Faith or Predestination

RisenInJesus · Oct 3, 2017

Hammster said:
And you are still conflating regeneration and justification. Yes, they believed. It was counted to them as righteousness. But that’s not the same thing as being born again.

Scripture is clear that the natural man cannot please God. It never says that the one and only thing they can do is believe. If so, Paul would have been clear about it in Romans 8.

Those who are living in sin, in the flesh can never please God. Yet God calls all to repent and turn from their wicked ways and believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. This is the theme through the scriptures. Prophets of old preached it, Jesus preached it, John the Baptist preached it, and Paul and all the other apostles preached the same message. I do not believe the words of God are in vain or are so abundantly given if people cannot repent and respond. Nor do I believe you can use one verse here or there without the light of all scripture to continue saying that the natural man cannot repent and be saved. That is what God is about...saving lost men.

I don't believe I am conflating regeneration and justification. In the OT Abraham’s example of faith and justification is the pattern of the justification of all men. God declared him righteous based on his faith and this is the principle on which He declares any man righteous. When God, by a judicial decision, made Abraham a righteous man, He did it on the principle of faith, “that he might be the father of all them that believe” (Romans 4:11). Clearly, in the NT scriptures one who expresses faith in Jesus, is justified by God, and has the righteousness of Christ and His new life imputed to them is also born again. It cannot be otherwise and these cannot be separated as one can't be righteous or have new life in Christ without being justified and reconciled, having peace with God through Jesus' blood (Romans 5)

Paul is clear about this and the need for faith in previous passages in Romans and elsewhere throughout his epistles. He taught and preached to all ungodly sinners, natural men and women, Jew and Gentile wherever he went... For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph. 1:13-14

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” Romans 4:5-8

P.S Thank you for removing all those repetitive posts of mine.

Hammster · Oct 3, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
Those who are living in sin, in the flesh can never please God. Yet God calls all to repent and turn from their wicked ways and believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. This is the theme through the scriptures. Prophets of old preached it, Jesus preached it, John the Baptist preached it, and Paul and all the other apostles preached the same message. I do not believe the words of God are in vain or are so abundantly given if people cannot repent and respond. Nor do I believe you can use one verse here or there without the light of all scripture to continue saying that the natural man cannot repent and be saved. That is what God is about...saving lost men.

I don't believe I am conflating regeneration and justification. In the OT Abraham’s example of faith and justification is the pattern of the justification of all men. God declared him righteous based on his faith and this is the principle on which He declares any man righteous. When God, by a judicial decision, made Abraham a righteous man, He did it on the principle of faith, “that he might be the father of all them that believe” (Romans 4:11). Clearly, in the NT scriptures one who expresses faith in Jesus, is justified by God, and has the righteousness of Christ and His new life imputed to them is also born again. It cannot be otherwise and these cannot be separated as one can't be righteous or have new life in Christ without being justified and reconciled, having peace with God through Jesus' blood (Romans 5)

Paul is clear about this and the need for faith in previous passages in Romans and elsewhere throughout his epistles. He taught and preached to all ungodly sinners, natural men and women, Jew and Gentile wherever he went... For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph. 1:13-14

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” Romans 4:5-8

P.S Thank you for removing all those repetitive posts of mine.

Here’s why I’m saying you’re conflating. You agree on one hand that those in the flesh cannot please God. Yet to show that they can please God, you don’t give examples of regeneration, but justification. I agree that justification is by faith. Scripture is replete with examples. But nowhere are we told that regeneration is by faith. In fact, when Jesus discusses it in John 3, he says

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." - John 3:8

If regeneration was by faith, we would know where it comes from.

DreamerOfTheHeart · Oct 3, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
The scriptures show that Christ died on the cross to pay the penalty for sin and offer reconciliation between God and man, forgiveness, and eternal life to sinful humanity. How does God indicate in His word this gift of salvation and grace is applied to one's life?

I believe that according to the Bible a person is saved by trusting Jesus Christ as their Savior in faith and believing the gospel message that He has paid for the sins of the world, including their personal sins, risen from the grave in victory over sin and death offering forgiveness and eternal life to all who believe.

According to the Calvinistic theology as expressed in TULIP people are so (Totally depraved) that they have no ability to believe the gospel. God predestines, based on no condition (Unconditional election) on the part the person. God selects some people, but not all (Limited atonement), regenerating them and causing them to believe the gospel by (Irresistible grace).

So what do others think the message of the scriptures says about receiving salvation? Is it faith or predestination?

I actually do not think it is useful to get too specific with doctrines of this or that theologian. Take what good they offer, throw out the rest. Maybe someday, more will be found to be useful is how I treat works of theologians of the past.

"Predestination", for instance, is a word I hear at some churches, and some when I was growing up. But, I have not found it useful in my Christian walk.

God makes those good, good. Just as God makes those wealthy, wealthy. Whatever a person has, that is by the hand of God.

If one is not good, then one is not saved.

We pray much in our Christian lives, and we should not find ourselves praying as the one who said "God thank you for not making me be like that bad person", as Jesus said.

We should approach God humbly, aware that we are finite beings who are prone to mistakes.

That is we do not walk forward as a teacher, but as a student. Not to teach, but to learn.

And for those who teach, same is true. They teach one moment, but they are also students in others. Different hats.

Finally, in terms of believing, I definitely do not consider it "totally depraved" by modern meaning of the word. But, as the Word is spiritual, people can not receive it.

Jesus said this and we should stick to this. There is no reason to elaborate if that elaboration leaves the course of the Gospels.

No one can go to the Son but by the Father guiding them.

In that sense, yes, human beings are totally lacking spirituality, the Spirit.

But today, in modern english, "depraved" implies deplorably foul and wicked. I view unsaved as simply vessels not yet born into life.

Seems to work for me, and makes sense. It provides clarity, observing it in this manner.

RisenInJesus · Oct 3, 2017

Hammster said:
Here’s why I’m saying you’re conflating. You agree on one hand that those in the flesh cannot please God. Yet to show that they can please God, you don’t give examples of regeneration, but justification. I agree that justification is by faith. Scripture is replete with examples. But nowhere are we told that regeneration is by faith. In fact, when Jesus discusses it in John 3, he says

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." - John 3:8

If regeneration was by faith, we would know where it comes from.

I think here again you are using one verse to say that regeneration happens without faith when so many others clearly connect faith with salvation and eternal life. If one is saved, what are they saved to? Are they not saved from perishing to eternal damnation to eternal life? Certainly, there is no eternal life without one being regenerated. What are you saying? Do you think the scriptures teach that a person can be a born again believer without believing? Without faith? In context, Jesus says just eight verses after the verse you are isolating that ...whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Along with speaking about the wind blowing, Jesus says unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:5)

The scriptures use water as a symbol of the Spirit:
If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39

Peter speaks about the use of the Word of God in regeneration. The Word of God is the means by which the Holy Spirit accomplishes the new birth and Peter here is saying the something similar as Jesus said in John 3:5.
... having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever 1Peter 1:23

I believe the Word of God is living and powerful (Hebrews 4:12) and the Spirit uses God's Word to present people the fact of sin, condemnation, and need for a Savior.

Then there is Paul who says:
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God Romans 10:17

The verse you are using...
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." - John 3:8

I believe this verse simply indicates that the movement of Holy Spirit, as it says, cannot be seen and one cannot know where it comes from or goes, yet the Spirit is actively at work in lives of people everywhere bringing conviction and enlightening their minds to understand the truths of God's Word and it's implication for their lives, not only now, but for eternity. I see no way that John 3:8 negates the biblical reality that God has said faith is necessary for salvation and eternal life, which includes and begins by being born again.

Hammster · Oct 3, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
I think here again you are using one verse to say that regeneration happens without faith when so many others clearly connect faith with salvation and eternal life. If one is saved, what are they saved to? Are they not saved from perishing to eternal damnation to eternal life? Certainly, there is no eternal life without one being regenerated. What are you saying? Do you think the scriptures teach that a person can be a born again believer without believing? Without faith? In context, Jesus says just eight verses after the verse you are isolating that ...whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Along with speaking about the wind blowing, Jesus says unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:5)

The scriptures use water as a symbol of the Spirit:
If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39

Peter speaks about the use of the Word of God in regeneration. The Word of God is the means by which the Holy Spirit accomplishes the new birth and Peter here is saying the something similar as Jesus said in John 3:5.
... having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever 1Peter 1:23

I believe the Word of God is living and powerful (Hebrews 4:12) and the Spirit uses God's Word to present people the fact of sin, condemnation, and need for a Savior.

Then there is Paul who says:
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God Romans 10:17

The verse you are using...
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." - John 3:8

I believe this verse simply indicates that the movement of Holy Spirit, as it says, cannot be seen and one cannot know where it comes from or goes, yet the Spirit is actively at work in lives of people everywhere bringing conviction and enlightening their minds to understand the truths of God's Word and it's implication for their lives, not only now, but for eternity. I see no way that John 3:8 negates the biblical reality that God has said faith is necessary for salvation and eternal life, which includes and begins by being born again.

And still not a single verse or passage that links regeneration to faith.

RisenInJesus · Oct 3, 2017

Hammster said:
And still not a single verse or passage that links regeneration to faith.

The link is that regeneration is the instant eternal life begins and the verses I listed and the entire Bible is clear that no one receives eternal life without faith. If regeneration happens without faith and precedes faith, as you say, then this would make faith unnecessary since the person would already be saved. This idea is completely contrary and opposed to the scriptures. When a person is regenerated, he/she is born of God, a member of God’s family and a possessor of eternal new life in Christ. A member of God’s family and a possessor of eternal life is already saved. So what need is there for faith, which the gospel places so much emphasis on, for one who is already saved without believing in Christ?

Hammster · Oct 3, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
The link is that regeneration is the instant eternal life begins and the verses I listed and the entire Bible is clear that no one receives eternal life without faith. If regeneration happens without faith and precedes faith, as you say, then this would make faith unnecessary since the person would already be saved. This idea is completely contrary and opposed to the scriptures. When a person is regenerated, he/she is born of God, a member of God’s family and a possessor of eternal new life in Christ. A member of God’s family and a possessor of eternal life is already saved. So what need is there for faith, which the gospel places so much emphasis on, for one who is already saved without believing in Christ?

The Bible is clear that no one receives justification without faith.

Regeneration necessarily precedes faith because those in the flesh cannot please God. The Bible never said that we are justified by regeneration. It’s by faith. So faith is necessary for justification, not regeneration.

RisenInJesus · Oct 4, 2017

Hammster said:
The Bible is clear that no one receives justification without faith.

Regeneration necessarily precedes faith because those in the flesh cannot please God. The Bible never said that we are justified by regeneration. It’s by faith. So faith is necessary for justification, not regeneration.

So are you saying that one receives new life in Christ...before they are justified or have their sins forgiven?

Hammster · Oct 4, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
So are you saying that one receives new life in Christ...before they are justified or have their sins forgiven?

I’m saying that they are born again. They are given a heart of flesh to replace their heart of stone. They are new creations. They pass from death to life. They go from natural to spiritual. Then, and only then, can they believe and be justified.

RisenInJesus · Oct 4, 2017

Hammster said:
I’m saying that they are born again. They are given a heart of flesh to replace their heart of stone. They are new creations. They pass from death to life. They go from natural to spiritual. Then, and only then, can they believe and be justified.

Okay, I understand your view because Calvinism teaches that a person who is not spiritually alive (born again) cannot understand spiritual things so according to this doctrine the person must first be regenerated to be able to understand spiritual things or even believe the gospel.

If this is the case, how could Nicodemus realize that Jesus had come from God and was a teacher of God (John 3:1-2) without being born again and spiritually alive, yet? Clearly, Nicodemus was not born again because Jesus clearly says to him, “you must be born again.”(John 3:7).

Doesn't this biblical account show that Nicodemus had the ability to come to Jesus with a belief in his heart that Jesus came from God, while he was not yet born again?

Hammster · Oct 4, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
Okay, I understand your view because Calvinism teaches that a person who is not spiritually alive (born again) cannot understand spiritual things so according to this doctrine the person must first be regenerated to be able to understand spiritual things or even believe the gospel.

If this is the case, how could Nicodemus realize that Jesus had come from God and was a teacher of God (John 3:1-2) without being born again and spiritually alive, yet? Clearly, Nicodemus was not born again because Jesus clearly says to him, “you must be born again.”(John 3:7).

Doesn't this biblical account show that Nicodemus had the ability to come to Jesus with a belief in his heart that Jesus came from God, while he was not yet born again?

There’s nothing in the text to say that he wasn’t born again. Just because Jesus explained the imperative to him doesn’t mean that he wasn’t already born again.

If I tell you that to enter the Kingdom you must be born again, this doesn’t mean that I don’t think you are saved. It’s just a statement of fact.

There are places where Jesus said folks were not born again. And one place where it’s implied that they never would be. But this isn’t one of them.

RisenInJesus · Oct 4, 2017

Hammster said:
There’s nothing in the text to say that he wasn’t born again. Just because Jesus explained the imperative to him doesn’t mean that he wasn’t already born again.

If I tell you that to enter the Kingdom you must be born again, this doesn’t mean that I don’t think you are saved. It’s just a statement of fact.

There are places where Jesus said folks were not born again. And one place where it’s implied that they never would be. But this isn’t one of them.

Nicodemus' conversation with Jesus does not sound as one who considered himself born again and the questions he asked seem to indicate he didn't understand what Jesus was talking about. But if you must read into the text that he was already regenerated to support your theology then it reveals a lot.

I find it very discouraging that you can disregard the all the scriptures and the emphasis that the Bible places upon faith/belief along with repentance on the part of the person so they may receive salvation and eternal life (which necessarily begins with regeneration at the moment one is born again to eternal life). It seems to me your allegiance to Calvinism is so strong that it doesn't matter if the scriptures plainly indicate otherwise because you won't see it.

The scriptures below show that the repentance, belief and faith come first before one has new life.

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.” Ezekiel 18:30-32

Repent

get a new heart and a new spirit.

repent and live.

A new heart, new spirit, and life comes after repentance, not before.
-------------------------------------------

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. John 20:30-31

these are written (scriptures)

that you may believe

by believing you may have life

Being born again to new life in Christ is clearly shown in the scriptures to be the result after faith and repentance, not the other way around.
-------------------------------------------------

After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:7-9

He cleansed their hearts

by faith

It does not say He cleansed their hearts by regeneration so they could have faith.
------------------------------------------------

“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.” 1 Timothy 1:16

those who would believe in him

receive eternal life

Belief in Him takes place and then one receives eternal life.

Hammster · Oct 4, 2017

I got to

RisenInJesus said:
I find it very discouraging that you can disregard the all the scriptures and the emphasis that the Bible places upon faith/belief along with repentance on the part of the person so they may receive salvation and eternal life

I’ll stop you right here. I’ve never disregarded any scripture that says such. It’s disingenuous of you to say so. If you have to resort to insults, there’s nothing more to discuss.

RisenInJesus · Oct 4, 2017

Hammster said:
I got to

I’ll stop you right here. I’ve never disregarded any scripture that says such. It’s disingenuous of you to say so. If you have to resort to insults, there’s nothing more to discuss.

I apologize. I don't want to resort to insults and don't mean to offend you. I just find discussing the scriptures very difficult with you when it seems you have to apply a Calvinistic slant to everything when it is so clear it's not there. But I do realize that is my perspective. I think we may not have more to discuss, though, because of this situation and our posts may be getting redundant. Although, we don't agree I appreciate the conversation. It has been interesting and challenging, causing me to search the scriptures. Thank you.

Hammster · Oct 4, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
I apologize. I don't want to resort to insults and don't mean to offend you. I just find discussing the scriptures very difficult with you when it seems you have to apply a Calvinistic slant to everything when it is so clear it's not there. But I do realize that is my perspective. I think we may not have more to discuss, though, because of this situation and our posts may be getting redundant. Although, we don't agree I appreciate the conversation. It has been interesting and challenging, causing me to search the scriptures. Thank you.

You call it Calvinistic slant. I call it biblical.

RisenInJesus · Oct 5, 2017

Hammster said:
You call it Calvinistic slant. I call it biblical.

I can think of a lot of people who call their view "biblical". There are the JW's and when I at one time was a Mormon I claimed my view of the scriptures was biblical, but I found out otherwise. I think the doctrines of Calvinism blatantly contradict the Bible. Again, that is my perspective. You or anyone else have the right in this world or on this forum to consider your view biblical, as do I. Yet, I am thankful that in the end it is only God"s view that matters and I pray that the foremost priority for each of us is God's truth, not our own.

RisenInJesus · Oct 5, 2017

How do Calvinists read the scriptures? What happens to the normal and/or biblical meaning of words like whoever, all, any, the world? Or important concepts such as faith or even more important, the character of God, when read through the lens of Calvinism?

"The Calvinist, however, because of his belief in total depravity and irresistible grace, requires that God must not only draw sinners to Himself but make them accept Christ. The Calvinist thus arrives at an esoteric understanding rather than the ordinary one. He concludes that “all,” “any,” “world,” “whosoever” etc., though these words almost always mean what they say, sometimes mean only the elect. When? Whenever Calvinism requires it.

Isn’t this an artificial view imposed on Scripture rather than derived from it? That it is foreign to Scripture seems apparent from the fact that Calvinism requires the entire Bible to be reinterpreted in a way that does violence to the ordinary meaning of words. Repeatedly God pleads with men, “choose ye this day whom ye will serve,” but no one can make such a choice except God causes them to choose Him through irresistible grace. Over and over God pleads with His people Israel through the prophets to repent and turn from their sin so He won’t have to judge them. He weeps over Israel, defers His judgment, sends more prophets to warn and finally and reluctantly pours out His wrath. But all the time He is pleading with a people to repent who are totally depraved and therefore can’t repent unless He extends irresistible grace to them. Yet He withholds it, all the while condemning them for doing the only thing they can do and which He alone could prevent by extending grace but mysteriously won’t."
Question: ...Calvinism is gaining in influence and as a result is causing controversy and even division in some churches. I think this is an important subject and I don’t recall you ever giving your opinion. Would you please do so in the Q&A section?

Hammster · Oct 5, 2017

Using Dave Hunt as a source is poor scholarship. He’ll just say what you want to hear.

RisenInJesus · Oct 5, 2017

Although he is no longer alive, I have appreciated Dave Hunt's scholarship, his apologetic ministry, and his consistent defense of the Biblical faith against false teachings. He certainly does not say whatever people want to hear. He has very often taken unpopular stands over the years to address aberrant teachings outside or within the church, as a faithful Berean and ... to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3).

Hammster · Oct 5, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
Although he is no longer alive, I have appreciated Dave Hunt's scholarship, his apologetic ministry, and his consistent defense of the Biblical faith against false teachings. He certainly does not say whatever people want to hear. He has very often taken unpopular stands over the years to address aberrant teachings outside or within the church, as a faithful Berean and ... to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3).

He says what you want to hear.

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