Are we saved by our faith or by faith + something else?

PeaceJoyLove · Oct 8, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
Are we saved by our faith or by faith + something else? Works perhaps? Love and Forgiveness? Baptism? None of the above. We are forever saved by our faith in Christ and ONLY by our faith in Christ. I'll show you.

Our works do not have any part to play in our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9). Our works are a chance for us to be rewarded by God and to show God that we love him and genuine faith in Christ will produce works. But, Christians who have no works were never saved in the first place. They don't have sufficient faith in Christ and it is a dead faith. As Matthew 25:35-40 and James 2:17 says.

Love and forgiveness are not requirements to salvation either. It's true, in Matthew 6:15 and Romans 13:10 we learn that if we do not forgive, we are not forgiven and that love is the fulfillment of the law. But, genuine faith in Christ would exhibit these things. Christians who don't love God and others and do not forgive others were never saved in the first place. Not that they are requirements for salvation.

Baptism is not a requirement for salvation either. Baptism is a chance for parents of an infant or a person of Christ to make a public declaration of faith. Mark 16:16 is NOT saying that baptism is required for salvation. Just look at the next statement in that verse for clarification it says "He who does not believe will be condemned". What Mark 16:16 is saying is that if one believes and is baptized he or she will be saved and if he believes and is not baptized he will still be saved. It doesn't say that baptism is required for salvation. If baptism were required for salvation the next statement in that verse would say something along the lines of "He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned" but, no it just says "but he who does not believe will be condemned." Implying that we are saved by our faith and not by baptism.

So in conclusion, the only way to interpret the entire bible is that we are saved by our faith and ONLY by our faith in Jesus Christ. You can not name a single verse in the bible that says that ANYTHING else is required for salvation. What do you think?

Noah's flood is a picture of baptism...washing/cleansing/overcoming of the world. Faith is believing/hoping for the things God promised to become our reality...the image being revealed in the mirror. He can only give us what we hope for/seek...“Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" With God all things are possible...

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

JacksBratt · Oct 8, 2017

thecolorsblend said:
1 Corinthians 13:2 talks about St. Paul being nothing if he doesn't have love, even if his faith could move mountains.

This all depends on what he means when he says "I am nothing", does it not?

There will be people, tried and judged by fire when they enter heaven and who will be left with nothing... Yet they will still have their salvation.

thecolorsblend said:
1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38 & 22:16, Romans 6:3–4 and probably others are pretty clear about baptism being necessary for salvation.

I can see nothing in these verses, or the context they are written in, that places baptism anything but an important act... but not essential for salvation.

thecolorsblend said:
The parable of the unforgiving servant in St. Matthew 18 ties our forgiveness from God to the forgiveness we give others. "And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts." The same thing is implicitly true with the Lord's Prayer -- forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us -- which is simply not reconciliable with sola fide, full-stop.

I truly believe that we will be judged by Christ, using the same metrics we judge others in our life. Those who forgive and accept an apology easily and often will receive the same treatment from Christ. Those who hold all their loved ones, fellow workers, random acquaintances and others to harsh, rigid and strict guidelines and determine whether they will or won't forgive them... will receive the same strict and solid treatment from Christ at their judgement.

However, this does not indicate that these people, after their judgement, will not be forgiven... does it?

thecolorsblend said:
This is the stuff I could think of off the top of my head. There's probably more. But this idea of "faith alone" in Luther's conception of the phrase is simply untenable and unworkable. Shrugging off all these passages denying sola fide because they deny sola fide is simply lazy scholarship, pure and simple.

Then again, sola fide is kind of self-defeating anyway. Believe is a verb, after all.

Well there are a lot of scholars out there who think differently than each other...

I will stand on the view that we are saved by Faith....

the new creature we become is the work of Christ... some will do amazing things... others, will have changes barely noticeable to all but their closest loved ones...

The struggles of the heart are not for us to judge... How much "works" a person does as evidence of their faith is, also, not ours to judge.

In the end.... Satan is the accuser, Jesus is our defender, God is our judge.

Neostarwcc · Oct 8, 2017

thecolorsblend said:
Well, your soul is your own business... but you might want to get baptized. It's what sacred scripture commands us to do as part of the normative means of salvation.

But, the thief on the cross next to our Lord was never baptized and he was saved.

readywriter · Oct 8, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
Are we saved by our faith or by faith + something else? Works perhaps? Love and Forgiveness? Baptism? None of the above. We are forever saved by our faith in Christ and ONLY by our faith in Christ. I'll show you.... ... ...

... ... So in conclusion, the only way to interpret the entire bible is that we are saved by our faith and ONLY by our faith in Jesus Christ. You can not name a single verse in the bible that says that ANYTHING else is required for salvation. What do you think?

@mmbattlestar

Hello there,

The following verses say that we are saved by 'the faith of Christ':-

'Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Jesus Christ,
that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.'
(Gal.2:16)

'And be found in Him,
not having mine own righteousness,
which is of the law,
but that which is through the faith of Christ,
the righteousness which is of God by faith:'
(Php.3:9)

* We believe God concerning His Son our Lord Jesus Christ, but it is His faith which saves us. The faith that took Him to the cross, to take the penalty of our sin upon Himself, and die in our place, to rise again also and ascend to the right hand of God the Father, thereby opening the way for us to rise again also, to resurrection life on that day of God's choosing.

* We truly are His Workmanship.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

samir · Oct 8, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
How can you claim to know this...?

I know faith alone isn't enough because scripture clearly says it's not enough in over 100 passages throughout the bible. Read a few books and you should see it too.

Are you negligent of the fact that those kind of judgment's can only be made by God alone and on an individual by individual basis...?

God made the judgment and revealed it in scripture.

Why is faith not enough in your eyes...?

It's not enough in God's eyes. It's not my opinion.

And how do you judge who is faithful, from unfaithful or not faithful...?

God makes that judgment.

samir · Oct 8, 2017

redleghunter said:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

Excellent verse! Thanks for confirming that faith alone is not enough for salvation.

thecolorsblend · Oct 8, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
But, the thief on the cross next to our Lord was never baptized and he was saved.

That's a good point. Should he have told the Romans to take him down off the cross so that he could go get baptized?

disciple1 · Oct 8, 2017

redleghunter said:
What type of love?

Is Jesus Christ the only way to the Father?

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

You may have to study the bible more though, to do this.

Sir Robbins · Oct 8, 2017

it's tough to argue being saved by works as there are many disabled, hurt, sick and isolated people who cannot do such. There are many whom live alone and are tired of being treated poorly and abandoned and thus God becomes their only trust and source of Love. Many continue to use the phrase "God is enough". Enough for what? There are people out there who have and Love God but continue to suffer everyday alone, no family and often no friends. They have faith in Him and to think faith and Love and reliance on Him are not enough would conclude a mass amount of people are destined to an eternity of what they already know on earth which is hard for me to believe.

Kenny'sID · Oct 8, 2017

redleghunter said:
Meaning "they" were already His brethren.

Same question I already posed on the parable of the sheep and the goats. Can we "not" do the works Christ said we must do there and still get to heaven? Those works being taking care of the poor/needy.

samir · Oct 8, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
But, the thief on the cross next to our Lord was never baptized and he was saved.

Poor logic. Look up exception fallacy. Baptism is necessary for salvation. The thief being saved without it is irrelevant.

faroukfarouk · Oct 8, 2017

rpsibew110 said:
What is the definition of faith?

Thankfully, the Bible contains a clear definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Simply put, the biblical definition of faith is “trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove.”

The writer to the Hebrews indeed stresses the faith aspect; he keeps repeating "by faith", "by faith", "by faith"... in Hebrews 11, right?

samir · Oct 8, 2017

Sir Robbins said:
it's tough to argue being saved by works as there are many disabled, hurt, sick and isolated people who cannot do such.

Those people can do many good works such as believing, praying, and being thankful for what God has provided.

There are many whom live alone and are tired of being treated poorly and abandoned and thus God becomes their only trust and source of Love.

Trusting in God is a good work. So is refraining from sin (and everyone is tempted to sin).

Many continue to use the phrase "God is enough". Enough for what? There are people out there who have and Love God but continue to suffer everyday alone, no family and often no friends. They have faith in Him and to think faith and Love and reliance on Him are not enough would conclude a mass amount of people are destined to an eternity of what they already know on earth which is hard for me to believe.

If they love God above all else and love their neighbors as themselves their good works will save them. If they have faith but don't love God (they're ungrateful, refuse to conform their thoughts to God's will, etc.) then they won't be saved because faith is not enough for salvation.

JWO · Oct 8, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
We are forever saved by our faith in Christ and ONLY by our faith in Christ.

That depends on what you mean by faith. Abraham was tested, and passed the test. The test was do what God told him to do. You can't say you believe someone if you never take their advice.

Butch5 · Oct 8, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
Are we saved by our faith or by faith + something else? Works perhaps? Love and Forgiveness? Baptism? None of the above. We are forever saved by our faith in Christ and ONLY by our faith in Christ. I'll show you.

Actually, we're saved by God. It's through faith.

Our works do not have any part to play in our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9). Our works are a chance for us to be rewarded by God and to show God that we love him and genuine faith in Christ will produce works. But, Christians who have no works were never saved in the first place. They don't have sufficient faith in Christ and it is a dead faith. As Matthew 25:35-40 and James 2:17 says.

You have Ephesians 2:8 out of context.

Love and forgiveness are not requirements to salvation either. It's true, in Matthew 6:15 and Romans 13:10 we learn that if we do not forgive, we are not forgiven and that love is the fulfillment of the law. But, genuine faith in Christ would exhibit these things. Christians who don't love God and others and do not forgive others were never saved in the first place. Not that they are requirements for salvation.

Really, where do you see that? If love was guaranteed by genuine faith then there's no reason to mention it.

Baptism is not a requirement for salvation either. Baptism is a chance for parents of an infant or a person of Christ to make a public declaration of faith. Mark 16:16 is NOT saying that baptism is required for salvation. Just look at the next statement in that verse for clarification it says "He who does not believe will be condemned". What Mark 16:16 is saying is that if one believes and is baptized he or she will be saved and if he believes and is not baptized he will still be saved. It doesn't say that baptism is required for salvation. If baptism were required for salvation the next statement in that verse would say something along the lines of "He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned" but, no it just says "but he who does not believe will be condemned." Implying that we are saved by our faith and not by baptism.

Your argument is a from silence which is a fallacy. The passage say he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Believes and baptized are present tense. Shall be saved is future tense. There is no way around the grammar in this passage. Baptism precedes salvation.

So in conclusion, the only way to interpret the entire bible is that we are saved by our faith and ONLY by our faith in Jesus Christ. You can not name a single verse in the bible that says that ANYTHING else is required for salvation. What do you think?

Actually, that's not the Bible that's Martin Luther's theology. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find a statement that says one is saved by faith alone. Actually, the only mention of faith alone in the Scriptures says that man is not saved by faith alone.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 8, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
Are we saved by our faith or by faith + something else?

Are we saved by our faith or by faith + something else?Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mmbattlestar, Friday at 7:42 AM.

For comparison, to think about towards what is right and truth.

IF we wanted to be Bangru,
"Are we Bangru by our faith, or by faith + something else?" (birth certificate, passport, visa, certificate of authenticity...... )

Or how many can be in the Greenback Party ?
List of political parties in the United States - Wikipedia

One more example: "Are we Americans by faith, or by faith + something else?"

Oh, wait, MOST people on earth ARE NOT Americans.
Neither are most people Bangru.
Nor are many, if any in the Greenback Party.

2 of those - American and Bangru, would be by birth. (not counting legal changes)

By birth.

Someone born in America, how much 'faith or faith +' do you need to be American ?

(hint: none)

Someone born a Bangru, how much 'faith' or anything else do you need to be Bangru?

(hint: none)

Sir Robbins · Oct 8, 2017

samir said:
Those people can do many good works such as believing, praying, and being thankful for what God has provided.

I think you are misunderstanding what "good works" refers too but that's ok. I did not spell out as I should have. If those you mentioned are considered "good works" then the response I have is DUH.... those were not what I was referring too. It was more geared on missions, ect.

redleghunter · Oct 8, 2017

disciple1 said:
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

You may have to study the bible more though, to do this.

You really did not address the question.

Do good Muslims enter into the Kingdom of God if they feed and clothe the poor?

redleghunter · Oct 8, 2017

samir said:
Excellent verse! Thanks for confirming that faith alone is not enough for salvation.

The point of the verse is the Object of faith.

disciple1 · Oct 8, 2017

redleghunter said:
You really did not address the question.

Do good Muslims enter into the Kingdom of God if they feed and clothe the poor?

redleghunter said:
Do good Muslims enter into the Kingdom of God if they feed and clothe the poor?

I believe so if they have love.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 14
The entire law is summed up in a single command love your neighbor as yourself.

Romans chapter2 verse 26
So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?

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