Science claims universe came from nothing at all!

Subduction Zone said:

A literal belief in the Bible leads to flat Earth beliefs since that is the only way that the Bible describes the Earth.

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Yes, the Bible teaches flat earth.

dad said:

It is one thing for God to create out of nothing. It is another thing to invoke random magic as science does.

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Random magic as opposed to intentional magic?

jesus316 said:

Yes, the Bible teaches flat earth.

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Yet the earth is round. The bible contains many false teachings.

Subduction Zone said:

Do any Christians take dad's rantings seriously?

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Not me; I old earth, pro-science.

PeterRobertson said:

The universe is commonly defined as everything that exists. If your god is not inside the universe then your god does not exist. QED.

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Nonsense. You can't prove or disprove something using a definition.

Actually here's my definition of "universe": all physical material matter included within the assumed presupposition of all that exists by modern science.

And, presto! God just jumped out of nothing.

PeterRobertson said:

That's rather like creationists not being able to define 'kind'.

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Ha ha..., kinds. What's a kind? Is a wolf/coyote/hyena/dog an example? How about a lion/tiger/housecat/ocelot/cheetah? And then what happened? Rapid evolution?

All evidence observed suggests that the universe expanded from a highly dense state before which was probably a singularity. The only other model states that there is insufficient data to account for the universe before the big bang. Nothing in science states that there was "nothing". Its actually that bible that teaches that. "In the beginning, God said" purposes that there was an instance before time and containing time as designed by God as the canvas for sending vibrational frequencies sufficient enough to stimulate "something" out of nothing. That's what your bible teaches. Don't put that on science because science doesn't claim that. That bible does.

erealmz said:

Yet the earth is round. The bible contains many false teachings.

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It's the interpretations that are false. Fiction is neither true nor false; rather, it's, well..., fiction.

Joseph Campbell: "Myth is that which never was and yet always is."

TBDude65 said:

We don't know that the universe requires a cause.

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Excellent point. The philosophy of Aristotle fails to be of any use for this question.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

People are free to assume creation if they wish, and there are plenty of creationists out there - so where are their contributions to the body of scientific knowledge?

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Good point. Intelligent Design is far worse; it's merely the sentence: "It was designed by a designer".

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

Max Tegmark is usually interesting and provocative. He has an even more interesting 'Mathematical Universe' hypothesis that proposes that the physical universe is mathematics; i.e. it's made of (Gödel-complete) mathematics.

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I find it intriguing that physics uses mathematics. Some philosophers consider mathematics as pure intuition (or some such idea), not grounded in matter. If the universe is mathematics, maybe this suggests something like Idealism (not my view) or Dualism (my view).

Kylie said:

I don't need to have a complete understanding of something before I can be confident that it is true. I am confident that relativity is true, even though I have not traveled very fast to see if I get back to Earth younger than my daughter.

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Yes, the essence of Induction and Abduction. I accept science, but I am also a Christian because I've collected enough subjective evidence to be convincing.

Kylie said:

The problem is, however, that if God uses entirely natural processes, then there is nothing for which God is required, since it can be explained entirely with those natural processes.

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Yes.

erealmz said:

Yet the earth is round. The bible contains many false teachings.

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Of course it does.

Speedwell said:

No, only a difference in attitude. Everyone has his own internal "theory of everthing" with which he tries to make sense of what is going on around him. Some of these "points of view" include a god, or gods, the putative existence of these entities being a unifying assumption. To that extent, the actual (as potentially demonstrable by the scientific method) existence of a diety is almost irrelevant.

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Yet by your own admission, some people's "theory of everything" includes a God who is not needed. These people believe in a god simply because they want to use that god as an explanatory device. That does not make something real.

A late remark in reaction to the topic title:
Science doesn't claim anything, some scientists (people) do.
These people are devout naturalists, who can't cope with the concept of origins.

Radrook said:

That he is restricted to work within the confines of laws that he can easily temporarily suspend is illogical since it places an almighty being under restrictions that he can easily ignore or circumvent by temporarily canceling or simply overpowering them. For example, Jesus walking on water could have been accomplished by temporarily changing the consistency of the water over which Jesus was stepping.

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Two things...

The laws that govern our universe are much like the parameters of a computer program. An example: I use Photoshop quite a bit, as my mum is a photographer and I do a lot of the post processing work for her. In Photoshop, I can choose a colour by entering the RGB values. Each value for the Red, the green and the blue is somewhere between 0 and 255. I am not able to set a value of 260, no matter how much I try. No one can, even the people who built the program. Anyone using the program is constrained by the parameters of the program. And any God interacting with the universe would be limited by the parameters of the universe.

But let's say that God could get past that (although I've never seen anything more than special pleading to argue that). Some kind of holy cheat codes, if you will. If those cheat codes can change the way the universe works, then surely that is something we could detect. The change in consistency of water is a measurable change. Why do we not see any such changes? EVER?

Another mistake is imagining that the almighty has to enter the universe he created personally in order to manipulate things inside. That's like saying that humans cannot control their own machines at a distance but that they must enter them or be near or there with them to control them.

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I never said God had to enter our universe to make those changes (although I think the Bible makes it pretty clear that he did). But the CHANGES happened inside our universe, and so were bound by the universe's limitation. To continue your analogy, yes, humans can operate machines from a distance - but the machines MUST operate within their parameters! I can control my television from a distance, but I can't get it to cook me dinner.

BTW
The Bible indicates that what we cal our material universe, or the heave of heavens cannot contain the creator.

2 Chronicles 6:18 ►
New International Version
"But will God really dwell on earth with humans? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built

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Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

And later on in that chapter, God bares his "back parts" to Moses. Sure sounds to me like God has some physical presence in this universe...

jesus316 said:

Yes, the essence of Induction and Abduction. I accept science, but I am also a Christian because I've collected enough subjective evidence to be convincing.

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How can it be evidence if you admit it is subjective?

It's not evidence, it's opinion. Opinions don't make facts.

Hieronymus said:

A late remark in reaction to the topic title:
Science doesn't claim anything, some scientists (people) do.
These people are devout naturalists, who can't cope with the concept of origins.

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I suspect you look on science as a body of knowledge, like it's written in a book called, "This is true!"

It's not.

Science is a process, carried out by people. That process leads to conclusions. IF many people reach the same conclusions, then it is evidence the conclusion is true.