The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

keras said:

How then, do you reconcile Revelation 11:15.....Sovereignty over the world has passed to God and to Christ and He shall reign forever!

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Jesus is still in Heaven in Revelation 11:15....The Coming of Jesus [as a thief] is clearly mentioned to happen AFTER the 6 TH VIAL -Just before the 7TH Vial- Revelation 16:15-17...

keras said:

With Satan being given permission to control the world for 42 months? Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:5, Daniel 7:25, Zechariah 14:1-2
You have made an impossible situation here.

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The FIRST action that Jesus will take to affirm His AUTHORITY will be to clear the house in Heaven from its undesirable elements
as clearly mentioned in
Revelation 12:10
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels [going forth] to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; 8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the AUTHORITY of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.

Riberra said:

Jesus is still in Heaven in Revelation 11:15....The Coming of Jesus [as a thief] is clearly mentioned to happen AFTER the 6 TH VIAL -Just before the 7TH Vial- Revelation 16:15-17...



The FIRST action that Jesus will take to affirm His AUTHORITY will be to clear the house in Heaven from its undesirable elements
as clearly mentioned in
Revelation 12:10
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels [going forth] to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; 8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the AUTHORITY of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.

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You forgot the part of chapter 12, which proves it is a review of Church history.

Rev 12:5　 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.　



Psa 2:7　 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.　

Psa 2:8　 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.　

Psa 2:9　 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.　


There is nothing in the text of Revelation 11:15 which says Christ is in heaven, at that point.

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keras said:

How then, do you reconcile Revelation 11:15.....Sovereignty over the world has passed to God and to Christ and He shall reign forever!
With Satan being given permission to control the world for 42 months? Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:5, Daniel 7:25, Zechariah 14:1-2
You have made an impossible situation here. Obviously Jesus takes control at His Return, as we read in Revelation 19:11-17
Both of you, Riberra and BaB, would be far better to cease your speculations and guesswork about the last days events, as you just show how confused and stuck in false beliefs that you are.

What I am trying to do in this thread, is to warn people of the next event, which is the Lord's Day of wrath, plainly shown by Jesus as He quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a, stopping just before the yet to happen, many prophesied; terrible Day that will change our world and lead up to the glorious Return of Jesus.

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Because Revelation isn't in chronological order. I really suggest you read that thread I posted about the sixth seal and study the passages very carefully.

BABerean2 said:

You forgot the part of chapter 12, which proves it is a review of Church history.

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Revelation 12:1-5 is about Jesus, from the moment He was born until His Ascension to Heaven >That is the History part.

The rest of the text is about the 42 Months when the remnant of the woman seed [Christians]will be chased and killed by Satan and the Beast Revelation 12:17 ....Revelation 13.

BABerean2 said:

There is nothing in the text of Revelation 11:15 which says Christ is in heaven, at that point.

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The proof is in the pudding
Read the verse who follow verse 15.
Revelation 11:15-16
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become [the kingdom] of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, who sit before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces and worshipped God, 17 saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art and who wast; because thou hast taken thy great power, and didst reign.
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Do you Remember the Throne Room that John Saw in Heaven mentioned in Revelation 4:1-6 with the 24 Elders ...
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Revelation 4:1-6
1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, [a voice] as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

2 Straightway I was in the Spirit: and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting upon the throne; 3 and he that sat [was] to look upon like a jasper stone and a sardius: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, like an emerald to look upon.

4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty thrones: and upon the thrones [I saw] four and twenty elders sitting, arrayed in white garments; and on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceed lightnings and voices and thunders. And [there was] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; 6 and before the throne, as it were a sea of glass like a crystal; and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, four living creatures full of eyes before and behind.

Riberra said:

The proof is in the pudding
Read the verse who follow verse 15.

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Once again, you have stopped before the pudding is finished.


Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　
Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　
Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　
Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　
Rev 11:19　 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
　
(Rev_16:18　 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Rev 16:21　 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.)


The text above from Revelation chapter 11 says that the wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead follows right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
There is no 8th trumpet.

We know this is the judgment of "all" the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30, because we see both reward and punishment in the text.
This is the same judgment found in Matthew 25:31-46.
There can only be one judgment of "all" the dead, which is described in different ways in several different passages.

We also find the thunder, lightnings, earthquake, and great hail that connect the passage to Revelation chapter 16.
Sit down and calculate the probability of having these same four specific phenomena described in both passages, without the passages being connected.

How many times in your lifetime have you had thunder and lightning and great hail and an earthquake in your neighborhood, all on the same day?

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keras said:

There is no reason that this cannot happen multiple times.

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How many times have you seen it happen in your neighborhood?

keras said:

18b the time for Judgement and rewards..... Awaiting the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:12

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Based on the following words of Christ, the Judgment occurs at the Second Coming of Christ.


The Final Judgment (subtitle from eSword)

Mat 25:31　 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:　

Mat 25:32　 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:　

Mat 25:33　 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.　

Mat 25:34　 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:　




Mat 25:41　 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:　

Mat 25:45　 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.　

Mat 25:46　 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.　


It is confirmed by the following.

2Ti_4:1　 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

He will judge both those living and the dead at His appearing and his kingdom.

The text above kills the premill doctrine.

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BABerean2 said:

He will judge both those living and the dead at His appearing and his kingdom.

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The verses that you quote from Matthew 25:31-46
is the Judgment of Revelation 14:9-12 ....

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

But the throwing into the lake of fire will happen only after the Great white throne Judgment /1,000 years after the Coming Of Jesus/.....BECAUSE at the COMING OF JESUS ,ONLY THE BEAST AND the FALSE PROPHET WILL BE THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE ...while those that will have taken the mark will be slain by Jesus along with the armies assembled at Armageddon.
Revelation 19:20-21 ...Luke 17:34-37....

Your mistake is that you dont believe in the Millennium reign of Jesus on the Earth when Jesus will reign with His SAINTS MARTYRS [Revelation 20:4-6] who will precede the Great White Throne Judgment.

keras said:

Wrong, BaB, [and Riberra] you misread these scriptures:
Matthew 25:31 Describes the glorious Return, then verses 32-4 & 41-46 is about the Judgement at the GWT, which happens 1000 years later. Proved by Revelation 20:11-15, where it then that the everlasting punishment and eternal life, are conferred.

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That is true that the final punishment for the sinners [lake of fire] will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment Revelation 20:11-15....

But obviously UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS all those that will be assembled at Armagedon will be slain by Jesus... at that moment the sinners will be ALL THOSE WITH THE MARK OF THE BEAST...Revelation 14:9-12

Revelation 19:20-21
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone: 21and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, [even the sword] which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Luke 17:35-37
34 I say unto you, In that night two people shall be in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 There shall be two women grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

36 [There shall be two men in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.] 37 And they answering say unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Where the body [is], thither will the eagles also be gathered together.

keras said:

Riberra, I have deleted your name from my #111. I do agree with you, as I say in 112.

But re #113, I disagree that Luke 17:24-37 is about the Return.
I see that prophecy as another description of the Sixth Seal. Confirmed by Matthew 24:27-29, followed by Matthew 24:30-31 After that time of distress, [the Sixth Seal and the Great Tribulation] there will appear in heaven, the Son of man.... The glorious Return.

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Luke 17:30-37 /Matthew 24:27-28/Revelation 19:17-21 these verses refers to the Coming of Jesus which we know will be at Armageddon ....they all refers to birds [eagles] gathered together .Revelation 19:17..

Luke 17:30-37
30 ..after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed.
31
.......
36 [There shall be two men in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.]
37 And they answering say unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Where the body [is], thither will the eagles also be gathered together.

Matthew 24:27-28
27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

28 Wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Revelation 19:17-21
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come [and] be gathered together unto the great supper of God;


20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone:

21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, [even the sword] which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Riberra said:

Your mistake is that you dont believe in the Millennium reign of Jesus on the Earth when Jesus will reign with His SAINTS MARTYRS [Revelation 20:4-6] who will precede the Great White Throne Judgment.

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We see in the following verses one singular day of judgment in which He will judge the living and the dead. We do not find plural "days of judgment" or "judgments" in the text.

Mat_11:22　 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Mat_12:36　 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mat_11:24　 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Act_10:42　 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

2Ti_4:1　 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Heb_9:27　 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

1Jn_4:17　 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1Pe_4:5　 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

Jud_1:6　 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Jesus said in Matthew chapter 25 that the judgment will be at His Second Coming.

Paul said in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 that Christ returns in "flaming fire".
When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

In Revelation 11:18 we find that the time of the Judgment of the dead is right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, because there is no 8th trumpet.

Paul tells us in 2 Timothy that both those alive and dead will be judged at His return.

The first resurrection found in John chapter 5 is the spiritual resurrection, which occurs upon faith in Christ. (John 5:24) These words were recorded by the same man who recorded Revelation chapter 20.
The second resurrection in John 5 is of the body found in John 5:27-30, and is concurrent with the Judgment.

In Revelation chapter 20 we have "souls" that were seen in heaven.

Christ defeated sin and death at the Cross.
He is not going to rule over a world where sin and death remain for 1,000 years when He returns.
Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13, on the Day of the Lord when Christ returns as a thief.

Paul said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

The only way you can get your millennium view to work is by ignoring all of the above.
This is why the premill doctrine cannot be correct, because it is in conflict with numerous other passages of scripture.


Pastor Steve Gregg speaks here on Revelation chapter 20.
He is a former Dispensationalist, who finally rejected the pretrib and premill doctrines, when he could not get them to align with scripture.





Do you believe Christ will be officiating funeral services for dead mortals during your millennium?

BABerean2 said:

We see in the following verses one singular day of judgment in which He will judge the living and the dead. We do not find plural "days of judgment" or "judgments" in the text.

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We find Judgments (plural) in Revelation 19:1-2 which refers to .... The Judgment of the dead and reward to the prophets in Revelation 11:18 [no resurrection for them yet]....The Judgment of Great Babylon in Revelation 18 and the Judgment destruction of those who have taken the mark that will occurs at Armageddon Revelation 19... And the resurrection reward of the [martyrs Saints] and the prophets Revelation 20:4-6

Revelation 19:1
1 After these things I heard as it were a great voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah; Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God: 2 for true and righteous are his judgments; for he hath judged the great harlot, her that corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Riberra said:

We find Judgments (plural) in Revelation 19:1-2 which refers to .... The Judgment of the dead in Revelation 11....The Judgment of Great Babylon in Revelation 18 and the Judgment of those alive that will occurs at Armageddon...

Revelation 19:1
1 After these things I heard as it were a great voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah; Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God: 2 for true and righteous are his judgments; for he hath judged the great harlot, her that corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

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And how many judgments do we find in that verse?
One. It is the judgment of the great harlot.

It the two verses below we find the same Greek word.
One is judgment and the other is judgments.

Revelation 19:1
(KJV+)　 ForG3754 trueG228 andG2532 righteousG1342 are hisG848 judgments:G2920 forG3754 he hath judgedG2919 theG3588 greatG3173 harlot,G4204 whichG3748 did corruptG5351 theG3588 earthG1093 withG1722 herG848 fornication,G4202 andG2532 hath avengedG1556 theG3588 bloodG129 of hisG848 servantsG1401 atG1537 herG848 hand.G5495

Matthew 5:21
(KJV+)　 Ye have heardG191 thatG3754 it was saidG4483 by them of old time,G744 Thou shalt notG3756 kill;G5407 andG1161 whosoeverG3739 G302 shall killG5407 shall beG2071 in dangerG1777 of theG3588 judgment:G2920


In the overwhelming majority of the New Testament texts where the final judgment is indicated, it is clearly one judgment.

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