Who Was Moses?

Open Heart

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The law of the adulterous bride. It's unlawful for a man to divorce a woman. Through the hardening of hearts, Moses was given the ability to write up a certificate of divorce. But, as the scriptures say, God originally intended an adulterous bride to simply be put away all the days of her life, or all the days of her husbands life. Only after the death of her Husband, could she remarry. If Jesus died, removing that curse from Israel, then why can gentiles them partake of that wonder? Israel was divorced, never to come back. Until the death of God, fulfilled through Jesus, as the message God laid out for us in Genesis through the lineage between Adam - Noah that I linked above.
I'm sorry, friend, but I just don't buy this at all. God spoke about divorce in anger. If you read to the end of the book, you find he did not abandon Israel at all. In fact (in contrast to one verse) we have an ENTIRE BOOK, Hosea, where God explains that he will be faithful to Israel despite Israel's unfaithfulness to Him, just as Hosea will be faithful to his unfaithful wife.
 
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Devin P

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You are mistaken, and scripture proves it. The Pharisees were extremely great Missionaries of Torah. At one point in history, 10% of the Roman empire was Jewish, largely because of converts. And that doesn't count the God-fearers: Gentiles such as Cornelius who believed Jewish teachings but didn't take on the covenant and the obligations of the Mosaic commandments. Jesus himself remarked about how the Pharisees would travel over land and sea to win a single convert. (Matthew 23:15)
No. I'm not.

Read just two verses before that.

Matthew 23:13 - 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter[.]

They change the Father's word, for their own benefit, and therefore keep others out. They keep people into their own traditions, where they have the power, and not the Father. This is why Caiaphas had Jesus killed. He knew who Jesus was, but he also knew that Jesus would have done away with their reign, authority and wealth.
 
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Open Heart

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Your arrogance forgets one thing: God always intended for gentiles to become part of Israel.
If that were true, Israel would not be set apart from the nations. Sorry, but your logic does not make sense. Are there occasional exceptions of Gentiles who have a unique affinity for Israel who take on the covenant and are adopted into the Tribal people? Yes. Such as Rahab and Ruth. But it is not true about Gentiles in general, including those in Ekklesia. Acts 15 makes it crystal clear that believing Gentiles are NOT to be circumcised, which means they are NOT to be adopted into Israel and take on the Mosaic Covenant.
 
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Devin P

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I'm sorry, friend, but I just don't buy this at all. God spoke about divorce in anger. If you read to the end of the book, you find he did not abandon Israel at all. In fact (in contrast to one verse) we have an ENTIRE BOOK, Hosea, where God explains that he will be faithful to Israel despite Israel's unfaithfulness to Him, just as Hosea will be faithful to his unfaithful wife.
Hosea talks about Jesus. When Hosea had to buy back his wife, even though she was his. It represented God buying back Israel, even though she was His. Where did you get at all from my message that He abandoned Israel, considering I said that He loved them so much He died for them?
 
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Devin P

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If that were true, Israel would not be set apart from the nations. Sorry, but your logic does not make sense. Are there occasional exceptions of Gentiles who have a unique affinity for Israel who take on the covenant and are adopted into the Tribal people? Yes. Such as Rahab and Ruth. But it is not true about Gentiles in general, including those in Ekklesia. Acts 15 makes it crystal clear that believing Gentiles are NOT to be circumcised, which means they are NOT to be adopted into Israel and take on the Mosaic Covenant.
Did I say every gentile ever? No. There's several verses I've linked about how, if a foreigner, or a stranger wishes to live among you, offer a food offering, or partake of a feast they can so long as they do... etc, etc.

Acts 15:1 - And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

The men from Judaea were teaching salvation from the letter. Paul was showing that you didn't HAVE to be circumcised FOR salvation. Just like Abraham, it's saved by faith first, then you feel compelled to get circumcised later, as the sign of your salvation, not the root of it. Those that came from Judaea, taught that it was the first thing you were to do to be saved, and without it, you were lost.
 
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Devin P

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Of course not. It had nothing to do with the conversation. Sheesh.
Nothing to do with the conversation? I've explained twice now how it had everything to do with the conversation.

I have no idea why I'm spending my time trying to undo what God Himself did. Your arrogance raised my blood pressure for a moment here, but honestly, it's a blessing in this situation. The bible prophetically tells of why this is happening. One day you will understand, but today is not that day, nor is it within my power to take scales from people. Have a good night. Stop replying on this post. Your absolute refusal to look at something someone explains is relevant to the conversation shows me that you have absolutely no intention of reasonably looking at something you don't agree with, meaning your perspective will never change, because you're closed off to any information you're not comfortable with. With such a person it's absolutely foolish to debate with. I should've learned a week ago. I'm slower than I'd like to admit I suppose. Have a good night. I'll not respond to any more of your posts. We can agree to disagree.
 
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chunkofcoal

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Matthew 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

No. Jew, is only representative of part of Levi, all of Benjamin, and all of Judah. There's still 10 other tribes that Judah doesn't consist of. So no, you can become an Israelite just by believing in Yeshua, and keeping Torah. Whether that makes you part of Judah or not, and therefore a Jew, that's a possibility, but not a necessity. I'm an Israelite, because of the grafting in Yeshua made possible, and I'm not a Jew. It is absolutely necessary for a gentile to become B'nei Ysrael for salvation. There are only 12 gates, one gate for each tribe. And our Messiah said He only came for Israel, those are His elect, and His sheep. His children, and His people. If we aren't in that covenant, we have no part with Him.

I'm in no way low in my self-esteem. I owe all I have to Yeshua, and what He's done for me. It's not that I have a low self-esteem as a gentile. I just understand that the bible teaches that the only people who are saved, are in the covenant, and that covenant is made with one people group. It's the same people group that are called sheep, His people, the elect, and chosen. Israel. All of the previous adjectives I listed, were only ever attributed to one people group. Israel.

I hope you don't mind me poking my nose into the conversation. I've been rereading some of this thread and want to add my two cents. :)

Yeshua did say He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but He also said He had "other sheep which are not of this fold" The Apostle Paul (whom Yeshua sent to the gentiles) said:
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
(Rom 15:8-12)


You said: It is absolutely necessary for a gentile to become B'nei Ysrael for salvation.
And: I just understand that the bible teaches that the only people who are saved, are in the covenant, and that covenant is made with one people group. It's the same people group that are called sheep, His people, the elect, and chosen. Israel. All of the previous adjectives I listed, were only ever attributed to one people group. Israel.

But the Bible talks about people from other nations, so to me that means one does not have to be "B'nei Ysrael for salvation"

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
(Rev 21:23-26)


And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
(Isa 2:2-4)

As I understand it, there are going to be different people - Israel, the sheep from another fold (which will all have one Shepherd), nations of them which are saved...

Regarding what you said about Ezekiel 47: "Whichever tribe you wish to reside in you will get your inheritance in."

This is about land allotments, not becoming part of Israel; the verses refer to the strangers sojourning among the tribes.
So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.
(Eze 47:21-23)














 
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Devin P

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I hope you don't mind me poking my nose into the conversation. I've been rereading some of this thread and want to add my two cents. :)
Nah, you're good.
Yeshua did say He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but He also said He had "other sheep which are not of this fold"
He absolutely did, but all throughout the OT the only people that are told to be like sheep, is Israel. Whether it's the prophets, or David referring to himself as a sheep. Sheep always mentioned Israel. A fold, doesn't denote a different species, only a different location. They were all His sheep, but in different locations. At that time, He was talking to Jews.

This can be proven by going from the verse you linked, about having "sheep which are not of this fold".

That verse you linked is John 10:16. If you read the rest of the verse:

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


The Apostle Paul (whom Yeshua sent to the gentiles) said:
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
(Rom 15:8-12)
In that Romans quote Paul made at the end. He's quoting from the book of Isaiah. Isaiah 11.
If you read the rest of that chapter, you can see that it's not only talking about what Jesus did for us, but also that this is talking about the regathering of the 12 tribes that were scattered abroad, bringing them together again in the last days to again be Israel. Saying that Ephraim will not envy Judah, and Judah will not vex Ephraim. This part hasn't happened yet, because Ephraim still envies Judah, and Judah, as this entire post has shown, still vexes Ephraim.

You said: It is absolutely necessary for a gentile to become B'nei Ysrael for salvation.
And: I just understand that the bible teaches that the only people who are saved, are in the covenant, and that covenant is made with one people group. It's the same people group that are called sheep, His people, the elect, and chosen. Israel. All of the previous adjectives I listed, were only ever attributed to one people group. Israel.

But the Bible talks about people from other nations, so to me that means one does not have to be "B'nei Ysrael for salvation"

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
(Rev 21:23-26)
A couple verses before that shows you who the nations are.

Revelations 21:21 - And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Earlier in Revelations 21, it talks about the 12 gates, and how each of them had the name of each tribe of Israel on them. Those are the nations that were saved. The nations that are saved, are the multitudes of people that are saved, from all over the world, that are sheep of other folds, but as Jesus said in John 10:16, those sheep will come together to be one fold, with one shepherd. That fold, is Israel. Of which, there are 12 tribes.


And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
(Isa 2:2-4)
Isaiah 2:2 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, that a mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isaiah 2:3 - And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

This is talking about in the last days, people saying that we should learn the ways of God, and walk in His paths.

As I understand it, there are going to be different people - Israel, the sheep from another fold (which will all have one Shepherd), nations of them which are saved...

As I pointed out, the sheep of different folds, will come together to be the same fold - Israel.
Regarding what you said about Ezekiel 47: "Whichever tribe you wish to reside in you will get your inheritance in."
This is about land allotments, not becoming part of Israel; the verses refer to the strangers sojourning among the tribes.
So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.
(Eze 47:21-23)
Absolutely it is. But it gives light to how it was back in the Torah. It was always said, in many verses, in many ways, that if a stranger wishes to be Israel, all they have to do is to take up Israel's ways. But, they weren't to be Israel and the strangers. It was simply, Israel. They were to be as ones born in the land, meaning that either they got to choose which tribe to become, or they were forced into certain areas. Allow me to submit to you, that as it says in Ezekiel 47:23, that they weren't forced to be in any-one-tribe, and that they got to choose which tribe they'd reside in. Just as it'll be again in the end of times, when Israel is brought back together to worship once more.
 
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chunkofcoal

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Nah, you're good.

He absolutely did, but all throughout the OT the only people that are told to be like sheep, is Israel. Whether it's the prophets, or David referring to himself as a sheep. Sheep always mentioned Israel. A fold, doesn't denote a different species, only a different location. They were all His sheep, but in different locations. At that time, He was talking to Jews.

This can be proven by going from the verse you linked, about having "sheep which are not of this fold".

That verse you linked is John 10:16. If you read the rest of the verse:

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.



In that Romans quote Paul made at the end. He's quoting from the book of Isaiah. Isaiah 11.
If you read the rest of that chapter, you can see that it's not only talking about what Jesus did for us, but also that this is talking about the regathering of the 12 tribes that were scattered abroad, bringing them together again in the last days to again be Israel. Saying that Ephraim will not envy Judah, and Judah will not vex Ephraim. This part hasn't happened yet, because Ephraim still envies Judah, and Judah, as this entire post has shown, still vexes Ephraim.


A couple verses before that shows you who the nations are.

Revelations 21:21 - And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Earlier in Revelations 21, it talks about the 12 gates, and how each of them had the name of each tribe of Israel on them. Those are the nations that were saved. The nations that are saved, are the multitudes of people that are saved, from all over the world, that are sheep of other folds, but as Jesus said in John 10:16, those sheep will come together to be one fold, with one shepherd. That fold, is Israel. Of which, there are 12 tribes.



Isaiah 2:2 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, that a mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isaiah 2:3 - And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

This is talking about in the last days, people saying that we should learn the ways of God, and walk in His paths.



As I pointed out, the sheep of different folds, will come together to be the same fold - Israel.

Absolutely it is. But it gives light to how it was back in the Torah. It was always said, in many verses, in many ways, that if a stranger wishes to be Israel, all they have to do is to take up Israel's ways. But, they weren't to be Israel and the strangers. It was simply, Israel. They were to be as ones born in the land, meaning that either they got to choose which tribe to become, or they were forced into certain areas. Allow me to submit to you, that as it says in Ezekiel 47:23, that they weren't forced to be in any-one-tribe, and that they got to choose which tribe they'd reside in. Just as it'll be again in the end of times, when Israel is brought back together to worship once more.

Devin, it is obvious that we understand the Bible very differently.
I am curious how you came to these understandings - do you belong to a congregation that teaches this or did you figure it out on your own?
 
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Devin P

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God has led me to accept and understand it. I now however, belong to a fellowship of people who God has also lead to understand these things.

We just go from house to house and read scriptures each Shabbat, there's food and good company. We try our best to celebrate each holy day together as well. This Friday starts Sukkot for example.

It's cool though, because each of us has remarkably similar stories as to what we each - independent of one another - of us have done when we first came into this truth.

We all started making our own bread from scratch.
All of us have ditched Christmas, Halloween, Easter, etc.
We've all tried showing our families, our churches and have since been ostracized from pretty much both.
We've all started wearing tzits, and keeping the holy days and sabbaths independent of one another
It goes on and on and on and on, but you get the point.

This week, Friday, Tabernacles starts, so we're gonna go camping and try to keep this appointed time as best as possible.

We're all new to this though, as we've all come to this within the last two years, but yeah. I'm just glad I've got fellowship. And more and more people are realizing this as time goes on too. Some are shown by others, but most come to it on their own it seems, as trying to show others doesn't end up well in most of our experiences.
 
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chunkofcoal

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God has led me to accept and understand it. I now however, belong to a fellowship of people who God has also lead to understand these things.

We just go from house to house and read scriptures each Shabbat, there's food and good company. We try our best to celebrate each holy day together as well. This Friday starts Sukkot for example.

It's cool though, because each of us has remarkably similar stories as to what we each - independent of one another - of us have done when we first came into this truth.

We all started making our own bread from scratch.
All of us have ditched Christmas, Halloween, Easter, etc.
We've all tried showing our families, our churches and have since been ostracized from pretty much both.
We've all started wearing tzits, and keeping the holy days and sabbaths independent of one another
It goes on and on and on and on, but you get the point.

This week, Friday, Tabernacles starts, so we're gonna go camping and try to keep this appointed time as best as possible.

We're all new to this though, as we've all come to this within the last two years, but yeah. I'm just glad I've got fellowship. And more and more people are realizing this as time goes on too. Some are shown by others, but most come to it on their own it seems, as trying to show others doesn't end up well in most of our experiences.

A real house church, then.
I am curious why you are celebrating Sukkot on Friday; if I understand correctly, it begins tomorrow (Wednesday) evening. Was it just easier to get time off to go camping on the weekend so you are celebrating as you can?
 
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Devin P

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A real house church, then.
I am curious why you are celebrating Sukkot on Friday; if I understand correctly, it begins tomorrow (Wednesday) evening. Was it just easier to get time off to go camping on the weekend so you are celebrating as you can?
Well mainly, it's because no one really knows which days are truly the beginning of the months, and consequently which days are truly the feasts. There are many different calendars amongst those that believe as I do, and even amongst different sects of Judaism. But according to the calendar we go off of, it begins this Friday, and continues on until the Friday after that.

Is it exactly as the Father intended? I'm not sure, and no one can be. But, I'm definitely open to new information regarding the calendar and which days are the right ones. But based off of what I've found so far, with the way we observe it now Passover, and tabernacles are all kicked off with a full moon, and each new month starts with the new moon.

Does that mean the calendar I'm going off is 100%? No, absolutely not, but I'm always testing it to see if it's reliable, and if I find, or someone shows me something that proves otherwise I'll definitely respond accordingly! I just want to do the best with what I have, and there's so many calendars it's hard to tell, but our group all seem to agree upon this one.

It is a good point you bring up though. We're talking and debating over which days should be counted as which. I'm (after this year) considering switching calendars to the first appearance of each of the moon's phases. So Thursday is the first officially 100% moon, and part of me feels it should begin then, or even Wednesday since it will also be basically 100% but I'm not sure. It's my first year doing this, so I'm sure He'll be gracious of my ignorance and guide me into the truth.
 
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pat34lee

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If that were true, Israel would not be set apart from the nations. Sorry, but your logic does not make sense. Are there occasional exceptions of Gentiles who have a unique affinity for Israel who take on the covenant and are adopted into the Tribal people? Yes. Such as Rahab and Ruth. But it is not true about Gentiles in general, including those in Ekklesia. Acts 15 makes it crystal clear that believing Gentiles are NOT to be circumcised, which means they are NOT to be adopted into Israel and take on the Mosaic Covenant.

You need to quit teaching Catholic doctrine in the Messianic forum.
Not only is it against the rules; you are WRONG. The law is for all
believers, not just the Jews. That includes eating clean, keeping the
feasts and circumcision.
 
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chunkofcoal

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Well mainly, it's because no one really knows which days are truly the beginning of the months, and consequently which days are truly the feasts. There are many different calendars amongst those that believe as I do, and even amongst different sects of Judaism. But according to the calendar we go off of, it begins this Friday, and continues on until the Friday after that.

Is it exactly as the Father intended? I'm not sure, and no one can be. But, I'm definitely open to new information regarding the calendar and which days are the right ones. But based off of what I've found so far, with the way we observe it now Passover, and tabernacles are all kicked off with a full moon, and each new month starts with the new moon.

Does that mean the calendar I'm going off is 100%? No, absolutely not, but I'm always testing it to see if it's reliable, and if I find, or someone shows me something that proves otherwise I'll definitely respond accordingly! I just want to do the best with what I have, and there's so many calendars it's hard to tell, but our group all seem to agree upon this one.

It is a good point you bring up though. We're talking and debating over which days should be counted as which. I'm (after this year) considering switching calendars to the first appearance of each of the moon's phases. So Thursday is the first officially 100% moon, and part of me feels it should begin then, or even Wednesday since it will also be basically 100% but I'm not sure. It's my first year doing this, so I'm sure He'll be gracious of my ignorance and guide me into the truth.

I think we all are just doing the best we can with what we have!
I know people on this forum have discussed the different dates of Passover but I don't know if they've discussed the dates of Sukkot. You could start a thread about it and see if anyone has any insight into it.
Enjoy your first Sukkot and may God lead you into all truth!
 
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Lulav

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Paidiske

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