Creationists are told the flood is true and actually happened,

tas8831

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100%??? Do you consider Science to be infallible?

No I don't - but you are using this book to "prove" a point. As such, you must believe Sykes is correct. So - why?

As far as I know Sykes is accepted by people like Spencer Wells and Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza (Italian-born population geneticst, who has been a professor (now emeritus) at Stanford University since 1970). You are the first person I know of that questions him. I do not know anyone in the Scientific community that questions his book about the 7 daughters of Eve. His book does not contradict the other books people have written on the subject. People with a lot more degrees and knowledge of the subject then you or I have. Unless of course you want to claim that your a expert population geneticst.

Does Sykes say that mitochondrial Eve was the eve of the bible and lived no more than 10,000 yearrs ago in the middle east?

if not, then his claims do NOT support your assertion.

Name-drop all you want - mt Eve does NOT support the bible, and you have still not supported any of your assertions.
Sykes found DNA inside of an tooth that was tens of thousands of years old. He has actually made some substantial break throughs in his area of study. The enamel of the tooth is able to preserve DNA better then any other area in the Body remains. (as far as we know)
Great.

That supports the bible how?
 
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tas8831

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Really, you want to have a discussion about the skeptics Bible? You want to bring Steve Wells into the conversation. Because he is a sell professed skeptic, scoffer and infidel. This is a way of thinking. I am not going to rebuke his book point by point. I am going to rebuke his whole approach as unscientific and unsubstantiated.


Leviticus 11:13-19New International Version (NIV)

13 “‘These are the birds you are to regard as unclean and not eat because they are unclean: the eagle,[a] the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat."



What is the DNA evidence supporting this?

Also - still waiting to see those Hoyle calculations.
 
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tas8831

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tas8831

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Yes I am because the Eve in the Bible is not the out of Africa, time magazine Eve. The Eve in the Bible is a daughter of the out of Africa Eve. Sykes talks about 7 of them in Purpose and the middle east. World wide you can find as many as 18. There are many Edens round the world on land and under the sea. Eden is NOT the Biosphere. Eden in the Bible is a bio diverse eco system. What makes Eden in the Bible so special is that this is where the domestication of plants and animals began. The key word is Botany. From the middle east Science has done extensive research and study on how civilization spread to Europe and the rest of the world.

A study of the silk road is very interesting. Because this is where East and West began to trade and exchange with each other. The silk road is still there and people still travel it today.


That sounds like it is totally out of the bible... and science.....
 
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Speedwell

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Never heard of it.
James Henry Breasted (1865-1935) was one of the leading egyptologists of his day and director of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. The first edition of the book Joshua refers to was published in 1916.
 
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tas8831

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James Henry Breasted (1865-1935) was one of the leading egyptologists of his day and director of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. The first edition of the book Joshua refers to was published in 1916.
Ah - 'science and history book.'
 
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joshua 1 9

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Great! You've suggested that I've beeen duped by the Skeptics bible before, the only time I've ever heard of it is when you periodically bring it up.
So you buy your opinions second hand when you could go direct to the source. As Christians we have the mind of Christ and the Divine thoughts of God. We do not think the way skeptics, scoffers and infidels do.
 
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joshua 1 9

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But "Seven Daughters of Eve" does not confirm the biblical stories, as Tas pointed out.
I can name that tune in ONE note: Haplotypes. I mention that Sykes talks about the Haplotype J. There is an article on the Hebrew Haplotypes on Wiki. The main research for this DNA is at Jerusalem university. Just like if you want to study the botney of ancient plants in the middle east then the experts on that are professors at the Universities in Jerusalem. So Sykes is not a expert on this Haplotype as much as other Professor of Human Genetics.

NOTICE that the J2B3 subclades is dated 5,800 years ago. This is back when Adam and Eve were alive.

"Around 45,000 years before present, a mutation took place in the DNA of a woman who lived in the Near East or Caucasus. Further mutations occurred in the J line, which can be identified as the subclades J1a1 (27,000 yrs ago), J2a (19,000 yrs ago), J2b2 (16,000 years ago), and J2b3 (5,800 yrs ago). Haplogroup J bearers along with persons carrying the T mtDNA clade settled in Europe from the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic." wiki
 
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tas8831

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I can name that tune in ONE note: Haplotypes. I mention that Sykes talks about the Haplotype J. There is an article on the Hebrew Haplotypes on Wiki. The main research for this DNA is at Jerusalem university. Just like if you want to study the botney of ancient plants in the middle east then the experts on that are professors at the Universities in Jerusalem. So Sykes is not a expert on this Haplotype as much as other Professor of Human Genetics.

NOTICE that the J2B3 subclades is dated 5,800 years ago. This is back when Adam and Eve were alive.

Within the field of medical genetics, certain polymorphisms specific to haplogroup J have been associated with Leber's hereditary optic neuropathy.

There is a lesson in there...

"Around 45,000 years before present, a mutation took place in the DNA of a woman who lived in the Near East or Caucasus. Further mutations occurred in the J line, which can be identified as the subclades J1a1 (27,000 yrs ago), J2a (19,000 yrs ago), J2b2 (16,000 years ago), and J2b3 (5,800 yrs ago). Haplogroup J bearers along with persons carrying the T mtDNA clade settled in Europe from the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic." wiki

I see a lot of cherry picking going on here.

So, is it correct to conclude that you believe that Eve was a real woman, but NOT the originally 'created' woman, and that there were people alive on earth well prior to the creation timeline according to various lineage-tracking/listing antics?
 
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tas8831

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Leviticus 11:13-19New International Version (NIV)

13 “‘These are the birds you are to regard as unclean and not eat because they are unclean: the eagle,[a] the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat."



What is the DNA evidence supporting this?

Also - still waiting to see those Hoyle calculations.


So I guess Leviticus is from the Skeptics Bible?
 
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joshua 1 9

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So, is it correct to conclude that you believe that Eve was a real woman, but NOT the originally 'created' woman, and that there were people alive on earth well prior to the creation timeline according to various lineage-tracking/listing antics?
I believe that is the best conclusion that you are capable of concluding. Adam and Eve were an original in many many ways. They were the first man & the first women, the first husband and the first wife. They were not the first human male and female.

The first J hapotype mutation took place around 40,000 years ago and that is when humans first went from Africa to the Middle East. However many generations that took. We have three artifact that go back 40,000 years: Sowing Needles, fishing hooks and fishing nets. We know that they were able to come up out of Africa because they were able to make clothing to keep warm. We find some remains of some clothing in the bogs of England. Their clothing even had color in it and they had jewelry. For the most part though clothing does not hold up very well from that far back. There is the mention of animal skin clothing in the book of Genesis in regard to Adam and Eve.

Perhaps it took God 200,000 years to create Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. We are looking at the finished product when God looked to see what He had done. "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. " Genesis 1:3 In the beginning, in Eden what God had made was very good but we know that everything went down hill very fast from there.
 
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joshua 1 9

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if not, then his claims do NOT support your assertion.
I am only required to go a mile with you and you have about 5,000 miles to go.

Your job is to show the contradiction. I said there is no contradiction. Science and the Bible are in perfect agreement. Bryan Sykes and Science talks about a common ancestor. The Bible talks about common ancestor. They are all in agreement because they are all talking about common ancestors. I can not really make it anymore simple for you then that.

ma·tri·arch
ˈmātrēˌärk/
noun
  1. a woman who is the head of a family or tribe.
pa·tri·arch
ˈpātrēˌärk/
noun
  1. 1.
    the male head of a family or tribe.
  2. 2.
    any of those biblical figures regarded as fathers of the human race, especially Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, their forefathers, or the sons of Jacob.
    synonyms: senior figure, father, paterfamilias, leader, elder
 
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tas8831

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I believe that is the best conclusion that you are capable of concluding. Adam and Eve were an original in many many ways. They were the first man & the first women, the first husband and the first wife. They were not the first human male and female.

Well now you've gone totally extra-biblical and I leave you in the hands of the self-proclaimed 'real Christians.'
 
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PsychoSarah

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So you buy your opinions second hand when you could go direct to the source. As Christians we have the mind of Christ and the Divine thoughts of God. We do not think the way skeptics, scoffers and infidels do.
XD consider for a few minutes how this would sound coming from someone of a different religion from yourself. Actually, I'll try to write it out for you:

"Why observe the world around you and test it when my ancient book clearly has all the answers. Of course, only people that believe in this book will recognize that reality fits it, because Giant Bear God fills the minds of non-believers with fecal matter so that all their views are distorted and don't matter. Our brains are not encumbered with poo, and thus our opinions are better than yours and you can't possibly demonstrate otherwise because this books says so."

Every single time a person says believers have something elevating their thoughts above non-believers, it sounds like that. It sounds ridiculous. It sounds arrogant. It shows an unwillingness to even consider the position of the other side as worth consideration. Most importantly, it isn't a valid argument for one's own position.
 
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joshua 1 9

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"Why observe the world around you and test it when my ancient book clearly has all the answers.
You have it 100% wrong. The scientific method gives us a way to test the Bible so we can have a proper understanding of the message that the Bible has for our generation today.

Again we have to go where the evidence takes us. We can not rewrite the Bible, the Bible remains the same for well over 3500 years now. We can not change the scientific evidence that we have. For example if we go to the ancient city of Jericho we have to work with what we find using the modern method of archaeology. In this case archaeology agrees with the Bible. In fact for over 100 years they have used archaeology to verify that the Bible is 100% accurate and true. Today we get to use DNA to verify that the Bible is 100% accurate and true. The Bible is FILLED with genealogies and the DNA evidence shows us how accurate the genealogies in the Bible are. All the Hebrews and all the Muslims have Abraham for their patriarch just like the Bible says. The Muslims also have Hagar the Egyptian women for their Patriarch. The DNA and the Bible agree again.

If you are a skeptic, scoffer or infidel then your job is to show us where the Bible is NOT accurate and true. Falsify the Bible using science. Show us where the Bible is not 100% accurate and true. Problem is you can not do that. No one can. You only sing the song of you can not prove it is true. Even if you were right you can not prove that the Bible is NOT accurate and true. That means it could be.

Some people like to say so what if the Bible is an accurate History book. The Bible is all history, the thing is we learn from the stories truth that we fan apply to our lives. We learn how to live and what God expects from us by our study of the History of the people that went before us in past generation. If you do not learn the lesson of history they you are destine to repeat their mistakes.
 
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Jimmy D

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So you buy your opinions second hand when you could go direct to the source. As Christians we have the mind of Christ and the Divine thoughts of God. We do not think the way skeptics, scoffers and infidels do.

Wind your neck in, I can form my own opinions.

It seems that your interpretation of Sykes book would conflict with what the bible says about Eve's creation. Where exactly does he mention anyone being created in some sort of weird rib operation?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Where exactly does he mention anyone being created in some sort of weird rib operation?
A discussion on hematopoietic stem cells found in bone marrow is a little beyond me. Just where do you feel this contradicts the Bible? Moses tells us: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood," Leviticus 17:11
 
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PsychoSarah

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You have it 100% wrong. The scientific method gives us a way to test the Bible so we can have a proper understanding of the message that the Bible has for our generation today.
-_- no, even if the scientific method had been designed specifically to test the bible, the very nature of the scientific method demands that conclusions not be presupposed. That is, if you are testing the bible scientifically while assuming the bible is right, you aren't using science correctly.

Again we have to go where the evidence takes us. We can not rewrite the Bible, the Bible remains the same for well over 3500 years now.
This is simply not true. Since the various books of the bible were originally stories told orally, it is inevitable that even by the time they were written down that the stories changed. Heck, the reason why the story of Saul and David is so strange is because of the fact that various groups of people had different versions to tell, and they all wanted it represented, even at the cost of impacting the quality of the story. We don't even have original versions of the written bible to compare modern ones too, and yet we can still tell there have been various changes to it throughout history based on the oldest examples we have. Heck, in 1684, Christian religious leaders got together and removed more than 10 books from the bible in the process of standardizing it, because they got tired of different churches preaching different things. And no change in 3500 years? I guess you don't consider the addition of the entire New Testament to be "change".


We can not change the scientific evidence that we have. For example if we go to the ancient city of Jericho we have to work with what we find using the modern method of archaeology. In this case archaeology agrees with the Bible.
From what I was able to find, the archaeology is largely inconclusive, due to the limited amount of remains. However, the bible doesn't always agree with history. For example, the wandering of Moses with so many people in tow would have had to have left behind evidence, yet we find none and the numbers reported by the bible are ridiculously high. Myths are known to utilize real places and events from time to time, so having referenced some real events doesn't excuse the fact that the bible is not particularly accurate about history.


In fact for over 100 years they have used archaeology to verify that the Bible is 100% accurate and true.
Except when the bible entirely flops at representing history... and culture, for that matter. It completely botches Egyptian culture.


Today we get to use DNA to verify that the Bible is 100% accurate and true.
-_- not sure what you are talking about, since the only way in which DNA is relevant to the contents of the bible that I can think of is how it conflicts with the Noah's ark story. That is, that organisms on this planet are too genetically diverse for it to be an accurate representation of an event.


The Bible is FILLED with genealogies and the DNA evidence shows us how accurate the genealogies in the Bible are. All the Hebrews and all the Muslims have Abraham for their patriarch just like the Bible says.
Pfft, the bible doesn't even mention Muslims, which aren't a race, by the way. Furthermore, we'd need Abraham's DNA to confirm that, and we don't have it.


The Muslims also have Hagar the Egyptian women for their Patriarch. The DNA and the Bible agree again.
The term is matriarch when it's a woman, and again, we don't have her DNA, so we can't confirm that. Furthermore, I looked up genetic studies done in the Middle East, and the groups there actually have differing genetic heritages. So, all Hebrew people don't share the same patriarch at all, etc.

If you are a skeptic, scoffer or infidel then your job is to show us where the Bible is NOT accurate and true.
Not really my job, that makes it sound like I am actually obligated to participate in these debates.


Falsify the Bible using science. Show us where the Bible is not 100% accurate and true.
The bible makes a multitude of claims, so to act as if I can or need to falsify the whole thing is rather silly. But, the easiest way to demonstrate that the bible not only isn't 100% accurate and true, but that it's actually impossible for it to be 100% accurate and true, is the multitude of contradictions in it.
GE 11:12 Arpachshad [Arphaxad] was the father of Shelah.
LK 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad was the grandfather of Shelah.

GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born.
GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time).
GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years.

GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen.
EX 33:20, JN 1:18, 1JN 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God's face and live. No one has ever seen him.

GE 36:11 The sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz.
GE 36:15-16 Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kenaz.
1CH 1:35-36 Teman, Omar, Zephi, Gatam, Kenaz, Timna, and Amalek

GE 50:13 Jacob was buried in a cave at Machpelah bought from Ephron the Hittite.
AC 7:15-16 He was buried in the sepulchre at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor.

EX 3:1 Jethro was the father-in-law of Moses.
NU 10:29, JG 4:11 (KJV) Hobab was the father-in-law of Moses.

Indisputably, the bible is terrible with numbers and keeping track of lineages. It's just not easy to notice it when its different books of the bible conflicting with each other and when it is a matter of details most people wouldn't dedicate to memory.


Problem is you can not do that. No one can. You only sing the song of you can not prove it is true. Even if you were right you can not prove that the Bible is NOT accurate and true. That means it could be.
Again, you are treating the bible as if it is just 1 claim and not a multitude of them. Does getting how many kids such and such had incorrectly mean your god can't exist?

Some people like to say so what if the Bible is an accurate History book.
It sincerely isn't. I would actually be very impressed if there were a collection of texts that got so much ancient history correct, and would not be dismissive of it.

The Bible is all history, the thing is we learn from the stories truth that we fan apply to our lives. We learn how to live and what God expects from us by our study of the History of the people that went before us in past generation. If you do not learn the lesson of history they you are destine to repeat their mistakes.
I highly doubt I am going to accidentally break up a fight between my fiance and some other guy, and accidentally grab the other guy's penis. Lots of the situations in the bible are extremely specific and unrealistic.
 
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joshua 1 9

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That is, if you are testing the bible scientifically while assuming the bible is right, you aren't using science correctly.
We can not assume the Bible is right until we can properly interpret or translate the Bible. We know that at the time of Noah there was no world wide flood. We have to look at the evidence that science gives us to understand Noah's flood and find the meaning and application of Noah's story to our lives today.
Since the various books of the bible were originally stories told orally
Does not matter, we trust Moses to be inspired by God. We have every reason to believe that Moses got it 100% correct because you can not show that Moses did not get it correct. We are still waiting on you to show us that the Bible is NOT 100% accurate and correct.
various groups of people had different versions to tell
Bingo if this were true you would have a story to tell. Only problem is there are no internal conflicts in the Bible. We have every reason to believe as you suggest that the various writers should conflict with each other. Only problem is they don't. I have checked that out many many times, looking for a conflict and there was none.
the bible doesn't always agree with history. For example, the wandering of Moses with so many people in tow would have had to have left behind evidence
More unsubstantiated myths from the skeptics and scoffers. There is plenty of evidence for the exodus. I personally have presented tons and tons of evidence but the infidels want to deny the evidence so they can propitiate their myths. Once again the skeptics and scoffers testify against themselves because they are guilty of what they accuse others of.

You really make this to easy, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. If your going to try to present prats you are going to find out that every one of your points has already been refuted a long long time ago. Why not join us in the present instead of getting lost in pasts discussions.
Not really my job,
So you admit you can not falsify the Bible in any way. That is what I thought.
It sincerely isn't.
Present your evidence, show me what you got. Oh wait, you already admitted you are empty handed and you do not have anything.
accidentally grab the other guy's penis.
Yet people castrate male cats all the time. I have no doubt that there are women that want to emasculate men even if your not one of them. Just another example of where there is a literal translation but the symbolic translation is just as valid. I have a feral cat that had kittens and I have neighbors threatening to report me if I do not get every one of those cats neutered or spayed. I kinda wonder about people like that if they do not have some sort of personal issues going on.
it's actually impossible for it to be 100% accurate and true,
Of course it is impossible if God were not a part of it. That is exactly what we are trying to show you. Every prat you come up with has already been refuted. All you have to do is run a google search to see just how easy it is to refute your prats.
It sincerely isn't.
Yet you can not produce even one example. For well over 100 years they have been using archaeology to prove that the Bible is 100% accurate and true. Now they are using evolutionary theory, Biology, Botany, and the study of DNA to show that the Bible is absolute truth with conflict or contradictions.

I have been on this board for years and not once has anyone come up with anything to show that the Bible is not absolute truth. Every prat the skeptics and scoffers dig up has already been refuted many times over. They repeatedly falsify mans traditions and Jesus warns us to "beware of the leaven of the pharisees ". This is how we can know that we are firmly rooted and grounded in the truth.
 
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