Few will be saved?

Jason0047 said:

Not going to endlessly debate God's laws with you.

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I mean if you wish to read things entirely out of context - relying entirely on the traditions of man forced on us since the 3rd and 4th centuries, go for it.

mmbattlestar said:

What did Jesus mean when he said "few will be saved?" There are billions of Christians out there! Christianity is the largest religion in the world! So surely many will be saved? What are we missing? Discuss.

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Hello Everyone! I am new to this site, so I hope I am welcome and able to voice my beliefs. First of all, Christianity is not a religion..... All religions have man-made rules and regulations, where Christianity is a faith and belief in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior.

Kitten Boo said:

Hello Everyone! I am new to this site, so I hope I am welcome and able to voice my beliefs. First of all, Christianity is not a religion

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Welcome to the forums!

Christianity is considered a religion. What dictionary are you using?

All religions have man-made rules and regulations, where Christianity is a faith and belief in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior.

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That's Protestantism. It was founded based on the teachings of a man named Martin Luther in the 16th century. I don't think belief in a personal Lord and Savior came until later when a man started the Baptist denomination based on his own beliefs. It certainly wasn't what the early Christians believed if you read their writings nor is it taught anywhere in scripture.

Of what faith do you follow samir?

Kitten Boo said:

Of what faith do you follow samir?

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Christianity. I used to be a Protestant for many years but I'm seeking to join a historical Christian church (Catholic or Orthodox) after God led me away from Protestantism.

Great to Here! When did you become born again?

Kitten Boo said:

Great to Here! When did you become born again?

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You mean when was I baptized? That's what born again means according to scripture (John 3). The tradition of a "born again" experience originated much later with one of the Protestant denominations.

Admit you are a sinner; be willing to turn from your sins; believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and rose from the grave; and invite Jesus Christ into your heart and believe in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. When you do this, you are Born Again! Congratuations!

mmbattlestar said:

What did Jesus mean when he said "few will be saved?" There are billions of Christians out there! Christianity is the largest religion in the world! So surely many will be saved? What are we missing? Discuss.

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I ran into that same thought some 15 years ago (after being a Nazarene for 26 years).

Rather than following the doctrines of men who designed the many different followings, I had to start over and realize that only I could find the truth for myself if I trusted the Spirit to show me (rather than those who said it was in their many different religions). It wasn't easy (like just joining a church). And it came with a lot of discomfort.

To go outside of the world church is to explore outside of it's created Bible, but concentrate on only the Gospel (Christ's truth) and Paul (spiritual truth from Christ).

Seek and find was simplistic. These words made more spiritual sense:
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

When I started studying, and hear that the church fathers believed that heaven was in the sky, and hell was subterranean, I started seeing a physical/flesh ignorance .

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

These two verses of greater explanation of Christ sent me on a path to find the truth I could live with. The more I learned away from the Bible (holding onto only Christs words), the more the Gospel message came alive.

The more I learned, the clearer it all became. I believe I am blessed if I barely make it to the lowest heaven, and thrown into a smallest corner to be even near God, whom I know I am not worthy of.

Kitten Boo said:

Admit you are a sinner; be willing to turn from your sins; believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and rose from the grave; and invite Jesus Christ into your heart and believe in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. When you do this, you are Born Again! Congratuations!

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That's a Protestant tradition I'm not interested in following. The early Christians and the historical Christian churches (Catholic and Orthodox) believed the teaching of scripture that a person becomes born again through water when he is baptized. I encourage you to study the early church fathers to see what the earliest Christians believed. They were united and believed what the Catholic and Orthodox church teaches today.

When a person becomes born again (John 3:3 ), he/she become baptized as a symbol/dedication of their belief/faith in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior. Baptism is a personal witness to others that you have become a child of God and will continue to worship and follow him.

mmbattlestar said:

Exactly. We learn the will of the Father in John 6:40:

"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Those unsaved people you were talking about were people who didn't believe in Jesus and instead trusted in their own works to save them. Which is why the next few verses say "Haven't we done many wonderful works?" and if you don't believe in Jesus, Jesus will deny you. Which is why I was asking the question in the first place. There are many people who believe in Jesus and accept Christ as their savior. So why did Christ say few would be saved? The questions been answered though. When you think of it in the percentage of people who have walked the Earth It's a very small percentage of people. Very simple answer to a very simple question.

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To clarify, are you saying that those people Jesus referred to in Matt 7:21-23 didn't believe in Jesus? If so, note that they called him "Lord" which indicates they were believers. Secondly "many" prophesied, cast out demons and did miracles - "in your name" which indicates they were believers as unbelievers are not given the spiritual authority to do such things in Jesus' name. Those unbelievers that attempted to do so were the sons of Sceva who got beaten up for their efforts. In v.23 Jesus himself did not state that they did not believe but instead indicted them because they "practice lawlessness" (NKJV). Thus we can surmise that these were believers who did supernatural works in Jesus name but despite that, were told to depart because they were disobedient and practiced lawlessness. This interpretation would fit into the surrounding context as well as the next verse - v.24 - refers to not only hearing the word but doing/practicing the word. Believers who practice the word, obey the word and do not practice lawlessness. So to answer your original question, even in the body of many believers fewer still will be saved as many do not obey the word.

Instead of being very disrespectful and calling me a moron. Why don't you deal with the the text? Yes they trusted in their works but Jesus indicted them for lawlessness. It's right there in black and white so I suggest that you deal with text instead of resorting to ad hominem arguments and name calling which is against the rules of this forum. If anything your disrespect only serves to weaken your claims.

Kitten Boo said:

Admit you are a sinner; be willing to turn from your sins; believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and rose from the grave; and invite Jesus Christ into your heart and believe in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. When you do this, you are Born Again! Congratuations!

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That's the view of the Neo-Evangelical tradition which is largely the product of 19th century Revivalist and Pietistic ideas, shaped most extensively by Charles Finney, Billy Sunday, Billy Graham, and Bill Bright. This isn't the historic teaching of the Christian Church, and simply isn't how most Christians understand salvation, conversion, and/or the new birth.

There is nothing in Scripture about inviting Jesus into our heart or receiving Him as our "personal" Lord and Savior; or that praying a particular sort of prayer is efficacious to our regeneration. On the contrary, Scripture teaches that we are "saved by grace alone through faith, which is the gift of God, not of ourselves; not of works, so that none may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9), and that the new birth is of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:5), and further "He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5). Along with many other passages which talk about the way in which God acts to affect our salvation which is on account of Christ's own atoning work alone--for we are freely justified, apart from the law, through faith on account of Christ who suffered, died, and rose again. God acts through means to appropriate the work of Christ to us, delivering faith to us (Romans 10:17), namely by the preaching of the Word of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments.

What I've just presented above is the Lutheran view.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

That's the view of the Neo-Evangelical tradition which is largely the product of 19th century Revivalist and Pietistic ideas, shaped most extensively by Charles Finney, Billy Sunday, Billy Graham, and Bill Bright. This isn't the historic teaching of the Christian Church, and simply isn't how most Christians understand salvation, conversion, and/or the new birth.

There is nothing in Scripture about inviting Jesus into our heart or receiving Him as our "personal" Lord and Savior; or that praying a particular sort of prayer is efficacious to our regeneration. On the contrary, Scripture teaches that we are "saved by grace alone through faith, which is the gift of God, not of ourselves; not of works, so that none may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9), and that the new birth is of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:5), and further "He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5). Along with many other passages which talk about the way in which God acts to affect our salvation which is on account of Christ's own atoning work alone--for we are freely justified, apart from the law, through faith on account of Christ who suffered, died, and rose again. God acts through means to appropriate the work of Christ to us, delivering faith to us (Romans 10:17), namely by the preaching of the Word of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments.

What I've just presented above is the Lutheran view.

-CryptoLutheran

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It also says God must first choose you . Then if you accept His invitation, you may proceed with the rest. However it must also be revealed unto you by Jesus Christ if you expect to continue in grace. Not just by grace because faith without works is dead.

he-man said:

It also says God must first choose you .

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Yes, we have been predestined in Christ to eternal election in Him by God's grace and will.

Then if you accept His invitation, you may proceed with the rest.

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Nope. There is no "accepting". It is God who graciously and lovingly accepts us in Christ, not we who accept God. Or rather, the "accepting" on our part is not causal to salvation, but flows from the gift of faith which is given us by the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament; that by the preaching of the Word is given faith; and that this same Word is all the same present in the Holy Sacraments, for in Baptism Christ washes us with water by the Word (Ephesians 5:26), and in the Holy Eucharist Christ gives Himself in and under bread and wine as it is "My body which is for you" and "the new covenant in My blood" (1 Corinthians 11:24-25). As St. Augustine says "Accedat verbum ad elementum et fit sacramentum." ("When the Word is added to the element it becomes a sacrament"), and thus the Sacraments are verbum visibilis "visible Word". Baptism is not Baptism apart from the Word of God, which would make it mere water and not Baptism; the Eucharist is not the Eucharist apart from the Word of God, which would make it mere bread and wine and not the Eucharist. But because of the Word it is what it is, and efficacious to do what God has instituted and established it to do because of His indelible and irrevocable Word (Isaiah 55:11).

-CryptoLutheran

Devin P said:

relying entirely on the traditions of man forced on us since the 3rd and 4th centuries, go for it.

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... This happens all the time for thousands of years, all over the earth, but I would never say "go for it" ... i.e. don't recommend it. Jesus came and on earth and since His resurrection destroyed the works of the devil, setting men who came to Him free from their sin and guilt and shame, not telling them to return to more sin nor to sin more.

"Lord, Lord" is often used in the examples where he is adressing them concerning those who do not the things which he says.

For example here




He then goes onto whosoever "coming to" Him, and who such a one is like that is both hearing him and doing what he says



And its this particular man who is likened to such a one laying the foundation on a rock (in hearing Christ and doing His words)



Whereas to the contrary, this one is without a foundation (which heareth and doeth not Christ's words)



Again here, we see "Lord, Lord" is tied into not doing the will of the Father







The next verse is often cut off by folks, but its followed by a "therefore" in verse 24



And to "the contrary of" building "upon a rock" (as wise) in verse 24, below it is as building "upon the sand" in verse 26 having to do with not doing his sayings



And as it relates to the foundation Paul says,



Which again appears to agree concerning them unknown (versus known) which were adressed by Christ in this manner (in respects to "iniquity")



I have seen the word "never" in the above (in Matthew 7:23) come into dispute so here is another verse besides that one (in Luke 13:27)





So we have Paul saying,"let every one that nameth the name of the Christ
to depart from inquity" and we also have the words Jesus said he would say to these, which was "I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity" (Whether its in Matthew 7:23 or Luke 13:27 )

We also have "In thy name" as is mentioned three times in things believers would also be able to do as is shown in Matthew 7:22 And where it shows he knows not these which say to him "Lord Lord" which say the same in Luke 13:25-27 unto these Jesus says, "I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye that work iniquity". And in 2 Timothy 2:19 Paul confirms the foundation of God standeth sure itself (which is Jesus Christ and his words (in Luke 6:49) and the seal itself in the same, saying, "The Lord knoweth them that are his", and commands them which name the name of Christ (alluded to in Matthew 7:22 three times) to depart from iniquity seeing it shows them which work it are told to depart from him (Jesus Christ) who himself loveth righteousness and hateth iniquity (Hebrews 1:9) I have more on these

But it shows he was sent to bless in turning them away from their inquities



That he might redeem us from all iniquity




Who we yeild ourselves to, as grace is for the obedience of the faith and obedience is unto righteousness



Even when we were once disobedient, grace is for the obedience of the faith



And as ye have yeilded your members to inquity change course be servants of righteousness



And in respects "to charity" which is also the end of the commandment as Paul speaks of it speaks of it (in 1 Timothy 1:5)

Paul also says of charity that it

1 Corinthians 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth

God the Father speaking concerning the Son of God says of him

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

In following the same theme of iniquity in various places

James also adds

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

mmbattlestar said:

What did Jesus mean when he said "few will be saved?"

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Well, for now just know that Jesus said this. The Father will reveal the truth to all He chooses to.

mmbattlestar said:

There are billions of Christians out there!

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This is not what Jesus, Scripture, or the Father in heaven says. (i.e. it is not written, not spoken by Jesus or the Father)

mmbattlestar said:

Christianity is the largest religion in the world!

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So?

mmbattlestar said:

So surely many will be saved?

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I think you saw someone else's post where "many" is yes, many, but relative to how many are lost may be small(few) will be saved, AS JESUS SAYS (today).

mmbattlestar said:

What are we missing?

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Jesus. Hearing YHWH'S WORD. (stick with YHWH'S WORD, not what men say)

mmbattlestar said:

Well when Christ was on the Earth nobody was saved.

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Really? Read the New Testament again, and the Old Testament - I believe there is a wealth of YHWH'S WORD that shows many were saved. (see how the word "many" can mean something different in different contexts - perhaps in the Hebrew language, way of life, and usage it is completely clear - not like in english)

mmbattlestar said:

....It's true Jesus did say whoever believes in him will have Eternal life. Is it just the fact that only a small population of the world believes in him?

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It is a fact today, although small may be "many", a greater number rejects Jesus today , and every day, until He returns in Judgment of them. (then it is too late for them)