Science claims universe came from nothing at all!

Speedwell said:

Wrong. All you can conclude by that is that there is no god whose existence is demonstrable using the scientific method. My point was that it is the lack of demonstrability which makes such a God unacceptable to creationists--the object of creationism being to force an acknowlegement of the existence of a particular God from those who would not otherwise be inclined to give it.

Even a God who is thought to suspend natural law only occasionally (like for miracles, etc.) would be unacceptable because those are exceptions, and you can't force belief in such a God using science.

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But having such a God, who is unobservable using science, is indistinguishable from not having a God at all. There's no perceivable difference.

Radrook said:

Please keep in mind that what you are referring to as natural processes are processes that this being is believed to have created himself. In other words, before he created them he was doing just fine.

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Yeah, HE was, but what about when he wanted to do things in the universe? Wouldn't he have to work by the rules of the universe he created?

Furthermore, certain Bible students forget that the holy sprit is described as a force a that God uses to create or to do his will in general such as to inspire people to write down his thoughts or move things such as the Red Sea... I don't see why I should feel under any type of logical obligation to categorize the utilization of a force that predates the natural forces and was used to create them as magic.

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Why wouldn't it count as magic?

Neither does such a myopic viewpoint dovetail with the current hypothetical speculations of physicists who propose that our natural laws might be local and not incumbent on other universes or dimensions. So that idea that we need the laws of our observed universe to get things done doesn't even harmonize with current scientific thinking.

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But that only works if you go outside our universe. God's actions, which took place within our universe, obviously don't fall into that category.

Kylie said:

But having such a God, who is unobservable using science, is indistinguishable from not having a God at all. There's no perceivable difference.

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No, only a difference in attitude. Everyone has his own internal "theory of everthing" with which he tries to make sense of what is going on around him. Some of these "points of view" include a god, or gods, the putative existence of these entities being a unifying assumption. To that extent, the actual (as potentially demonstrable by the scientific method) existence of a diety is almost irrelevant.

Kylie said:

Yeah, HE was, but what about when he wanted to do things in the universe? Wouldn't he have to work by the rules of the universe he created?



Why wouldn't it count as magic?



But that only works if you go outside our universe. God's actions, which took place within our universe, obviously don't fall into that category.

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That he is restricted to work within the confines of laws that he can easily temporarily suspend is illogical since it places an almighty being under restrictions that he can easily ignore or circumvent by temporarily canceling or simply overpowering them. For example, Jesus walking on water could have been accomplished by temporarily changing the consistency of the water over which Jesus was stepping.

Another mistake is imagining that the almighty has to enter the universe he created personally in order to manipulate things inside. That's like saying that humans cannot control their own machines at a distance but that they must enter them or be near or there with them to control them.

BTW
The Bible indicates that what we cal our material universe, or the heave of heavens cannot contain the creator.

2 Chronicles 6:18 ►
New International Version
"But will God really dwell on earth with humans? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built

dad said:

It is one thing for God to create out of nothing. It is another thing to invoke random magic as science does.

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Really? Random magic? Is is random magic when the wavefunction of an electron collapses and an electron materializes?

dad said:

Post it, and cut the myth mouthing.

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Insulting post, in my opinion. Unless I'm not familiar with this kind of language pattern in use, which I admit, I am not.

Subduction Zone said:

Once again, when Christian scientists study this they are trying to find out how God made the universe. You try to limit God. Why do you believe in such a limited God?

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I'm not sure this argument is valid. It seems to assume the scientists you refer to are not true scientists. Not all Christian scientists do this.

That said, I believe you have accurately portrayed creationists (or flat earthers, for that matter).

dad said:

Is spiritual nothing? Or would science just consider what it knows nothing about and can't see nothing?

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Actually, Christians no nothing about the goings on in the spiritual realm either. By definition, it's not something that can be known about except through speculation (which I do all the time) or clashing and contradictory interpretations of the Bible (which I also do all the time).

Subduction Zone said:

Why not? Do you understand that matter constantly pops into and out of existence?

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Yes. This fact is never addressed by Christians. They need to explain it by something other than, "God does it". Studying the equations of quantum mechanics would be a good first step.

Subduction Zone said:

That does not leave out the possibility for the existence of something that is not currently understood.

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Yes, the essential attitude for doing science and increasing knowledge -- an open mind.

Chesterton said:

They believe there existed "mechanics" (quantum) which created the universe but they call it "nothing".

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Maybe that is just another word for God?

Chesterton said:

If and when something "pops into existence", it does so because there previously exists something which allows for that. We call that something quantum mechanics, physics, whatever. So it's disingenuous to say stuff comes from nothing.

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I think in discussing things such as "nothing" we should let people define what they mean by the term.

You are correct; I hadn't considered, until your post, that there was actually something (called nothing) existing. I say..., let's call this "nothing", "God", or at least whatever aspect of God is required for a physical material universe to spring into existence.

Subduction Zone said:

The laws of physics are neither a spatial something or a matter nothing. So once again that is about as close to nothing as one can get. It is said to be not possible to even imagine an actual "nothing".

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Hmmm.... I thing you just said, without realizing it, that the laws of physics are God, being as they are outside of matter and space, in the realm you call "nothing". (I call it "something".)

dad said:

Are you forgetting the golden rule of science? Make up anything no matter how foolish or wild, as long as it supports a godless set of conclusions from a godless methodology.

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Weird. I had a completely different view of science.

Just to illustrate my profound alarm:
Are you forgetting the golden rule of biblical interpretation? Make up anything no matter how foolish or wild, as long as it supports a predetermined set of conclusions from pre-scientific era beliefs.

Sorry to say; the modern scientific culture is laughing at Christianity as they flee from the churches. How's that for effective evangelism? Christians need to let science inform their theology (I do this, happy to say.)

dad said:

The problem for you is where the particles actually pop in from and pop out to! That doesn't help you myth man.

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As a born-again, radically-saved, on-fire-for-the-Lord Christian, a Trinitarian and believer in the Nicene Creed, I am happy to declare for all the world to read, that Bible interpretation ignoring science is myth and ignorance.

Subduction Zone said:

Why do creationists have such a hard time understanding science?

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Creationists are the "myth men". From the dictionary: myth = an unfounded or false notion. Creationism is not founded on empirical evidence, nor on the use of the scientific method.

JackRT said:

If that is so, then why cannot the universe itself be equally necessary? After all we know the universe to exist but we can only believe God to exist.

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Yes, this is why I reject Aristotle. Arguments using his philosophy go around in circles.

Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 said:

Video: Arguing God from First Cause[/MEDIA]

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You can't prove God using Aristotle and deduction; who would even think to try such a thing? Doing so implies the philosophical concepts are grander than God. God comes first, philosophy later.

2PhiloVoid said:

It almost sounds like the next thing you'll say is that the earth was, and is, flat.

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It looks flat to me...

Subduction Zone said:

This makes no sense since the Genesis story is myth. Do you want it to be half myth?

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Yes it is myth. I prefer to call it fiction; gets to the heart of the matter that way. No need, really, to consider whether or not the story is ancient.