One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

Danthemailman said:

The demons believe (mental assent) that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven, lack of obedience to Christ and continuous evil works.

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It it not an "either - or" argument. That fact is the demons do not believe AND they do not obey. Your reductionist claim focuses on the former while negating the latter.

Danthemailman said:

Not exactly. Choosing to believe is an act of obedience, yet belief is belief and obedience which follows is works.

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Negative; choosing to obey is also an act of obedience as one always has the choice of whether or not to obey God. Again, you are making an either - or argument when in fact it is both.

Danthemailman said:

To believe is to trust in Jesus for salvation and to obey Him afterwards is works and we are not saved by works (Romans 4:5-6). John 3:16 correctly states those who believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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If your were aware of the Greek verb tenses in Jn 3:16, you would know that the word for "believe" in this verse is pisteuōn which is a present tense participle. Therefore one must be "believing" in order to have eternal life. Belief in this verse does not refer to a past moment of belief as when one first trusted in Jesus for salvation as you claim. The use of the present tense Greek instead dictates that the action of belief must be ongoing and continuous - hence believing.

Danthemailman said:

So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commands and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him

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Again you frame belief in the past tense only. If that were indeed true then the Greek word "pisteuo" would only exist in the aorist tense (past action) only. Such is not the case as belief in the Greek is described in both the past AND present tenses. Please study the different Greek verb tenses if you are so inclined.

Danthemailman said:

In John 3:36, "He that believes on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON". In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, obeying the Son here does not mean salvation by works, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe on the Son. The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Please be aware that whenever the KJV has "th" endings, it is the equivalent to "ing" endings in English. That is consistent with what I wrote earlier regarding the present tense Greek verb regarding what it means to believe. Therefore, one must be "believing" in order to have eternal life. Consequently if a believer for whatever reason, ceases to believe, he or she no longer possesses eternal life. Obey in Heb 5:9 is also a present tense verb. Therefore it cannot refer to an act of obedience in the past as in when one initially obeyed and trusted in Jesus for salvation. One must be "obeying" in order to have eternal salvation. If a believer is no longer obeying God, salvation is not assured of.

The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message.

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If you did even a simple word study, you would find that apeitheo can mean both belief or obedience depending upon context. For example, "But the Jews who did not believe (apeithēsantes) stirred up and embittered the minds of the Gentiles against their brothers" (Acts 14:2). "but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey (apeithousi) the truth but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury" (Rom 2:8).

Danthemailman said:

Believe, as in the 4th soil, in which the seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." So where is the fruit from the rocky soil? The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Again, temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief.

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Jesus was speaking to people who were agrarian and lived off the land. In their understanding, they knew that something that has no root still has the potential to grow. They knew that when a seed germinates it has no root but it has the potential to grow a root given adequate moisture and growing conditions. They understood that "believe for a while" is like a germinated seed. However it had no root because in "time of testing" it failed to thrive and developed no root. Likewise, when we first believe, the seed of belief germinates within our hearts. That genuine belief however can wilt and wither away given inadequate growing conditions.

Danthemailman said:

Do you agree that shallow, temporary belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief? 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

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Again you make a hasty generalization which is a logical fallacy. It is not logical to conclude that "some" means "all." Just because some were never believers does not entail that all were never believers. It is impossible for unbelievers to depart/apostatize from the faith since they were never a part of the faith to begin with. One cannot depart from something that he was never a part of. Only believers can apostatize.

Danthemailman said:

Show me the words "lost salvation" in scripture.

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You are making one of the weakest forms of argumentation known as an argument from silence. I could also say show me where it's morally wrong to have an abortion since the word abortion in not in the Bible. As I wrote earlier, if you believe that you or any other saint cannot lose your salvation, then feel free to take the mark of the beast.

redleghunter said:

The text does not say so, but if this comforts your theology, so be it.

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Would you like to explain how someone is found without repentance? If that were the case, everyone in the world would be found and saved wouldn't they? Now that would be comforting.

SBC said:

THIS ONLY APPLIES to the COMMITTED FAITHFUL.
The committed FAITHFUL, can NEVER FALL from FAITH...
Precisely BECAUSE -
A man in commitment, IS IN FACT giving God the Authority for HIS POWER to KEEP them FOREVER in FAITHFULNESS to God Only.

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Your statement is true however the faithful one can potentially become UNCOMMITTED and thus unfaithful.

mark kennedy said:

Obedience, Obedient, Obey: (G5219 - hypakouō) to listen, to harken of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter). (Vine’s Dictionary)
We know from Scripture that: ‘the winds and the sea obey G5219 him!’, same word (Matt. 8:27). That demons obey him (Mark 1:27). We know that we are not to allow sin to reign in our mortal bodies, so that we obey G5219, the lusts thereof (Romans 6:12-16). So what does it really mean to be obedient to the faith? Obedience in this passage simply means get up and answer the door:
And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, G5219 named Rhoda. (Acts 12:13)

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So you mean to say that "obey" in Heb 5:9 means to "get up and answer the door?" If so, the verse could be worded as "...and once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who "get up an answer the door." Does that really make sense to you? Did you mean answer the door as in when Christ knocks of the door of someone's heart asking him to repent so Jesus can come in as in Rev 3:19-20? That verse is written to believers; not unbelievers as it is a rebuke to the Laodicean church. So that being the case, obedience and answering the door is required of believers; not unbelievers.
The scriptures instruct children to obey their parents and slaves to obey their masters. This requires both cognitive acknowledgment and assent to the instruction of parents and masters followed by behavioral cooperation. One cannot claim to obey without any corresponding compliance.
Secondly, if "get up and answer the door" is the meaning of obey in Heb 5:9 then getting up and continually answering the door would be the correct interpretation, as hypakouousin is a present tense participle which denotes continual action. The action of repeatedly answering the door does not make sense to me.

mark kennedy said:

Were these people saved?
Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” (Luke 15:1-2)
The text has a context and the context is clear the parables that followed were about the tax collectors and sinners. At the time of the parable are they saved and what is your reasoning that they were or were not?
Now we know that they had to be drawn by the Father, some would describe this as being called. Indeed many are called and few are chosen. In the parable of the sower they all receive the same seed on different soils. Were the ones who believed early on only to fall away because of persecution saved and then lost? All we know about the tax collectors and sinners is that they came to listen, so if they are not saved when Jesus starts the parable then neither was the little lost lamb.
Feel free to answer as you see fit, I await your response.

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You seemed to be confusing exactly to whom this parable is referring to. The teaching of this parable is not primarily directed to the tax collectors and the sinners. It is rather a rebuke to the Pharisees who were God's chosen flock but were critical of Jesus, a fellow Jew, who ate with them (v.2). The parable is about the Pharisees and not the tax collectors/sinners. The Pharisees who were God's chosen people are the ones who need to repent. This parable has a double application as believers today become his sheep. Upon regeneration by the Spirit we are his flock.

Oldmantook said:

So you mean to say that "obey" in Heb 5:9 means to "get up and answer the door?" If so, the verse could be worded as "...and once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who "get up an answer the door." Does that really make sense to you? Did you mean answer the door as in when Christ knocks of the door of someone's heart asking him to repent so Jesus can come in as in Rev 3:19-20? That verse is written to believers; not unbelievers as it is a rebuke to the Laodicean church. So that being the case, obedience and answering the door is required of believers; not unbelievers.

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That's not what I said, I said it was the idea behind the word and how it was used literally once. The rest of the passages clearly mean obey, such as the weather and demons. It is used of believers, it's also used of demons who obey him not out of love or grace, but the authority of his name. There is nothing intrinsic in this word that means it applies to believers only, but then again depending on the context it might.

The scriptures instruct children to obey their parents and slaves to obey their masters. This requires both cognitive acknowledgment and assent to the instruction of parents and masters followed by behavioral cooperation. One cannot claim to obey without any corresponding compliance.

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Don't forget slaves obey your masters, not just when they are watching you as eyepleasers, but as unto the Lord. The command is to subject yourselves one to another in the fear of the Lord. In obedience to this command the masters are required to submit to the slaves as well.

Secondly, if "get up and answer the door" is the meaning of obey in Heb 5:9 then getting up and continually answering the door would be the correct interpretation, as hypakouousin is a present tense participle which denotes continual action. The action of repeatedly answering the door does not make sense to me.

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You hear the knock, you heed the call, you answer the door. Implied here is, as a porter, who has a duty to answer the door. I never said there were repeated knocks and answers, I never suggested anything of the sort. I've been clear there is a time of decision, depending on the condition of your heart, you will either go onto perdition or you will bear fruit. There is a difference between being called and being chosen, once chosen you are his forever.

You seemed to be confusing exactly to whom this parable is referring to. The teaching of this parable is not primarily directed to the tax collectors and the sinners. It is rather a rebuke to the Pharisees who were God's chosen flock but were critical of Jesus, a fellow Jew, who ate with them (v.2). The parable is about the Pharisees and not the tax collectors/sinners. The Pharisees who were God's chosen people are the ones who need to repent. This parable has a double application as believers today become his sheep. Upon regeneration by the Spirit we are his flock.

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I'm not confused at all, the complaint was about the sinners and publicans. Jesus said I have not come to call the righteous to repentance but sinners.

There are none righteous, therefor none who do not need repentance. There are some that believe themselves to be righteous, who do not repent and go onto perdition. There are those who say they see, which makes them blind. At the beginning of John's Gospel and the end of Luke's two book history of the church they say pretty much the same thing:

None so blind as those who will not see, they did not see, hear or head the knock at the door, the call to faith. Sinners and publicans did, as did the Gentiles:

In the gospel you are called to faith, if you fall away you fall away from the faith as the writer of Hebrews warns those who were in danger of going back to Judaism. To heed the call to faith is obedience and unless the seed, which is the word of God, is somehow extinguished in your heart it will bear fruit.

The lost little lamb is all of us, the prodigal son is likewise, the lost sinner. The lamb was saved, the prodigal son repented. The Scribes and Pharisees by and large, never did.

Grace and peace,
Mark

mark kennedy said:

That's not what I said, I said it was the idea behind the word and how it was used literally once. The rest of the passages clearly mean obey, such as the weather and demons. It is used of believers, it's also used of demons who obey him not out of love or grace, but the authority of his name. There is nothing intrinsic in this word that means it applies to believers only, but then again depending on the context it might.

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So if I understand you correctly, you claim that Heb 5:9 doesn't apply to believers? Yes the winds and waves obey Jesus but Heb 5:9 is not directed to the winds and waves is it? It is clearly directed at those who are saved; it plainly states that eternal life is given to all who obey Him. That is the context so do you disagree - yes or no?

mark kennedy said:

Don't forget slaves obey your masters, not just when they are watching you as eyepleasers, but as unto the Lord. The command is to subject yourselves one to another in the fear of the Lord. In obedience to this command the masters are required to submit to the slaves as well.

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Yes, so your point is? Christian masters and Christian slaves are all subject to Jesus' commands/teachings - no exceptions. Obedience is required of all Christians is it not?

mark kennedy said:

You hear the knock, you heed the call, you answer the door. Implied here is, as a porter, who has a duty to answer the door. I never said there were repeated knocks and answers, I never suggested anything of the sort. I've been clear there is a time of decision, depending on the condition of your heart, you will either go onto perdition or you will bear fruit. There is a difference between being called and being chosen, once chosen you are his forever.

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Your unfamiliarity with the Greek verb tenses is apparent. You claim that there were never repeated knocks however the text does indeed say that. The word for "knocks" in Rev 3:20 is krouō| κρούω which is a present tense verb therefore properly translated as "knocking." In it's proper context, Jesus is knocking on the door of the Laodicean believer's heart - not the unbelievers heart. Unrepentant believers go to perdition.

mark kennedy said:

In the gospel you are called to faith, if you fall away you fall away from the faith as the writer of Hebrews warns those who were in danger of going back to Judaism. To heed the call to faith is obedience and unless the seed, which is the word of God, is somehow extinguished in your heart it will bear fruit.

The lost little lamb is all of us, the prodigal son is likewise, the lost sinner. The lamb was saved, the prodigal son repented. The Scribes and Pharisees by and large, never did.

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If I understand you correctly, you are stating that the lost sheep was never a believer - despite at one time belonging to the flock who need no repentance. I believe your interpretation goes against the plain meaning of the text as those who are needing no repentance can only refer to believers. Nevertheless, you go on to cite the example of the prodigal son which ironically, contradicts your held belief. Jesus repeats himself twice in this parable in Lk 15:24 & 32. We know that when Jesus repeats something, it is for emphasis and even likely the main point of his teaching. This is even more likely as in v.32 Jesus summarize/concludes his teaching with that verse. So exactly what did Jesus say in vs.24/32? Referring to the prodigal, Jesus described him as being "dead and alive again." We know that Jesus cannot be referring to physical death because the prodigal did not physically die in the story so Jesus meant spiritual death. The prodigal was spiritually alive when he abided in his father's house but decided to waste his inheritance and live a life of habitual sin thus becoming spiritually dead. Also note that the prodigal son was made alive AGAIN. How is someone made alive again? When we come to Christ and are saved, we are made alive in Christ initially/first time. The only way for someone to be made alive again is for someone to initially become a believer. Then like the prodigal waste his gift salvation/inheritance and engage in habitual sin thus becoming spiritually dead like the prodigal. Then like the prodigal realize his need for repentance; forgiveness and return to the Father - thus being made alive AGAIN. Thus Jesus taught that a believer can become spiritually dead and no longer saved but upon repentance and seeking forgiveness be restored to the Father and be made alive again. I prefer to believe the words of Jesus.

Oldmantook said:

So if I understand you correctly, you claim that Heb 5:9 doesn't apply to believers? Yes the winds and waves obey Jesus but Heb 5:9 is not directed to the winds and waves is it? It is clearly directed at those who are saved; it plainly states that eternal life is given to all who obey Him. That is the context so do you disagree - yes or no?

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You have a real problem with context here, first of all in Hebrews the emphasis is on the danger of falling away from the faith by returning to a religion of works righteousness.
In Hebrews 2 we have a warning not to neglect the word that tells us Christ was made perfect through his sufferings and we are made perfect by trust in Christ. (Heb. 2:10-11). We are warned that our Sabbath rest is faith in Christ, (Heb. 3:8). That the works of righteousness required for salvation were complete before the foundation of the world (Heb. 4:3). That we are in danger of becoming dull of hearing:


We submit to one another in the fear of the Lord based on faith in Christ, made perfect by the things he suffered. What you have missed in this discussion is that obedience is based exclusively on justification by grace through Christ, apart from works. Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message, (Acts 10:43:44). Faith is an act of obedience, (John 7:38; Acts 16:31). This is the specific act of faith by which a sinner is justified before God (Rom. 3:22, 25; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; John 3:16-36; Acts 10:43; 16:31). What is more this passage directly ties the reception of the Holy Spirit with receiving the Holy Spirit which is the seal that guarantees our inheritance till the redemption of the purchased possession (Eph 1:13).

Yes, so your point is? Christian masters and Christian slaves are all subject to Jesus' commands/teachings - no exceptions. Obedience is required of all Christians is it not?

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Of course it is but was are saved for good works, not by them. Grace not only saves us but sanctifies us, apart from Christ we can do nothing and to make myself clear, your merit counts for nothing. If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.


A good working definition for grace is 'unmerited favor', Paul worked in the ministry field by grace alone and he is crystal clear on this point. The merits of Christian ministry are Christ's alone we can add nothing. James in speaking to believers who were obviously showing favoritism was simply telling them that this is not how saving faith works. He was outraged that a wealthy Christian could teach a poor Christian as inferior when they themselves apart from Christ are poor, pitiful, blind and naked. We will receive that full recompense of righteousness and be glorified forever based on Christ's merit.

Your unfamiliarity with the Greek verb tenses is apparent. You claim that there were never repeated knocks however the text does indeed say that. The word for "knocks" in Rev 3:20 is krouō| κρούω which is a present tense verb therefore properly translated as "knocking." In it's proper context, Jesus is knocking on the door of the Laodicean believer's heart - not the unbelievers heart. Unrepentant believers go to perdition.

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The Laodiceans were in danger of falling into the trap of succumbing to the condition of the heart that is led astray by the deceitfulness of riches. That being the case, they had not matured spiritually and therefore not bearing fruit which is the effect of the seed, the word of God, in the heart of the believer that is manifesting saving faith. By the way, after Jesus makes his scathing remarks concerning the Laodiceans, in the next chapter you see all the churches, represented by the lampstand (Menorah) blazing before the throne. The Laodiceans appear to have repented and went on to maturity.

If I understand you correctly, you are stating that the lost sheep was never a believer - despite at one time belonging to the flock who need no repentance. I believe your interpretation goes against the plain meaning of the text as those who are needing no repentance can only refer to believers. Nevertheless, you go on to cite the example of the prodigal son which ironically, contradicts your held belief. Jesus repeats himself twice in this parable in Lk 15:24 & 32.

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The prodigal son was dead, now he is alive, this is perfectly consistent with Paul's common reference to being dead to sin, alive to God in Christ. Before the prodigal son repented he was dead in sin, only when he repented was he alive. His brother, who had always obeyed his father refused to go into the celebration had never enjoyed such a celebration since he had never failed to obey. This creates a major theological issue, there are none righteous, no not one:

We know that when Jesus repeats something, it is for emphasis and even likely the main point of his teaching. This is even more likely as in v.32 Jesus summarize/concludes his teaching with that verse. So exactly what did Jesus say in vs.24/32? Referring to the prodigal, Jesus described him as being "dead and alive again." We know that Jesus cannot be referring to physical death because the prodigal did not physically die in the story so Jesus meant spiritual death.

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I was enjoying your exposition until here:

The prodigal was spiritually alive when he abided in his father's house but decided to waste his inheritance and live a life of habitual sin thus becoming spiritually dead. Also note that the prodigal son was made alive AGAIN. How is someone made alive again? When we come to Christ and are saved, we are made alive in Christ initially/first time. The only way for someone to be made alive again is for someone to initially become a believer. Then like the prodigal waste his gift salvation/inheritance and engage in habitual sin thus becoming spiritually dead like the prodigal. Then like the prodigal realize his need for repentance; forgiveness and return to the Father - thus being made alive AGAIN. Thus Jesus taught that a believer can become spiritually dead and no longer saved but upon repentance and seeking forgiveness be restored to the Father and be made alive again. I prefer to believe the words of Jesus.

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You are not made a alive twice, conversion, being born again, being enlightened to the gospel through the experience of the manifestation in your heart is a one time event. If he was ever enlightened concerning the righteousness of God in Christ and then departed, he could not have been restored to repentance:

There is no again with regards to salvation, if you are saved you will stay saved. If you depart you were never his:

Once again, the subject of eternal security is meaningless apart from the doctrine of justification by grace through faith, alone.

Why were these ministers rejected at the great white throne judgment?

Even the very gifts of the Holy Spirit are described as 'grace', Charisma is the word and it means 'grace', pure and simple. The Church both as the Body of Christ and the Temple of the Holy Spirit is built up by grace alone since no other principle or word is ever attached to it in the writings of Paul on the subject of the gifts. That grace works in us and through us but could we be so profane in our infantile wretchedness to believe for a second that we merit anything? God forbid!

Grace and peace,
Mark

mark kennedy said:

You have a real problem with context here, first of all in Hebrews the emphasis is on the danger of falling away from the faith by returning to a religion of works righteousness.
In Hebrews 2 we have a warning not to neglect the word that tells us Christ was made perfect through his sufferings and we are made perfect by trust in Christ. (Heb. 2:10-11). We are warned that our Sabbath rest is faith in Christ, (Heb. 3:8). That the works of righteousness required for salvation were complete before the foundation of the world (Heb. 4:3). That we are in danger of becoming dull of hearing:
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. (Heb. 5:9-11)

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Indeed the Hebrew believers were in danger of falling away - due to disobedience. Does it really matter what the nature of that disobedience was? Whether it be disobedience by returning to works of the law or by falling to sin in some other area - disobedience is still disobedience. You go to great lengths to redefine obedience by restricting its meaning to only certain areas of disobedience in order to fit your soteriology. Christians are called to obey God in all areas of life. That is why if you read further in Hebrews, they are warned to be holy, for without holiness no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14). In Heb 12:16 the Hebrews are warned against sexual immorality. Thus for you to restrict obedience or rather the lack of obedience, only to the sin of works righteousness is totally without merit as these scriptures prove otherwise.

mark kennedy said:

We submit to one another in the fear of the Lord based on faith in Christ, made perfect by the things he suffered. What you have missed in this discussion is that obedience is based exclusively on justification by grace through Christ, apart from works. Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message, (Acts 10:43:44). Faith is an act of obedience, (John 7:38; Acts 16:31). This is the specific act of faith by which a sinner is justified before God (Rom. 3:22, 25; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; John 3:16-36; Acts 10:43; 16:31). What is more this passage directly ties the reception of the Holy Spirit with receiving the Holy Spirit which is the seal that guarantees our inheritance till the redemption of the purchased possession (Eph 1:13).

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I'm going to repeat my counterpoint for the last time as you keep overlooking this point that I already made that the word "obey" in Heb 5:9 is in the present tense Greek therefore read as "obeying." Therefore one is not justified by a single act of obedience as when one first trusts in Christ for salvation. Rather, one must be "obeying" - continuous action - in order to have eternal life. Jn 7:38 and Jn 3:16 which you cited also have the word "believe" which is a present tense Greek verb. Therefore one must go on "believing" in order to have eternal life. If a Christians stops believing and/or stop obeying, eternal life is forfeited. I suggest you study NT Greek to familiarize yourself with it in order to handle the Word more accurately.

mark kennedy said:

“... in order that in the coming ages [future] he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus [past]. For it is by grace you have been saved [past], through faith [present] -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works [future] , which God prepared in advance for us to do [past].” (Ephesians 2:7-10 NIV)[/QUOTE
Again, so your point is? I have no problem with your interpretation of this verse. However I don't think I need to point out to you that salvation as described in the scriptures is not only referred to as a past event but a present tense and future event as well. We are commanded to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. So to restrict our salvific status to the past only, betrays the rest of the scriptures which describe otherwise. Genuine faith and being justified by it is not based on faith alone as Js 2:24 states that one is JUSTIFIED by WORKS and not by FAITH ALONE. Works while not the cause of our salvation is the outward evidence of our inward faith. Faith without works is DEAD (Js 2:17).

mark kennedy said:

The prodigal son was dead, now he is alive, this is perfectly consistent with Paul's common reference to being dead to sin, alive to God in Christ. Before the prodigal son repented he was dead in sin, only when he repented was he alive. His brother, who had always obeyed his father refused to go into the celebration had never enjoyed such a celebration since he had never failed to obey. This creates a major theological issue, there are none righteous, no not one:

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference. (Rom. 3:21-22)

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Sorry but your reply is totally inadequate as you fail to explain how the prodigal (or anyone else for that matter) can be made alive AGAIN. The text does not merely say that the prodigal was made alive but that he was made alive again, so in essence you are barking up the wrong tree and have avoided dealing with the adjective "again."

mark kennedy said:

You are not made a alive twice, conversion, being born again, being enlightened to the gospel through the experience of the manifestation in your heart is a one time event. If he was ever enlightened concerning the righteousness of God in Christ and then departed, he could not have been restored to repentance:

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Again, you have failed to explain what made "alive again" means. Jesus plainly stated that the prodigal was made alive again. Yet you claim "you are not made alive again." You have certainly not explained what that phrase means so in my opinion it remains problematic for you. As I stated earlier, I prefer to believe the words of Jesus.

mark kennedy said:

There is no again with regards to salvation, if you are saved you will stay saved. If you depart you were never his:

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Your err in that you commit a logical fallacy known as a hasty generalization. It is true that SOME who depart were never his but it is illogical to then conclude that ALL who depart were never his. That would be like saying since chickens lay brown eggs (true), all chickens lay brown eggs (false).

mark kennedy said:

Why were these ministers rejected at the great white throne judgment?
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-23)

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Are you claiming that these ministers were never believers? Then you would have to explain how they prophesied, cast out demons and performed miracles "in your name." Only believers are given the spiritual authority to do these things in Jesus' names. Unbelievers who attempt to represent Jesus in the same fashion such as the sons of Sceva incur negative consequences. Jesus himself did not state that these were unbelievers. Instead he replied that those who enter the kingdom of heaven are those who DO THE WILL of the Father. He then provides the explanation of why he told them to depart from him because they are "evildoers." It goes without saying that evildoers do not do the will of God. So even though these believers did the supernatural in Jesus' name, they are still told to depart because they were evildoers who practiced sin/lawlessness.

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Oldmantook said:

Your statement is true however the faithful one can potentially become UNCOMMITTED and thus unfaithful.

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No.

Having belief is one thing -
....Belief is a process. It simple means, from the beginning of one hearing ABOUT God; to believe what
....they ARE hearing.

....Children hearing for the first time, SIMPLY believe, BECAUSE they TRUST, the one (typically a ....parent)
....who is either TELLING them, or TAKING them, to someone To Hear.
....ie, Children will TRUST who their parents TRUST.
....Children can not "reason" this process, but it is the effect.
....And it is WHY Jesus said, to come to Him, as a Child. Children purely TRUST, even when they do not
....understand.

....Adults on the other hand, hearing for the first time, Doubt, wonder, challenge, LOOK for what does
....not make sense, and dwell and focus on what they do not understand.

...The Disciples are our example. They heard, they doubted, they wondered, they challenged.....and
...the minute they SAW, a miracle, THEY BELIEVED. Then they repeated the process, over and over
...for ever new thing they HEARD, they doubted, etc. THEN SAW, what Jesus said, come to pass, THEN
...BELIEVED.

....And why Jesus said; If you can not Believe Him, Believe His works. Because that leads by default,
....Believing IN Him.

....HEARING to believe, is an adults greatest challenge, always has been, for anything they do not
....understand.
....SEEING to believe, is an adults greatest "comfort" zone, of confidence in belief.

....Now observe our example, the Disciples. 11 Kept following. 1 could not believe Jesus, could not
....believe His works, and DEFLECTED away FROM Jesus; word, works and Jesus Himself, even to the
...point of Betraying Jesus, ie going AGAINST Him.

....THIS IS THE KEY, from an individuals choice to BELIEF....to HAVING FAITH.
....Meaning; The process goes like this:
....God provides His Word. Available to be HEARD and READ.
....Men CHOOSE, to hear (or read), and decide IF they BELIEVE what they are hearing/reading.
....Every man that IS Hearing/Reading, AND BELIEVING....
....IS BEING enlightened, BY the Word of God,
....THIS IS, the mans BEGINNING of FAITH.
....IOW - the mans BELIEF, is changing INTO FAITH.

....IF the man Continues Following, Hearing, Reading, His FAITH is growing.
....IF at ANY TIME, for ANY REASON, the man STOPS BELIEVING, "HE HAS LOST FAITH".

....To challenge and question is one thing, and normal behavior of a man.
....To STOP following, and Believing, IS another thing. It IS A LOSS OF FAITH.

....11 Disciples challenged, wondered, questioned...BUT DID NOT LOSE FAITH;
....THEY KEPT following, believing, hearing.
....IOW - while their confidence in THEMSELVES faltered at times, IN JESUS, it did NOT falter.
....1 Disciple DID lose confidence and Belief and Faith IN JESUS, and walked away.
....He absolutely DID LOSE FAITH.

Now to your point -
....Of this whole process, not once did I mention, ANYONE "committing", TO God, To Christ Jesus, THEIR "Faith-FULLNESS" to Him only.

FAITHFULNESS - ie FAITH FULLNESS, requires a mans OATH. Let your decision (election) be SURE, that to God/Christ, ONLY, You Are, with YOUR WORD, committing yourself to Believe and Faith to HIM ONLY.

1 Pet 1
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1 Thes 1
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

This is a HUGE, election oath, promise, for a man to make, and does require diligence, and knowing what you Are committing to.

(also, IMO, NOT taught or stressed enough in the Churches )

I have known people, who have, before witnesses of the Church congregation, given their OATH, for all kinds of stupid "reasons", from wanting to impress a teen girl, to hoping to advance their personal business with Church members as potential clients.

HOWEVER - while the congregation may be fooled - God is NOT FOOLED. God KNOWS a the thoughts in a mans heart. And IF a man is confessing, without TRUE BELIEF IN HIS HEART; The congregation may call Him, Baptized with Holy Spirit. He may called Himself, Saved and Born Again....but He is not!

What he has in fact done...IS LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT!

And I have heard people claim - THEY WERE Baptized with the Holy Spirit, eh went to Church for 30 years, participated in all the Church stuff, and NOW, have decided, they DO NOT BELIEVE.

NOT POSSIBLE! No matter WHAT THEY CLAIM.

Because what they ARE claiming is THEY FOOLED GOD. Impossible!

1 Cor 28
[9] ....for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

For a man WHO, commits to God, in TRUE BELIEF in his heart; He has just committed his LIFE to Gods POWER to KEEP the man forever.

God IS Faithful, and shall FOREVER KEEP the mans Faith IN God, and NOTHING can undermine God or Trump His POWER, that is IN the man. And Gods Spirit IN a man, is a God who can NOT Stand Against Himself.

1 John 4
[4] Ye are of God.... because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Mark 3
[24] And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
[25] And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.


So, NO, a faith-FULLY committed man can not become "un-committed".
Any one who claims that for themselves, was never committed in the first place.

God Bless,
SBC

Oldmantook said:

Indeed the Hebrew believers were in danger of falling away - due to disobedience. Does it really matter what the nature of that disobedience was? Whether it be disobedience by returning to works of the law or by falling to sin in some other area - disobedience is still disobedience. You go to great lengths to redefine obedience by restricting its meaning to only certain areas of disobedience in order to fit your soteriology. Christians are called to obey God in all areas of life. That is why if you read further in Hebrews, they are warned to be holy, for without holiness no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14). In Heb 12:16 the Hebrews are warned against sexual immorality. Thus for you to restrict obedience or rather the lack of obedience, only to the sin of works righteousness is totally without merit as these scriptures prove otherwise.

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I'm not arguing against obedience to the faith, I'm saying it's by grace through faith. More importantly, I'm arguing once saved always saved but that many who hear and understand in their hearts, fall away from the faith. Paul, in his extensive discussion of justification by grace through faith makes obedience the first and last word on the matter:

What else do we see here, there's grace, apostleship (a gift of grace), and the prophetic Scriptures (seed), which is the commandment (singular not plural) of everlasting God. Hebrews warns of several dangers of falling away from the faith, at the heart of the emphasis and throughout the book, the danger is abandoning the substance for the shadow. The writer of Hebrews is crystal clear if they abandon Christ and return to a works righteousness, they cannot be restored to repentance calling it impossible. You have neglected the key doctrine here, justification by grace through faith.

I'm going to repeat my counterpoint for the last time as you keep overlooking this point that I already made that the word "obey" in Heb 5:9 is in the present tense Greek therefore read as "obeying." Therefore one is not justified by a single act of obedience as when one first trusts in Christ for salvation. Rather, one must be "obeying" - continuous action - in order to have eternal life. Jn 7:38 and Jn 3:16 which you cited also have the word "believe" which is a present tense Greek verb. Therefore one must go on "believing" in order to have eternal life. If a Christians stops believing and/or stop obeying, eternal life is forfeited. I suggest you study NT Greek to familiarize yourself with it in order to handle the Word more accurately.

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Indeed, to abandon faith is to abandon Christ, I don't need a lexicon to understand that. Like the parable of the soils the word can be rejected and never go on to saving faith. The tense can be past, present or future depending on the context and the construction but the faith is the 'present' truth (2 Peter 1:12), not a past easy believism that can be forgotten. The same revelation, commandment, word that justifies you, sanctifies you and brings you to the obedience of the faith. You must be born again of incorruptible seed, sanctified by the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, built up in your faith that build up the body of Christ by means of God's gifts of grace. By that process that begins and ends with grace you bear fruit to the glory of God.

Again, so your point is? I have no problem with your interpretation of this verse. However I don't think I need to point out to you that salvation as described in the scriptures is not only referred to as a past event but a present tense and future event as well. We are commanded to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. So to restrict our salvific status to the past only, betrays the rest of the scriptures which describe otherwise. Genuine faith and being justified by it is not based on faith alone as Js 2:24 states that one is JUSTIFIED by WORKS and not by FAITH ALONE. Works while not the cause of our salvation is the outward evidence of our inward faith. Faith without works is DEAD (Js 2:17).

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In the future God will show ‘the incomparable riches of his grace’ the kindness of Jesus Christ (past). You were saved by grace (past), through faith (present), not created by good works but for God works in Christ (future), which God has prepared for us (past), even from before the foundation of the world. Semantics, breaking down of the tense of a word, is relevant to the construction of the word. Justification by grace through faith is past, present and future. It transcends the life of the believer and redemptive history, there never was another way, it was just more fully revealed in the New Testament, the fullest and final revelation being in Christ, the author and finisher of our salvation.

James 2 is dealing with the same problem Paul was in 1 Corinthians 11, the rich were mistreating the poor. These believers were in danger, were being tempted, to exalt in their riches and were humiliating their brothers in Christ. What could happen as a result is the word in their hearts could wither, 'the sun risen with a burning heat' (James 1:11), just like the seed in the parable of the soils. As many times as I've been reminded that faith without works is dead, I don't recall anyone including you, reminding me what works James was referring to. They were not bearing fruit:

Before you quote James 2:17 I suggest you consider the proceeding verses in the chapter to discern was those works of grace actually are:

If you are saved by grace you have been shown mercy, you must be merciful. If you have been forgiven you must forgive. If you come to God a wretched, dirty, desperate sinner you must be gracious, especially to people of faith, even if they are slaves. Paul's admonition warns that some of you are sick and some of you sleep. The people James is warning were not bearing fruit, he asks the question, is this even saving faith.

Sorry but your reply is totally inadequate as you fail to explain how the prodigal (or anyone else for that matter) can be made alive AGAIN. The text does not merely say that the prodigal was made alive but that he was made alive again, so in essence you are barking up the wrong tree and have avoided dealing with the adjective "again."

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You must be born AGAIN, the prodigal son is a figure of the lost because before that we all know God's divine attributes and eternal nature leaving us without excuse (Rom. 1:18-20). This isn't complicated, he was dead in sin but when he repented he was alive. That is a one time event and the Scriptures are crystal clear on that point. Now that is not to say a believer cannot be tempted, those addressed in the book of James and Corinthians certainly were. There are hazards, conditions of the heart, that can threaten the early convert or even the seasoned saint. But if that conversion is genuine salvation is forever, that believer will and must bear fruit, that is the promise of the gospel.

Your err in that you commit a logical fallacy known as a hasty generalization. It is true that SOME who depart were never his but it is illogical to then conclude that ALL who depart were never his. That would be like saying since chickens lay brown eggs (true), all chickens lay brown eggs (false).

Click to expand...

You left out this part:
Once again, the subject of eternal security is meaningless apart from the doctrine of justification by grace through faith, alone.

Why were these ministers rejected at the great white throne judgment?

God takes how you treat other believers personally. Serving Christ without ministering to the body of Christ is the hypocrisy of an evildoer. The love of God, shed abroad in our hearts is the love that builds up believers in their faith. It is by grace through faith and without those gifts of grace you are like a workman who showed up at the building of the temple of Solomon without his tools. Worthless to accomplish anything you are called to do.

Are you claiming that these ministers were never believers? Then you would have to explain how they prophesied, cast out demons and performed miracles "in your name." Only believers are given the spiritual authority to do these things in Jesus' names. Unbelievers who attempt to represent Jesus in the same fashion such as the sons of Sceva incur negative consequences. Jesus himself did not state that these were unbelievers. Instead he replied that those who enter the kingdom of heaven are those who DO THE WILL of the Father. He then provides the explanation of why he told them to depart from him because they are "evildoers." It goes without saying that evildoers do not do the will of God. So even though these believers did the supernatural in Jesus' name, they are still told to depart because they were evildoers who practiced sin/lawlessness.

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Had they been believers they would have recognized other believers when they were hungry, thirsty, in prison and friendless, and would have responded to them as they would Christ. They actually did respond to them as they had to Christ, with gross indifference. Judas cast out demons in Christ's name but Jesus said of him, one of you is a devil. Judas was already a child of perdition. Jesus called him and made him one of the twelve because ministers will always have to deal with this kind of treachery. False believers and false teachers will find their way into our ranks, looking for a way to turn a quick buck and make trouble for the saints. If a devil casts out a devil then it means his kingdom is finished, not that Judas or the host of the rejected were ever, remotely, the righteousness of God in Christ.

I'm not arguing against obedience to the faith, I'm telling you the means and the ends of faith.

Grace and peace,
Mark

This is really about assurance of salvation. Everyone else believes and hopes that they might be good enough to enter heaven. We don't as Christians. If you live your life of fear that at any moment you might slip or fall, and die, meaning that all the true belief you expressed in the Lord all your life, including the fruits and such, were all for nothing. Whoops, you messed up once and didn't have time to repent! Sorry buddy, you're done! Perhaps you can have one of your relatives offer a prayer on your behalf or give alms!

This is the same level as blasphemy in the Holy spirit, it doesn't mean everyone who says literally a bad word against the Holy Spirit is totally 100% forever unforgiven by God and can never be a Christian.

Also I think the above post is well written. I mean, we are dipping a little into election here, but that is a very very sore subject for many to discuss

Segaz said:

This is really about assurance of salvation. Everyone else believes and hopes that they might be good enough to enter heaven. We don't as Christians. If you live your life of fear that at any moment you might slip or fall, and die, meaning that all the true belief you expressed in the Lord all your life, including the fruits and such, were all for nothing. Whoops, you messed up once and didn't have time to repent! Sorry buddy, you're done! Perhaps you can have one of your relatives offer a prayer on your behalf or give alms!

This is the same level as blasphemy in the Holy spirit, it doesn't mean everyone who says literally a bad word against the Holy Spirit is totally 100% forever unforgiven by God and can never be a Christian.

Also I think the above post is well written. I mean, we are dipping a little into election here, but that is a very very sore subject for many to discuss

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It's not a difficult subject, a child could understand. You hear the word of God, the gospel of Jesus Christ, receive the ingrafted word, receive the Holy Spirit and you are saved forever. The question before us is whether or not once you are saved you can be lost, as a Calvinist I say there is no more a chance of that then Christ being cast out of the trinity.

SBC said:

Having belief is one thing -
....Belief is a process. It simple means, from the beginning of one hearing ABOUT God; to believe what
....they ARE hearing.

Click to expand...

Indeed belief is a process. So is salvation as salvation is referred to in the scriptures not only as a past tense event, but also in the present tense and future tense as well. Salvation is therefore a process and anyone can stop believing anywhere along that process. The Greek word for believe in Jn 3:16 is pisteuōn which is a present tense participle translated as "believing." One must therefore continue believing in order to have eternal life. If a believer becomes uncommitted and stops believing anywhere along this process, eternal life is not assured of. Your view must conform to the scripture.

SBC said:

...The Disciples are our example. They heard, they doubted, they wondered, they challenged.....and
...the minute they SAW, a miracle, THEY BELIEVED. Then they repeated the process, over and over
...for ever new thing they HEARD, they doubted, etc. THEN SAW, what Jesus said, come to pass, THEN
...BELIEVED.

Click to expand...

Peter believed. He walked and talked with Jesus face to face for some 3 years. Yet he still denied Jesus 3x. If he did not repent of his denial, do you think he would still be saved?

SBC said:

FAITHFULNESS - ie FAITH FULLNESS, requires a mans OATH. Let your decision (election) be SURE, that to God/Christ, ONLY, You Are, with YOUR WORD, committing yourself to Believe and Faith to HIM ONLY.
1 Pet 1
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Click to expand...

If our election is a sure thing, why are we instructed to make our calling and election sure? If our commitment is a sure thing and we cannot become uncommitted, why does 1 Pet 1:10 which you cited contain the word "if?" The word if indicates possibility - not certainty. IF a believer does these things - ye shall never fail. Conversely, IF a believer does not do these thing, he will fail and his calling and election is not sure.

SBC said:

So, NO, a faith-FULLY committed man can not become "un-committed".
Any one who claims that for themselves, was never committed in the first place.

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Since you believe that a genuine Christian can never un-commit and wander away from the faith you will have to wrestle with Js 5:19-20 - "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."
Since our souls are indestructible, spiritual death is being referred to here; not physical death. If indicates the possibility that is is indeed possible for a brother to wander from the truth which plainly contradicts your contention that is not possible for a brother/believer to become uncommitted.

< shrugs >
certainly some ekklesia once they are set apart, born again, immersed in Yeshua's Name and living His Life,
rejoice in heaven with Him in the next life.

Only a few people claim to be ekklesia, set apart, born again, immersed in Yeshua's Name and living His Life (now on earth),
and they will rejoice in heaven with Him in the next life too (as they do today, here on earth, in this life) ....

So there are many people who don't claim to be ekklesia, set apart, born again, immersed in Yeshua's Name living His Life now on earth.
Jesus tells them as HE tells everyone: turn to YHWH for His Kingdom is here, at hand, today.
THen Jesus trains and reveals and leads them in righteousness, showing them (from His Word) how to live TODAY, on earth, RIGHT NOW....

< shrugs > how many will be saved ? a disciple in the NT asked the MESSIAH YESHUA? HE replied: that is none of your concern; instead, you go and do as your FATHER tells you to do..
and likewise the faithful disciples went every day and did as the FATHER IN HEAVEN told them to do.

Others think they are saved.
They might even think they are saved forever.
Until judgment day. (yes, they actually die thinking they will awaken to life with JESUS)
But JESUS tells them , Be gone, I NEVER knew you....

So as ScRIPTURE says (one thing to be afraid of) BE TERRIFIED lest any one of you should fall short .... ....

and so it is....

Oldmantook said:

Indeed belief is a process. So is salvation as salvation is referred to in the scriptures not only as a past tense event, but also in the present tense and future tense as well. Salvation is therefore a process and anyone can stop believing anywhere along that process. The Greek word for believe in Jn 3:16 is pisteuōn which is a present tense participle translated as "believing." One must therefore continue believing in order to have eternal life. If a believer becomes uncommitted and stops believing anywhere along this process, eternal life is not assured of. Your view must conform to the scripture.

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My view does conform to scripture.

Believing is one thing. That is what a person does or doesn't do. And no doubt people can change their minds.

Anytime a person is doing something, they believe, or hope their choice is going to be beneficial to them.

Salvation is different than belief. Salvation is GIFT, provided for ALL souls, and something, a person must first knows exists, BEFORE, they can choose to ACCEPT the gift.

Knowing about Salvation, BEGINS by a person, Hearing, the Word of God.

When a person FIRST IS HEARING the Word of God - they are Learning -

An Adult - hearing for the first time - will do what he has always done, when he hears something new;
...which is hear - THEN: decipher the words in his MIND, of what makes sense to his MIND and decide
...IF that makes sense TO his MIND, before he will claim to believe it.

...whereas a CHILD, will not reason, wonder, decipher what he is hearing -
...but rather just simply believe everything he is hearing is TRUTH, whether or not he understands it.

Adults desiring to KNOW ABOUT GOD - have to make a CHOICE. To believe or not believe what they are hearing IS TRUTH.

Children simply believe it is the TRUTH.

Scripture says, come to the Lord, like a child. Which is to say; Come to the Lord WITHOUT RESERVATION. Trust in the Lord. Trust what you HEAR is the TRUTH. Period.

So, yes there is a process, for particularly, adults, to get to a point of belief.

Every Word of God being HEARD by a person - IS the TRUTH OF GOD -
This is the difference -
Hearing a mans WORD, may or may not be the TRUTH.
Hearing GODS WORD, is always the TRUTH.

And when a man is HEARING GODS WORD - God is INVOLVED, giving that man FAITH.
Which is to say; Man is choosing to believe - and God is gifting that man with faith.

There is no Salvation being GIVEN. What is happening is; Faith is being given for Belief.

The man still controls HIS BELIEF, and God controls his gift of FAITH.

"IF" a man, continues following, hearing, BELIEVING; "THEN" his receiving of FAITH increases.

"IF" at some point in a mans life, a mans BELIEF, becomes, more than, the thoughts of his MIND, and
"changes" to BELIEF, from the "THOUGHTS" of his HEART. The man is experiencing, a GREAT INCREASE of Faith. "THEN" is the man, PREPARED, to GIVE GOD CONTROL over his life.

"IF" the man, CHOOSES to give GOD full CONTROL over his life.
"THEN" the man, would - TELL GOD of his CHOICE to GIVE GOD CONTROL over his life.

"IF" the mans heart is true in his belief.
"THEN" God acts, TAKING CONTROL of the mans life.

This is a simple and brief, to the point, exchange of SPIRITUAL CONTROL of a mans life.
And every man is different of what he experiences DURING his whole NATURAL life.
Men make decisions everyday, concerning their NATURAL life, in a NATURAL world.
However, a man making a SPIRITUAL decision about their life, concerns, here, now, and forever.

The mind of man is ever-changing. As the mind of man is ever- learning new things.
It is the HEART of mans thoughts, that have the ability to HOLD his truth, without a wavering change.

That is WHY, it is the importance, that a man GIVE GOD CONTROL of his life, BASED on his HEARTS thoughts, not his MIND.

And since IT IS GOD, the man is giving CONTROL of his life, so too, is it GOD, the man TELLS of his decision.

And so too, is it the Heart of the man, God examines, to SEE the mans truth of submission.

"IF" the man HAS submitted, and God found the mans heart TRUE in belief.
"THEN" God TAKES the control over a mans life.

It is "THEN" a man receives: FROM GOD ~
Forgiveness, Saving of his soul, Full faithfulness to God only, a cleansed body, a sanctified body, a dead body in Christ, a justified body, a redeemable body, a new heart, the Seed of God, a born again spirit,
the Spirit of God, the truth of God, a 24-7 teacher, a fellowship with God, the growing of wisdom of God, the growing of understanding of God, the FOREVER life within and with God.

God IS FAITHFUL, to TAKE control of ANY MAN'S life, WHO GIVES GOD control.

It does NOT matter, IF other men are satisfied with the man.
God IS satisfied with the man!
The "relationship", IS between the man and God.

How and when God receives control FROM a man, is a process, per individual men's choices.
However, the RESULT, for each man, is THE SAME.

And HOW God CONTROLS each individual mans LIFE, (during the mans natural life), is NOT the same, from individual to individual. IOW,
God chooses men to SERVE HIM, in the WAY "that pleases HIM"!!

And "OTHER" men stand on the sidelines, frothing at the mouth in criticism, wagging their finger, dictating how the man is UN-worthy, not good enough for Gods Grace, nitpicking, gossiping, and endlessly trying to put the man in a position of DEFENDING his relationship with God.

Your view must conform to the scripture.

Click to expand...

I do not DEFEND my relationship with God. I KNOW, HIS WAY. I KNOW, my Heart. I KNOW WHAT I have GIVEN TO GOD. I KNOW WHAT He has taken. I TRUST He is Faithful. PERIOD!

I am NOT ignorant that MEN can come and go, believe and not believe, like and not like, trust and not trust, ANYTHING, at ANY TIME......
UNTIL; it is a Spiritual matter, with God involved and He TAKES what is freely GIVEN TO HIM, by a man, FOR God to control of the mans life.

To preach or teach, GOD is as wishy washy as a mans MIND, ever changing, is corrupt teaching.
Gods' control over a mans life, absolutely INCLUDES saving the mans soul, to KEEP forever life in his soul!

It is NOT a gift God gives REPEATEDLY, "AS IF", His saving was a FAIL, and requires "repeating".
It is NOT a gift God with-draws from the man, "AS IF", God was FOOLED, and the man didn't "really" believe.

Such teaching and implications are corrupt. God IS Faithful, True, and Never fooled.

Peter believed. He walked and talked with Jesus face to face for some 3 years. Yet he still denied Jesus 3x. If he did not repent of his denial, do you think he would still be saved?

Click to expand...

So? Peter was human. Learning about God. You think NATURAL men instantly BELIEVE, what they do not UNDERSTAND? They don't. They are natural, and USE their MIND to LOGICALLY conclude, and then believe their LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS.

Again - a mans BELIEF is on the man. It is his NATURAL "MINDS" thoughts!!!
A thought in a mans HEART - is simply HIS TRUTH, that IS NOT based on "LOGICAL" conclusions.
LOGICAL conclusions IS what the MIND DOES.
LOGICAL conclusions ARE literally PICKING a conclusion, "BASED ON" OPTIONS, of this or that.
A TRUTH, has no OPTIONS of this or that.
A TRUTH, is ONLY ONE CHOICE, of ONE THING, that the man Chooses to believe.
Because, a man mind was created to PICK and CHOOSE, options, logical conclusions.....
God does not SEEK a mans MIND-FUL thought of submission...
God SEEKS a mans HEART-FUL thought of submission!! ONE TRUE THOUGHT, period!

When Peter's MIND relented, and the thoughts of his HEART revealed....THAT is when He SUBJECTED himself to the PROCESS of GIVING his life to God's control.

So, was Peter any different than what is required of ANY MAN? Of course not.
He repented. Just like ANY man who is revealing his submission of giving his life to God.

And so what, you get to hear, read, know, about Peter's having reservations of his belief, and then, his faith being revealed of his submission unto God?

You stress, but Peter was face to face with Jesus. So? The lesson, is; It doesn't matter if GOD appeared before you this moment -
He first of all, CAN NOT APPEAR to you AS HE IS. YOU can NOT SEE God as He IS.
God HAS APPEARED TO MEN, MANY TIMES, in the likeness of SOMETHING, men CAN SEE.
IF the LIKENESS, is a dove, men SEE a dove.
IF the LIKENESS, is a cloud, men SEE a cloud.
IF the LIKENESS, is a bush, a mist, a veil, a MAN, that IS what men SEE, and CALL THE THING THEY SEE, by WHAT they know and ARE SEEING! Men have SEEN the likeness of MEN, yet knew it was an angel. Men have SEEN the likeness of a MAN, yet knew it was God.

Peter was face to face with a MAN! Peter KNEW Jesus, as a MAN. AS a MAN, is HOW Jesus was revealed to Peter. You think MEN do not DOUBT MEN? Of course they do.

It is WHEN Peter, no longer SAW JESUS AS A MAN, that Peter's Heart could BELIEVE. Peter's TRUE belief becomes revealed. And THEN, LIKE any man's WHOSE TRUE belief in his heart is accomplished, that the man, IS prepared to submit to God.....

You get to HEAR, of HOW Peter, declares His belief. It is not a lesson ABOUT PETER, the lesson, is about HOW ANY MAN, can follow the ACCEPTABLE examples given us in Scripture to do the SAME, in reconciling themselves unto God!

2 Cor 5
[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Are you still in a beginning, believing with your mind, seeing Jesus as a MAN of Flesh?
Or have you become a believer with your heart, seeing Jesus as the Christ who IS Spirit, IS He, who is God?

THIS is the crux, of 2 Cor 5, of what RESULTS, when a man SUBMITS his life to God, and God TAKES, control of the mans LIFE. A man NO LONGER sees, Jesus, as a man of flesh. A man SEES the Christ, God with us, His Spirit with us, the VOICE that communicates with us BY His indwelling Spirit, to our born again spirit, within our new heart.

Doubters are natural men. And natural men, could not believe, EVEN SEEING JESUS face to face, that He was the Christ, God with us. Is is with continued following and being GIVEN faith from God, that a man CAN SEE, what human eyes CAN NOT SEE.

Natural men SEE natural things. Jesus flat out tells you, IF a man has come to KNOW HIM, and for the few that were fortunate to have seen him in the flesh....THAT that man, has come to KNOW HIM, who IS THE FATHER, and some have been given the opportunity to SEE the Father, standing before them face to face, in the LIKENESS of a flesh man.

John 14
[7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

And that for those who DO KNOW HIM, SHALL, one day become bodily changed, that THEY CAN SEE HIM, "AS HE IS" without a shroud, a veil, a cover, a likeness of something else.

SEE the CONDITION - for a man to become changed to SEE GOD AS HE IS, without cover.
The CONDITION, is a man WHO is "a son of God".

1 John 3
[2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The CONDITION - IS solely based upon a mans belief in his heart and such man giving God control over his life, that GOD makes the changes in the man, that GOD makes the man's changes acceptable to HIM, to thereafter call the man, a "son of God".

God IS FAITHFUL, and DOES NOT UNDO, the changes HE MAKES concerning a mans life!
To teach otherwise if corrupt teaching.

If our election is a sure thing, why are we instructed to make our calling and election sure?

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If our commitment is a sure thing and we cannot become uncommitted, why does 1 Pet 1:10 which you cited contain the word "if?" The word if indicates possibility - not certainty. IF a believer does these things - ye shall never fail. Conversely, IF a believer does not do these thing, he will fail and his calling and election is not sure.

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You are trying to make a SURE commitment - VOID.
By trying to make a SURE commitment - CHANGEABLE. It isn't!

The "IF", simply is telling you - "IF" you commit to God, it's permanent.
The "IF", you do not "commit" to God - duh! there IS NO ELECTION, committing to God!

Since you believe that a genuine Christian can never un-commit and wander away from the faith you will have to wrestle with Js 5:19-20 -

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No I do not. I do not have to wrestle with ANY WORDS you THINK and SPEAK for me.
I said NOTHING whatsoever about "genuine" "Christian" or "genuine Christian".

Js 5:19-20"My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

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I have already spoke at length, of a mans mindful- wishy washy belief...believing, doubting, wondering, logically concluding between options, and changing his own mind.

And have spoken at length, when a man STOPS wandering around in this Natural world, gathering thoughts in his MIND according to the world, and DECIDES to examine his own Heart of TRUE belief in God. ie WHEN that man DOES conclude his own BELIEF IN GOD, IN "HIS HEART", is when the man is prepared to SUBMIT to God. And that too, is the mans CHOICE to SUBMIT OR NOT.

WHOEVER, is teaching, preaching, counseling, telling, revealing, helping, the man, to STOP relying on his MIND, and the worlds philosophies, and the worlds way, and start relying on his HEARTS thoughts,
absolutely is helping to BRING BACK a man into the WORD of God, which is always coupled with God giving the man faith, which is simply getting the man BACK to following along, UNTIL he commits.

You are trying to make, a man wandering AWAY, a man already committed. Not true.
Many men, hear and believe FOR YEARS, without COMMITMENT.
You think EVERY man sitting in your Church's pews are COMMITTED?
How about a GUY you have seen in attendance in your Church for years...and then not seen him...and then have seen him again in Church....then not....then again.... DO YOU CALL HIM a genuine Christian?

And how about that SAME GUY, one day you SEE, him get up and walk up to an alter call?
What do you think he is doing?
He is notifying EVERYONE in attendance, they are his witnesses of his COMMITMENT to GOD.

Attendance in a Church, of people you see, does not make ANYONE a "genuine Christian".
Not attending a Church, does not make ANYONE a "genuine Christian".
People can call themselves, whatever they want.
People can call others, whatever they want.

God never called men "Christians"!
God never called followers "Christians"!

God calls those who HAVE committed to HIM, by the truth in their heart, "born of God", "sons of God"!

God calls those who ARE, born of God, sons of God, forgiven and INCAPABLE of continuing to sin!

Why would I ignore God and instead believe what is in YOUR MIND? I wouldn't. I don't.

Since our souls are indestructible,

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False.
A body is destructible. A body's life is it's BLOOD, and it is destructible.
A soul is destructible. A soul's life, is the Breath of God, and that LIFE is NOT destructible.

The body is simply a VESSEL, that holds life (blood).
The soul is simply a VESSEL, that holds life (Gods breath).

Mans' LIFE can be killed.
God's LIFE is everlasting.
Vessels can be killed, can be Destroyed.
Men can KILL body's.
Men can NOT KILL or DESTROY a soul.
God CAN kill body's, destroy body's, destroy souls.

Matt 10
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

spiritual death is being referred to here; not physical death. If indicates the possibility that is is indeed possible for a brother to wander from the truth which plainly contradicts your contention that is not possible for a brother/believer to become uncommitted.

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No it does not contradict what I have said.

Pay attention-
Men can wander back and forth, believing, not believing.
Men WHO HAVE given God control of their life, HAVE COMMITTED their CONTROL to God.

You are trying to teach, men can RELENT, change their HEART, and TAKE BACK control of their life FROM GOD! YOU CAN'T. And precisely why Scripture tells you, to BE SURE OF YOUR ELECTION to GIVE GOD control of your life.....

ONCE COMMITTED....There are no RE-DO's, UN-DOING.

Telling me of ALL the situations, and reasons, an UNCOMMITTED man can waver,
is NOT NEWS. NOR does it have anything to do WITH, "ONCE" the commitment is accomplished!

What MIND'S thoughts ARE YOU supposedly going to UN-DO?
The one in your DEAD BODY?

What HEART'S thoughts ARE YOU supposedly going to UN-DO?
The old dead heart in your old DEAD BODY?

What SOUL ARE YOU supposedly going to UN-DO?
The one God made RESTORED?

What spirit ARE YOU supposedly going to UN-DO?
The spirit God quickened, made alive, with HIS SEED?

You need to learn the difference between belief in a mans wishy washy MIND, and belief in a mans HEART, and a mans COMMITMENT, to God.

And that a commitment to God IS NOT SOMETHING, that a FAITHFUL GOD, hopes a man WILL LET HIM KEEP!

Be SURE of your belief in your heart, Be sure of your COMMITMENT, it is a DONE DEAL!

God Bless,
SBC

mark kennedy said:

I'm not arguing against obedience to the faith, I'm saying it's by grace through faith. More importantly, I'm arguing once saved always saved but that many who hear and understand in their hearts, fall away from the faith. Paul, in his extensive discussion of justification by grace through faith makes obedience the first and last word on the matter:
. . . through whom we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name.(Rom. 1:5)
. . . and by the prophetic Scriptures [the mystery] has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.(Rom. 16:26)
What else do we see here, there's grace, apostleship (a gift of grace), and the prophetic Scriptures (seed), which is the commandment (singular not plural) of everlasting God. Hebrews warns of several dangers of falling away from the faith, at the heart of the emphasis and throughout the book, the danger is abandoning the substance for the shadow. The writer of Hebrews is crystal clear if they abandon Christ and return to a works righteousness, they cannot be restored to repentance calling it impossible. You have neglected the key doctrine here, justification by grace through faith.

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We both agree that it is obedience to the faith. We disagree on what obedience entails. Your unfamiliarity with the Greek verb tenses keeps popping up which so far you have not acknowledged. Your reference to Hebrews where they cannot be restored to repentance does not back up your claim. In fact it proves the opposite of what you believe. One can be "restored" to repentance only if one was previously in a state of repentance which can only refer to a believer. The reason why it is impossible for these particular Hebrews to be restored to repentance is that they were crucifying and shaming Christ. Note that the words "crucifying" and "shaming" Christ in the Greek are anastaurountas and paradeigmatizontas respectively. Both are present tense participles which means that these Hebrews are still by their continuing actions crucifying and shaming Christ. Therefore it is impossible to renew them to repentance because their ongoing sinful actions demonstrate that they show no evidence of repentance. Repentance precedes forgiveness; no repentance, no forgiveness therefore it is impossible to restore them to repentance. If they had stopped disobeying and obediently sought forgiveness they would have been restored to repentance but given their ongoing disobedience, restoration to repentance was impossible.

mark kennedy said:

Indeed, to abandon faith is to abandon Christ, I don't need a lexicon to understand that. Like the parable of the soils the word can be rejected and never go on to saving faith. The tense can be past, present or future depending on the context and the construction but the faith is the 'present' truth (2 Peter 1:12), not a past easy believism that can be forgotten. The same revelation, commandment, word that justifies you, sanctifies you and brings you to the obedience of the faith. You must be born again of incorruptible seed, sanctified by the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, built up in your faith that build up the body of Christ by means of God's gifts of grace. By that process that begins and ends with grace you bear fruit to the glory of God.

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You fail to explain how an unbeliever can abandon Christ? How can someone who never believed and possessed saving faith, abandon the faith? That is simply impossible as apostasy can only apply to genuine believers. Unbelievers can never apostatize and abandon the faith since they never possessed saving faith so I find your explanation implausible.

QUOTE="mark kennedy, post: 71851838, member: 29337"]In the future God will show ‘the incomparable riches of his grace’ the kindness of Jesus Christ (past). You were saved by grace (past), through faith (present), not created by good works but for God works in Christ (future), which God has prepared for us (past), even from before the foundation of the world. Semantics, breaking down of the tense of a word, is relevant to the construction of the word. Justification by grace through faith is past, present and future. It transcends the life of the believer and redemptive history, there never was another way, it was just more fully revealed in the New Testament, the fullest and final revelation being in Christ, the author and finisher of our salvation.[/QUOTE]
Agree that we were saved to do good works however that does not negate the fact that ongoing obedience is required for salvation. In addition to obedience, the scriptures refer to the need for persevering, overcoming, fighting the good fight and finishing the race etc. These requirements can only apply to genuine believers. If it were impossible to not persevere, not overcome and to not finish the race then those admonitions would be nonsensical. These admonitions exist in the scriptures because it is possible for the genuine believer to no longer believe and/or fall away due to habitual sin.

mark kennedy said:

If you are saved by grace you have been shown mercy, you must be merciful. If you have been forgiven you must forgive. If you come to God a wretched, dirty, desperate sinner you must be gracious, especially to people of faith, even if they are slaves. Paul's admonition warns that some of you are sick and some of you sleep. The people James is warning were not bearing fruit, he asks the question, is this even saving faith.

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We both agree that works is the evidence, not the cause of eternal salvation. We both agree those who are born again, need to forgive as we have been graciously forgiven. However my question to you is what happens if we choose not to forgive. For example if someone has wronged you and instead of forgiving him/her, you instead choose to remain bitter and refuse to forgive, would you still be forgiven by God?

mark kennedy said:

You must be born AGAIN, the prodigal son is a figure of the lost because before that we all know God's divine attributes and eternal nature leaving us without excuse (Rom. 1:18-20). This isn't complicated, he was dead in sin but when he repented he was alive. That is a one time event and the Scriptures are crystal clear on that point. Now that is not to say a believer cannot be tempted, those addressed in the book of James and Corinthians certainly were. There are hazards, conditions of the heart, that can threaten the early convert or even the seasoned saint. But if that conversion is genuine salvation is forever, that believer will and must bear fruit, that is the promise of the gospel.

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The big problem is that you actually change the text in order to fit with your view which is quite a dangerous thing to do. We must deal with the text as it is written - not how we would rewrite it. Jesus did not say born AGAIN; he clearly stated ALIVE AGAIN. When he spoke to Nicodemus, Jesus used the term born again but in reference to the prodigal he used the term alive again. Two different terms and I'm sure Jesus knew the difference between the two terms but the question is, do you?

mark kennedy said:

You left out this part:
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. (1 John 2:19)

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I already stated that it is true that some who depart never belonged to us as this verse states, however it is not logical to conclude that these particular ones are representative of the whole as that would be an overgeneralization. Like I already wrote, by definition only genuine believers can apostatize.

mark kennedy said:

Had they been believers they would have recognized other believers when they were hungry, thirsty, in prison and friendless, and would have responded to them as they would Christ. They actually did respond to them as they had to Christ, with gross indifference. Judas cast out demons in Christ's name but Jesus said of him, one of you is a devil. Judas was already a child of perdition. Jesus called him and made him one of the twelve because ministers will always have to deal with this kind of treachery. False believers and false teachers will find their way into our ranks, looking for a way to turn a quick buck and make trouble for the saints. If a devil casts out a devil then it means his kingdom is finished, not that Judas or the host of the rejected were ever, remotely, the righteousness of God in Christ.

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You have failed to deal with text and instead go to great lengths to substitute your own interpretation. You have neglected to explain how these unbelievers as you claim in Matt 7 prophesied, cast demons out and did the miraculous in Your name. You failed to explain why if they were unbelievers did they not meet the same fate as the sons of Sceva. You failed to account for Jesus' own explanation of why he told them to depart from him - BECAUSE they PRACTICED LAWLESSNESS (v.23). So even though these believers did the miraculous in Jesus name, they still practiced sin in their lives and Jesus therefore rejected them which supports my view that obedience is requisite for salvation. One can genuinely believe and do great miracles but lose his salvation in the process due to habitual sin.

mark kennedy said:

I'm not arguing against obedience to the faith, I'm telling you the means and the ends of faith.

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The problem is not all who are genuinely saved will go on to obey. It does not always mean that they weren't saved in the first place. It means that all believers have the choice whether or not to obey. What does obedience entail? Obedience means belief and also belief as demonstrated through our actions. Conversely, if Christians demonstrate habitual disobedience then saving faith is not theirs to possess. That is why Paul sternly warned the brethren in Rome: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Rom 8:13). Make no mistake, the brother who chooses to sow to the flesh will suffer spiritual death and separation from God.

mmbattlestar said:

Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


John 6:37-6:40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 10:27-29


"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."


Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?

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Matthew 10:22-- Those that endure until their end will be saved--- So no one is saved until they endure until the end( either death, or Har-mageddon.) endure living now to do Jesus Fathers will( Matt 7:21)--Few actually do. No mortal has the right to tell another--you are saved or born again--they do not know.

Oldmantook said:

We both agree that it is obedience to the faith. We disagree on what obedience entails. Your unfamiliarity with the Greek verb tenses keeps popping up which so far you have not acknowledged. Your reference to Hebrews where they cannot be restored to repentance does not back up your claim. In fact it proves the opposite of what you believe. One can be "restored" to repentance only if one was previously in a state of repentance which can only refer to a believer. The reason why it is impossible for these particular Hebrews to be restored to repentance is that they were crucifying and shaming Christ. Note that the words "crucifying" and "shaming" Christ in the Greek are anastaurountas and paradeigmatizontas respectively. Both are present tense participles which means that these Hebrews are still by their continuing actions crucifying and shaming Christ. Therefore it is impossible to renew them to repentance because their ongoing sinful actions demonstrate that they show no evidence of repentance. Repentance precedes forgiveness; no repentance, no forgiveness therefore it is impossible to restore them to repentance. If they had stopped disobeying and obediently sought forgiveness they would have been restored to repentance but given their ongoing disobedience, restoration to repentance was impossible.

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The tense being secondary to me I saw no reason to dwell on it. The straight forward meaning dovetails perfectly with what I've understood from the parable of the sower and the overall message of Hebrews. Likewise in Romans the death and resurrection was a one time event:

You are to consider yourself dead to sin but alive to God. That is crystal clear and there is no hint of repentance being something repeatable anymore then Christ can be crucified again. I absolutely do not dispute obedience to the faith is required, what is more repentance is something the new believer and seasoned saint will continue throughout their lives. Unbelievers certainly can abandon the gospel once they have been enlightened but that is not saving faith. They can receive the word with rejoicing and fall away from the faith without ever coming to saving faith. My core point here is that you die to sin once and for all, if you reject the word of God in your heart once you are shown the truth of it and experience the power of the age to come your lost forever.

You fail to explain how an unbeliever can abandon Christ? How can someone who never believed and possessed saving faith, abandon the faith? That is simply impossible as apostasy can only apply to genuine believers. Unbelievers can never apostatize and abandon the faith since they never possessed saving faith so I find your explanation implausible.

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No, apostasy can apply to hypocrites, false brethren, false prophets and false apostles. To fall away from the faith is something that by definition an unbeliever does, who turns from God to sin.

Agree that we were saved to do good works however that does not negate the fact that ongoing obedience is required for salvation. In addition to obedience, the scriptures refer to the need for persevering, overcoming, fighting the good fight and finishing the race etc.

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We are certainly in agreement so far.

These requirements can only apply to genuine believers. If it were impossible to not persevere, not overcome and to not finish the race then those admonitions would be nonsensical. These admonitions exist in the scriptures because it is possible for the genuine believer to no longer believe and/or fall away due to habitual sin.

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You do know that God can destroy the flesh to save the soul right? When Paul is speaking of those who are sick and some sleep he is talking about believers right? We all sin, we are all tempted and stumble in many ways, there can be no question of that. Repentance is a change of attitude, at the seat of moral reflection, that is once and for all time turned to God. The sin in your flesh will not survive your death, we know what people do but only God knows the hidden motives and thoughts and inclinations of the heart. David harbored secret sin his entire life, on his death bed he confessed it to Solomon. His right hand man, Joab, had murdered two people and David knew it and did nothing. Please pardon the length of my quotes, I'm a firm believer in context:

Don't tell me you don't see this in your life, that you don't struggle with the natural man who seeks to enslave you to sin again, I know you do, we all do. I think that's at the heart of your sense of urgency and it's not that I hear it too often, but too little. It's not that I disagree with you on obedience to the faith but the means of submitting to the things of God in the fear of the Lord. It's by grace you are saved, sanctified, raised, perfected and glorified.

We both agree that works is the evidence, not the cause of eternal salvation. We both agree those who are born again, need to forgive as we have been graciously forgiven. However my question to you is what happens if we choose not to forgive. For example if someone has wronged you and instead of forgiving him/her, you instead choose to remain bitter and refuse to forgive, would you still be forgiven by God?

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You don't forgive then God doesn't forgive you, don't believe for a second he won't hold us accountable for that. Forgive even as God for Christ's sake forgave us and there is nothing in the New Testament that relieves us from that responsibility. We turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, give asking nothing in return and my personal favorite, judge not lest ye be judged. God has been merciful to us, we dare not for shame, refuse to be merciful. Jesus even makes it clear that if your brother has something against you, it is you that has the responsibility to be reconciled. God can take this personally and you don't want to be on the business end of that.

The big problem is that you actually change the text in order to fit with your view which is quite a dangerous thing to do. We must deal with the text as it is written - not how we would rewrite it. Jesus did not say born AGAIN; he clearly stated ALIVE AGAIN. When he spoke to Nicodemus, Jesus used the term born again but in reference to the prodigal he used the term alive again. Two different terms and I'm sure Jesus knew the difference between the two terms but the question is, do you?

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The same word used here is used for the resurrection of Christ:


Which is, as I have maintained, a one time event. We are not born of flesh, or blood, or husbands will, but born again of the Spirit of God. He came unto his own and his own received him not, but to as many as did receive him he gave power to become children of God. He made the revelation of the author of life, the one who brings light to every soul that comes into the world. You receive the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God and experienced the power of God to become a child of God and reject it, you are lost forever.

I already stated that it is true that some who depart never belonged to us as this verse states, however it is not logical to conclude that these particular ones are representative of the whole as that would be an overgeneralization. Like I already wrote, by definition only genuine believers can apostatize.

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Judas did, many have. The Pharisees at the council of Jerusalem were said to believe but stood up and argued that the Gentiles must be circumcised in order to be saved. Peter stood up and said it was a yoke neither we nor our fathers can bear. The Gentiles he said, have been purifying themselves by faith, indicating that justification by grace through faith was and is not a Pauline doctrine but an apostolic doctrine. The means is not works, that's the end, the means of obedience to the faith is grace through faith.

You have failed to deal with text and instead go to great lengths to substitute your own interpretation. You have neglected to explain how these unbelievers as you claim in Matt 7 prophesied, cast demons out and did the miraculous in Your name. You failed to explain why if they were unbelievers did they not meet the same fate as the sons of Sceva. You failed to account for Jesus' own explanation of why he told them to depart from him - BECAUSE they PRACTICED LAWLESSNESS (v.23). So even though these believers did the miraculous in Jesus name, they still practiced sin in their lives and Jesus therefore rejected them which supports my view that obedience is requisite for salvation. One can genuinely believe and do great miracles but lose his salvation in the process due to habitual sin.

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You failed to address the fact that Judas cast out demons but Jesus called him a devil. Obedience is a result of salvation and faith in Christ is an act of obedience. This is my son, the Father said at his baptism, hear ye him. The word means hear and heed and the message in it's most condensed form is repent the kingdom of God is at hand. Unless you think you can be sinless in thought word and deed you must acknowledge that all believers struggle with habitual sin, from time to time. You can manifest the power of God and never repent of your sin, it's not the outward manifestation that saves you, it's the internal transformation and that is invariably by grace through faith.

The problem is not all who are genuinely saved will go on to obey. It does not always mean that they weren't saved in the first place.

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Hold on, if you had the means of salvation and rejected it you were never saved. Your ultimately saved at the return of Christ or at final judgment. If you had what was required and rejected it that's not salvation, that's the seed of the word perishing in your heart.

It means that all believers have the choice whether or not to obey. What does obedience entail? Obedience means belief and also belief as demonstrated through our actions. Conversely, if Christians demonstrate habitual disobedience then saving faith is not theirs to possess. That is why Paul sternly warned the brethren in Rome: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Rom 8:13). Make no mistake, the brother who chooses to sow to the flesh will suffer spiritual death and separation from God.

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Then why would you consider someone who goes onto perdition a brother? I'm a little short on time, I'm going to let it go at that. I would have liked more of an exposition and less of a circular argument but still, an interesting exchange. I can only tell you this, if you are saved your saved forever and if you are lost after receiving the means of salvation, the word and the power of God, then you are lost forever. What is more, you were never saved in any way that is meaningful.

If you care to argue this formally let me know, but I'm not much for arguments that go in circles endlessly. One observation is first, you spent no time on justification by grace through faith. You made some general references to obedience to the faith but the only specifics were that it was mutually exclusive with habitual sin. I enjoy a good theological debate as much as the next guy but at some point you just have to let an impasse like this drift into the stacks.

You will either be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, there can be no question of that. You will either be the righteousness of God in Christ or lost forever, that's not even a question. What we have been dealing with is eternal security and that is meaningless without justification by grace through faith. I know what your trying to do but I think it's time to let this one go, perhaps we can pick it up another time.

Grace and peace,
Mark

After going through every passage posted by the lose your salvation or give up your salvation belief group, from what I see they are starting out without a proper understanding of a few major items in scripture. Some of these include:

1.) That a belief that you are a Christian, and even believing Jesus is your Lord and that you are doing as He would desire, even doing signs and wonders, miracles … in His name is no proof that you were ever a Christian.

a. Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

i. Notice that it is not a matter of them “being Christian” and then giving up or losing their Christianity, but rather that in spite of all they did and all they believed, “In Jesus name”, they NEVER WERE Christians.

ii. This covers a lot of people believing they are Christians but not really being Christians.

2.) There are a number of people who seemingly leave the faith that never see any consequences at all.

a. 1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

b.The point being, all of the passages that pertain to people seemingly hearing the word, seemingly believing, seemingly doing all the things that Christians do … and then leaving with no consequences at all, never were really Christians at all.

3.) This brings up an issue that many Christians do not understand. The issue of how God treats His kids/Christians, when they sin. This is dealt with in 1Co. 11:28-32

a.1Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

i. In this passage we have how God judges His kids. Revoking their sonship or them being able to say, “I quit, I am no longer your child.” Is not a part of the options here.

ii. Understand that the reason we Christians, REAL Christians, are judged NOW, on this earth, and receive consequences NOW, while we are on this earth, is so that we don’t have to be judged with everyone else. (Not real Christians)

iii. That said, when God judges His REAL kids, the judgment takes the form of weakness, sickness and physical death … notice the word sleep. We aren’t referring to an extra nap. We are talking physical death even though you are still saved. Don’t trust me. Do a word study on the Greek root words.

1. If you want an example of this, read 1Co 5:1-5. In this segment we have a non-repentant Christian in the church, practicing sins even the Gentiles find abhorrent, sleeping with your father’s wife. No repentance, no sorrow, living in sin in the church. Obviously headed for hell, right? Nope. Falls in the “many sleep” category from 1Co 11. 1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2. Question: If you can practice sins that EVERYONE, even the Gentiles find repugnant, with everyone in the church knowing, and not repent, and still not lose your Christianity, what does one have to do to lose or give up your salvation?

b. Heb 12:6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

i. Understand that a failure to see this is not proof that you “gave up your sonship” or Christianity, but rather that you never were a legitimate child of God in the first place.

ii. According to the passage, does renouncing your Christianity keep you from seeing the reproof of God? If you do not see the reproof of God, what does it prove? It proves you NEVER WERE a child of God, just like the end of Mat. 7, right … “I NEVER knew you.”

4.) This brings us to some more involved passages that are also answered by the passages we just covered.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

i. This isn’t really a problem. I agree wholeheartedly with this EXACTLY as it is written. If you are a real Christian and you knew all this and you have the Holy Spirit AND YOU DO THIS … you are done. You can’t get back. Since you are a real child of God, and God reproves every child, and the reproof of God takes the form of weakness, sickness and … nap time … forever, what will you see? Can’t repent … nap time boys.

ii. One more thing. Notice the word “close” … yes, I know, if you want to believe people lose their salvation and go to hell, you really do NOT want to see that word n verse 8, but it’s there. Now if I was close to getting in a car accident, did I get in the accident? No, right. If I put a little dent in the fender, was I “close” to having an accident? Nope. Had one, but it was minor. The old saying about being a little bit pregnant applies. No such thing. Cursed or not boys, what does it say, what does it mean? How “Close” to being cursed can you be … without being cursed? Saved by the skin of your chinny chin, chin. Squeaking in with no rewards at all. By the way, Paul uses this illustration in 1Co 3:10-15. Notice verse 15 … still saved. Plus it is the stuff “On” the field that is burned up in the Hebrews passage. The field itself is not destroyed.

b. Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

i. If you sin and do not judge yourself, and you make God judge you, what should you expect based on Heb. 12 and 1Co 11? Come on, you’ve got this. The judgement of God, right, sickness, weakness, physical death. What do you think you should expect if you are a real child and you trample under foot the blood of Christ? Sorry … you are on your own …. I don’t want the blood spatter on my clothes … good luck with that …

c. 2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." This one is a lot like this passage:

d. Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

e. Tie both of those in with this one:

f. Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

i. So, what’s the key here? Only one group is really saved. Those that figured out the will of God/Christ and followed it as a habit and way of life. Knowing the will of God, and then not doing it, only guarantees you a greater condemnation. Knowledge doesn’t help the lost. It results in greater eternal consequences.

I don’t believe there are any passages that do not, in some way, relate to what is covered here. That said, if ANYONE has any verse that isn’t covered by the information here, or isn’t a simple matter of looking at the context and seeing that these people were never Christians in the first place, regardless of their beliefs or profession, or simply looking at the context of the passage, let me know.

mark kennedy said:

You are to consider yourself dead to sin but alive to God. That is crystal clear and there is no hint of repentance being something repeatable anymore then Christ can be crucified again. I absolutely do not dispute obedience to the faith is required, what is more repentance is something the new believer and seasoned saint will continue throughout their lives. Unbelievers certainly can abandon the gospel once they have been enlightened but that is not saving faith. They can receive the word with rejoicing and fall away from the faith without ever coming to saving faith. My core point here is that you die to sin once and for all, if you reject the word of God in your heart once you are shown the truth of it and experience the power of the age to come your lost forever.

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To claim that it is possible to "fall away from the faith without ever coming to the faith" is a logical absurdity. Explain how can someone fall away from something that they never belonged to in the first place? Only genuine believers can depart from the faith. Unbelievers never belonged to the faith so it is therefore impossible for them to depart from it. That's like saying I left college in my Junior year when in fact I never attended college in my life.

mark kennedy said:

No, apostasy can apply to hypocrites, false brethren, false prophets and false apostles. To fall away from the faith is something that by definition an unbeliever does, who turns from God to sin.

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No, you would have to contend with my questions above. The false brethren are exactly that meaning false, unsaved, unbelievers. They were never saved. Only believers can turn away from God and turn to sin. Unbelievers have no choice but to sin and were never turned toward God.

mark kennedy said:

You do know that God can destroy the flesh to save the soul right?

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Yes indeed, but that alone does not obviate the fact that God can also condemn and assign the consequence of spiritual death to those believers who choose to live a life of habitual sin and disobedience.

mark kennedy said:

Don't tell me you don't see this in your life, that you don't struggle with the natural man who seeks to enslave you to sin again, I know you do, we all do. I think that's at the heart of your sense of urgency and it's not that I hear it too often, but too little. It's not that I disagree with you on obedience to the faith but the means of submitting to the things of God in the fear of the Lord. It's by grace you are saved, sanctified, raised, perfected and glorified.

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Indeed we battle with sin daily as no one is without sin. However you do know that grace is not a license to sin as Paul stated in Romans and therein lies the difference. It's important to note that the scriptures distinguish between occasional sin and habitual sin. 1 Jn 1:7 reads "But if we should walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin (1 Jn 1:7). This is a conditional sentence indicated by the word IF. "If" indicates that believers have the choice of whether to walk in the light or not. If - indicates possibility - not certainty. Therefore some believers will choose to walk in the light while other believers will choose to not walk in the light. The verse states IF we walk in the light, Jesus' blood cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light is therefore a condition/requirement for cleansing. If we don't walk in the light and instead choose to walk in darkness, no such assurance is to be had. In fact those believers who walk in darkness do not even have fellowship with God (v.6). Later John writes in 1 Jn 3:8 that "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil...." Whoever means anyone and everyone including believers. This again supports my view that Christians who practice sin do not have the assurance of eternal life.

mark kennedy said:

You don't forgive then God doesn't forgive you, don't believe for a second he won't hold us accountable for that. Forgive even as God for Christ's sake forgave us and there is nothing in the New Testament that relieves us from that responsibility. We turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, give asking nothing in return and my personal favorite, judge not lest ye be judged. God has been merciful to us, we dare not for shame, refuse to be merciful. Jesus even makes it clear that if your brother has something against you, it is you that has the responsibility to be reconciled. God can take this personally and you don't want to be on the business end of that

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So what exactly is the "business end" as you fail to make that clear? I asked you plainly if we refuse to forgive do we still have God's forgiveness? Yes or No? That is a straightforward question with a seemingly straightforward answer.

mark kennedy said:

Which is, as I have maintained, a one time event. We are not born of flesh, or blood, or husbands will, but born again of the Spirit of God. He came unto his own and his own received him not, but to as many as did receive him he gave power to become children of God. He made the revelation of the author of life, the one who brings light to every soul that comes into the world. You receive the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God and experienced the power of God to become a child of God and reject it, you are lost forever.

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Sorry but you continue to not answer my question. Jesus did not say born again. He stated alive again. You continue to be remiss in not distinguishing between the two.

mark kennedy said:

Judas did, many have. The Pharisees at the council of Jerusalem were said to believe but stood up and argued that the Gentiles must be circumcised in order to be saved. Peter stood up and said it was a yoke neither we nor our fathers can bear. The Gentiles he said, have been purifying themselves by faith, indicating that justification by grace through faith was and is not a Pauline doctrine but an apostolic doctrine. The means is not works, that's the end, the means of obedience to the faith is grace through faith.

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Ironically you mention Judas but there is not one iota of difference between Judas and the rest of the disciples. I suggest you carefully read Jn 17:6-12. Judas like his peers "was yours" and "given" by the Father to Jesus (v.6). This in no way can be descriptive of an unbeliever. Judas and his peers "accepted" and "believed" (v.8). Again only descriptive of a believer. Judas and the rest were kept by the power of Jesus' name (v.12) - again only believers are kept in Jesus' name. The only single difference between Judas and the rest of his cohorts is that he was doomed to destruction so that the Scripture would be fulfilled (v.12). This passage attests to the fact that Judas was a believer but lost his salvation because of his betrayal.

mark kennedy said:

You failed to address the fact that Judas cast out demons but Jesus called him a devil. Obedience is a result of salvation and faith in Christ is an act of obedience. This is my son, the Father said at his baptism, hear ye him. The word means hear and heed and the message in it's most condensed form is repent the kingdom of God is at hand. Unless you think you can be sinless in thought word and deed you must acknowledge that all believers struggle with habitual sin, from time to time. You can manifest the power of God and never repent of your sin, it's not the outward manifestation that saves you, it's the internal transformation and that is invariably by grace through faith.

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Judas cast out demons because he was a believer - simple explanation as I wrote above.

mark kennedy said:

Hold on, if you had the means of salvation and rejected it you were never saved. Your ultimately saved at the return of Christ or at final judgment. If you had what was required and rejected it that's not salvation, that's the seed of the word perishing in your heart.

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As I wrote earlier, the Apostle John wrote IF YOU WALK IN THE LIGHT. If indicates possibility - not certainty. Therefore the possibility exists that not all believers will obey God and walk in the light.

mark kennedy said:

Then why would you consider someone who goes onto perdition a brother? I'm a little short on time, I'm going to let it go at that. I would have liked more of an exposition and less of a circular argument but still, an interesting exchange. I can only tell you this, if you are saved your saved forever and if you are lost after receiving the means of salvation, the word and the power of God, then you are lost forever. What is more, you were never saved in any way that is meaningful.

If you care to argue this formally let me know, but I'm not much for arguments that go in circles endlessly. One observation is first, you spent no time on justification by grace through faith. You made some general references to obedience to the faith but the only specifics were that it was mutually exclusive with habitual sin. I enjoy a good theological debate as much as the next guy but at some point you just have to let an impasse like this drift into the stacks.

You will either be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, there can be no question of that. You will either be the righteousness of God in Christ or lost forever, that's not even a question. What we have been dealing with is eternal security and that is meaningless without justification by grace through faith. I know what your trying to do but I think it's time to let this one go, perhaps we can pick it up another time.

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Because it is possible for a brother to go into perdition such as the example of Judas who is the son of perdition. Paul also taught the same thing as he warned the Roman brethren that they will die if they live according to the flesh Rom 8:13. You must reconcile the whole of Scripture to form your doctrine. Ironically, I used to believe as you do as that was what I was taught in seminary. All of my professors were Reformed in their theology and so I just accepted what I was taught without critically questioning what I was taught. That's how you get good grades; haha! Seriously, only after several years of study on my own did I come to view that it is indeed possible for a regenerate believer to lose his salvation as eternal life is conditional; not unconditional. It took me years to come to that conclusion so I do not expect you to change your mind now; if at any time in the future.

As a practical scenario allow me to propose this. If you were forced to decide whether or not to take the mark of the beast, would you take it? That seems like a ridiculous question but I think it highlights the weakness of your view. The options are:
Yes, you would take it because as a believer you are secure in your salvation and can never lose it. This option however goes against what Scripture teaches happens to anyone who accepts the mark.
No, don't take it because of the consequences spelled out in Rev 14. This option nullifies your belief that a regenerate believer can never lose his salvation.
Yes, take it but it would mean that you were never a believer in the first place. This option calls into question your present salvific status which I imagine would be unsettling to you as I'm sure you consider yourself to be a believer.
And if you answer that the question is irrelevant by claiming that the saints aren't around on the earth at that time because they are all raptured to heaven, do not neglect to notice Rev 14:12 "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus." Whether these are the church-age saints or the tribulation saints is subject to another debate but the fact remains the saints are referenced in this context and are admonished to endure, obey and remain faithful to Jesus rather than worship the beast and accept the mark.