Did the earth BECOME formless and void?

ShamashUruk

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If God is a corpereal God and he demands by worhip, then obviously He does not include Himself in the list of restricted gods to worhip, i.e. other humans, wood, silver, gold, etc., etc., etc. I will continue to worhip God, who is in the image and likeness of man.

Other Gods are worshiped as well, so you'd have to absolutely buy into the Bible as other than folk tales.

Idol worship is not limited to "gold, wood" so on, it has to do with having something or someone much more important than (in this case) the Biblical God figure.

However, the 10 commandments are in clay tablet form and not the oldest laws, they are condensed versions of the code of Ur-Nammu and Laws of Hammurabi, so they are a fabrication of those earlier laws.

Either way the Bible fails on this issue of creation, as likeness and image are used to define the creation of humans in the image and likeness of God, God in that sense is not making a difference between himself humans as far as image and likeness are concerned, thus violating the 2nd commandment.
 
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ShamashUruk

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Nope, not at all.

The only reason why I can say I don't follow Ellen White is because so many on these forums believe that is who I follow. We dont believe the same things; I have never heard of this woman until I was accused of following her.

You are grossly mistaken if you think that I think I worship any god that would mate with a woman and produce halfling children - and any doctrine related to that.

Azazel, his use of an avatar serpent, and the fall was one skirmish in the war going on. People keep attaching Azazel as the Dragon - they are not even in the same entity class. Azazel is a watcher, and the alleged "Satan" is a principality, or archon.

And, honestly, I was able to conclude 90% of this from the canon alone. What is the name the Hebrews called the SCAPEGOAT?

God's Word is not as "hocus pocus" as we think; it is straight forward.

Actually "Azazel" is referenced in the Hattat rituals, so when the blood from the bovine is spread on the entrance a goat is sent into the wilderness on the day of atonement. Indicating that Azazel in character is shown as neither negative or positive but as neutral in some aspects regarding Jewish traditions, from their borrowed Hattat rituals, they are earlier seen in Mesopotamia wherein birds are released and blood is shed on their purification days.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Actually "Azazel" is referenced in the Hattat rituals, so when the blood from the bovine is spread on the entrance a goat is sent into the wilderness on the day of atonement. Indicating that Azazel in character is shown as neither negative or positive but as neutral in some aspects regarding Jewish traditions, from their borrowed Hattat rituals, they are earlier seen in Mesopotamia wherein birds are released and blood is shed on their purification days.

The very reason the tradition uses the SCAPEGOAT as the vector for the atonement is because of many different reasons - but not because of neutrality at all. Perhaps the tradition has looked upon the scapegoat as the neutral vector, but it represents the entity that caused the part of the fall with which we are most familiar - Azazel. The ritual mirrors what Raphael does to Azazel the angel because of his avatar serpent antics:

1 Enoch 10:4-7
And further the Lord said to Raphael: “Bind Azazel by his hands and his feet, and throw him into the darkness. And split open the desert which is in Dudael, and throw him there. And throw on him jagged and sharp stones, and cover him with darkness; and let him stay there for ever, and cover his face, that he may not see light, and that on the great day of judgment he may be hurled into the fire. And restore the earth which the angels have ruined, and announce the restoration of the earth, for I shall restore the earth...
Leviticus 16:8-10
And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

 
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ShamashUruk

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The very reason the tradition uses the SCAPEGOAT as the vector for the atonement is because of many different reasons - but not because of neutrality at all. Perhaps the tradition has looked upon the scapegoat as the neutral vector, but it represents the entity that caused the part of the fall with which we are most familiar - Azazel. The ritual mirrors what Raphael does to Azazel the angel because of his avatar serpent antics:

1 Enoch 10:4-7
And further the Lord said to Raphael: “Bind Azazel by his hands and his feet, and throw him into the darkness. And split open the desert which is in Dudael, and throw him there. And throw on him jagged and sharp stones, and cover him with darkness; and let him stay there for ever, and cover his face, that he may not see light, and that on the great day of judgment he may be hurled into the fire. And restore the earth which the angels have ruined, and announce the restoration of the earth, for I shall restore the earth...
Leviticus 16:8-10
And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.


Azazel lives in the wilderness in Jewish folklore, so the goat is dispatched to the wilderness, no texts give whether the goat is a sacrifice or not. Jews were not allowed to sacrifice goats to entities as it were.

You give reference to Leviticus and Enoch, which is fine, however, you miss the point that the ancient Israelite's didn't originally participate in the day of atonement it had already been happening for years.

See here for more explanation.
 

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Ygrene Imref

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Azazel lives in the wilderness in Jewish folklore, so the goat is dispatched to the wilderness, no texts give whether the goat is a sacrifice or not. Jews were not allowed to sacrifice goats to entities as it were.

You give reference to Leviticus and Enoch, which is fine, however, you miss the point that the ancient Israelite's didn't originally participate in the day of atonement it had already been happening for years.

See here for more explanation.

I am not opening the documents, but the Day of Atonement was given by God to Moses as a command. Our degeneracy keeps us ignorant of the fact that we know what is right and wrong. It was always the thing to do - atonement.

In the same way, the Sabbath was established before it was a formal command later. In fact, God was training them for that law when He told them to pick the manna every day EXCEPT the seventh day.

Atonement could be argued that it happened in Leviticus 10, but by that logic one could say atonement was when the Word of God killed two animals for Adam and Eve - for their transgression and consequential knowledge/judgment of nakedness.

It is connected to the event that began it all - and what was spiritually done (e.g. what Raphael did to Azazel when he wholly beguiled man.) Traditions are traditions; if that was what was in the files I would argue vehemently against a spiritual argument from the perspective of human tradition anyway.
 
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ShamashUruk

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I am not opening the documents, but the Day of Atonement was given by God to Moses as a command. Our degeneracy keeps us ignorant of the fact that we know what is right and wrong. It was always the thing to do - atonement.

In the same way, the Sabbath was established before it was a formal command later. In fact, God was training them for that law when He told them to pick the manna every day EXCEPT the seventh day.

Atonement could be argued that it happened in Leviticus 10, but by that logic one could say atonement was when the Word of God killed two animals for Adam and Eve - for their transgression and consequential knowledge/judgment of nakedness.

It is connected to the event that began it all - and what was spiritually done (e.g. what Raphael did to Azazel when he wholly beguiled man.) Traditions are traditions; if that was what was in the files I would argue vehemently against a spiritual argument from the perspective of human tradition anyway.

Close, good try, but not so much. In Leviticus 16 we see the biblical disposal rites, which is a dispatch of the scapegoat, concerning the day of atonement. This day is important in the Old Testament, so let's look at its significance.

Note: The scapegoat is the goat dispatched to the wilderness on that day and the term derives from an incorrect interpretation of the term Azazel.

This rite would seek to remove evils which is why it is the day of atonement.

This is a secondary part of a larger two-part purification rite on the day of atonement. So Aaron purifies the Tabernacle with blood from Hattat sacrifices. Blood from a bull is brought for him and his household and the benefit goes to the adytum (holy place of the Tabernacle), and sprinkles some of the blood on the Kapporet and then 7 times on the floor before the kapporet (Leviticus 16:14). He repeats this action with blood from a Hattat goat brought for the people (Leviticus 16:15), this blood is from an earlier rite for YHWH as opposed to the scapegoat which was designated for "Azazel" (Leviticus 16:18).

He purifies the shrine (room east of the most holy place) with blood (Leviticus 16:16b). Leviticus 16 doesn't indicate how this is done, it most likely refers to the phrase "thus shall he do the Tent of Meeting" in verse 16b refers back to the Hattat rite detailed in Leviticus 4:5-7, 16-18, which prescribes a 7 fold sprinkling of hattat blood on the floor of the shrine before the veil and then an application of blood to the 4 horns of the incense altar. Aaron is done purifying the shrine, so he goes out to the altar of burnt offering in the court (Leviticus 16:18-19). He'll take blood form the bull and goat and applies it to the horns of the altar, after which he sprinkles blood on the altar 7 times. So all 3 parts are purified now, from most important to the least important, this is shown in annual purgation rites.

The second part of the purification rite will employ the 2nd of the 2 goats brought for the people which was earlier designated by Lot for "Azazel" (vv 8, 10) and the animal is brought forward after the sanctuary purification (v 20). Aaron puts his hand on the animal's head and confesses the sins of the Israelite's, once this is done he has put the sin's on the animals head (v 21) and the goat is sent into the wilderness (vv 21-22).

On this day differing evils are removed. The Hattat blood rites performed in the Adytum, Shrine, and outer altar efface impurity attached to these places. The blood sprinkles remove the impurities of the Israelite's (mittum ot bene yisrael). By putting the blood on the outer altar there is sanctification "from the impurities of the Israelite's (mittum ot bene yisrael, v19b). The shrine is hence purified from impurity and is implied in v 16b (betok tum otam).

There is more and I suggest you read what I posted.

On to Azazel, and there is an issue with this term. Lots are cast for two goats brought for the people, one goat for "YHWH" and one for "Azazel" (v. 8). The goat for "Azazel" is sent out into the wilderness (v 10, 26) hence, what is the meaning of Azazel? The early explanation of the term as meaning (e)scapegoat from ezozel "goat that departs" or the like cannot be accepted. Nor the interpretation of the term as a placed name "precipitous place" or "rugged cliff" or as an abstraction "destruction" or "entire removal" satisfactory. The evidence indicates that Azazel is the name of a God or Demon. This is suggest by the parallelism between the designation for "YHWH" and Azazel" (v. 8). As the former phrase refers to a being, so does the latter. Secondly, the goat is sent out into the wilderness which is a place of habitation for demonic characters. Thirdly, in postbiblical literature, "azazel" appears as a demonic being.

Problem is the etymology of the name is not certain and is best explained as a metathesized form of "zz-l" meaning "fierce God" or "angry God". So Azazel is recognized as a demon, but his character in the rite shouldn't be misunderstood. Caution is taken and not to presume that automatically as a demon he functions like demons in similar rites outside biblical culture. Azazel's demonic nature is shown in the framework of the Priestly literature. The corpus will say little about demonic issues. Apart from the figure Azazel in Lev 16, the only indication that Prisetly writers entertained the idea of demons in Lev 17:7. Here the Israelite's are warned not to offer their sacrifices to goat demons (seirim), instead bring them to God at the sanctuary. This is taken as evidence for a belief in actively functioning demons, but let's look again. The term seirim is used in this verse in a pejorative sense, subtly criticizing and undermining the support efficacy of sacrifice to them. So it is doubtful that the use of seirim is a true expression of the belief in active demons.

Depreciatory use of demon terminology is found outside of the Priestly writings and give indirect support to the foregoing skepticism about seirim being real evidence of active demons in Priestly thought. The "song of Moses" depicts Israelite's faithlessness as sacrificing to "demons (sedim), no gods-gods they did not know." We see this in Canaan when the Israelite's enter and sacrifice their sons and daughters to demons (sedim). These examples show demons in a disparaging manner. They do not show by it a belief in real active demons or lesser gods, but use it to characterize the sins of idolatry and its negative value. The demons who Israel sacrificed are nonvital, just as elsewhere idolatrous gods are considered to be nothing more than wood, stone, metal. It's possible that sedim, seirim in (Leviticus 17) should be understood as a term specially chosen to polemicize against potential Israelite idolary. Seirim would not indicate a vital object of devotion, but would be a term of devaluation and belittlement.

The was seirim is used in (Leviticus 17) and the general silence about demons in Priestly literature show that there is no room for active demons in priestly theology. Hence, Azazel is viewed as a demon, but an inactive demon with no real role to play in the rite except as a designation to where the sins are dispatched. This is corroborated by the fact that the scapegoat is not an offering. The goat is not decorated for Azazel, and it serves as only a transportation of sins to away from Israel.

I suggest you read the text.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Close, good try, but not so much. In Leviticus 16 we see the biblical disposal rites, which is a dispatch of the scapegoat, concerning the day of atonement. This day is important in the Old Testament, so let's look at its significance.

Note: The scapegoat is the goat dispatched to the wilderness on that day and the term derives from an incorrect interpretation of the term Azazel.

This rite would seek to remove evils which is why it is the day of atonement.

This is a secondary part of a larger two-part purification rite on the day of atonement. So Aaron purifies the Tabernacle with blood from Hattat sacrifices. Blood from a bull is brought for him and his household and the benefit goes to the adytum (holy place of the Tabernacle), and sprinkles some of the blood on the Kapporet and then 7 times on the floor before the kapporet (Leviticus 16:14). He repeats this action with blood from a Hattat goat brought for the people (Leviticus 16:15), this blood is from an earlier rite for YHWH as opposed to the scapegoat which was designated for "Azazel" (Leviticus 16:18).

He purifies the shrine (room east of the most holy place) with blood (Leviticus 16:16b). Leviticus 16 doesn't indicate how this is done, it most likely refers to the phrase "thus shall he do the Tent of Meeting" in verse 16b refers back to the Hattat rite detailed in Leviticus 4:5-7, 16-18, which prescribes a 7 fold sprinkling of hattat blood on the floor of the shrine before the veil and then an application of blood to the 4 horns of the incense altar. Aaron is done purifying the shrine, so he goes out to the altar of burnt offering in the court (Leviticus 16:18-19). He'll take blood form the bull and goat and applies it to the horns of the altar, after which he sprinkles blood on the altar 7 times. So all 3 parts are purified now, from most important to the least important, this is shown in annual purgation rites.

The second part of the purification rite will employ the 2nd of the 2 goats brought for the people which was earlier designated by Lot for "Azazel" (vv 8, 10) and the animal is brought forward after the sanctuary purification (v 20). Aaron puts his hand on the animal's head and confesses the sins of the Israelite's, once this is done he has put the sin's on the animals head (v 21) and the goat is sent into the wilderness (vv 21-22).

On this day differing evils are removed. The Hattat blood rites performed in the Adytum, Shrine, and outer altar efface impurity attached to these places. The blood sprinkles remove the impurities of the Israelite's (mittum ot bene yisrael). By putting the blood on the outer altar there is sanctification "from the impurities of the Israelite's (mittum ot bene yisrael, v19b). The shrine is hence purified from impurity and is implied in v 16b (betok tum otam).

There is more and I suggest you read what I posted.

On to Azazel, and there is an issue with this term. Lots are cast for two goats brought for the people, one goat for "YHWH" and one for "Azazel" (v. 8). The goat for "Azazel" is sent out into the wilderness (v 10, 26) hence, what is the meaning of Azazel? The early explanation of the term as meaning (e)scapegoat from ezozel "goat that departs" or the like cannot be accepted. Nor the interpretation of the term as a placed name "precipitous place" or "rugged cliff" or as an abstraction "destruction" or "entire removal" satisfactory. The evidence indicates that Azazel is the name of a God or Demon. This is suggest by the parallelism between the designation for "YHWH" and Azazel" (v. 8). As the former phrase refers to a being, so does the latter. Secondly, the goat is sent out into the wilderness which is a place of habitation for demonic characters. Thirdly, in postbiblical literature, "azazel" appears as a demonic being.

Problem is the etymology of the name is not certain and is best explained as a metathesized form of "zz-l" meaning "fierce God" or "angry God". So Azazel is recognized as a demon, but his character in the rite shouldn't be misunderstood. Caution is taken and not to presume that automatically as a demon he functions like demons in similar rites outside biblical culture. Azazel's demonic nature is shown in the framework of the Priestly literature. The corpus will say little about demonic issues. Apart from the figure Azazel in Lev 16, the only indication that Prisetly writers entertained the idea of demons in Lev 17:7. Here the Israelite's are warned not to offer their sacrifices to goat demons (seirim), instead bring them to God at the sanctuary. This is taken as evidence for a belief in actively functioning demons, but let's look again. The term seirim is used in this verse in a pejorative sense, subtly criticizing and undermining the support efficacy of sacrifice to them. So it is doubtful that the use of seirim is a true expression of the belief in active demons.

Depreciatory use of demon terminology is found outside of the Priestly writings and give indirect support to the foregoing skepticism about seirim being real evidence of active demons in Priestly thought. The "song of Moses" depicts Israelite's faithlessness as sacrificing to "demons (sedim), no gods-gods they did not know." We see this in Canaan when the Israelite's enter and sacrifice their sons and daughters to demons (sedim). These examples show demons in a disparaging manner. They do not show by it a belief in real active demons or lesser gods, but use it to characterize the sins of idolatry and its negative value. The demons who Israel sacrificed are nonvital, just as elsewhere idolatrous gods are considered to be nothing more than wood, stone, metal. It's possible that sedim, seirim in (Leviticus 17) should be understood as a term specially chosen to polemicize against potential Israelite idolary. Seirim would not indicate a vital object of devotion, but would be a term of devaluation and belittlement.

The was seirim is used in (Leviticus 17) and the general silence about demons in Priestly literature show that there is no room for active demons in priestly theology. Hence, Azazel is viewed as a demon, but an inactive demon with no real role to play in the rite except as a designation to where the sins are dispatched. This is corroborated by the fact that the scapegoat is not an offering. The goat is not decorated for Azazel, and it serves as only a transportation of sins to away from Israel.

I suggest you read the text.

Azazel is not a demon, and fallen angels are not demons. The fallen angels are locked in chains; their offspring are the ones forced to wander in search of a vessel to fill. Azazel is a watcher angel. Demons are the offspring of the angel-human hybrid. If you do not believe that there exists, or existed hybrid entities from unholy and abominable unions between lower-class hosts and humans (directly, or genetically,) then we are arguing from two fundamentally different points of view.

The very fact that scholarly discourse cannot distinguish between demon and fallen angels, archons, principalities and powers suggest a much bigger problem in the faith. Combining and mixing the identities of these different classes of entities is what causes traditional and doctrinal confusion - leading to a jumbling and mistransl(iter)ation of identities.

My original thesis stipulated that Azazel was the one that initiated the deception that led to the fall of man - not the one most think of as "The Devil," or "Satan." That is another type of entity. I am well aware of my controversial point of view; that is my prerogative based on my relationship with my/our Father. I label myself as "other religion" because of this; I do not fit with any denomination. And, if it wasn't for my belief in Christ I wouldn't be a Christian at all (it seems.)
 
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ShamashUruk

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Azazel is not a demon, and fallen angels are not demons. The fallen angels are locked in chains; their offspring are the ones forced to wander in search of a vessel to fill. Azazel is a watcher angel. Demons are the offspring of the angel-human hybrid. If you do not believe that there exists, or existed hybrid entities from unholy and abominable unions between lower-class hosts and humans (directly, or genetically,) then we are arguing from two fundamentally different points of view.


The very fact that scholarly discourse cannot distinguish between demon and fallen angels, archons, principalities and powers suggest a much bigger problem in the faith. Combining and mixing the identities of these different classes of entities is what causes traditional and doctrinal confusion - leading to a jumbling and mistransl(iter)ation of identities.


My original thesis stipulated that Azazel was the one that initiated the deception that led to the fall of man - not the one most think of as "The Devil," or "Satan." That is another type of entity. I am well aware of my controversial point of view; that is my prerogative based on my relationship with my/our Father. I label myself as "other religion" because of this; I do not fit with any denomination. And, if it wasn't for my belief in Christ I wouldn't be a Christian at all (it seems.)


I was addressing the Hattat rituals in Leviticus, but you are addressing a much different topic. Your assertion is that Azazel is a “fallen angel”, of course you do this in a very non scholarly fashion with “surface” evidence, but your assertion fails. You have a timeline issue as well, the Biblical texts and apocryphal texts are written on Papyri (Israel; including Biblical and Apocryphal writings), while Cuneiform (Sumerian, Babylonian, and other Ancient Near East writing) are written and etched in differing timelines.

Papyri writing isn’t until about 3000 BC by the Egyptians, and before that time period about 3100 BC is clay tablet etchings known as Cuneiform. Your Apocryphal and Biblical writings occur on Papyri while Ancient Near East before that time occur on Cuneiform, those Cuneiform epics are part of a polytheistic belief structure, while Papyri (for the most part) indicates monotheism, just another indicator of the adoption of monotheism from polytheism. Essentially there is no “fall” of Angels because when the fall is penned it is long after the Cuneiform writings of Mesopotamia occur, hence, the Biblical stories are reconstructions of the Mesopotamian epics, legends, so on. Hence, your Enochian book is a reconstruct.

You begin your problems asserting then that the Bible is not influenced by Mesopotamian thought, which it is. All the epics, legends, so on in Biblical literature are seen much earlier in Sumer. The first of monotheism that we see is with the Egyptian Ankhet and it is until Israel that we see monotheism after their Babylonian captivity, the Pentateuch is penned by Yahwehistic cult’s (formally named Moses) and so even the apocryphal books suffer this issue. Essentially monotheism develops from older polytheism, we see in Luke 8:25 Jesus as master of storms, and in much earlier Canaan we see Ba’al equated to Yahweh as both are storm Gods, one like the other rides on a cloud.

The origin of Watchers derives from the Mesopotamian epics of the antediluvian sages (apkallus). More precisely, the epics of Watchers and their sons the giants derived from inverted versions of various Mesopotamian epics and beliefs about apkallus. On some layers of Mesopotamian epics and ritual practices, the sages were already regarded as dangerous and potentially malicious creatures, upon which the Jewish authors could build their parody. Among other associations, the apkallus had strong ties to Mesopotamian demonology, and they were occasionally counted as evil beings, capable of witchcraft. This shows that the wickedness of antediluvian teachers of humankind in Jewish sources was not wholly an inversion of the Mesopotamian traditions by Jewish scholars, but was partly taken from already existing trends in Mesopotamian demonology.

Some Keywords to be aware of: Watchers, book of Enoch, Book of Giants, Mesopotamian mythology, demonology, sages.

There was a broad tradition in the Babylonian scribal milieu that the seventh antediluvian gure, a king or a sage, ascended to heaven and received insights into divine wisdom. The seventh antediluvian king according to several lists was Enmeduranki, the king of Sippar, who distinguished himself with divine knowledge from the gods Adad and Shamash (see Lambert 1998). Biblical scholars generally agree that the religious-historical background of the figure of Enoch, the seventh antediluvian patriarch in Gen. 5.23-24 and subsequently the apocalyptic authority in Enochic literature, lies in the seventh Mesopotamian antediluvian king Enmeduranki. The following quotation of John J. Collins conveys the consensus view well:

The figure of Enoch is to some degree modelled on Enmeduranki, founder of the guild of brûs, or Babylonian diviners... Enoch is listed in Genesis as seventh in line from Adam. In the Sumerian King List, the seventh king is Enmeduranki or Enmeduranna. Sippar, the city ruled by this king, was a center of the cult of Shamash, the sun god. Enoch is associated with the solar calendar: his age is given as 365 years in Genesis and the Astronomical Book [contained in 1 Enoch] presupposes a calendar of 364 days. Enmeduranki was also the founder of a guild of diviners and a recipient of revelations... Evidently the biblical seventh man emulates the Mesopotamian seventh king. (Collins 1998: 26, 45-46)

Besides Collins, the complexities of the historical connection between Enmeduranki and Enoch have been recently and comprehensively studied by J. VanderKam (1984) and H. Kvanvig (1988), among others. The recognition has well grown into maturity among scholars, who often also nd the traces of Enoch’s Mesopotamian background even in later Enochic materials, such as the second, Old Slavic book of Enoch, and the third book of Enoch in Hebrew. There is nothing to challenge in this association, except that from the point of view of an Assyriologist it seems that biblical scholars should study and compare the Mesopotamian and Jewish evidence much more systematically than has been done previously. One could cast a much wider net on the Mesopotamian material, in order to glean more insight regarding antediluvian traditions and thereby enrich the comparison. For this objective, it is necessary to expand the textual base of the comparison by using more cuneiform evidence than just the famous king-lists, the Gilgamesh epic, and the Enmeduranki text from Nineveh.

One question that immediately arises in regard to the present stage of consensus among biblical scholars is, if religious-historical bonds tie Enoch so neatly with Enmeduranki, and Ziusudra with Noah, how can it be that there is so little else in the two antediluvian histories that can be favorably compared? Some ancient testimonies recognize that the biblical and the ‘Chaldaean’ accounts of the antediluvian period derive from common sources. For example, Cosmas Indico pleustes, the wandering Nestorian monk of the sixth century CE, indicates that a received knowledge existed in his time that the antediluvian patriarchs in the Hebrew Bible correspond to Mesopotamian kings of the same period in regard to their position in corresponding historiographies. Cosmas’s account in his Topographia Christiana 12.3 juxtaposes the biblical patriarchs with the Mesopotamian kings as follows:

The writers of Chaldaean history, more ancient and living farther east, have mentioned in their works both the deluge and the building of the Tower, since they saw that Tower with their own eyes under the process of construction, being no doubt well aware that the men of that time, in fear of another flood, erected it for themselves as a place of refuge and safety. But the men of later times, when they read Moses also, and found that Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred, was the tenth from Adam, they feigned that they also had ten kings, who had reigned 2242 myriads of years... Of these the first was Aloros, that is, Adam; the second Alaapros, Seth; the third, Almdn, Enosh; the fourth, Ammen, Canaan; the fifth Ammegalaros, Mahalaleel; the sixth, Daonos, a keeper of shee;p Jared; the seventh, Euedranchos, Enoch; the eighth, Amempsinanchos, Mathousalah; the ninth, Otiorts, Lamech; the tenth, Xisouthros, Noah. In his time they say the great flood recorded by Moses occurred.”

The epic of Noah is the epic of the earlier flood of Ziusudra and the tower of Babel is the younger version of the older Building of the Ziggurat to the Gods who destroyed it, and the language changes are from the older “Enki confuser of languages”, as interpreted by Sam Noah Kramer.

The names of the Mesopotamian antediluvian kings that Cosmas lists derive from the tradition attested in similar cuneiform king-lists, which were the sources for Berossus. Cosmas may rely on an unidentified fragment of Berossus, but his source seems in any case to be ancient and instructive. Cosmas’ account shows that already the ancient scholars were conscious of the congruence between Jewish and Mesopotamian antediluvian histories, and, at the same time, tried to deflect these similarities by stating that the Chaldaeans learned from Moses. It goes without saying that from our contemporary perspective, Mesopotamia clearly provided the model, which the biblical writers quite creatively followed and modified (see Hallo 1996: 1-17).

In addition to Enmeduranki, the Mesopotamian lore surrounding the flood survivor, variously named as Ziusudra, Atra-hasis or Utanapishti, and his post flood visitor Gilgamesh, has been discussed by the biblical scholars interested in comparative research (Collins 1998:46). However, there is more still to do. By combining evidence from philology and textual sources, from iconography and archaeology, one can show that the descriptions of the antediluvian period in Jewish sources depend even more extensively on the antecedent Mesopotamian mythology and ritual practices. In other words, a survey of recent studies in Assyriology enables more comprehensive juxtaposition of the two corresponding historical narratives. Besides well established and famous texts at both sides, one has seriously to consider the variability of the traditions, and also to observe how the beliefs were put into practice in rituals, prayers and incantations.

Varying accounts of the antediluvian history in the ancient Mesopotamian and Jewish sources should be regarded as results of ancient debates. Not only direct borrowings took place, but also creative reinterpretations, especially on the Jewish side. Some of these creative reinterpretations must have occurred as deliberate inversions of the Mesopotamian source material. The Jewish authors often inverted the Mesopotamian intellectual traditions with the intention of showing the superiority of their own cultural foundations. The present survey will comparatively explore the phenomenon, how Jewish authors systematically discredited the Mesopotamian primordial sages (apkallu in Akkadian) as the Watchers and Nephilim, while making them a part of their national history. In Jewish reinterpretation, Mesopotamian antediluvian sages became illegitimate and wicked teachers of humankind. Moreover, this demonization process was partly built upon the Mesopotamian traditions themselves, as the apkallus were occasionally envisaged as evil beings at least in some Mesopotamian theological quarters, and to inhabit the netherworld (Mallowan 1954: 92). I shall argue that histories of the two related species in their divergent versions cover exactly the same ground. A summary of the history of research and my arguments used in the present study can be outlined as follows:

1. There are two different adaptations of Mesopotamian lore in Genesis in respect to the antediluvian history. One of them is positive and affirmative—the sequence of ten patriarchs before the flood is in accordance with the ten antediluvian kings of Mesopotamian mythology, including Enmeduranki (see Kvanvig 1988). The second adaptation is negative—the antediluvian sages, the Mesopotamian apkallus were demonized as the ‘sons of God’, and their sons Nephilim (Gen. 6.3-4), who in later Enochic literature appear as Watchers and giants, illegitimate teachers of humankind before the ood (see 1 En. 6–8). The Book of Watchers reconciles these two different adaptations by making Enoch in every respect superior to the Watchers.


2. As many kinds of Mesopotamian sciences and technologies were ideologically conceived as originating with antediluvian apkallus, so both Enoch and the Watchers were depicted as antediluvian teaching powers. In so doing, the Jewish authors wanted to depict their national hero as superior to the champions of foreign wisdom.


3. A.D. Kilmer (1987) has already posited Mesopotamian apkallus as the model for the biblical Nephilim, indicating in support of her thesis that the sources ascribe to the Mesopotamian antediluvian sage Adapa an act of hubris, and that daring, and that wicked deeds were ascribed to some postdiluvian sages, which angered the gods. In Genesis 6, the Nephilim exemplify the wicked antediluvian humankind in general (Kilmer 1987: 40). It did not occur to Kilmer that the Mesopotamian tradition of apkallus was deliberately inverted in Genesis, and that the tradition found a full expression in the 1 Enoch. J.T. Milik noted the parallel with the Mesopotamian mythology, when he wrote on 1 Enoch 6: ‘The writer imagines two chiefs of the fallen angels, a king (Šemîhazah) and a sage (Asael), each presiding over about ten Watchers...thus drawing on a Babylonian model of antediluvian kings and sages’ (Milik 1976: 29). The present study offers an expansion of comparative arguments.


4. The apkallus themselves were sometimes viewed negatively as malicious creatures within the Mesopotamian tradition itself. Among other associations, the apkallus had strong ties to Mesopotamian demonology, and they were occasionally counted as demonic and evil beings, capable of witchcraft. This point of comparison shows that the wickedness of antediluvian teachers of humankind was not wholly an inversion of the Mesopotamian traditions by Jewish scholars, but was partly taken from already existing trends in Mesopotamian demonology.


5. Apkallus were often considered as sh-garbed creatures of Ea, who resided in Apsû, the Ocean of Wisdom. The flood punished Watchers and Nephilim. A comparable tradition of the deluge from Mesopotamia survives in the version of the Erra Epic, where Marduk sent the sages down into the Apsû as a consequence of the flood, and ordered them not to come up again (I 147).


6. The names of Gilgamesh, Humbaba and Uta-napishti occur in different recensions of the Book of Giants as names of the gigantic offspring of the Watchers. According to J. Reeves, ‘this represents a bold polemical thrust against the revered traditions of a rival culture’ (Reeves 1992: 126). L.T. Stucken bruck has argued that knowledge of the Epic of Gilgamesh ‘was not restricted to the mere use of names derived from it but is reflected in the broad narrative of BG [= Book of Giants] itself’ (2003: 333). The fact that a Second Temple Jewish text demonizes some characters belonging to Mesopotamian intellectual milieu speaks entirely in favor of the idea of the present study—that deliberate inversions of Mesopotamian traditions was an existing practice among Israelite intellectuals.


7. Figurines of apkallus were buried in boxes as foundation deposits in Mesopotamian buildings in order to avert evil from the house. The term massar, ‘watchers’, is used of these sets of figurines in Akkadian incantations according to ritual texts. This appellation matches the Aramaic term yryn, ‘the wakeful ones’, for both good angels and the Watchers.


8. The ‘sons of God’ in Genesis and the Watchers in Enochic literature are fully divine, as also were the antediluvian apkallus in the Mesopotamian tradition. The four post flood apkallus were ‘of human descent’, which means that apkallus could mate with humans, as the Watchers did. The last one of this group of apkallus, Lu-Nanna, was only ‘two-thirds apkallu’ (Kilmer 1987: 39-40). This exactly matches the status of Gilgamesh in the post-diluvian world, as he also was ‘two-thirds divine, and one-third human’ (I 48). Gilgamesh was remotely related to antediluvian apkallus, as he ‘brought back a message from the antediluvian age’ (I 8). In Jewish terms, he was like one of the giant Nephilim, as exactly the Book of Giants depicts him (Stuckenbruck 2003: 329). There is new supporting cuneiform evidence that Gilgamesh was thought of as having a gigantic stature, his height being 11 cubits (George 2007: 240 l. 34).

Dissemination of the Antediluvian Knowledge: Lawful or Forbidden?

Very well attested ancient Mesopotamian intellectual tradition gives a divine origin in the antediluvian age to all priestly sciences. The period before the deluge was the one of revelation in the Mesopotamian mythology, when the basis of all later knowledge was laid down. The antediluvian sages were culture-heroes, who brought the arts of civilization to the land. During the time that follows this period, nothing new is invented, the original revelation is only transmitted and unfolded (Kvanvig 1988: 201). Oannes and other sages taught all foundations of civilization to antediluvian humankind, as narrated by Berossus.

An important issue reflected upon in the ancient sources in regard to antediluvian knowledge was its survival during the flood and its transmission after it. If only one family escaped from deluge, as was the case in many Mesopotamian as well as Jewish accounts, the flood survivor and his progeny must have been regarded as the transmitters of the antediluvian knowledge to post-diluvian times. Apparently, some sources regard the flood survivor as a descendant of the line of divine apkallus, without being explicitly equated with them. One of the flood survivor’s named in Mesopotamian literature was Atra-hasis, meaning ‘exceedingly wise’, which is also an epithet of the sage Adapa in the Akkadian myth (Izreel 2001: 9 obv. 8’). In the Epic of Gilgamesh XI 197 we learn that Uta-napishti was admitted into the company of the gods only after he had heard their secret lore, and in this context he also bears the epithet atra-hasis (George 2003: 716). The Gilgamesh epic, with its programmatic first line, ‘he who saw the Deep’, presents the hero as the transmitter of the antediluvian wisdom to his contemporary world. There were other thinkable means of preserving the antediluvian knowledge besides making the flood survivor the divine source of it and his visitor its transmitter. Still another way was to conceive apkallus as amphibious fish-like creatures, capable of surviving in the depths of water, and of reemerging from there after the inundation was over. One more way to preserve the knowledge was to inscribe pre-flood wisdom in its entirety on different tablets or stones and either to bury them or to install the knowledge carriers on high places to escape the perdition. In Mesopotamian tradition, such a divine source of information was the Tablet of Destinies, which corresponds to heavenly tablets and the Pargod in 3 Enoch, on which the divine secrets are written (Arbel 2006: 372).
 
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Peter1000

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Other Gods are worshiped as well, so you'd have to absolutely buy into the Bible as other than folk tales.
Ya think. I believe you have put your finger on it. I do believe the Bible as other than folk tales. I believe it is the true tale.

The Ur-Nammu and the Laws of Hammurabi are fabrications of earlier laws given by Adam and/or Enoch.

Your 2nd commandment violation is not valid. If God is corpreal and humans are corporeal, there is a great enough distance between our corporeality and God's Corporeality, that the 2nd commandment is met nicely. And it really does not hinge on your analysis of 'image' and 'likeness', which I disagree with too. Besides the corporeal God gave the 2nd commandment, so He would certainly live within His commandment.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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I was addressing the Hattat rituals in Leviticus, but you are addressing a much different topic. Your assertion is that Azazel is a “fallen angel”, of course you do this in a very non scholarly fashion with “surface” evidence, but your assertion fails. You have a timeline issue as well, the Biblical texts and apocryphal texts are written on Papyri (Israel; including Biblical and Apocryphal writings), while Cuneiform (Sumerian, Babylonian, and other Ancient Near East writing) are written and etched in differing timelines.

Papyri writing isn’t until about 3000 BC by the Egyptians, and before that time period about 3100 BC is clay tablet etchings known as Cuneiform. Your Apocryphal and Biblical writings occur on Papyri while Ancient Near East before that time occur on Cuneiform, those Cuneiform epics are part of a polytheistic belief structure, while Papyri (for the most part) indicates monotheism, just another indicator of the adoption of monotheism from polytheism. Essentially there is no “fall” of Angels because when the fall is penned it is long after the Cuneiform writings of Mesopotamia occur, hence, the Biblical stories are reconstructions of the Mesopotamian epics, legends, so on. Hence, your Enochian book is a reconstruct.

You begin your problems asserting then that the Bible is not influenced by Mesopotamian thought, which it is. All the epics, legends, so on in Biblical literature are seen much earlier in Sumer. The first of monotheism that we see is with the Egyptian Ankhet and it is until Israel that we see monotheism after their Babylonian captivity, the Pentateuch is penned by Yahwehistic cult’s (formally named Moses) and so even the apocryphal books suffer this issue. Essentially monotheism develops from older polytheism, we see in Luke 8:25 Jesus as master of storms, and in much earlier Canaan we see Ba’al equated to Yahweh as both are storm Gods, one like the other rides on a cloud.

The origin of Watchers derives from the Mesopotamian epics of the antediluvian sages (apkallus). More precisely, the epics of Watchers and their sons the giants derived from inverted versions of various Mesopotamian epics and beliefs about apkallus. On some layers of Mesopotamian epics and ritual practices, the sages were already regarded as dangerous and potentially malicious creatures, upon which the Jewish authors could build their parody. Among other associations, the apkallus had strong ties to Mesopotamian demonology, and they were occasionally counted as evil beings, capable of witchcraft. This shows that the wickedness of antediluvian teachers of humankind in Jewish sources was not wholly an inversion of the Mesopotamian traditions by Jewish scholars, but was partly taken from already existing trends in Mesopotamian demonology.

Some Keywords to be aware of: Watchers, book of Enoch, Book of Giants, Mesopotamian mythology, demonology, sages.

There was a broad tradition in the Babylonian scribal milieu that the seventh antediluvian gure, a king or a sage, ascended to heaven and received insights into divine wisdom. The seventh antediluvian king according to several lists was Enmeduranki, the king of Sippar, who distinguished himself with divine knowledge from the gods Adad and Shamash (see Lambert 1998). Biblical scholars generally agree that the religious-historical background of the figure of Enoch, the seventh antediluvian patriarch in Gen. 5.23-24 and subsequently the apocalyptic authority in Enochic literature, lies in the seventh Mesopotamian antediluvian king Enmeduranki. The following quotation of John J. Collins conveys the consensus view well:

The figure of Enoch is to some degree modelled on Enmeduranki, founder of the guild of brûs, or Babylonian diviners... Enoch is listed in Genesis as seventh in line from Adam. In the Sumerian King List, the seventh king is Enmeduranki or Enmeduranna. Sippar, the city ruled by this king, was a center of the cult of Shamash, the sun god. Enoch is associated with the solar calendar: his age is given as 365 years in Genesis and the Astronomical Book [contained in 1 Enoch] presupposes a calendar of 364 days. Enmeduranki was also the founder of a guild of diviners and a recipient of revelations... Evidently the biblical seventh man emulates the Mesopotamian seventh king. (Collins 1998: 26, 45-46)

Besides Collins, the complexities of the historical connection between Enmeduranki and Enoch have been recently and comprehensively studied by J. VanderKam (1984) and H. Kvanvig (1988), among others. The recognition has well grown into maturity among scholars, who often also nd the traces of Enoch’s Mesopotamian background even in later Enochic materials, such as the second, Old Slavic book of Enoch, and the third book of Enoch in Hebrew. There is nothing to challenge in this association, except that from the point of view of an Assyriologist it seems that biblical scholars should study and compare the Mesopotamian and Jewish evidence much more systematically than has been done previously. One could cast a much wider net on the Mesopotamian material, in order to glean more insight regarding antediluvian traditions and thereby enrich the comparison. For this objective, it is necessary to expand the textual base of the comparison by using more cuneiform evidence than just the famous king-lists, the Gilgamesh epic, and the Enmeduranki text from Nineveh.

One question that immediately arises in regard to the present stage of consensus among biblical scholars is, if religious-historical bonds tie Enoch so neatly with Enmeduranki, and Ziusudra with Noah, how can it be that there is so little else in the two antediluvian histories that can be favorably compared? Some ancient testimonies recognize that the biblical and the ‘Chaldaean’ accounts of the antediluvian period derive from common sources. For example, Cosmas Indico pleustes, the wandering Nestorian monk of the sixth century CE, indicates that a received knowledge existed in his time that the antediluvian patriarchs in the Hebrew Bible correspond to Mesopotamian kings of the same period in regard to their position in corresponding historiographies. Cosmas’s account in his Topographia Christiana 12.3 juxtaposes the biblical patriarchs with the Mesopotamian kings as follows:

The writers of Chaldaean history, more ancient and living farther east, have mentioned in their works both the deluge and the building of the Tower, since they saw that Tower with their own eyes under the process of construction, being no doubt well aware that the men of that time, in fear of another flood, erected it for themselves as a place of refuge and safety. But the men of later times, when they read Moses also, and found that Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred, was the tenth from Adam, they feigned that they also had ten kings, who had reigned 2242 myriads of years... Of these the first was Aloros, that is, Adam; the second Alaapros, Seth; the third, Almdn, Enosh; the fourth, Ammen, Canaan; the fifth Ammegalaros, Mahalaleel; the sixth, Daonos, a keeper of shee;p Jared; the seventh, Euedranchos, Enoch; the eighth, Amempsinanchos, Mathousalah; the ninth, Otiorts, Lamech; the tenth, Xisouthros, Noah. In his time they say the great flood recorded by Moses occurred.”

The epic of Noah is the epic of the earlier flood of Ziusudra and the tower of Babel is the younger version of the older Building of the Ziggurat to the Gods who destroyed it, and the language changes are from the older “Enki confuser of languages”, as interpreted by Sam Noah Kramer.

The names of the Mesopotamian antediluvian kings that Cosmas lists derive from the tradition attested in similar cuneiform king-lists, which were the sources for Berossus. Cosmas may rely on an unidentified fragment of Berossus, but his source seems in any case to be ancient and instructive. Cosmas’ account shows that already the ancient scholars were conscious of the congruence between Jewish and Mesopotamian antediluvian histories, and, at the same time, tried to deflect these similarities by stating that the Chaldaeans learned from Moses. It goes without saying that from our contemporary perspective, Mesopotamia clearly provided the model, which the biblical writers quite creatively followed and modified (see Hallo 1996: 1-17).

In addition to Enmeduranki, the Mesopotamian lore surrounding the flood survivor, variously named as Ziusudra, Atra-hasis or Utanapishti, and his post flood visitor Gilgamesh, has been discussed by the biblical scholars interested in comparative research (Collins 1998:46). However, there is more still to do. By combining evidence from philology and textual sources, from iconography and archaeology, one can show that the descriptions of the antediluvian period in Jewish sources depend even more extensively on the antecedent Mesopotamian mythology and ritual practices. In other words, a survey of recent studies in Assyriology enables more comprehensive juxtaposition of the two corresponding historical narratives. Besides well established and famous texts at both sides, one has seriously to consider the variability of the traditions, and also to observe how the beliefs were put into practice in rituals, prayers and incantations.

Varying accounts of the antediluvian history in the ancient Mesopotamian and Jewish sources should be regarded as results of ancient debates. Not only direct borrowings took place, but also creative reinterpretations, especially on the Jewish side. Some of these creative reinterpretations must have occurred as deliberate inversions of the Mesopotamian source material. The Jewish authors often inverted the Mesopotamian intellectual traditions with the intention of showing the superiority of their own cultural foundations. The present survey will comparatively explore the phenomenon, how Jewish authors systematically discredited the Mesopotamian primordial sages (apkallu in Akkadian) as the Watchers and Nephilim, while making them a part of their national history. In Jewish reinterpretation, Mesopotamian antediluvian sages became illegitimate and wicked teachers of humankind. Moreover, this demonization process was partly built upon the Mesopotamian traditions themselves, as the apkallus were occasionally envisaged as evil beings at least in some Mesopotamian theological quarters, and to inhabit the netherworld (Mallowan 1954: 92). I shall argue that histories of the two related species in their divergent versions cover exactly the same ground. A summary of the history of research and my arguments used in the present study can be outlined as follows:

1. There are two different adaptations of Mesopotamian lore in Genesis in respect to the antediluvian history. One of them is positive and affirmative—the sequence of ten patriarchs before the flood is in accordance with the ten antediluvian kings of Mesopotamian mythology, including Enmeduranki (see Kvanvig 1988). The second adaptation is negative—the antediluvian sages, the Mesopotamian apkallus were demonized as the ‘sons of God’, and their sons Nephilim (Gen. 6.3-4), who in later Enochic literature appear as Watchers and giants, illegitimate teachers of humankind before the ood (see 1 En. 6–8). The Book of Watchers reconciles these two different adaptations by making Enoch in every respect superior to the Watchers.


2. As many kinds of Mesopotamian sciences and technologies were ideologically conceived as originating with antediluvian apkallus, so both Enoch and the Watchers were depicted as antediluvian teaching powers. In so doing, the Jewish authors wanted to depict their national hero as superior to the champions of foreign wisdom.


3. A.D. Kilmer (1987) has already posited Mesopotamian apkallus as the model for the biblical Nephilim, indicating in support of her thesis that the sources ascribe to the Mesopotamian antediluvian sage Adapa an act of hubris, and that daring, and that wicked deeds were ascribed to some postdiluvian sages, which angered the gods. In Genesis 6, the Nephilim exemplify the wicked antediluvian humankind in general (Kilmer 1987: 40). It did not occur to Kilmer that the Mesopotamian tradition of apkallus was deliberately inverted in Genesis, and that the tradition found a full expression in the 1 Enoch. J.T. Milik noted the parallel with the Mesopotamian mythology, when he wrote on 1 Enoch 6: ‘The writer imagines two chiefs of the fallen angels, a king (Šemîhazah) and a sage (Asael), each presiding over about ten Watchers...thus drawing on a Babylonian model of antediluvian kings and sages’ (Milik 1976: 29). The present study offers an expansion of comparative arguments.


4. The apkallus themselves were sometimes viewed negatively as malicious creatures within the Mesopotamian tradition itself. Among other associations, the apkallus had strong ties to Mesopotamian demonology, and they were occasionally counted as demonic and evil beings, capable of witchcraft. This point of comparison shows that the wickedness of antediluvian teachers of humankind was not wholly an inversion of the Mesopotamian traditions by Jewish scholars, but was partly taken from already existing trends in Mesopotamian demonology.


5. Apkallus were often considered as sh-garbed creatures of Ea, who resided in Apsû, the Ocean of Wisdom. The flood punished Watchers and Nephilim. A comparable tradition of the deluge from Mesopotamia survives in the version of the Erra Epic, where Marduk sent the sages down into the Apsû as a consequence of the flood, and ordered them not to come up again (I 147).


6. The names of Gilgamesh, Humbaba and Uta-napishti occur in different recensions of the Book of Giants as names of the gigantic offspring of the Watchers. According to J. Reeves, ‘this represents a bold polemical thrust against the revered traditions of a rival culture’ (Reeves 1992: 126). L.T. Stucken bruck has argued that knowledge of the Epic of Gilgamesh ‘was not restricted to the mere use of names derived from it but is reflected in the broad narrative of BG [= Book of Giants] itself’ (2003: 333). The fact that a Second Temple Jewish text demonizes some characters belonging to Mesopotamian intellectual milieu speaks entirely in favor of the idea of the present study—that deliberate inversions of Mesopotamian traditions was an existing practice among Israelite intellectuals.


7. Figurines of apkallus were buried in boxes as foundation deposits in Mesopotamian buildings in order to avert evil from the house. The term massar, ‘watchers’, is used of these sets of figurines in Akkadian incantations according to ritual texts. This appellation matches the Aramaic term yryn, ‘the wakeful ones’, for both good angels and the Watchers.


8. The ‘sons of God’ in Genesis and the Watchers in Enochic literature are fully divine, as also were the antediluvian apkallus in the Mesopotamian tradition. The four post flood apkallus were ‘of human descent’, which means that apkallus could mate with humans, as the Watchers did. The last one of this group of apkallus, Lu-Nanna, was only ‘two-thirds apkallu’ (Kilmer 1987: 39-40). This exactly matches the status of Gilgamesh in the post-diluvian world, as he also was ‘two-thirds divine, and one-third human’ (I 48). Gilgamesh was remotely related to antediluvian apkallus, as he ‘brought back a message from the antediluvian age’ (I 8). In Jewish terms, he was like one of the giant Nephilim, as exactly the Book of Giants depicts him (Stuckenbruck 2003: 329). There is new supporting cuneiform evidence that Gilgamesh was thought of as having a gigantic stature, his height being 11 cubits (George 2007: 240 l. 34).

Dissemination of the Antediluvian Knowledge: Lawful or Forbidden?

Very well attested ancient Mesopotamian intellectual tradition gives a divine origin in the antediluvian age to all priestly sciences. The period before the deluge was the one of revelation in the Mesopotamian mythology, when the basis of all later knowledge was laid down. The antediluvian sages were culture-heroes, who brought the arts of civilization to the land. During the time that follows this period, nothing new is invented, the original revelation is only transmitted and unfolded (Kvanvig 1988: 201). Oannes and other sages taught all foundations of civilization to antediluvian humankind, as narrated by Berossus.

An important issue reflected upon in the ancient sources in regard to antediluvian knowledge was its survival during the flood and its transmission after it. If only one family escaped from deluge, as was the case in many Mesopotamian as well as Jewish accounts, the flood survivor and his progeny must have been regarded as the transmitters of the antediluvian knowledge to post-diluvian times. Apparently, some sources regard the flood survivor as a descendant of the line of divine apkallus, without being explicitly equated with them. One of the flood survivor’s named in Mesopotamian literature was Atra-hasis, meaning ‘exceedingly wise’, which is also an epithet of the sage Adapa in the Akkadian myth (Izreel 2001: 9 obv. 8’). In the Epic of Gilgamesh XI 197 we learn that Uta-napishti was admitted into the company of the gods only after he had heard their secret lore, and in this context he also bears the epithet atra-hasis (George 2003: 716). The Gilgamesh epic, with its programmatic first line, ‘he who saw the Deep’, presents the hero as the transmitter of the antediluvian wisdom to his contemporary world. There were other thinkable means of preserving the antediluvian knowledge besides making the flood survivor the divine source of it and his visitor its transmitter. Still another way was to conceive apkallus as amphibious fish-like creatures, capable of surviving in the depths of water, and of reemerging from there after the inundation was over. One more way to preserve the knowledge was to inscribe pre-flood wisdom in its entirety on different tablets or stones and either to bury them or to install the knowledge carriers on high places to escape the perdition. In Mesopotamian tradition, such a divine source of information was the Tablet of Destinies, which corresponds to heavenly tablets and the Pargod in 3 Enoch, on which the divine secrets are written (Arbel 2006: 372).

I told you I was arguing something different - definitely not tradition or scholarship and canonicity.

It is interesting that scholarship is one of the things Christ tells us to run from in terms of interpreting the Word of God (we are told to discern using the Holy Spirit), yet it is used to justify what is correct and incorrect in an already grossly manipulated canon. Who gave their God-given authority to these men? God didn't; if Any man has authority it is Christ - and He and His Father both say they use the foolish (according to the world) to execute their glory, and do exploits so that the 'wise" of the world cant boast.

Scholarship in a faith-based relationship is ridiculously counter-productive. Am I condoning intellectual and spiritual ignorance? Absolutely not; I am saying that a world institution with humans giving authority to other humans that have studied things other humans have said is hardly spiritual unity or richness. You don't have to be a Christian to be a Christian scholar - or any religious scholar for that matter. That alone presents a danger, considering there are now a plethora of other motivations for one to be a scholar.

How many relationships work when one partner chops up and tries to academically piece together every single iota of the relationship? It doesn't.

I know very much about

  • the history of the Church and its bloody crusade to control canonical text
  • the Hebrews and those who are not actually Hebrews messing with the history and creating/removing doctrine in swindled authority
  • fake texts that are as of now considered scholarly and canonical, and real texts that have been made to be considered deceptions
  • the history of canonicity - how some books today that were once considered heretical are as of now canon, and vice versa
  • the intercultural relationship between legitimate Hebrews, and their proper recognition
  • what the churches have done to people who spoke the truth about God
  • how the church treats its laypersons
  • the translation of the text and when they were written, how it relates to modernity
  • what entities were involved in the scattered mess of documents that contain kernels of truth.
  • et. cetera

I am responsible for the trajectory of my own soul. There is a big difference between talking about "demons and monsters" without experience, and actually perceiving and interacting with these entities. Scholarship, as it were, in faith is contradictory and just as confused as it was when Christ walked the earth.

We can end here if you want; the things you just posted in regards to the non-canon books, time frame, even etymology, translation and human character influence are all things I have had to determine in quality for decades - by grueling experience. As to not derail the thread, I can go through each one of the reasons why you posted what you posted is just as ridiculous as you think my conclusions are unscholarly. Then, once we see how ridiculous we both sound, we can come to a middle ground of understanding. Although, it may not be productive since there is already an assumption of intellectual and theological alignment.

Let's assume we would want to continue in the current engagement; to test the productivity, ask (and answer to) yourself:
1) if you believe the supernatural world (demons, principalities, angels, powers, Christ, God, etc.,)
2) have you ever experienced the supernatural (witness to possession, victim, perception of demons or alleged [familiar] spirits,)
3) Do you believe that other-dimensional entities have been involved in human history in a tangible sense - even since the beguilement?

If you answer no to all three, save the time and we can agree to disagree. If you answered yes to at least two of these, then perhaps we can discuss some things further without meaningless debate.

If you answered yes, but with any condition, we should probably just end it.
 
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ShamashUruk

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Ya think. I believe you have put your finger on it. I do believe the Bible as other than folk tales. I believe it is the true tale.

The Ur-Nammu and the Laws of Hammurabi are fabrications of earlier laws given by Adam and/or Enoch.

Your 2nd commandment violation is not valid. If God is corpreal and humans are corporeal, there is a great enough distance between our corporeality and God's Corporeality, that the 2nd commandment is met nicely. And it really does not hinge on your analysis of 'image' and 'likeness', which I disagree with too. Besides the corporeal God gave the 2nd commandment, so He would certainly live within His commandment.

Corporeal means corporeal there is no distance in it.

So because you believe the Bible in that fashion means what? Nothing.

It's not my "image" and "likeness", Biblical authors penned that, if they weren't trying to cover up that Bible mythology (I know you will get all upset on me) so earnestly it would have been written differently.

Side note: I enjoy our conversations. :)
 
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ShamashUruk

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I told you I was arguing something different - definitely not tradition or scholarship and canonicity.
Yes I am aware and already addressed it.

It is interesting that scholarship is one of the things Christ tells us to run from in terms of interpreting the Word of God (we are told to discern using the Holy Spirit), yet it is used to justify what is correct and incorrect in an already grossly manipulated canon. Who gave their God-given authority to these men? God didn't; if Any man has authority it is Christ - and He and His Father both say they use the foolish (according to the world) to execute their glory, and do exploits so that the 'wise" of the world cant boast. Scholarship in a faith-based relationship is ridiculously counter-productive. Am I condoning intellectual and spiritual ignorance? Absolutely not; I am saying that a world institution with humans giving authority to other humans that have studied things other humans have said is hardly spiritual unity or richness. You don't have to be a Christian to be a Christian scholar - or any religious scholar for that matter. That alone presents a danger, considering there are now a plethora of other motivations for one to be a scholar.
Me being a polytheist cannot obviously agree with the Israelite's reconstructing polytheistic epics, legends and making it their own, so why would you even think my approach is pure academic?

Sorry, but Polytheism came first, and then Monotheism came secondary. Meaning that Monotheism is a copy of Polytheism.

How many relationships work when one partner chops up and tries to academically piece together every single iota of the relationship? It doesn't.
I'm not academically placing anything together, that is just what timelines show and are also studied via Biblical timelines, meaning the Bible itself knows its own errors.

I know very much about the history of the Church and its bloody crusade to control canonical text the Hebrews and those who are not actually Hebrews messing with the history and creating/removing doctrine in swindled authority fake texts that are as of now considered scholarly and canonical, and real texts that have been made to be considered deceptions the history of canonicity - how some books today that were once considered heretical are as of now canon, and vice versa the intercultural relationship between legitimate Hebrews, and their proper recognition what the churches have done to people who spoke the truth about God how the church treats its laypersons the translation of the text and when they were written, how it relates to modernity what entities were involved in the scattered mess of documents that contain kernels of truth. et. cetera

Are you bringing up the crusades? If so that is quite young a story.

The Christian church had rejected the apocryphal texts and adopted others as canon, but this isn't the issue and you are missing the point.

I'm referring to the Pentateuch and its traditions in Polytheism, meaning that Judaism "stole", "borrowed", "adopted" from early Polytheism.


I am responsible for the trajectory of my own soul. There is a big difference between talking about "demons and monsters" without experience, and actually perceiving and interacting with these entities. Scholarship, as it were, in faith is contradictory and just as confused as it was when Christ walked the earth.
Don't know what you mean by "without experience", the Sumerian's would have dealt in the paranormal long before the Israelite's came along. And, long before the Christian myth hero appeared.


We can end here if you want; the things you just posted in regards to the non-canon books, time frame, even etymology, translation and human character influence are all things I have had to determine in quality for decades - by grueling experience. As to not derail the thread, I can go through each one of the reasons why you posted what you posted is just as ridiculous as you think my conclusions are unscholarly. Then, once we see how ridiculous we both sound, we can come to a middle ground of understanding. Although, it may not be productive since there is already an assumption of intellectual and theological alignment.

Let's assume we would want to continue in the current engagement; to test the productivity, ask (and answer to) yourself:
1) if you believe the supernatural world (demons, principalities, angels, powers, Christ, God, etc.,)
2) have you ever experienced the supernatural (witness to possession, victim, perception of demons or alleged [familiar] spirits,)
3) Do you believe that other-dimensional entities have been involved in human history in a tangible sense - even since the beguilement?

If you answer no to all three, save the time and we can agree to disagree. If you answered yes to at least two of these, then perhaps we can discuss some things further without meaningless debate.

If you answered yes, but with any condition, we should probably just end it.

You should conduct research (like I have) in order to make any determinations.

Experience is not the same for everyone, hence experience is not viable. For example: I claim I saw a girl in a red dress, and you claim you saw her in a blue dress, what we both experienced is not the same.

I'm a polytheist and you are a monotheist, so let's see what "ground" we have or even if your line of questioning is relevant.

1) You want to know if I believe in the supernatural world and then you list:

demons
principalities
angels
powers
Christ
God

I will give their earlier equals in Sumer:

demons (protective and evil; are often exercised by Isisb priests)
principalities (I'm guessing "satan", in Sumer there is no adversary systems, so "satan" isn't a concept until the Israelite's)
angels (Spirits from Enlil and Winged Griffiths, hence, 'lil' wind spirits)
powers (This has more than one meaning unless coupled with principalities, please clarify)
Christ (Dumuzid, Enki, Inanna, and others whom the persona of "Christ" reflects in the New Testament)
God (Anu, denoting the proper name from Sumerian culture)

2) I have been involved in rites I consider exorcisms, with the little information you do provide it makes little sense. I follow a strict Sumerian (where people came from) religion, and I consider this the duty of an Isib priest, please elaborate.

3) Have you read Hyperspace? An atheistic scientist postulates the possiblity of other worlds via dimensions the author is Kaku. And, Einstein postulated time travel. There have been a myriad of people who have witnessed and recorded paranormal events, so why would I deny such thing?

Beguilement means very little, because the Biblical creation is an adaptation of the earlier creations.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Yes I am aware and already addressed it.


Me being a polytheist cannot obviously agree with the Israelite's reconstructing polytheistic epics, legends and making it their own, so why would you even think my approach is pure academic?

Sorry, but Polytheism came first, and then Monotheism came secondary. Meaning that Monotheism is a copy of Polytheism.

I'm not academically placing anything together, that is just what timelines show and are also studied via Biblical timelines, meaning the Bible itself knows its own errors.



Are you bringing up the crusades? If so that is quite young a story.

The Christian church had rejected the apocryphal texts and adopted others as canon, but this isn't the issue and you are missing the point.

I'm referring to the Pentateuch and its traditions in Polytheism, meaning that Judaism "stole", "borrowed", "adopted" from early Polytheism.


Don't know what you mean by "without experience", the Sumerian's would have dealt in the paranormal long before the Israelite's came along. And, long before the Christian myth hero appeared.




You should conduct research (like I have) in order to make any determinations.

Experience is not the same for everyone, hence experience is not viable. For example: I claim I saw a girl in a red dress, and you claim you saw her in a blue dress, what we both experienced is not the same.

I'm a polytheist and you are a monotheist, so let's see what "ground" we have or even if your line of questioning is relevant.

1) You want to know if I believe in the supernatural world and then you list:

demons
principalities
angels
powers
Christ
God

I will give their earlier equals in Sumer:

demons (protective and evil; are often exercised by Isisb priests)
principalities (I'm guessing "satan", in Sumer there is no adversary systems, so "satan" isn't a concept until the Israelite's)
angels (Spirits from Enlil and Winged Griffiths, hence, 'lil' wind spirits)
powers (This has more than one meaning unless coupled with principalities, please clarify)
Christ (Dumuzid, Enki, Inanna, and others whom the persona of "Christ" reflects in the New Testament)
God (Anu, denoting the proper name from Sumerian culture)

2) I have been involved in rites I consider exorcisms, with the little information you do provide it makes little sense. I follow a strict Sumerian (where people came from) religion, and I consider this the duty of an Isib priest, please elaborate.

3) Have you read Hyperspace? An atheistic scientist postulates the possiblity of other worlds via dimensions the author is Kaku. And, Einstein postulated time travel. There have been a myriad of people who have witnessed and recorded paranormal events, so why would I deny such thing?

Beguilement means very little, because the Biblical creation is an adaptation of the earlier creations.

So then we can agree to (vehemently) disagree. Cheers.
 
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ShamashUruk

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So then we can agree to (vehemently) disagree. Cheers.

You and I agreeing or disagreeing is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Christianity stole stories, epics, legends, made it their own, and sold it to a targeted audience.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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You and I agreeing or disagreeing is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Christianity stole stories, epics, legends, made it their own, and sold it to a targeted audience.

I am talking about Hebrews - not Christianity. The apocrypha would be Hebrew focused texts - not Christian. Although, from the beginning of the word of the Most High God, all Hebrews were "Christian" in that they knew they would be redeemed by a Christ. It was prophesied as early as Genesis 3:15 when only Adam and Eve were around. Enoch told his children and grandchildren the same thing - Christ and His atonement for man is in the apocrypha.

I know about the cults of Mithra, and the Undefeated Sun, Sumerian texts and that has led you to believe the monstrosity known as Christianity is just a stolen story of other myths. That is because it is, and you are introducing a hackneyed argument - even on the level of a scholar (because, those are also similarly superficial.)

Christianity is a Roman chimera of several existent religions - I agree. In fact, most Christian holiday are based on pagan holidays that the Roman government carried over politically - in order to maintain power. In other words, the cult of Mithra especially, and other religions already existent were combined with pieces of the nativity history, and consolidated them into the same time period.

It was, and has always been a game of political gain from the energy of the people. Even the scholarly approach is futility if you don't realize at the foundation the things that are deception and not profitable to faith at all. But, "Christianity" existed back when Adam and Eve were the only human around - when God told the serpent that he would bruise Christ's heel, and Christ would bruise the serpent's head.

That is real. That is originally Hebrew. It was not stolen, but there sure is successful campaign that has lasted for near all of human history to confuse and confound the validity of the Word of God. And, oldest found doesn't mean oldest ever; Hebrew was an oral culture - so the Word of God stayed with them without them needing to write it down, or create an archive. They had it written on their hearts and minds, and knew how to express His word through means that stuck with someone on multiple dimensions - like song, truth told in story form (i.e. utilizing non-fiction literary devices like parables/metaphor.) The world is deceiving itself by deceiving other, and it catches plenty up in the middle of it all. When I read Gilgamesh in University, my professor has the same argument you present concerning the originality of Christianity. The problem is that both people like him, and some Christian do not realize Christianity is a continuation of the Hebrew culture of following the Word of God - from the beginning of the world.

There were other religion based on other gods at the same time - and they all told similar stories because of something much deeper than "stealing." Much deeper. To begin, those "gods" existed in some form.
 
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ShamashUruk

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I am talking about Hebrews - not Christianity. The apocrypha would be Hebrew focused texts - not Christian. Although, from the beginning of the word of the Most High God, all Hebrews were "Christian" in that they knew they would be redeemed by a Christ. It was prophesied as early as Genesis 3:15 when only Adam and Eve were around. Enoch told his children and grandchildren the same thing - Christ and His atonement for man is in the apocrypha.

I know about the cults of Mithra, and the Undefeated Sun, Sumerian texts and that has led you to believe the monstrosity known as Christianity is just a stolen story of other myths. That is because it is, and you are introducing a hackneyed argument - even on the level of a scholar (because, those are also similarly superficial.)

Christianity is a Roman chimera of several existent religions - I agree. In fact, most Christian holiday are based on pagan holidays that the Roman government carried over politically - in order to maintain power. In other words, the cult of Mithra especially, and other religions already existent were combined with pieces of the nativity history, and consolidated them into the same time period.

It was, and has always been a game of political gain from the energy of the people. Even the scholarly approach is futility if you don't realize at the foundation the things that are deception and not profitable to faith at all. But, "Christianity" existed back when Adam and Eve were the only human around - when God told the serpent that he would bruise Christ's heel, and Christ would bruise the serpent's head.

That is real. That is originally Hebrew. It was not stolen, but there sure is successful campaign that has lasted for near all of human history to confuse and confound the validity of the Word of God. And, oldest found doesn't mean oldest ever; Hebrew was an oral culture - so the Word of God stayed with them without them needing to write it down, or create an archive. They had it written on their hearts and minds, and knew how to express His word through means that stuck with someone on multiple dimensions - like song, truth told in story form (i.e. utilizing non-fiction literary devices like parables/metaphor.) The world is deceiving itself by deceiving other, and it catches plenty up in the middle of it all. When I read Gilgamesh in University, my professor has the same argument you present concerning the originality of Christianity. The problem is that both people like him, and some Christian do not realize Christianity is a continuation of the Hebrew culture of following the Word of God - from the beginning of the world.

There were other religion based on other gods at the same time - and they all told similar stories because of something much deeper than "stealing." Much deeper. To begin, those "gods" existed in some form.

Yes I know what you are addressing, the Hebraic peoples from Canaan. Abraham (a common stock West Semitic name) enters into Canaan from Ur, Ur is a Sumerian city.

Genesis isn't penned until 1700 BC by Yahwehistic cult's (Moses) and is not earlier than Egyptian, Babylonian, or Akkadian Cuneiform.

Mithra isn't until about 1400 BC and is seen later, while Sol Invictus is about 300 BC and traced up to 270 AD, there is no language that predates Sumer, please find a language that does.

Why are you including Roman and Indo-Iranian Polytheism? These are much younger than the Israelite's and obviously so much younger than Sumerian.

Pagan is a dergatory term that was used during the spread of Christianity in Rome, for the term Pagan is a Hick, Country Bumpkin, it's an insult.

The story of Adam and Eve are a consolidation of serpent cult legends, Attum and the creation story, the formation of rib from the God Enki, and other legends including the Babylonian hanging gardens.

Sumerian (Sumerian language, non Semitic, aggulagnative speaking people)

Akkadian (First Semitic languages develop out of Akkad)

Babylon (Semitic speaking people, first astronomers)

Egypt (Descendents of the Sub-Saharans)

Isrealite (Semitic speaking people from Canaan, adopt monotheism from Babylonian captivity, their Moses is said to pen the first five books of the biblical text)

Hittites (Indo-Euro speaking people, descendants of the Hurrians, were not allowed look upon their Gods in true form, we see this with Moses as YHWH passes him)


so on and so on...

Hebrew is a Semitic based tongue, the earlier Semitic based tongue comes out of Akkad, so I don't know what you mean?

Do you even know how many versions of Gilgamesh there are? Gilgamesh is portrayed differently in Sumer than he is in Babylon. In Babylon he defeats Humbaba, in Sumer he defeats Huwawa. There are many differing versions of Gilgamesh, the original may not even have contained the first flood epic of Ziusudra. Woolley discovers the Sumerian tablets in Nippur and translates them.

Culture adopted ideas from culture to culture, religion, society, social norms, laws, so on.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Yes I know what you are addressing, the Hebraic peoples from Canaan. Abraham (a common stock West Semitic name) enters into Canaan from Ur, Ur is a Sumerian city.

Genesis isn't penned until 1700 BC by Yahwehistic cult's (Moses) and is not earlier than Egyptian, Babylonian, or Akkadian Cuneiform.

Mithra isn't until about 1400 BC and is seen later, while Sol Invictus is about 300 BC and traced up to 270 AD, there is no language that predates Sumer, please find a language that does.

Why are you including Roman and Indo-Iranian Polytheism? These are much younger than the Israelite's and obviously so much younger than Sumerian.

Pagan is a dergatory term that was used during the spread of Christianity in Rome, for the term Pagan is a Hick, Country Bumpkin, it's an insult.

The story of Adam and Eve are a consolidation of serpent cult legends, Attum and the creation story, the formation of rib from the God Enki, and other legends including the Babylonian hanging gardens.

Sumerian (Sumerian language, non Semitic, aggulagnative speaking people)

Akkadian (First Semitic languages develop out of Akkad)

Babylon (Semitic speaking people, first astronomers)

Egypt (Descendents of the Sub-Saharans)

Isrealite (Semitic speaking people from Canaan, adopt monotheism from Babylonian captivity, their Moses is said to pen the first five books of the biblical text)

Hittites (Indo-Euro speaking people, descendants of the Hurrians, were not allowed look upon their Gods in true form, we see this with Moses as YHWH passes him)


so on and so on...

Hebrew is a Semitic based tongue, the earlier Semitic based tongue comes out of Akkad, so I don't know what you mean?

Do you even know how many versions of Gilgamesh there are? Gilgamesh is portrayed differently in Sumer than he is in Babylon. In Babylon he defeats Humbaba, in Sumer he defeats Huwawa. There are many differing versions of Gilgamesh, the original may not even have contained the first flood epic of Ziusudra. Woolley discovers the Sumerian tablets in Nippur and translates them.

Culture adopted ideas from culture to culture, religion, society, social norms, laws, so on.

Earliest found does not mean it is the oldest ever, and it certainly doesn't imply a theft because the methods of today have not found, or cannot find an earlier verifiable source. That is the fatal flaw in scholarship in theology; assessing everything fundamentally, one misses the larger picture.

The earliest Hebrews passed down history orally. In fact, it wasn't until Penemue taught men how to write - as well as technological knowledge. And, everywhere else around the world the exact same entities were parading as gods and using the same story, and exhibiting the same displays of power and intellect. The pyramids aren't build that way because they are geometrically cute. And, they aren't in their geological locations because it was convenient. Hebrews are about the only ones that reject these fallen angels, and their offspring; the rest embrace them more or less - either out of fear, tradition or reverence.

As I said, this is much deeper than an issue of copying traditions. We will have to agree to disagree.
 
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ShamashUruk

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The earliest Hebrews passed down history orally. In fact, it wasn't until Penemue taught men how to write - as well as technological knowledge. And, everywhere else around the world the exact same entities were parading as gods and using the same story, and exhibiting the same displays of power and intellect. The pyramids aren't build that way because they are geometrically cute. And, they aren't in their geological locations because it was convenient. Hebrews are about the only ones that reject these fallen angels, and their offspring; the rest embrace them more or less - either out of fear, tradition or reverence.

As I said, this is much deeper than an issue of copying traditions. We will have to agree to disagree.

earliest found does not mean it is the oldest ever
Earliest found means earliest found.
it certainly doesn't imply a theft because the methods of today have not found, or cannot find an earlier verifiable source. That is the fatal flaw in scholarship in theology; assessing everything fundamentally, one misses the larger picture.
When I say "theft" I don't limit this in turn to the Hebraic people, we see total adoptions between cultures.

Then you'd have to find earlier Cuneiform than Sumerian etchings, the only thing possibly earlier are drawings on caves. But, with that we won't see anything religiously.

When I state "earliest", the first civilization comes out of Iraq, the Sumerians. Who are the first agriculutralist, they invent a type of wheel, engage in a firsts of religious ceremonies, before the Sumerian's we only find scattered groups of people.

The only idealic gardens would be the Hanging Gardens in Old Babylon, and we see a sacrifice of fish to the Gods. We also see the first of saviors, as Enki saves Ziusudra from the deluge, he instructs Ziusruda to build a boat.
The earliest Hebrews passed down history orally. In fact, it wasn't until Penemue taught men how to write - as well as technological knowledge. And, everywhere else around the world the exact same entities were parading as gods and using the same story, and exhibiting the same displays of power and intellect.
Sacred texts has a copy of the book of Enoch, and no the Hebrews don't pass traditions down orally explicitly (what is passed down, is what is not written, or attainable). First of writings appear in Akkad, what is not written down is passed orally, but the Akkadian's would have etched in Cuneiform, we don't see this with the Hebraic Semitic's. Also, the book of Enoch is written in Hebrew, and on Papyri, so you now have 2 issues:
1) Papyrus writing is seen earlier in Egypt, and if Enoch is written on Papyri (and it is), then the book is only of Hebraic language, and the Hebrew language or Classical Hebrew or if you will Biblical Hebrew would be attested about 2300 BC, but around 1050 BC they would have began to develop their own language independent of their earlier Phoenician languages. In other words, the first Classical Hebraic language is Canaan, then develops Phoenician, and then from their the Hebraic language is independently developed. Also, the writing of Biblical Hebrew and if you look at linguistics, Hebrew is a defunct Canaanite language. Abraham enter's into Canaan and from there the emergence of the Israelite's are seen.
2) This means that your watcher theory is incorrect, Penemue from what you claim, teaches mean how to write and technological knowledge. The problem is before the Hebrews are on the scene, writing is already an invention. By technological knowledge, which you didn't define, we can take an example, the Sumerian's already invented many tools for agriculture, and there no "angel" that assisted them in doing this. They grew wheat and from beer the later discovery was bread (bread came first and then wheat came later), they would use vessels to dedicate beer to the Gods who would in turn assist in growing their crops of emmer wheat.
The pyramids aren't build that way because they are geometrically cute. And, they aren't in their geological locations because it was convenient. Hebrews are about the only ones that reject these fallen angels, and their offspring; the rest embrace them more or less - either out of fear, tradition or reverence.
I don't think I even brought up Pyramid building. The Egyptians are dark skinned and are Afrocentric, while the Sumerian's are not, they are Sumerian and come from Sumer. Egyptian pyramid building was built for Egyptian royalty, hence why Pharoah's would oft get their own tombs. Sumerian's built Ziggurats, the first being built to Anu their patron Sky God. There's a Sumerian epic of them building a tower to the Gods so they could reach the Gods, Enki, Enlil and other Gods become angry with them and the tower is collapsed or destroyed, a later Biblical epic we see the Babylonian tower built or Babel Tower, the problem is the Babylonian's may have built Ziggurats for Astronomy purposes and less to identify with Godly beings. The Egyptian pyramid building and Ziggurat Sumerian building is not made of the same material, they are not constructed the same way, they don't even have the same purpose.
 
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Peter1000

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You and I agreeing or disagreeing is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Christianity stole stories, epics, legends, made it their own, and sold it to a targeted audience.
The Christians did not steal anything, they inherited the stories from the Jews.
The Jews God and the Christian God are the same God, because Yahweh of the OT is Jesus of the NT. Therefore the stories of the OT are germane to the stories of the NT since the same God is creating both sets of stories.

And the Christians did not inherit epics or legends or fairy tales, or folk tales. What they inherited was the historical facts of the God of the OT as he associated with men and woman on earth.

Atheist scholars believe what you believe. It is not true. The Sumer's were not the first people on earth to think and write. They were ancient, but not the first.
God really does exist, and there is truly only 1 Godhead made up of 3 Gods that created and control the universe. Not an immoral array of gods that fight each other and compete with each other and compete for the fairest mortal virgins, etc., etc., etc.
 
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ShamashUruk

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It is not true. The Sumer's were not the first people on earth to think and write. They were ancient, but not the first.
Please show a civilization that existed pre Sumer.


Before Sumer all we have are scattered groups of people dating to the PPA and PPB, not much else than that.


Atheist scholars believe what you believe
I’m a Polytheist, so I’d like to know what atheist scholars have converted specifically to Sumerian polytheism?

Also, what atheistic authors believe specifically what “I” believe?

God really does exist, and there is truly only 1 Godhead made up of 3 Gods that created and control the universe. Not an immoral array of gods that fight each other and compete with each other and compete for the fairest mortal virgins, etc., etc., etc.

The adaptations of God ruling over Angels in Christian mythology, this is earlier seen in Sumer, one God (Anu) rules over a host of Gods.

I’d like to know what Gods are fighting each other, Enlil becomes enraged with humans and sends a flood, Enki instructs Ziusudra in building a boat to survive the flood, even after the first flood we see Enki giving praise to Enlil. What we don’t see is fighting among the Gods.

Immoral? The Gods would have handed down the laws of Ur-Nammu to the Kings of Ur-Nammu, later on, this Ur-Nammu code is reconstructed later into Jewish mythology as the 10 commandments and apodictic law as well caustic laws of the Exodus, when Moses or better Yahwestic Cultists pen these laws from Hammurabi.

The Christians did not steal anything, they inherited the stories from the Jews.

The Jews God and the Christian God are the same God, because Yahweh of the OT is Jesus of the NT. Therefore the stories of the OT are germane to the stories of the NT since the same God is creating both sets of stories.
Yes they inherited from the Jews, the Jews from the Canaanites, and so on. Hence, why Ba’al is seen as a storm God in Canaan and in Israel YHWH is also a storm God, it’s the same God, same characteristics. Interestingly enough YHWH may have been introduced to the Israelite’s long before the name El was popularized.

This is why Jesus is seen as master of storms, check Luke 8:25, as YHWH is a master of storms, as Ba’al is a master of storms.

And the Christians did not inherit epics or legends or fairy tales, or folk tales. What they inherited was the historical facts of the God of the OT as he associated with men and woman on earth.

What the Israelite’s inherit is epics, legends, so on. See my above statement on YHWH and Ba’al.
 
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