.

Now, what are the most powerful spiritual beings (things that exist) in the world? They're nations, states, cities, religions, corporations, ideologies, memes/themes, and other such [things that exist].

Our world is far more spiritual than the Egyptians, Babylonians or Assyrians could have ever accomplished or imagined. Giving it the label of "secular" is just another "spell". Nothing is secular (without a spiritual or religious meaning). Secularism, like atheism, is an impossible concept. Under the guise of the secular world you can go to church and claim to worship no other gods, but the "secular" religion transcends it all and you have to just "come out" of it.

When you go to the market to exchange the fruits of your labor with a fictitious entity called "walmart" you are acknowledging it's existence and it's ownership of goods in the real world---effectively rendering worship to this idol that has been conjured out of nowhere by a group of people and then given rights and "personhood" by the state. The whole process and legal ritual is Rosicrucian and freemason in origin---Luciferian. And don't even get me started on the 501c3...

What a slow way around to imply that there are no demons. It is a shame that people just cannot accept the plain and simple. The only demonology that exists is that which comes from the inside, not what exists in the outside world. Don't you think that people have enough sense to know that worldly things are the false gods that people serve. It does not matter if we are talking about 50 A.D. or 2017. The things of the world are emnity to God and we should all know that being friends with those who are more concerned with the world is against what God teaches. Try not to think so hard or try to impress me with Christian dogma next time you reply. First be sure that you are rid of the "fallen angel' theory and take on the armor of God that you may be able to withstand the "wiles" of this world and concentrate upon serving our God only.

Vicomte13 · Oct 11, 2017

Phantasman said:
Christ said teach the Gospel.

And this is the Gospel: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And because you don't always do that, you are a sinner. To be forgiven your sins, you must forgiven others their sins against you. God will forgive you your sins only to the extent that you forgive others their sins.

The good news is that if God forgives you all of your sins, after you die you go straight to Paradise, where you will await the end of the world, then be resurrected into a body which will undergo final judgment and either be thrown alive into fire (if the unforgiven sins are of a certain genre), or will walk through the gates of the City of God to live there (if all of the sins are forgiven, or there are no sins), or will wail outside of the wall in darkness, if the sins are not forgiven, but not on the Lake of Fire list.

The good news also is that if you are imperfect in your forgiveness, and therefore have not been completely forgiven, Gehenna is not forever - it a place where you pay your debt of sin UNTIL the last penny is paid - then you proceed to Gan Eden to await the resurrection and the City of God.

So there is always hope for you, and you will live again. That is all very good news.

The rest is detail, mostly concerned with making sure that people get the good news and know that, so they can act on it.

That is the Gospel.

Vicomte13 · Oct 11, 2017

he-man said:
What a slow way around to imply that there are no demons. It is a shame that people just cannot accept the plain and simple. The only demonology that exists is that which comes from the inside, not what exists in the outside world.

Not true. I've seen a demon.

Vicomte13 · Oct 11, 2017

Phantasman said:
Peter was called Satan because of the ignorance he spoke. Not because he was the devil.

Peter was called "satan", because "satan" means adversary, and at the moment he had just told Jesus that Jesus must not go die in Jerusalem.

Phantasman · Oct 11, 2017

Divide said:
There's a lot of truth in what you wrote, but I have to disagree with your conclusion (which seems to be that the OT is useless and there's nothing in it for us).

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that NT gifts and stuff were given to all in the OT or anything like that. I'm saying that there's many prophetic truths in the OT which spoke of and pointed to The gospel of the NT. Types and shadows.

Shadows is a good description. It is the age of the gray. Jesus was the light. Who would return to gray and leave the light?

The same spirit that caused the gray can influence the light if we go backward.

Gnosis tells us that it was Christ who caused Adam and Eve to eat. Was it the Tree of Life, or the Tree of Death? One said man would die. Another said man would gain knowledge. Who is truth?

The spirit was given to man to save him. Christ said it is the spirit that quickens us. Through the ignorance of the OT, came patriarchy, murderer, lies, adultery, jealousy, etc. Did this come from the soul or the spirit?

When Christ said that Moses didn't get his spiritual food from heaven, what are we to think? When he said that he was "from" heaven, who should we believe?

If the OT teaches anything, it reveals both influences. The life giver and the murderer. We know the murderer existed in the OT because Christ says so.

The only profit of the OT is to prove that Jesus kept the promise of "certain" truths the Jews were told. And through spiritual knowledge, we see the difference between the ignorance and the knowledge (spiritual).

Christ said teach the Gospel. That is not the OT. The church fathers taught it and became murderers as the Jews did. This is NOT Christs teaching (Gospel) and if one is not careful, the "liar and murderer" will corrupt the very Gospel Christ taught.

I don't need the OT. I am a Gentile as those Paul taught. And not influenced by the false gospel Paul spoke against in Galatians. 6 chapters worth reading that shows the emerging ideology of the Pharisee's that tried to use the Law to dispute spiritual truth from Christ, and that the early catholic ideology was dragged into.

Galatians 1:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul mentions the Incident at Antioch, in which the Jews tried to incorporate their OT beliefs into the definition of Christianity. And accused Peter of bowing to such ignorance.

Galatians 2:
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Paul continues in Galatians to refute the gospel the Jews proposed. Basically, including any part of the OT that was Judaism. Read Galatians with a spiritual open mind, and it reveals what was emerging, and how Paul tried to prevent it.

The church fathers wound up accepting the "other gospel", that redeclared the priesthood, something not found in the Gospels or Pauls 10 letters.

Vicomte13 · Oct 11, 2017

Phantasman said:
The rock isn't Peter. It's the Spiritual understanding from the Father that changed Simon (of the flesh) to Peter (of the spirit).

I see no rock that James and John couldn't equal.

But those are just my views from study.

My view from study is that Jesus said that Peter was the rock upon which he would build his church, and bumbling, sometimes failing Peter was exactly what Jesus built his church upon. Peter was the human head, and there is still a human head, in succession. And the human heads are human, and they make bumbling and sometimes terrible human errors. Jesus knew that would happen and he went ahead anyway, breathing the Holy Spirit into the Church so that the human errors, however terrible (and some are absolutely godawful - like witch trials and burnings at the stake...of a saint!...by the Church!), would never result in the teaching of falsehood regarding the essential truths Jesus taught.

Many things COULD be true, but one set of things IS true, and we know what they are through God speaking through Peter and his heirs, imperfect though they may be.

Phantasman · Oct 11, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
And this is the Gospel: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And because you don't always do that, you are a sinner. To be forgiven your sins, you must forgiven others their sins against you. God will forgive you your sins only to the extent that you forgive others their sins.

The good news is that if God forgives you all of your sins, after you die you go straight to Paradise, where you will await the end of the world, then be resurrected into a body which will undergo final judgment and either be thrown alive into fire (if the unforgiven sins are of a certain genre), or will walk through the gates of the City of God to live there (if all of the sins are forgiven, or there are no sins), or will wail outside of the wall in darkness, if the sins are not forgiven, but not on the Lake of Fire list.

The good news also is that if you are imperfect in your forgiveness, and therefore have not been completely forgiven, Gehenna is not forever - it a place where you pay your debt of sin UNTIL the last penny is paid - then you proceed to Gan Eden to await the resurrection and the City of God.

So there is always hope for you, and you will live again. That is all very good news.

The rest is detail, mostly concerned with making sure that people get the good news and know that, so they can act on it.

That is the Gospel.

It's the gospel your (church) fathers follow.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The six chapters of Galatians shows the true gospel over the "other gospel".

I see your gospel as the one Paul speaks against, of fleshly things like the Law, circumcision and diets.

My Gospel is not influenced by the OT. It is the one Paul taught to people like me, a Gentile who didn't have any use for the OT.

I'll follow the Gospel line 11-12 says.

Vicomte13 · Oct 11, 2017

Phantasman said:
It's the gospel your (church) fathers follow.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The six chapters of Galatians shows the true gospel over the "other gospel".

I see your gospel as the one Paul speaks against, of fleshly things like the Law, circumcision and diets.

My Gospel is not influenced by the OT. It is the one Paul taught to people like me, a Gentile who didn't have any use for the OT.

I'll follow the Gospel line 11-12 says.

You quote Paul. I quote Jesus.

You quote a man. I quote God Incarnate.

My gospel is that of God. Yours is that of a man.

Two gospels, one divine: mine. The other one human: yours.

Phantasman · Oct 11, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
My view from study is that Jesus said that Peter was the rock upon which he would build his church, and bumbling, sometimes failing Peter was exactly what Jesus built his church upon. Peter was the human head, and there is still a human head, in succession. And the human heads are human, and they make bumbling and sometimes terrible human errors. Jesus knew that would happen and he went ahead anyway, breathing the Holy Spirit into the Church so that the human errors, however terrible (and some are absolutely godawful - like witch trials and burnings at the stake...of a saint!...by the Church!), would never result in the teaching of falsehood regarding the essential truths Jesus taught.

Many things COULD be true, but one set of things IS true, and we know what they are through God speaking through Peter and his heirs, imperfect though they may be.

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Read the Incident at Antioch. Peter wound up falling to the false gospel that Paul said was accursed. Galatians 1:8-9

You may not see it, but I do.

Phantasman · Oct 11, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
You quote Paul. I quote Jesus.

You quote a man. I quote God Incarnate.

My gospel is that of God. Yours is that of a man.

Two gospels, one divine: mine. The other one human: yours.

ROTFL.
Yet no scripture to back up your words.

You quote words that can be changed, added to or taken away. I follow the Spirit which is what Christ said to do.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ephesians:
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I am amazed.

Vicomte13 · Oct 11, 2017

Phantasman said:
You may not see it, but I do.

That's fine.

I said it to somebody else before, and I'll say it to you. The only authority in the Bible that I accept as binding are words spoken directly by Jesus. Quoting Paul to me is a waste of time. He's not God.

If you were quoting Paul to me to uphold what Jesus said, that would be fine - but then why not just go straight to the source and quote Jesus?

But you're quoting Paul to me to teach something different from what Jesus said. Therefore I ignore it. Paul is not God. Jesus is. Only Jesus has authority. Where Paul aligns with Jesus, Paul is useful. Where he doesn't appear to, he's worse than useless - he's a distraction.

Now, truth be known, I think that Paul DOES align with Jesus, if he's read right, but that people don't read him right.

In any case, it's a distraction. I don't really care what Paul thought. I care what Jesus said.

I note that all of the talk about Paul's teachings is about states of mind, what you believe.

But I note that the gospel of Jesus is all about what you DO.
DO unto others as you would have them DO unto you.
FORGIVE others if you want God to FORGIVE you.
You will be judged on your DEEDS - on what you DID - not on what you thought.
LOVE God.
LOVE your neighbor.
FEED the poor.
HEAL the sick.
Etc.
FOLLOW ME.

Jesus said to DO stuff. Paul is quoted all the time to be saying to think about stuff.
I'm not interested in thinking about what Paul was thinking about. Know why? Because I'm not a Jew. I'm not a Jew, and the Mosaic Covenant wasn't given to me. So I simply don't CARE about how complicated it is to line up animal sacrifice with what Jesus did on the cross for Jews. I'm not a Jew. I'm a sheep from a different fold. Paul was a Pharisee, a Jew OBSESSED with Judaism and its law. And he saw in Christ a way to be free of that law and its binds, in the true "freedom of Christ".
And that's truly great. And useful to know. For a Jew.

But I'm not a Jew. The only Old Testament Law I was ever under was "Don't kill people" and the laws of Physics. I already was free - free to be a wild animal pagan. Jesus brought law to me, brought discipline - not just "Don't kill people", but also "Love people. Take care of people. Forgive people."

You've studied and studied and studied a book, but you've delved into Paul - a guy whose teachings are utterly irrelevant to me in 95% of the cases where it gets hard, because Paul was writing to Jews about things Jews worry about.

The 5% where what Paul says is useful, he is merely repeating through the Spirit what Jesus said much more clearly and explicitly.

Dissolve the Scriptures and just collect what Jesus said. Then de-duplicate and de-triplicate and de-quadruplicate that, and what do you have? A page of very concrete: DO this, DON'T DO that. FORGIVE. LOVE. A short set of laws and principles, and a revelation and promise of what you get in life and at the end of it if you do, and if you don't.

And THAT is the Gospel of Jesus. The rest is an immense amount of background material, such as Paul. Paul is really useful, I guess, for a lot of people. But when people start quoting Paul and going esoteric into thoughts, and stop focusing on what Jesus said to DO, I lose interest, because I can see that person has walked off the path.

he-man · Oct 11, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
Not true. I've seen a demon.

Huh? a figment of the worldly imagination. A vision induced by auto-hypnosis. One of many simple practices for Psycholoy students. I had a barber who cut my hair for many years and one day as we were discussing religion, he asked if he could pray with me. I quickly agreed and we went into the back room. He started his prayer as Iistened intently. He then made a post hypnotic suggestion that if I was in sync with his prayer, I should raise my hand and shout, "Praise God". I recognized it as an attempt of a post-hypnotic suggestion and shot up my hand as fast as I could and then listened quietly to see what else he had to say. He suggested I would give up smoking and chasing girls. He finished and I got out of there as fast as I could and immediately lit a cigarette. Then I THANKED GOD FOR SAVING ME AND HELPING ME BY HAVING TAKEN A CLASS IN PSYCHOLOGY.

Vicomte13 · Oct 11, 2017

Phantasman said:
ROTFL.
Yet no scripture to back up your words.

You quote words that can be changed, added to or taken away. I follow the Spirit which is what Christ said to do.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ephesians:
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I am amazed.

If you want me to read your Scriptures, quote Jesus. Just Jesus. Him, I will listen to. Paul? He's talking to Jews. I'm not a Jew.

Vicomte13 · Oct 11, 2017

he-man said:
Huh? a figment of the worldly imagination. A vision induced ny auto-hypnosis. One of many simple practices for Psycholoy students. I had a barber who cut my hair for many years and one day as we were discussing religion, he asked if he could pray with me. I quickly agreed and we went into the back room. He started his prayer as I istened intently. He then made a post hypnotic suggestion that if I was in sync with his prayer, I should raise my hand and shout, "Praise God". I recognized it as an attempt of a post-hypnotic suggestion and shot up my hand as fast as I could and then listened quietly to see what else he had to say. He suggested I would give up smoking and chasing girls. He finished and I got out of there as fast as I could and immediately lit a cigarette. Then I THANKED GOD FOR SAVING ME AND HELPING ME BY HAVING TAKEN A CLASS IN PSYCHOLOGY.

I dove into a lake alone and broke my neck and was paralyzed and drowning. God saved me by a major miracle.

Keep your fantasies about imagination. You don't know what you're talking about.

he-man · Oct 11, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
I dove into a lake alone and broke my neck and was paralyzed and drowning. God saved me by a major miracle.
Keep your fantasies about imagination. You don't know what you're talking about.

If God saved you that must be why you are here talking to me. God sent you an invitation and if you do not listen to what He says you will think mistakenly, in your own mind, that you did see a demon. Ask God, He will help you, seek and you will find, knock loudly, and the door will be opened. There is an old saying, " the greatest honour you can receive, is to die for your friends". That does not mean a literal death, it means to give up your worldly Life and be dead to the world, and live to be able to turn your friends to recognize what Christ actually teaches.

Phantasman · Oct 11, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
That's fine.

I said it to somebody else before, and I'll say it to you. The only authority in the Bible that I accept as binding are words spoken directly by Jesus. Quoting Paul to me is a waste of time. He's not God.

If you were quoting Paul to me to uphold what Jesus said, that would be fine - but then why not just go straight to the source and quote Jesus?

But you're quoting Paul to me to teach something different from what Jesus said. Therefore I ignore it. Paul is not God. Jesus is. Only Jesus has authority. Where Paul aligns with Jesus, Paul is useful. Where he doesn't appear to, he's worse than useless - he's a distraction.

Now, truth be known, I think that Paul DOES align with Jesus, if he's read right, but that people don't read him right.

In any case, it's a distraction. I don't really care what Paul thought. I care what Jesus said.

I note that all of the talk about Paul's teachings is about states of mind, what you believe.

But I note that the gospel of Jesus is all about what you DO.
DO unto others as you would have them DO unto you.
FORGIVE others if you want God to FORGIVE you.
You will be judged on your DEEDS - on what you DID - not on what you thought.
LOVE God.
LOVE your neighbor.
FEED the poor.
HEAL the sick.
Etc.
FOLLOW ME.

Jesus said to DO stuff. Paul is quoted all the time to be saying to think about stuff.
I'm not interested in thinking about what Paul was thinking about. Know why? Because I'm not a Jew. I'm not a Jew, and the Mosaic Covenant wasn't given to me. So I simply don't CARE about how complicated it is to line up animal sacrifice with what Jesus did on the cross for Jews. I'm not a Jew. I'm a sheep from a different fold. Paul was a Pharisee, a Jew OBSESSED with Judaism and its law. And he saw in Christ a way to be free of that law and its binds, in the true "freedom of Christ".
And that's truly great. And useful to know. For a Jew.

But I'm not a Jew. The only Old Testament Law I was ever under was "Don't kill people" and the laws of Physics. I already was free - free to be a wild animal pagan. Jesus brought law to me, brought discipline - not just "Don't kill people", but also "Love people. Take care of people. Forgive people."

You've studied and studied and studied a book, but you've delved into Paul - a guy whose teachings are utterly irrelevant to me in 95% of the cases where it gets hard, because Paul was writing to Jews about things Jews worry about.

The 5% where what Paul says is useful, he is merely repeating through the Spirit what Jesus said much more clearly and explicitly.

Dissolve the Scriptures and just collect what Jesus said. Then de-duplicate and de-triplicate and de-quadruplicate that, and what do you have? A page of very concrete: DO this, DON'T DO that. FORGIVE. LOVE. A short set of laws and principles, and a revelation and promise of what you get in life and at the end of it if you do, and if you don't.

And THAT is the Gospel of Jesus. The rest is an immense amount of background material, such as Paul. Paul is really useful, I guess, for a lot of people. But when people start quoting Paul and going esoteric into thoughts, and stop focusing on what Jesus said to DO, I lose interest, because I can see that person has walked off the path.

I get it. You're an Anti-Pauline Catholic. Some Messianic's are Anti-Pauline.

John:
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

It's a promise I have all faith in. As well as the the Hauptbriefe.

Vicomte13 · Oct 11, 2017

he-man said:
If God saved you that must be why you are here talking to me. God sent you an invitation and if you do not listen to what He says you will thinmistakenly, in your own mind, that you did see a demon. Ask God, He will help you, seek and you will find, knock loudly, and the door will be opened. Tereis an old saying, " the greatest honour you can receive, is to die for your friends". That does not mean a literal death, it means to give up your worldly kife and be dead to the world, and live to be able to turn your friends to recognize what Christ actually teaches.

I did ask God. He sent a dove that flew into my head and drove off the demon.

What Christ actually teaches is:
Love your neighbor as yourself and God over all.
That loving your neighbor MEANS doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, including FEEDING and CLOTHING the poor, HEALING the sick, CARING FOR the prisoner.
Also, that when we fall short in our loving, that is sin. For God to forgive us our sin, Christ teaches that we must ourselves forgive others who sin against us - that God will forgive us ONLY to the extent that we forgive others - that if we do NOT forgive others, then God does not forgive our sins either.
Jesus teaches that after we die, we proceed to Paradise or Gehenna, depending on our sins. If we have unforgiven sins, then we remain in Gehenna paying that debt of unforgiven sin UNTIL THE LAST PENNY IS PAID.
He teaches that at the end of the world, we will all be restored into bodies and individually come before God for final judgment. Those whose sins are forgiven will pass through the gates of the City of God, which will come down from the skies. Those with sins on the lists of the most condemnable sins will be thrown into the Lake of Fire for the second death. And others - an indeterminate set who do not enter the City nor have committed the deadly sins on the list and are unforgiven - will wail in outer darkness.

So, to get a good result at the end of life, LOVE and DO. And since you're going to sin, FORGIVE, and you will be forgiven.

That is what Christ actually teaches.

Christ also demonstrates that there are demons, that there is a devil, that there are angels. It is BECAUSE I have seen some of that, and experienced miracles, directly, that I realize that God is actually REAL, and that what Christ teaches is TRUE, and that the Christian teachings are not just another form of religious fable, like Odin and Zeus, and Islam and Bhuddism and Mystic Crystals, and all of the other nonsense.

You obviously come at this from a very different angle. Which is fine. What Christ taught, he taught. If you have not experienced the supernatural and yet believe in what Christ taught anyway - and you get what he taught RIGHT and focus on what HE actually taught - which was about DOING, not THINKING - then you're on the right track and carry on.

But don't try to teach others that things are not so that are so, just because you haven't seen them. Your world has no demons or angels in it, but the real world does. Be glad that you don't see them, or need to.

Vicomte13 · Oct 11, 2017

Phantasman said:
I get it. You're an Anti-Pauline Catholic. Some Messianic's are Anti-Pauline.

John:
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

It's a promise I have all faith in. As well as the the Hauptbriefe.

I'm not anti-Pauline. I have no beef with Paul. My beef is with YOU. You want to teach me, to call me ignorant, to tell me what is so. You are failing miserably because you want to do it on YOUR terms, but your terms are insulting and they ignore what I am ready to listen to.

You quoted Jesus on the spirit. That's great. That's a start. I am full of his spirit. You're telling me I'm not - but I'm telling you what Jesus said - and I have so internalized it that I don't NEED to go running back to a book and quote lines verbatim. My paraphrase of Jesus is short, sweet, and completely accurate. It's not a hard gospel to understand.

You want to go squirrely and talk about Paul. It's useless.

If you have the spirit of God in you, and you can only talk about God using DIRECT quotes from the Bible, because that's your particular "thing", then go ahead and tell me what Jesus wants you and me to DO.

You've told me about the spirit. I speak from the spirit and I know it. You? I'm not hearing JESUS' spirit yet. I'm hearing yours, and seeing yours flitting around to find lines in the Bible that agree with what you have decided is true by thinking it out.

Lay out for me what Jesus wants me to do, using Jesus' words - Just Jesus.

If you do that, and you believe what you are saying, then you will discover that you and I are brothers in spirit and already are doing and believing the same thing, just expressing it differently.

Right now, I don't see that at all. I see a man, deep in his own reading and wisdom and learning, preaching at me, arrogantly. I don't sense love. I don't even sense Paul. I sense you.

So if you'd like, start over, and make your case with just Jesus.
If you really are with Jesus, then the spirit will make that obvious to both of us.

Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

Can demons be given HOPE?

No... the demons have zero hope!

Yes..... Elijah must "restore all things"

I am not sure but I will research this further.

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