Never scripturally a pre antichrist rapture

Quasar92

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We've seen earlier the testimony of 70 contiguous weeks in the Epistle of Barnabas.

Here's Clement of Alexandria, circa 160 AD.

And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.”

Stromata, book 1, chapter 21

I wonder if Clement had had a vision of dispensationalism when he threw in that last sentence.


The 70th week of Daniel, 8:27, HAS NOT YET taken place. It IS NOT past history, as you would allegorically try to make us believe. The following is from another source refuting you:

"When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation?"

Answer:
The timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation is one of the most controversial issues in the church today. The three primary views are pre-tribulational (the rapture occurs before the tribulation), mid-tribulational (the rapture occurs at or near the mid-point of the tribulation), and post-tribulational (the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation). A fourth view, commonly known as pre-wrath, is a slight modification of the mid-tribulational position.

First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “seven” (seven years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy sevens (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth seven, the tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.

The primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing His people from the earth. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.

Source: gotquestions.org


Quasar92
 
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Riberra

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and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.
Your quoting of Revelation 3:10 miss something important ie>>>verse 12...as you will notice in -verse 12- there is no rapture to Heaven implied...but the COMMAND TO OVERCOME...which was also given to the other churches.


There must be a reason explaining why the pre-trib doctors [doctoring the meaning of the verse] never include verse 11 and verse 12.


Revelation 3:10-12

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 
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Quasar92

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You are evidently not understanding my question. You say there is a gap from the completion of the 69th week to the beginning of the 70th week of the 70 week prophecy, which right now is about 2000 years.

I am asking you to show me another time prophecy in the Bible that has a similar gap in the time frame where the time is put on hold until some time later for the time to begin again to completion.

I know about the "gap" from prophecy to fulfillment.


No, I am not misunderstanding your question, There are more than 300 OT prophecies Jesus fulfilled in the NT. They all have a gap between the origin of the prophecy to its fulfillment, Take Ps.22 for example, together with many other Messianic prophecies about Jesus, have a gap of 3,000 years, Isaiah 53 has has one of about 800 years, etc.

Hope this helps.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Your quoting of Revelation 3:10 miss something important ie>>>verse 12...as you will notice in -verse 12- there is no rapture to Heaven implied...but the COMMAND TO OVERCOME...which was also given to the other churches.


There must be a reason explaining why the pre-trib doctors [doctoring the meaning of the verse] never include verse 11 and verse 12.


Revelation 3:10-12

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


The Biblical teaching about the pre-trib rapture o the Church by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul are documented in the first two posts, of the four post link below, from which there is no option.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


Quasar92
 
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jgr

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The 70th week of Daniel, 8:27, HAS NOT YET taken place. It IS NOT past history, as you would allegorically try to make us believe. The following is from another source refuting you:

"When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation?"

Answer:
The timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation is one of the most controversial issues in the church today. The three primary views are pre-tribulational (the rapture occurs before the tribulation), mid-tribulational (the rapture occurs at or near the mid-point of the tribulation), and post-tribulational (the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation). A fourth view, commonly known as pre-wrath, is a slight modification of the mid-tribulational position.

First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “seven” (seven years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy sevens (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth seven, the tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.

The primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing His people from the earth. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.

Source: gotquestions.org


Quasar92
Your eyesight really is getting bad.

You seem to have overlooked that I'm not quoting myself, I'm quoting Clement of Alexandria, born less than 100 years removed from the fulfillments of Daniel 9:24-27.

There are literal fulfillments of Daniel 9:24-27 in Clement's historicity.

Please don't try to amuse us with the claim that gotquestions.org's modernism refutes Clement, an acclaimed second century Church Father.
 
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Riberra

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The Biblical teaching about the pre-trib rapture o the Church by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul are documented in the first two posts, of the four post link below, from which there is no option.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


Quasar92
What you interpret as being "a rapture to Heaven before the tribulation"... is in reality a CAUGHT UP AND GATHERING of the believers [resurrected and those still alive and remain] UNTO HIS COMING, TO MEET Jesus in the CLOUDS IN THE AIR ---WHEN JESUS WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN TO ESTABLISH HIS MILLENNIAL KINGDOM ON THE EARTH.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
 
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BABerean2

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The Biblical teaching about the pre-trib rapture o the Church by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul are documented in the first two posts, of the four post link below, from which there is no option.

One other option would be to quit ignoring the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

That option shows your Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology to be based on ignorance, because the only way you can make the doctrine work is by ignoring the scripture listed above.

.
 
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Douggg

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One other option would be to quit ignoring the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

That option shows your Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology to be based on ignorance, because the only way you can make the doctrine work is by ignoring the scripture listed above.

.
But the new covenant is not the issue. Two peoples is not the issue either, because there will be people from all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples.

What it boils down to is when does the Day of Lord begin and the conditions just prior to.
(1) the world will being saying peace and safety, but children of the light won't be buying into it.
(2) a. there will be a falling away from believing Jesus is the messiah
b. the person commits the act of going into the temple claiming to be God.

It will be a case of the arch villain of the end-times in a position as the King of Israel, the world thinking they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety. Many in Christianity falling away because they depart Jesus and believe, like the Jews and the rest of the world, that the person is the real messiah.

Until he goes into the temple, sits, claiming to be God..... which triggers the sudden destruction and the Day of the Lord beginning.... somewhere in the first half of the seven years nearer the middle, than the start.

Which makes the pre-trib (pre-7years) rapture -may not happen then as thought by many.
 
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BABerean2

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Until he goes into the temple, sits, claiming to be God..... which triggers the sudden destruction and the Day of the Lord beginning.... somewhere in the first half of the seven years nearer the middle, than the start.

The early promoters of Dispensational Theology claimed that God would go back and deal with modern Israel under the Sinai Covenant for 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.
It is one of the greatest errors of the doctrine.
Therefore, the New Covenant is the issue, because Dispensational Theology must ignore the New Covenant or see the doctrine fall apart.


There is no 7 year tribulation in the entire Bible, since the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

The end is found in Revelation 11:15-18, with the 7th trumpet and the time of the judgment of the dead.
Chapter 12 begins with a review of Church history.


Christ also returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19.
Therefore, any attempt to force the book into a perfect chronology can only produce confusion.


.
 
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Douggg

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The early promoters of Dispensational Theology claimed that God would go back and deal with modern Israel under the Sinai Covenant for 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.
It is one of the greatest errors of the doctrine.
Therefore, the New Covenant is the issue, because Dispensational Theology must ignore the New Covenant or see the doctrine fall apart.
You need to separate dispensational theology from the pre-trib rapture as many who believe in a pre-trib rapture are not dispensationalists.
There is no 7 year tribulation in the entire Bible, since the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
The term is a misnomer. However, the 7 year 70th week is the backbone of the chapters 6-19 which lead up to Jesus's return.
The end is found in Revelation 11:15-18, with the 7th trumpet and the time of the judgment of the dead.
It signifies the end of Satan's kingdom having dominion over the world. But it is not an instantaneous measure. It will be a process over the second half of the seven years. The time of the judgment of the dead in relation to the 6000 years when the first man and woman died. The great white throne judgment is not until the 1000 year reign of Jesus from this earth ends.

Christ also returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19.
Therefore, any attempt to force the book into a perfect chronology can only produce confusion.

I think it would be more accurate to say not a "linear" chronology instead of not a perfect chronology.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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No, I am not misunderstanding your question, There are more than 300 OT prophecies Jesus fulfilled in the NT. They all have a gap between the origin of the prophecy to its fulfillment, Take Ps.22 for example, together with many other Messianic prophecies about Jesus, have a gap of 3,000 years, Isaiah 53 has has one of about 800 years, etc.

Hope this helps.


Quasar92

Other than the 70 week prophecy they are no prophecies concerning the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled that had an element of time associated with it. And you are not associating this prophecy with him but are allocating it to the anti-christ

Yes you are misunderstanding the question.

69 weeks pause (gap) for 2000 years and counting, then pick up the time count again for the 1 week some time in the future.

69 weeks + 293 weeks(so far and still counting) + 1 week =70 weeks this is the new math I guess.

does the 2300, 1260, 1335, 1290, 42 months, time times and dividing of time, time prophecies have the same math as your 70 week prophecy? or any other time prophecy I have not included.

THAT IS THE QUESTION

Jesus Christ is the same always he does not change. He is the giver of all prophecy.
 
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Douggg

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Other than the 70 week prophecy they are no prophecies concerning the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled that had an element of time associated with it. And you are not associating this prophecy with him but are allocating it to the anti-christ
It is 70 shmittahs. They are all Jewish. It is only the last shmittah as the one which is associated with the person who becomes the Antichrist - King of Israel, for a short time before betraying the Jewish people and the Mt. Sinai covenant.

The last shmittah begins with the confirming of the Mt Sinai covenant as Moses did in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, and which Moses required of the leader(s) of all future generations.

does the 2300, 1260, 1335, 1290, 42 months, time times and dividing of time, time prophecies have the same math as your 70 week prophecy? or any other time prophecy I have not included
All of those timeframes fit within the last shmittah.

day 220 is 2300 days before Jesus returns
day 1260 is 1260 days before Jesus returns
day 1185 is 1335 days before Jesus returns
day 2475 is 1290 days after the AoD is setup to be worshiped
day 1263.5 is the 42 months before Jesus returns
unknown day is a time, times, half times before Jesus returns.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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It is 70 shmittahs. They are all Jewish. It is only the last shmittah as the one which is associated with the person who becomes the Antichrist - King of Israel, for a short time before betraying the Jewish people and the Mt. Sinai covenant.

The last shmittah begins with the confirming of the Mt Sinai covenant as Moses did in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, and which Moses required of the leader(s) of all future generations.


All of those timeframes fit within the last shmittah.

day 220 is 2300 days before Jesus returns
day 1260 is 1260 days before Jesus returns
day 1185 is 1335 days before Jesus returns
day 2475 is 1290 days after the AoD is setup to be worshiped
day 1263.5 is the 42 months before Jesus returns
unknown day is a time, times, half times before Jesus returns.

Sorry Douggg but I have to disagree with you.

42 months, 1260 days and time times and half times are all the same period

Time = 1 year, times = two years, Half time = 1/2 year (12+24+6) =42 months, 42 months x 30days = 1260 days

Day = year in prophecy

All three of these time periods were fulfilled from 538 when the RCC gained secular power to go with its religious power, and ended in 1798 with the removal of the pope by Napoleons General Berthier. Deadly wound.
That is what history tells us. Prophecy is history in advance, history is prophecy fulfilled.

The ani-christ is not a future person of Jewish faith, it is present now.

Take a look at what the reformers taught.
 
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Douggg

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Sorry Douggg but I have to disagree with you.

42 months, 1260 days and time times and half times are all the same period

Time = 1 year, times = two years, Half time = 1/2 year (12+24+6) =42 months, 42 months x 30days = 1260 dayste]

Day = year in prophecy

All three of these time periods were fulfilled from 538 when the RCC gained secular power to go with its religious power, and ended in 1798 with the removal of the pope by Napoleons General Berthier. Deadly wound.
If so, what is your historical record of the two witnesses laying dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years?
 
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BABerean2

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You need to separate dispensational theology from the pre-trib rapture as many who believe in a pre-trib rapture are not dispensationalists.

That is not possible, based on the history of both doctrines.

Those who claim not to be dispensationalists, who promote the pre-trib doctrine may not know the origin of either.

Trying to separate the pre-trib doctrine from modern Dispensational Theology would be like trying to separate the founding of the United States from George Washington.
It is not possible.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf



.
 
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Douggg

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That is not possible, based on the history of both doctrines.

Those who claim not to be dispensationalists, who promote the pre-trib doctrine may not know the origin of either.

Trying to separate the pre-trib doctrine from modern Dispensational Theology would be like trying to separate the founding of the United States from George Washington.
It is not possible.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf



.
It's wasted effort because it doesn't change what either the dispensational doctrine is or what the pre-trib view is.

All dispensationalist may be be pre-trib. But not all pre-tribbers are dispensationalists.
 
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Riberra

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It's wasted effort because it doesn't change what either the dispensational doctrine is or what the pre-trib view is.

All dispesationalist may be be pre-trib. But not all pre-tribbers are dispensation.
All pre-tribbers believe that the Church will be in Heaven while Israel will be on the Earth during the tribulation...this is the teaching made by the modern dispensationalism invented in 1830 by John Nelson Darby.

John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia

John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]
 
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Douggg

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All pre-tribbers believe that the Church will be in Heaven while Israel will be on the Earth during the tribulation...this is the teaching made by the modern dispensationalism invented in 1830 by John Nelson Darby.
No, that is something that is arrived at by reading the bible. You would just be a lot better off talking about the merits or flaws of the pre-trib view without drawing dispenstationalism with all it's baggage into it.
 
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Riberra

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No, that is something that is arrived at by reading the bible. You would just be a lot better off talking about the merits or flaws of the pre-trib view without drawing dispenstationalism with all it's baggage into it.
John Nelson Darby is the inventor of both ...

John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia
 
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BABerean2

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It's wasted effort because it doesn't change what either the dispensational doctrine is or what the pre-trib view is.

All dispensationalist may be be pre-trib. But not all pre-tribbers are dispensationalists.

Then show me how to remove George Washington from a discussion of the American Revolutionary War.


Many today who believe the pretrib view do not understand why Dispensational Theology needs a pretrib removal of the Church.

Early promoters of Dispensational Theology claimed that God would go back and deal with Israel under the Old Covenant system 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.

Based on Hebrews 8:13 and Hebrews 13:20 this idea is total nonsense.

Those who claim the Church is not present on earth during the tribulation period must deal with the above, no matter how much they know about the rest of Dispensational Theology.

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