Rich countries could join Christian persecution list

JackRT said:

Not so much mathematics but history could be. Even as a mathematics teacher I took advantage of "teachable moments" to convey moral and ethical behaviour.

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Jack that is much different. Teachers can reinforce societies values like the Golden rule etc. I would even say health classes as part of science and biology you are going to cover the mechanics of reproduction. Sex Ed is not biology class. Even if you have Catholic Sisters teaching it.

redleghunter said:

Well of course, no one is getting their heads chopped off....yet.

And as I mentioned earlier you cannot compare getting burned alive for proclaiming Christ to baking cakes for gay weddings. Not even the same ballpark.

What Open Doors is addressing is the ongoing legal challenges to religious liberty in the richer West countries. That is a reality as Christians are being sued for refusing to support events morally and religiously objectionable. Which in the US Constitution a 1st Amendment right.

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As a fairly open and outspoken Christian, so far in my life the only people who have discriminated against me were other Christians.

As far as baking a cake goes... you also don't have the right to refuse to serve someone because they are black. Or, in the case of the cake, gay.

Audacious said:

As far as baking a cake goes... you also don't have the right to refuse to serve someone because they are black. Or, in the case of the cake, gay.

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And if you did refuse, THAT would be persecution.

Audacious said:

As a fairly open and outspoken Christian, so far in my life the only people who have discriminated against me were other Christians.

As far as baking a cake goes... you also don't have the right to refuse to serve someone because they are black. Or, in the case of the cake, gay.

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Perhaps, yet remember
what Jesus says--- if someone brings a false gospel, do not even greet them, nor have a meal with them;
likewise if someone is hot-tempered, do not associate with them....
perhaps there is more as well.....

"as far as possible" (without denying or opposing God's Word) live at peace with all men.....

But never oppose God's Word.

JackRT said:

And if you did refuse, THAT would be persecution.

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Truly? Did you not take the position Christians in the West were being a bit touchy saying they were being persecuted for being sued for their religious held beliefs? How is refusal of a wedding cake service even the same ballpark as getting a head chopped off?

I got it. It only goes one way. This is quite telling.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

"as far as possible"

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Those words are key. We live in a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-religious society and there is no way to avoid that or go back to the good old days when we Christians could get away with murder (some did) in denying the rights of others.

Speaking of which:

This gentleman is Jagmeet Singh, just elected yesterday as the leader of a major Canadian political party.

JackRT said:

denying the rights of others

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Which rights?

redleghunter said:

Truly? Did you not take the position Christians in the West were being a bit touchy saying they were being persecuted for being sued for their religious held beliefs? How is refusal of a wedding cake service even the same ballpark as getting a head chopped off?

I got it. It only goes one way. This is quite telling.

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I regard persecution for race or sexual orientation as in the same ballpark as religious persecution. Getting your head removed is at one end of the spectrum and the wedding cake refusal is at the other end but both are still persecution.

JackRT said:

I regard persecution for race or sexual orientation as in the same ballpark as religious persecution. Getting your head removed is at one end of the spectrum and the wedding cake refusal is at the other end but both are still persecution.

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Yet those getting sued and lives ruined for adhering to their religious exercise is not persecution?

So far I'm seeing a double standard.

Kerensa said:

More complete garbage. In Australia, just like in other developed countries, we do actually have laws against persecuting people on the grounds of religion (or any other personal characteristic). Australia is NOT going to start jailing Christians, torturing them, making churches illegal or subjecting them to state surveillance, or any of those other things. Our previous Prime Minister was an openly practising Catholic and no-one prevented him from running for office or expressing his beliefs, even if there were plenty of people who didn't agree with him!!

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it is NOT "persecution" to live in a country where your particular beliefs aren't popular. It's not even "discrimination". I've lived in both Australia and the UK as a practising Christian (non-Anglican, at that) for years and I have never seen the least amount of genuine discrimination against Christians.

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Thanks for your perspective, but without getting into an argument my experience over the decades has been otherwise. God bless .

dude99 said:

One of the creators of an annual global report about Christian persecution warns that countries such as Australia might soon be included on it for the first time.

“I’m very concerned about the current trend in the Western world,” Wybo Nicolai told Eternity during his recent visit to Australia. Nicolai works with Open Doors’ Field Leadership team, and he helped create the World Watch List in 1991. Measuring the factors behind persecution as well as the individual freedom of Christians within particular countries, the list has become an annual summary of the worst places on earth to be a Christian.

“I fear that we are at the brink of losing freedom of religion in this part of the world. I am not optimistic about what is going on.”Rich countries could join Christian persecution list

By the things are now, and with a crack down on religious freedom in certain Western countries, in a decade time, there could be western countries that could join the Open Doors Christian persecution List.

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Western countries are deconstructing systems built on theistic values in favour of pluralistic values. Rights are being created to support these pluralistic systems which means that often traditional definitions that are core to christians values are being challenged, stuff like the definition of marriage and civil rights that go against our core moral values. Christians are not being persecuted but rather we become an equal player within these pluralistic systems and are entitled to the same rights within those systems. This feels like rights are being taken away but what it is closer is a levelling of rights across all belief systems. Perceived persecution by loss of popularity is superficial and should not be called persecution at all but more of a de-emphasis of christian values.

redleghunter said:

Yet those getting sued and lives ruined for adhering to their religious exercise is not persecution?

So far I'm seeing a double standard.

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Perhaps I worded that poorly. It was couple who were attempting to buy the cake who were being persecuted. The baker suffered the consequences of breaking the law.

redleghunter said:

Yet those getting sued and lives ruined for adhering to their religious exercise is not persecution?.

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The original intent of the framers of the US Constitution, being good Protestants, was that freedom of religion was about where and how one worshiped. It was not a blank cheque for any and all behaviors deemed necessary by ones conscience. Freedom of religion ends when the rights of others begins.

I am amazed people cannot see it. Open Doors has a point to be worried about the state of Australia. Has anyone not seen the vilification of people who have openly and simply stated they believe marriage as the current definition stands should stay the same? Persecution does not only mean chopping heads and being shot at, it means any harmful action towards people of a faith intended to prevent them from exercising their faith. Already I cannot post on FB my beliefs about marriage, and anyone who is a Christian has a target on their back for ill treatment. I could not say anything about that at work because my job would have been at risk.

And refusing a service on conscience grounds is only right in secular democracy, there should be protections that allow people to do that without it being considered discrimination. But with this so-called same-sex marriage issue it means a clash of ideology and if that goes through it will impinge upon my right to say my beliefs as a Christian about what has been an undisputed definition. This is persecution.

People like a children's party entertainer (Madeleine) and Mark Allay of IBM have lost their jobs, others have had pressure to be de-registered as doctors (Pansy Lai), companies like Corrs have had to withdraw an ad that simply had two people having a civil discussion over the issue. A church has lost its use of a school hall because it had simply expressed its beliefs about marriage and homosexuality, and I might ad it has caused our own church, which until now has a strategy of renting school halls, to seriously consider purchasing property for the first time just so it won't face the same danger. The Presbyterian church has decided that should SSM occur that they will no longer be part of the marriage act. The ACL (Australian Christian Lobby) office has been attacked and had to cancel a meeting over the violence of protesters.

It is a real discussion of worry amongst the Christian families here - what if their school teaches same-sex ideology as fact and they are not allowed to pull their kids out of school? Homeschool? Will Christian schools still have the right to teach otherwise? None of this is enshrined in clear legislation to protect those who hold to traditional marriage. And even if it were, endorsing SSM is only a step closer to breaking down that protection should it ever come.

To think that SSM will not do more than be about gay couples marrying is simply wrong. It is happening in Australia now, it has happened in other similar Western democracies and it is a move of the evil one. Disagree if you want, but I'm sorry, I urge you all to wake up and see the tsunami coming.

JackRT said:

Perhaps I worded that poorly. It was couple who were attempting to buy the cake who were being persecuted. The baker suffered the consequences of breaking the law.

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An Unconstitutional law to boot. At least here.

FireDragon76 said:

The original intent of the framers of the US Constitution, being good Protestants, was that freedom of religion was about where and how one worshiped. It was not a blank cheque for any and all behaviors deemed necessary by ones conscience. Freedom of religion ends when the rights of others begins.

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Freedom of religion is an individual right. That's what many seem to miss.

DamianWarS said:

Western countries are deconstructing systems built on theistic values in favour of pluralistic values. Rights are being created to support these pluralistic systems which means that often traditional definitions that are core to christians values are being challenged, stuff like the definition of marriage and civil rights that go against our core moral values. Christians are not being persecuted but rather we become an equal player within these pluralistic systems and are entitled to the same rights within those systems. This feels like rights are being taken away but what it is closer is a levelling of rights across all belief systems. Perceived persecution by loss of popularity is superficial and should not be called persecution at all but more of a de-emphasis of christian values.

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It's only free exercise of religion if government sanctions what can be freely expressed. That is what you are saying above.

However, such is the very opposite of free exercise. It's government sanctioned exercise.

redleghunter said:

It's only free exercise of religion if government sanctions what can be freely expressed. That is what you are saying above.

However, such is the very opposite of free exercise. It's government sanctioned exercise.

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Even freedom have a limit and there is really no such thing as a complete free society. These rich countries sanctions do not tip the scales against christians causing christians to be persecuted but rather their agendas are more focused at balancing the scales. We can still play by the rules and serve Christ but of course if not then the cause of Christ is always greater. The fact that there's a level of persecution involved should not change anything. No one said governments should mirror christian values nor should we expect that.

DamianWarS said:

These rich countries sanctions do not tip the scales against christians causing christians to be persecuted but rather their agendas are more focused at balancing the scales.

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The balance of scales applies to what exactly?