Faith or Predestination

Butch5

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God imparted a living soul into Adam's body.

Read Gen 2:7 again. The passage says God breathed the breath or spirit of life into Adam not a living soul. Man became a living soul after the breath or spirit of life was breathed into him




What scripture says the soul is in the blood

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

The word life is the Hebrew word Nephesh which is soul.
 
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RisenInJesus

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So this was real to you.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

It was certainly real for me that before I believed in Jesus Christ and trusted in Him personally as my Savior I did not fully understand God or His word, but I always as long as I could remember knew there was a God and the Bible was special.

I don't think the verse (1 Corinthians 2:14) is in reference to unbelievers. I think it is improperly pulled out of context and used by Calvinists to support their doctrine that the unregenerate cannot believe the gospel. Yet, it is the unregenerate that God calls to repent and believe.

In Corinth there was much divisiveness and carnality. One of the purposes of Paul’s letter was to correct the issues that led to this behavior. And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? (1 Corinthians 3:1-4) I suggest you read the entire book and 2 Corinthians, also.

It is within this context that 1 Corinthians 2 must be read. Paul is trying to show them where true wisdom comes from, by the Spirit, not by fleshly, worldly wisdom. He is speaking to believers who living in the flesh and warning them. He is not speaking to or about unbelievers or saying anything to the effect that the unregenerate cannot hear and understand the gospel or have no ability to repent and believe.
 
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Hammster

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I don't think the verse (1 Corinthians 2:14) is in reference to unbelievers. I think it is improperly pulled out of context and used by Calvinists to support their doctrine that the unregenerate cannot believe the gospel. Yet, it is the unregenerate that God calls to repent and believe.
See what you did there? You assumed your view into the verse and insisted that it can’t mean what it plainly means because it goes against your belief.

Paul says that the natural man cannot understand. That means unbelievers. Even if your correct that he has believers who are thinking wrong in mind, how much more so for unbelievers?
 
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RisenInJesus

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See what you did there? You assumed your view into the verse and insisted that it can’t mean what it plainly means because it goes against your belief.
No, what I did was assume the way you would look at the verse from the Calvinist perspective to support the Calvinist doctrine of Total Inability and then I looked at the verse in context to see what it actually was saying.
 
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No, what I did was assume the way you would look at the verse from the Calvinist perspective to support the Calvinist doctrine of Total Inability and then I looked at the verse in context to see what it actually was saying.
No, what I did was assume the way you would look at the verse from the Calvinist perspective to support the Calvinist doctrine of Total Inability and then I looked at the verse in context to see what it actually was saying.
You probably missed my edit.

Paul says that the natural man cannot understand. That means unbelievers. Even if your correct that he has believers whose thinking is wrong in mind, how much more so for unbelievers?
 
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RisenInJesus

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You probably missed my edit.

Paul says that the natural man cannot understand. That means unbelievers. Even if your correct that he has believers whose thinking is wrong in mind, how much more so for unbelievers?
Yes, I missed your edit.

I certainly agree that unbelievers cannot understand spiritual wisdom from God or live in the Spirit since they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. But unbelievers can hear the gospel and repent and believe when the Holy Spirit convicts their conscience of sin and need for a Savior. Not one verse in the Bible says otherwise and the message of the scriptures is that God calls everyone to repent and believe in His Son.
 
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Yes, I missed your edit.

I certainly agree that unbelievers cannot understand spiritual wisdom from God or live in the Spirit since they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. But unbelievers can hear the gospel and repent and believe when the Holy Spirit convicts their conscience of sin and need for a Savior. Not one verse in the Bible says otherwise and the message of the scriptures is that God calls everyone to repent and believe in His Son.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

This contradicts what you just said. Or at least part of what you said, since you contradicted yourself.
 
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RisenInJesus

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The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

This contradicts what you just said. Or at least part of what you said, since you contradicted yourself.
I did not contradict anything.

I said the unbeliever cannot understand spiritual wisdom from God or live in the Spirit. That does not mean an unbeliever cannot understand a perfectly clear command to "Repent and believe the gospel", or be aware of their sinful state and need of a Savior under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

When God gives a command and warns of punishment for those who do not comply, as though they are responsible agents, it certainly does imply the ability to obey. Whether in the OT or the NT God's commands never seemed to be presented as impossibilities for the hearers, as if they lacked the ability to understand the directive or respond. “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. (Acts !7:30-31)

The Calvinist teaching of total inability does seem to be a contradiction to the scriptures because it opposes the Bible teaching concerning hardness of heart. The Scriptures warn us that those who repeatedly participate in sin may sear their consciences ...
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron
(1 Tim. 4:2)
and render themselves "past feeling"...
This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.(Ephesians 4:19)
entering into a hardening of the heart toward God and His truth.

Contrary to Calvinism's doctrine of Total Inability, the Bible teaches that people resist the Holy Spirit and do not believe, not because they are unable to understand, but because they refuse and do not want to submit to God...
You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Acts 7:51
 
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I did not contradict anything.

I said the unbeliever cannot understand spiritual wisdom from God or live in the Spirit. That does not mean an unbeliever cannot understand a perfectly clear command to "Repent and believe the gospel", or be aware of their sinful state and need of a Savior under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

When God gives a command and warns of punishment for those who do not comply, as though they are responsible agents, it certainly does imply the ability to obey. Whether in the OT or the NT God's commands never seemed to be presented as impossibilities for the hearers, as if they lacked the ability to understand the directive or respond. “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. (Acts !7:30-31)

The Calvinist teaching of total inability does seem to be a contradiction to the scriptures because it opposes the Bible teaching concerning hardness of heart. The Scriptures warn us that those who repeatedly participate in sin may sear their consciences ...
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron
(1 Tim. 4:2)
and render themselves "past feeling"...
This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.(Ephesians 4:19)
entering into a hardening of the heart toward God and His truth.

Contrary to Calvinism's doctrine of Total Inability, the Bible teaches that people resist the Holy Spirit and do not believe, not because they are unable to understand, but because they refuse and do not want to submit to God...
You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Acts 7:51
Your whole post is just one more contradiction. It even contradicts your own experience. So I’m not sure what else can be said. You want some credit for your salvation, though you’ll deny that. You want to believe there was just enough good in you to make the right decision. That robs God of His glory.

But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. - Galatians 6:14
 
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2tim_215

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I agree with all your points. The one thing I would say (if I understand you correctly) is that it also can refer to some Christians, those who lack spiritual discernment as pointed out regarding the Corinthians (Paul calls them "babes in Christ") and sometimes referring to "Carnal Christians. Perhaps I am responding to someone else's post since I haven't been following this thread all that closely.
1 Corinthians 3:1-3(KJV) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 or ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
 
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RisenInJesus

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Your whole post is just one more contradiction. It even contradicts your own experience. So I’m not sure what else can be said. You want some credit for your salvation, though you’ll deny that. You want to believe there was just enough good in you to make the right decision. That robs God of His glory.

But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. - Galatians 6:14

The Bible is clear that salvation and eternal life is a gift from God. What ability is required to receive a gift? None!

Yes, I will definitely deny that I want credit, think there is anything at all good in myself, or have any desire to rob God of His glory. This accusation is just another falsehood constantly thrown by Calvinists at non-Calvinist. It is ridiculous to say that believing God or receiving His free gift, as the scriptures instruct and as He desires people to do, somehow gains credit for the person in earning salvation or takes away from His glory. It is so contrary to the message of the scriptures, I would not believe one claiming to be a Christian would ever say such a thing, except that I've heard Calvinists say it so often.

Before I was saved in Christ I spend years in false, works-based religions. I know the sinful attitude of feeling self-righteous as if I was doing something good, a part of a group that is pleasing God, or somehow better than others who were not. I also know the distinct difference in Christ and the peace and freedom of trusting His finished work alone for which He has all the glory.

The Bible unquestionably states that to receive the gift of salvation one must believe God and in His Son, Jesus Christ. Never does the Bible say that the natural man cannot do so. In fact Jesus' command is... And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:15). This is what all the apostles did and it is just one verse which shows that every person has the ability to believe or reject the gospel.
 
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The Bible is clear that salvation and eternal life is a gift from God. What ability is required to receive a gift? None!

Yes, I will definitely deny that I want credit, think there is anything at all good in myself, or have any desire to rob God of His glory. This accusation is just another falsehood constantly thrown by Calvinists at non-Calvinist. It is ridiculous to say that believing God or receiving His free gift, as the scriptures instruct and as He desires people to do, somehow gains credit for the person in earning salvation or takes away from His glory. It is so contrary to the message of the scriptures, I would not believe one claiming to be a Christian would ever say such a thing, except that I've heard Calvinists say it so often.

Before I was saved in Christ I spend years in false, works-based religions. I know the sinful attitude of feeling self-righteous as if I was doing something good, a part of a group that is pleasing God, or somehow better than others who were not. I also know the distinct difference in Christ and the peace and freedom of trusting His finished work alone for which He has all the glory.

The Bible unquestionably states that to receive the gift of salvation one must believe God and in His Son, Jesus Christ. Never does the Bible say that the natural man cannot do so. In fact Jesus' command is... And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:15). This is what all the apostles did and it is just one verse which shows that every person has the ability to believe or reject the gospel.
There’s obviously something good in you. You chose to accept the gift. Accepting = good. Rejecting = bad.
 
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RisenInJesus

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There’s obviously something good in you. You chose to accept the gift. Accepting = good. Rejecting = bad.

Nothing in myself is good enough to earn or help God with His way of salvation which the Bible calls a gift of God.
I just believe the scriptures in that they continually use plain language that says people are to repent and believe the gospel, as if they have the capability to do so. The scriptures also show that when such faith is expressed God is pleased and provides the gift of salvation and eternal life. I also believe the scriptures which say that humans are made in the image of God, though fallen and sinful, we have a heart and conscience where God's law is written and retain the ability to respond to Him. God desires people to be reconciled with Him, responding in faith and love to His love so we may be in loving relationship with Him for eternity.

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
 
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Nothing in myself is good enough to earn or help God with His way of salvation which the Bible calls a gift of God.
I just believe the scriptures in that they continually use plain language that says people are to repent and believe the gospel, as if they have the capability to do so. The scriptures also show that when such faith is expressed God is pleased and provides the gift of salvation and eternal life. I also believe the scriptures which say that humans are made in the image of God, though fallen and sinful, we have a heart and conscience where God's law is written and retain the ability to respond to Him. God desires people to be reconciled with Him, responding in faith and love to His love so we may be in loving relationship with Him for eternity.

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
However, you must disregard all of the scriptures that speak of the natural man, those in the flesh, and what they cannnot do. They cannot understand God and they cannot please Him. Your post here completely contradicts that.
 
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RisenInJesus

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However, you must disregard all of the scriptures that speak of the natural man, those in the flesh, and what they cannnot do. They cannot understand God and they cannot please Him. Your post here completely contradicts that.

I don't disregard the verses which refer to the things the natural man cannot do in the flesh. There are also plenty of verses, too many to list actually, in which God's word tells humanity to seek Him. Not to mention all the numerous scriptures which command unsaved people to repent, believe the gospel and believe in Jesus. Are you disregarding those? Is God wasting words or does He expect people to listen and respond?

I trust you are a believer, but sometimes it just feels like when I am talking to an atheist who pulls certain verses out of context and then says, "See, contradiction...the Bible contradicts itself!". The reality is the Bible has some verses you seem to only see to support your Calvinist view that no lost person can grasp the gospel message. I do not disregard them, but they are not stand alone verses. There are many, many other verses which say otherwise and you can't ignore those. I think it is a matter of rightly dividing the word of God, taking everything said in the scriptures into consideration, and looking at particular verses in their context.

But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. Deut. 4:29

Let all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;And let those who love Your salvation say continually, “Let God be magnified!” Psalm 70:4

He who earnestly seeks good finds favor, But trouble will come to him who seeks evil. Proverbs 11:27

I have not spoken in secret, In a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, ‘Seek Me in vain’; I, the Lord, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Isaiah 45:19

Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. 55:6

And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13

For thus says the Lord to the house of Israel: “Seek Me and live Amos 5:4

so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us... Acts 2:27

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.Hebrews 11:16
 
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I don't disregard the verses which refer to the things the natural man cannot do in the flesh. There are also plenty of verses, too many to list actually, in which God's word tells humanity to seek Him. Not to mention all the numerous scriptures which command unsaved people to repent, believe the gospel and believe in Jesus. Are you disregarding those? Is God wasting words or does He expect people to listen and respond?

I trust you are a believer, but sometimes it just feels like when I am talking to an atheist who pulls certain verses out of context and then says, "See, contradiction...the Bible contradicts itself!". The reality is the Bible has some verses you seem to only see to support your Calvinist view that no lost person can grasp the gospel message. I do not disregard them, but they are not stand alone verses. There are many, many other verses which say otherwise and you can't ignore those. I think it is a matter of rightly dividing the word of God, taking everything said in the scriptures into consideration, and looking at particular verses in their context.

But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. Deut. 4:29

Let all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;And let those who love Your salvation say continually, “Let God be magnified!” Psalm 70:4

He who earnestly seeks good finds favor, But trouble will come to him who seeks evil. Proverbs 11:27

I have not spoken in secret, In a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, ‘Seek Me in vain’; I, the Lord, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Isaiah 45:19

Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. 55:6

And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13

For thus says the Lord to the house of Israel: “Seek Me and live Amos 5:4

so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us... Acts 2:27

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.Hebrews 11:16
True or false: those in the flesh can please God.

True or false: the natural man accepts the things of the Spirit of God.

Both of those are false. There’s no “but”. Your whole post is a “but”. You can’t reconcile the truth that God gives a command to believe with the fact that the natural man wants nothing to do with God.
 
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RisenInJesus

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True or false: those in the flesh can please God.

True or false: the natural man accepts the things of the Spirit of God.

Both of those are false. There’s no “but”. Your whole post is a “but”. You can’t reconcile the truth that God gives a command to believe with the fact that the natural man wants nothing to do with God.
Those in the flesh can please God- false.
The natural man accepts the things of God- false

The natural man can be convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit, drawn by the Father, repent, believe the gospel and be saved, pleasing God -true
Then this once natural, now saved man, accepts the things God has for them to mature in their faith and relationship with the Lord-true.

When you look at how Paul and the apostles evangelized in the New Testament you never read of them saying things like the natural man is spiritually dead and cannot respond to the gospel. Instead, the scriptures always give accounts of them telling all the unsaved, people who were naturally living in the flesh, what they must do for salvation... Repent and Believe in Jesus Christ.

I see no contradiction or nothing to be reconciled. This is the truth of the Bible.
 
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Those in the flesh can please God- false.
The natural man accepts the things of God- false

The natural man can be convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit, drawn by the Father, repent, believe the gospel and be saved, pleasing God -true
Then this once natural, now saved man, accepts the things God has for them to mature in their faith and relationship with the Lord-true.

When you look at how Paul and the apostles evangelized in the New Testament you never read of them saying things like the natural man is spiritually dead and cannot respond to the gospel. Instead, the scriptures always give accounts of them telling all the unsaved, people who were naturally living in the flesh, what they must do for salvation... Repent and Believe in Jesus Christ.

I see no contradiction or nothing to be reconciled. This is the truth of the Bible.
The natural man cannot please God, but he can.

That’s a contradiction.
 
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RisenInJesus

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The natural man cannot please God, but he can.

That’s a contradiction.
It is no contradiction. It is just the reality the scriptures reveal. Everyone starts off as a natural man living in the flesh. The one thing and only thing the natural man can do to please God is to believe and have faith in God. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Rahab and many other examples are given throughout the scriptures of those who believed God and God was pleased, accounted this as righteousness, and rewarded such faith.
 
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It is no contradiction. It is just the reality the scriptures reveal. Everyone starts off as a natural man living in the flesh. The one thing and only thing the natural man can do to please God is to believe and have faith in God. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Rahab and many other examples are given throughout the scriptures of those who believed God and God was pleased, accounted this as righteousness, and rewarded such faith.
And you are still conflating regeneration and justification. Yes, they believed. It was counted to them as righteousness. But that’s not the same thing as being born again.

Scripture is clear that the natural man cannot please God. It never says that the one and only thing they can do is believe. If so, Paul would have been clear about it in Romans 8.
 
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