Kneeling during the National Anthem

Allie Short said:

Just because you don’t like what’s happening in your country doesn’t mean you have the financial and emotional means to leave it. They protest because they want to improve it, not abandon ship.

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Isn't it astonishing that if you dare to ever question or challenge America, then you're told you should leave the country? I think that's one of the stupidest comments anyone has ever said to me.

Allie Short said:

Just because you don’t like what’s happening in your country doesn’t mean you have the financial and emotional means to leave it. They protest because they want to improve it, not abandon ship.

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It's as if we're all supposed to be thoughtless and obedient servants to America. It's as if we're never to question or challenge or wonder if America is great or not or else we should leave the country.

Allie Short said:

Keep in mind that a lot of flag code ISN’T followed anyway! Flags are not supposed to be worn, used in advertising, as part of costumes, on things you’ll throw away (napkins, tissues, etc), or held horizontally. Is it right to criticize those who kneel when pretty much the whole country ‘disrespects’ the flag anyway? Not judging your views, just curious!

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A team owner could potentially require employees, players, to follow certain rules during games.

But....

But the thing is, the anthem The Star Spangled Banner is exactly about America as a nation gaining it's freedom!

Looks at the words. The land of the free.

So the free speech of kneeling during the anthem to protest discrimination....well....free speech is about as American as anything can get.

That's why the whole situation is so complex. Is the moment of the anthem in a way unlike the rest of the game, special?

To me it is, and that's why I respect the free speech at that moment, regardless of whether I agree or disagree. That's the whole point -- freedom to say what you think.

If later on, no anthem happening, a player acts in a way that is really bad, then it's a whole different situation entirely, and then I'd like to see it addressed differently at that other time.

But free speech during the anthem is always going to be American, and OK with me.

The Anthem is a special moment with it's own special rules. American freedom.

SolomonVII said:

Make your own poll then, and test you hypothesis.
It would be good to make it public too.

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People lie about these things in polls because they're shamed into it. Look at how Hillary Clinton was supposed to win because polls showed it and that's because people lied on the polls that they'd vote for her (shamed into it) but then voted for Trump.

I stated my opinion, you can agree or disagree, but it's not like I stated poll results so I'm not sure why you're asking for that.

ArmenianJohn said:

People lie about these things in polls because they're shamed into it. Look at how Hillary Clinton was supposed to win because polls showed it and that's because people lied on the polls that they'd vote for her (shamed into it) but then voted for Trump.

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Well, then I guess that all is left for you is to do is to continue thinking the worse of people without any evidence rather than that is how you feel about other people.

SolomonVII said:

Well, then I guess that all is left for you is to do is to continue thinking the worse of people without any evidence rather than that is how you feel about other people.

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Oh I have evidence it's just that it's anecdotal. I'm white and I'm around a ton of white people and I know when they're being racist and it's clear that they're angry because it's Kaepernick being black and kneeling rather than simply because he's kneeling.

I'll stop thinking the worst of people when those people give me evidence to the contrary. They're a bunch of ignorant racists who think they're fooling me and others.

I think your disconnect is in that you're Canadian and this is happening in America, not Canada. Unless recently the Argos were kneeling during "O Canada", maybe they are taking up for first nations peoples' right? Yeah, like that would ever happen! Canada is the best country in the world at fooling itself into thinking they don't have a racism problem when they're one of the worst! Worse than the USA!

If I was asked to take a knee while the athem played I think I would have a problem with doing that (personally) because I dont even see it as a form of protest but of worship in most cases. Since the bowing of the knee before a thing (with perhaps the exception of doing so before God in prayer) seems more like an act of worship or submission than remaining upright.

Fireinfolding said:

If I was asked to take a knee while the athem played I think I would have a problem with doing that (personally) because I dont even see it as a form of protest but of worship in most cases. Since the bowing of the knee before a thing (with perhaps the exception of doing so before God in prayer) seems more like an act of worship or submission than remaining upright.

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I would sit, and I have sat. Kaepernick started this whole thing by sitting but then after a long conversation with a veteran who told him that kneeling would be a good compromise as it would be more respectful than sitting but still not the same as standing, he started kneeling. I wish he continued to sit.

I have a problem these days in standing for the anthem or the flag. I will either just sit or I will leave and go to the bathroom or get some food or do something else that's much more useful than worshiping an idol.

[..

ArmenianJohn said:

Oh I have evidence it's just that it's anecdotal. I'm white and I'm around a ton of white people and I know when they're being racist and it's clear that they're angry because it's Kaepernick being black and kneeling rather than simply because he's kneeling.

I'll stop thinking the worst of people when those people give me evidence to the contrary. They're a bunch of ignorant racists who think they're fooling me and others.

I think your disconnect is in that you're Canadian and this is happening in America, not Canada. Unless recently the Argos were kneeling during "O Canada", maybe they are taking up for first nations peoples' right? Yeah, like that would ever happen! Canada is the best country in the world at fooling itself into thinking they don't have a racism problem when they're one of the worst! Worse than the USA!

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I have plenty of anecdotal evidence too that racism is something that most people I know have very little tolerance for.
It doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist. Of course it does. Canadians are well aware of it. It is taught in Canadian high school history books. To be on guard is part of workplace training in many workplace.
That doesn't mean that Americans, or Canadians, need to be accommodating of twits of any color who disrespect their countries, or another countries flags and symbols.

I feel exactly the same for the Montreal Canadian ignoramuses who booed the American flag at a hockey game to show their contempt of Bush.
And hockey in Canada is pretty whitewashed. It has nothing to do with Canadien fans being black, because they are not black, by and large.
People doing uncouth things ought to be called out for it by everybody. It is just plain cowardice to give somebody a pass for being uncouth just because he happens to be black and you are white.

ArmenianJohn said:

Oh I have evidence it's just that it's anecdotal. I'm white and I'm around a ton of white people and I know when they're being racist and it's clear that they're angry because it's Kaepernick being black and kneeling rather than simply because he's kneeling.

I'll stop thinking the worst of people when those people give me evidence to the contrary. They're a bunch of ignorant racists who think they're fooling me and others.

I think your disconnect is in that you're Canadian and this is happening in America, not Canada. Unless recently the Argos were kneeling during "O Canada", maybe they are taking up for first nations peoples' right? Yeah, like that would ever happen! Canada is the best country in the world at fooling itself into thinking they don't have a racism problem when they're one of the worst! Worse than the USA!

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I have plenty of anecdotal evidence too that racism is something that most people I know have very little tolerance for.
It doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist. Of course it does. Canadians are well aware of it. It is taught in Canadian high school history books. To be on guard is part of workplace training in many workplace.
That doesn't mean that Americans, or Canadians, need to be accommodating of twits of any color who disrespect their countries, or another countries flags and symbols.

I feel exactly the same for the Montreal Canadian ignoramuses who booed the American flag at a hockey game to show their contempt of Bush.
And hockey in Canada is pretty whitewashed. It has nothing to do with Canadien fans being black, because they are not black, by and large.
People doing uncouth things ought to be called out for it by everybody. It is just plain cowardice to give somebody a pass for being uncouth just because he happens to be black and you are white.

Yekcidmij said:

(4) If "pretty much the whole country" disrespects the flag, then why think those kneeling are sending a message? If what they're doing isnt really abnormal, maybe they arne't really sending any message? (of course, by being publicly controversial, they seem to think most people generally respect the flag).. . . . ..

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Because THEY SAY they are trying to send a message, of course . . . . and so many don't want to hear the message. People DISRESPECT the KNEELERS by saying kneeling is being disrespectful. Kneeling isn't disrespectful when you propose to your future wife, nor when you pray, nor when you go through the ceremony of being knighted. In that respect, it is different from, say, a raised fist.

ArmenianJohn said:

I would sit, and I have sat. Kaepernick started this whole thing by sitting but then after a long conversation with a veteran who told him that kneeling would be a good compromise as it would be more respectful than sitting but still not the same as standing, he started kneeling. I wish he continued to sit.

I have a problem these days in standing for the anthem or the flag. I will either just sit or I will leave and go to the bathroom or get some food or do something else that's much more useful than worshiping an idol.

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I see the knee as falling down and worshiping moreso, even if its at a song before an image

Daniel 3:5 That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:

Kneel before Zod stuff


Like a pansy move before a dictator, or a slaves position, which makes me cringe when I see a black man trying to stand for something by taking a knee to do it instead

Fireinfolding said:

I see the knee as falling down and worshiping moreso, even if its at a song before an image

Daniel 3:5 That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:

Kneel before Zod stuff

Like a pansy move before a dictator, or a slaves position, which makes me cringe when I see a black man trying to stand for something by taking a knee to do it instead

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Well, mostly the opposition to kneelers don't accuse them of worshipping the flag. Nor do the kneelers claim to be worshipping the flag. So I would let that angle fade away.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

Well, mostly the opposition to kneelers don't accuse them of worshipping the flag. Nor do the kneelers claim to be worshipping the flag. So I would let that angle fade away.

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Ofcourse not, pressure to take the knee could be coming from elsewhere, and for some other reason altogether, even a political wing to be used for various reasons to instigate (or provoke) their fans (who can be guilty of idolizing them) to pay attention to their moves for an agenda of some sort.

Allie Short said:

Keep in mind that a lot of flag code ISN’T followed anyway! Flags are not supposed to be worn, used in advertising, as part of costumes, on things you’ll throw away (napkins, tissues, etc), or held horizontally. Is it right to criticize those who kneel when pretty much the whole country ‘disrespects’ the flag anyway? Not judging your views, just curious!

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You know, it offends me deeply that they did not consider how it would affect the fans. I am offended by many things that have happened since the creation of man but I don't live my life by the mistakes of my ancestors. I am more offended about prayer being banned in public schools and buildings, the ten commandments can no longer be displayed because it offended some non believer....what about my offense. I am offended that merchants refuse to say Merry Christmas because someone got offended....but hey who am I. I am offended that an NFL player got fined and penalized for kneeling and praying at a game yet actions that bring about so much discontent and division are to be tolerated as a freedom of speech. Awe why bring football into a Christian forum it doesn't benefit my spirit one way or the other.

ArmenianJohn said:

I would sit, and I have sat. Kaepernick started this whole thing by sitting but then after a long conversation with a veteran who told him that kneeling would be a good compromise as it would be more respectful than sitting but still not the same as standing, he started kneeling. I wish he continued to sit.

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Thank for sharing that.

ArmenianJohn said:

I have a problem these days in standing for the anthem or the flag. I will either just sit or I will leave and go to the bathroom or get some food or do something else that's much more useful than worshiping an idol.

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There are times when I just got up and left, choosing to avoid all of the angry looks and whispers as to why I'm not standing during the anthem. I knew a vet who went to Vietnam, who also refused to stand for the national anthem, and he told me once that I get angry looks because I'm not standing like a faithful and obedient servant and paying my homage to the idols of Americanism. He was from the Ojibwe Nation and he liked to make it clear that he didn't serve in the military because he was an American or that he loved this country. He said he served to help protect his ancestral homeland as his own ancestors once did. He liked to make his animosity toward this country quite clear. He walked on a couple of years ago and I miss him. He was a very honorable man with a strong warrior spirit.

Fireinfolding said:

Ofcourse not, pressure to take the knee could be coming from elsewhere, and for some other reason altogether, even a political wing to be used for various reasons to instigate (or provoke) their fans (who can be guilty of idolizing them) to pay attention to their moves for an agenda of some sort.

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I think I know what their agenda is. They wish to promote pushback against racism in police forces. If you like I can tell you where I learned their agenda . . .

Heart2Soul said:

I am more offended about prayer being banned in public schools and buildings, the ten commandments can no longer be displayed because it offended some non believer....what about my offense.

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The United States of America isn't a Christian nation nor has it ever been one. Christianity and Christian should not be endorsed or promoted in public schools or in government buildings.

Christianity is just one religion practiced in this country and it shouldn't be given special privileges that non-Christian religions could be denied the right to display their own religious symbols.

Heart2Soul said:

I am offended that merchants refuse to say Merry Christmas because someone got offended....but hey who am I.

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There are other holidays (some listed here) around the time of the Christian Christmas that deserve to be recognized and not pushed aside to glorify the celebration of Christ Mass, which in itself has pagan roots in many of its own traditional rituals. I'm personally not offended by 'Happy Holidays' because I recognize the importance of these other holidays to the people who celebrate them. I'm not offended by 'Merry Christmas' either although I don't generally celebrate the holiday myself. However, I will admit that the whole (Christian) parents lying to their children about Santa Claus really annoys me.

Heart2Soul said:

I am offended that an NFL player got fined and penalized for kneeling and praying at a game yet actions that bring about so much discontent and division are to be tolerated as a freedom of speech. Awe why bring football into a Christian forum it doesn't benefit my spirit one way or the other.

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Although Tim Tebow had the right to kneel and pray as he did, he still made a spectacle of himself and the Christian faith, not to mention that he seemed to have forgotten about Matthew 6:5-6.