Does God want us to "sin less" in this life or to "stop sinning?"

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Dear Aseyesee:

James 1:13 says God does not tempt any man.

"...neither tempteth he any man" (James 1:13).

Jesus was unlike other men because He is God on the inside.

Therefore, James 1:13 was obviously in reference to all men who could be actually tempted internally to sin, unlike God (who cannot be tempted to do evil).

So when Matthew 4:1 says, "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." It is referring to the fact that Jesus was going to be tempted externally by the devil but Christ would be immune to these temptations internally Himself because He is God. For why do you think the devil fleed from Him and no longer tempted Jesus anymore? It's because the devil figured out that this had to be the Son of God who cannot be tempted by sin.

So Aseyesee:

Do you believe the part in James 1:13 that says, "...neither tempteth he any man" ?
 
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A_Thinker

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1 John 2

1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
 
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1 John 2

1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

You have to keep reading, though.

1 John 2:3-6 says,

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6).

A similar thing in 1 John 2:3-4 is said here:

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Proverbs 28:13).

John also says,
"sin not." (1 John 2:1).

Jesus says,
"sin no more" (John 5:14) (John 8:11).

Jesus and John do not say,
"sin not even though you cannot help but to sin."

John says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8).
John says,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Is one working righteousness if they are also doing evil?

Well, Jesus said to the believers who did wonderful works to depart from because they also were working iniquity (sin). (Matthew 7:23).
 
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"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).
 
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Aseyesee

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Sorry, my friend, but this sounds like an attack upon God's Word.
However, there is no contradiction in God's Word. It is all 100% true.

Anyways, Jesus (the Living Word - Second person of the Godhead or the Trinity) did not have a created soul like men do. Jesus could not be internally tempted to do evil because He is God on the inside of the temple of flesh and blood (from Adam) that covered Him.

There was no way Jesus could have ever sinned because He is God 100% on the inside.

James 1:13 is in reference to the temptation to created men with created souls.
Jesus did not have a created soul. For His goings forth (i.e.. His origins) was from everlasting (Micah 5:2). Jesus only had a created flesh and blood body that covered His Eternal Nature as God. Yes, Jesus's Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge) was suppressed so as to be a parallel of Adam (Who was also limited in knowledge) so that He could be our subsititute, but it was still impossible for the Son of God (Second person of the Godhead) to sin. He was still God. God is holy. All temptation was only external and not internal.

Hebrews 4:15 and Hebrews 2:18 is speaking of "temptation" (in an external sense) by the one who was tempting him. For example: If Rick walked into a park and a thief came up to him with some hot watches to sell (with Rick having zero interest in buying them because he knows they are most likely stolen), Rick can then say this to his fellow co-workers the next day, "Yeah, some guy tempted me to buy some hot watches in the park yesterday." Bob, a fellow co-worker said to Rick, "What did you do? Rick replied, "I said, No thank you." Bob said, "That is good." Rick replied, "Yeah, I had zero interest in buying from him because they were most likely stolen."

Okay. So was Rick tempted? Yes, and no.
Yes, Rick was tempted externally by his temptor (i.e. the thief).
Yet, this would also be a "no" because Rick was not tempted internally himself in any way by the thief's proposition.
Yes, I believe it, but this was "external temptation" only.
There is a difference in understanding that and "internal temptation."
Jesus also did not have a created soul like men.
So James 1:13 does not apply here to Jesus.
James 1:13 says God cannot be tempted by evil.
Jesus is God so the temptation placed upon him was external temptation only and would not effect Jesus.



Jesus did not have a created soul and nor was He tempted internally to sin. If one is being tempted to sin, then one is having sinful thoughts or inclinations to do evil. This is not possible for Jesus because He is God and He is holy.



Well, this would be a trust in the wrong thing, dear sir.
Jesus is God.
Jesus is Holy.
Jesus cannot be tempted to do evil because James 1:13 says God cannot be tempted by evil.



I trust in God's Word in what it says plainly.
I am not into any games of having contests of knowledge of the things of God. Any knowledge I have from God comes from the Lord. It is a blessing and gift from Him. If others do not understand God's Word, it is because they do not want to understand it.
I understand where your coming from ...

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil is directed at God, as one who is our father; which in no part is a generalization.

It is a deliver us from where you lead us to.

Wouldn't your version of Jesus' temptation make it a mute point, in that in no way was he on all points tempted like us, so he can not identify with us, not being vulnerable as one of us.

God lead himself to be tempted by what he could not be tempted by in the first place ...
 
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I understand where your coming from ...

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil is directed at God, as one who is our father; which in no part is a generalization.

It is a deliver us from where you lead us to.

Wouldn't your version of Jesus' temptation make it a mute point, in that in no way was he on all points tempted like us, so he can not identify with us, not being vulnerable as one of us.

God lead himself to be tempted by what he could not be tempted by in the first place ...

Well, if what you say is true, then Jesus had a human soul so as to be tempted by evil. But this is not possible.

For Hebrews 7:26 says that Jesus is separate from sinners and that He is holy, and undefiled.

"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens." (Hebrews 7:26).​

Also, James 1:13 says God does not tempt any man to sin, and yet you think God breaks His Word and says that He tempts man to sin.

In addition, Jesus is said that His "going forths" (i.e. His origins) is from everlasting (Micah 5:2). So Jesus did not have a created human soul so as to be tempted internally by evil.

Jesus is eternally God.
 
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For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

I agree with this verse.
 
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Aseyesee

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Well, if what you say is true, then Jesus had a human soul so as to be tempted by evil. But this is not possible.

For Hebrews 7:26 says that Jesus is separate from sinners and that He is holy, and undefiled.

"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens." (Hebrews 7:26).​

Also, James 1:13 says God does not tempt any man to sin, and yet you think God breaks His Word and says that He tempts man to sin.

In addition, Jesus is said that His "going forths" (i.e. His origins) is from everlasting (Micah 5:2). So Jesus did not have a created human soul so as to be tempted internally by evil.

Jesus is eternally God.

I never said God tempted anyone ... lead you into it, scriptually ... is another matter (yet to a desired end).

If Jesus could not be tempted, how could he be tempted in all points like us? Was the Hebrew writer wrong?

Do I believe Jesus is God ... Jesus never said he was God, but to say you are the son God is the equvialent of saying you are, as those who were going to stone him noted, yet Jesus uses the scriptures to show them that they were going to stone him for what the scripture had already said they were.
 
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salt-n-light

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If you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is talking about how the believer will always sin or be under sin, then you must also conclude that no believer has any understanding and does not seek after God, too (Read Romans 3:11). So yeah. Your reading Romans 3 correctly. Paul is quoting from the Psalms.



"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ..." (Romans 3:22).

What does the faith the righteousness of God by the faith of Jesus Christ look like?

Jesus said to His disciples,
19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:19-20).

This is what the righteousness of God by faith in Jesus Christ looks like. We are to teach others to observe everything Christ commanded us (Which would be within the pages of your New Testament).

Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46).



You are undermining sin. If a person commits grevious sin (like abusing a child, or hating their brother, or committing adultery, etc.) that does not mean they are imperfect. It means they are disloyal to God. It would be like committing treason against your country. Paul says be not deceived. The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.



You need to read 1 Peter 4:1-2. We are told that we can cease from sin by suffering as Christ had suffered. Verse 2 says we are to live the rest of our time here not to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

As for Jude:

Jude 1:4 (NIV) says,
"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."



There is no such thing for the true and faithful believer. They realize all good comes from the Lord Jesus Christ. All good that they do is Christ (God) working in them.



No such Scripture teaches such a false thing.



Actually, Titus 2:11-14 refutes what you believe. Verse 11-12 says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world. But you really don't believe we can live righteously in this present world as this text says. Verse 14 says that Jesus gave Himself for us so that He could redeem us from all iniquity and that we should be zealous of good works.

I don't even know where you stand with your replies, so I can't even respond.I'm sorry.
 
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salt-n-light

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Good to formulate attempts to respond from within the terms of Scripture, right? :)

Yeah we all need to make sure we check ourselves through the Word and not just depend on how we view things.Its one thing to teach with patience through what God revealed in the scriptures, its another to just use scriptures to back up an already self-made stance on a topic.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Yeah we all need to make sure we check ourselves through the Word and not just depend on how we view things.Its one thing to teach with patience through what God revealed in the scriptures, its another to just use scriptures to back up an already self-made stance on a topic.
Over the centuries, it's still been remarkable also how Bible believing Christians have still managed such a lot of consensus.
 
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When we are truly born again, we are just like Him? A son made in the image of God?

No. A believer does not rely upon their one time acceptance of Christ (i.e. the "New Birth") their whole life so as to be right with God. Romans 8:29 is not teaching some kind of OSAS justification whereby you have a belief alone on Jesus your whole life that makes you different looking to the Father.
You are reading it wrong.
Let me help you.

"For whom he [God] did foreknow, he [God] also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he [Christ] might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29).​

So you have to be CONFORMED to the image of the Son. Meaning, you have to walk as Christ walked (See 1 John 2:6).

Here is some context.

13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
(Romans 8:13-14).​

So if Romans 8 here is saying if you live after the flesh, you will die spiritually; But if you through the Spirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as who are led by the Spirit of God (doing the things of the Spirit) THEY are the sons of God.

And even more context.

3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:3-8).​

So Jesus condemned sin in the flesh (with His death and resurrection) so that the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the Law (God's eternal moral laws - or to Love your neighbor - See Romans 13:8-10) could be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh (sin) but after the Spirit. For they that are in the flesh (sinful ways of thinking) do mind the things of the flesh (sin). Romans 8:2 says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 1 John 1:7 confirms this. If you walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all sin.
 
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I never said God tempted anyone ... lead you into it, scriptually ... is another matter (yet to a desired end).

It sounds like the same thing. How are they truly different?
If God cannot tempt anyone, then it would be a contradiction if He led someone into temptation even Scripturally.

You said:
If Jesus could not be tempted, how could he be tempted in all points like us? Was the Hebrew writer wrong?

No. As I said before, Jesus was tempted externally in all points like us; Yet, Hebrews also says He was without sin. He had physical flesh and blood covering His being as God, but seeing God cannot be tempted to do evil, there was no internal temptation on His part to do any kind of evil. Hebrews 7:26 says that Jesus is holy, undefiled, and separate from sinners. Jesus was only tempted in all points like us because He was physically faced with sin in the flesh of man; But yet He did not sin because He is God; For God is not capable of sinning.

You said:
Do I believe Jesus is God ... Jesus never said he was God, but to say you are the son God is the equvialent of saying you are, as those who were going to stone him noted, yet Jesus uses the scriptures to show them that they were going to stone him for what the scripture had already said they were.

Do you believe that the soul and spirit within the body of the man named Jesus was the Second Person of the Godhead or the Trinity? Do you believe that the "Living Word" who is God was made flesh in John 1 was eternal and uncreated?
 
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BetzaidaK

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No. You have things backwards. Jesus did not die so you that you could still sin or not worry about sin. Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14 both say that Jesus gave Himself for the purpose to make us holy, without blemish, and to be zealous of good works. In fact, the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live righteously in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). 2 Corinthians 7:1 says, "we are to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God." I really do not see how this verse fits with your belief, unless of course you change it to mean something else.



In Defending of what Romans 7 really says:
(Click on the following spoiler button):
Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."


However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts of the Apostles 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a for only a few words within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
(Note: The majority of the content of this post on Romans 7 through Romans 8 was written by me).



You cannot just rip a verse out of it's context to fit your belief. Did you also read the chapter recently? The context is saying if the Israelites return to the Lord with all their heart, and with all their soul, then He will forgive His people which have sinned against Him.

38 "If they return to thee with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their captivity, whither they have carried them captives, and pray toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, and toward the city which thou hast chosen, and toward the house which I have built for thy name:
39 Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and forgive thy people which have sinned against thee." (2 Chronicles 6:38-39).

2 Chronicles 6:36 is saying there is not a person who has not sinned in the respect of their entire lives. Meaning, even faithful believers used to be sinners before they came to the Lord and started to walk in God's good ways. It is not talking about a believer's life in the present tense. If it was the case, you would have to conclude that you are sinning right now and or that people sin every second of every hour. For if you can be faithful for 5 minutes, logic dictates that you can be faithful for a longer amount of time. Try retreating into a forest for a month and just read the Word of God and pray to the Lord. How are you going to sin then?



That is a lie.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48).

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40).

Don't believe the word "perfect" means "perfect"?

Here is another related word saying the same thing.

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world." (Philippians 2:15).



No. Zephaniah 2:3 in the KJV says,
"Seek you the LORD, all you meek of the earth, who have kept his commands; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be you shall be hidden in the day of the LORD'S anger."

You can't be keeping His commandments if you are also breaking them, too.
Read 1 John 2:3-4.

Hi,
I believe you misunderstand me. I did not mentioned that one should not worry about sinning. I mentioned that since one is imperfect, one can not live without sin because of one's imperfection. Otherwise, Jesus sacrifice was in vain and the purpose of the Ten Commandments was also in vain. John 3:16 "God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” One should have faith in Jesus sacrifice and do one's best to follow God's norms.

2 Corinthians 7:1 "Therefore, since we have these promises,+ beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit,+ perfecting holiness in the fear of God." That text is correct; yet you failed to understand the word "perfecting," represent continuous effort not a final standing. The text actually supports my paragraph above as it shows that one has to continuously keep obeying God's norms to be able to get His approval. You are just misunderstanding me.

Matthew 5:48. Yes, in a relative sense. Jesus was here discussing the subject of love, and he told listeners to imitate God and be perfect, or complete, in their love. (Matt. 5:43-47) How? By expanding it to include their enemies. It is impossible to be perfect in the literal sense. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." All those texts you have pointed out mention to be "perfect" in a relative sense. Not a literal sense. Otherwise the Bible contradicts itself.
 
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I don't even know where you stand with your replies, so I can't even respond.I'm sorry.

I believe Romans 3 is saying that all men have all sinned through out their whole life while man was without God in their life. The point Paul is trying to make is Justification or Initial Salvation. In Romans 3:1, Paul says, "what profit is there in circumcision?" Circumcision was something you did in the Old Testament as a part of your faith if you were a male Israelite. It was done eight days later after they were born. But Paul is saying now that both the Jew and the Gentile are both are under sin (within the New Covenant) and they can be forgiven of sins the same way by asking Jesus to forgive them of their sins and by believing that He died and was risen on their behalf (i.e. Initial Salvation).

Paul's point in Romans 3 is not the Christian walk or Sanctification (Continued Salvation) but it was one of Justificaiton or Initial Salvation. Paul starts to mention Sanctification (i.e. to live holy as a part of Christ's death and resurrection) in Romans 6:4-6, Romans 6:12-13, Romans 6:22, Romans 8:1-4.

Note: Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 cannot be in reference to the believer who is walking faithfully in Jesus (as in reference to their present life). Yes, they had sinned in their past old life when they were an unbeliever; But they shouldn't be still sinning like they were an unbeliever. Romans 3:11 says that they are without understanding and do not seek after God. So this obviously is not in reference to the faithful believer's current present day existence (or their present every day walk with God). Eternal Security Proponents try to defend that all believers sin by falsely pointing to Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23. But they have to ignore Romans 3:11 in order to make their odd interpretation work, though.
 
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