One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

Jason0047 said:

Ever read Matthew 25:31-46 lately?

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Yes, many times.

redleghunter said:

All the ones claiming they were He. Hope this helps.

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Doesn't say that. Where do you get that idea from?

Colossians:
25 a]">[a]Whereof I am a minister, according to the dispensation of God, which is given me unto youward, to fulfill the word of God,

26 Which is the mystery hid since the world began, and from all ages, but now is made manifest to his b]">[b]Saints,

27 To whom God c]">[c]would make known what is the riches of his glorious mystery among the Gentiles, which riches is Christ in you, the hope of glory,

Christ was the first and only bearer of the "door" to spirituality. The Jews never had it.

To miss the coming kingdom and to forfeit our birthright does not mean that we will perish. It means that we will lose the reward but not our salvation. We will suffer loss but still will be saved, yet so as through fire 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.

This is the basic concept on which all five warnings in Hebrews are given and with which they are all pervaded. All the negative points of these warnings are related to the suffering of the loss of the reward in the coming kingdom, whereas all the positive points are related to the reward and enjoyment of the kingdom. All seven epistles in Revelation 2 and 3 conclude with this same concept — the reward of the kingdom or the loss of it.

Here's a list of scripture pertaining to rewards:
Matthew 5:20; Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 16:24-27; Matthew 19:23-30; Matthew 24:46-51; Matthew 25:11-13, 21, 23, Matthew 25:26-30; Luke 12:42-48; Luke 19:17, 19, Luke 19:22-27; Romans 14:10, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13-15; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:7-8; Hebrews 2:3; Hebrews 4:1, 9, 11;Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31, 35-39; Hebrews 12:16-17, 28-29; and Revelation 2:7, 10-11, 17, 26-27; Revelation 3:4-5, 11-12, 20; Revelation 22:12.
Not everyone`s work is as a fire-plucker either ...

Phantasman said:

Yes, many times.

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Then you are not reading it right. Jesus says to the believers of all nations to love the poor. If they don’t do so, it is as if they are not loving Jesus; There are eternal dire consequences to one’s soul if they don’t love the poor.

vinsight4u said:

1 Timothy 4:1

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;”

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Man can you pray for me please

Phantasman said:

Doesn't say that. Where do you get that idea from?

Colossians:
25 a]">[a]Whereof I am a minister, according to the dispensation of God, which is given me unto youward, to fulfill the word of God,

26 Which is the mystery hid since the world began, and from all ages, but now is made manifest to his b]">[b]Saints,

27 To whom God c]">[c]would make known what is the riches of his glorious mystery among the Gentiles, which riches is Christ in you, the hope of glory,

Christ was the first and only bearer of the "door" to spirituality. The Jews never had it.

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Not true.

“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1 Corinthians 10:4).

Jason0047 said:

Then you are not reading it right. Jesus says to the believers of all nations to love the poor. If they don’t do so, it is as if they are not loving Jesus; There are eternal dire consequences to one’s soul if they don’t love the poor.

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Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. He never said to love the poor that we had to become one of them. When we give to lesser than ourselves, we give to Christ. When those above us take our coats, give them our shirt as well. Jesus is explaining that material things make no difference in the spiritual and has no value.

I'm envisioning things just fine.

mmbattlestar said:

Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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When it comes to eternal security the real question should be, is there any other kind. What is the alternative, temporary security. You are born again of incorruptible seed, a common New Testament figure for the word of God:

Jesus explained the seed, the word of God, has three hazards before a person is actually converted. The heart hears but never believes because the devil, steals it away, or persuades them the gospel isn't true. The shallow or stony ground, initially receive it with joy but when persecution comes the word withers in the heat. Then there is seed that falls among the thorns and thistles, the cares of this life and the deceitfulness of riches chock out the word. Then finally the hearts that hears, believes, and avoids the trappings of earthly care and desire and bears fruit (Luke 8:11-15). The important part, the first three soils were never saved, once the word of God enters their heart there is a time of decision. Once that decision that condition is permanent, they are either saved or lost forever.


If you hear without believing, fall away because of persecution, or allow yourself to be drawn away by worldly things you never come to saving faith. If your truly born again, you will bear fruit.

Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?

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Eternal security is a doctrine that emerged in response to a works righteousness salvation that taught the sacraments, implemented by institutionalized ministers, is what saved Christians. They also believed they had the power to revoke salvation. Only God can know the thoughts and inclinations of the heart. You can only be saved one way, it must be forever or it's not real. If the conversion is genuine then you will be justified, sanctified and ultimately glorified, God himself promises this through the gospel. Just one key thing to remember, you are saved when the Holy Spirit tells you that you are, not unless or until:

You can experience the revelation of God in your heart and fall away. You can taste the power of the Holy Spirit and the gospel only to go on to perdition. The only thing you can control in this process is the condition of the heart. The way you receive the engrafted word that makes you wise unto salvation is repentance (James 1:21-22). You must be justified, sanctified and born again of incorruptible seed and you must bear fruit. If and only if this happens are you eternally secure and you only receive that and know it for a fact when the Holy Spirit bears witness in your heart that you are a child of God.

It's not salvation if this doesn't happen:


Grace and peace,
Mark

PeaceB said:

I did not. I asserted that the verses indicated that they were justified not because the word "sanctified" was used, but because they were sanctified by the blood of Jesus.

And I gave several other reasons in my initial post, none of which have been addressed.

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They may have been "set apart," as I thoroughly explained in post #267, but it does not specifically say they were "justified" or "saved," so there is nothing left for me to address.

In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

redleghunter said:

I "liked" your post however the bolded above is really not Biblical. I'll explain. If you meant temptation yes correct. However we sometimes get dished out to us situations beyond what we can handle as a test of faith to see where we go for comfort and help. Each according to maturity and light given.

Just wanted to make that distinction.

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It is more than temptation as in 1 Cor. 10:13
"Everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world - faith." 1 John 5:4
This not only includes temptations, but trials, loss, even death.
"I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me."
"We are more than conquerors" Hupernikomen = super nikes

Born again Christians should understand they are wearing Super Nikes!

Phantasman said:

Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. He never said to love the poor that we had to become one of them. When we give to lesser than ourselves, we give to Christ. When those above us take our coats, give them our shirt as well. Jesus is explaining that material things make no difference in the spiritual and has no value.

I'm envisioning things just fine.

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No. Loving the poor would be included in loving your neighbor.

Read again the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37).

Jason0047 said:

Not true.

“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1 Corinthians 10:4).

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I'm going to go with the earlier version of the Bible here (1599):

1 Moreover, a]">[a]brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, that all our b]">[b]fathers were under that cloud, and all passed through that sea,
2 c]">[c]And were all d]">[d]baptized unto e]">[e]Moses, in that cloud, and in that sea,
3 And did all eat the f]">[f]same spiritual g]">[g]meat,
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink (for they drank of the spiritual Rock that h]">[h]followed them: and the Rock was i]">[i]Christ.)
5 But with many of them God was not pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 j]">[j]Now these things are our k]">[k]examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.7 Neither be ye idolaters as were some of them, as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed fornication, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt l]">[l]Christ, as some of them also tempted him, and were destroyed of serpents.

The parenthesis is Pauls pause to say that the spirit that followed much later as Christ, was present with them even back then. Paul is saying not to follow after those who say that they have the spirit yet do not understand it and why verses 5-9 proves that spiritual food and drink wasn't enough.

Jason0047 said:

No. Loving the poor would be included in loving your neighbor.

Read again the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37).

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I don't know what you're getting at. Love your enemy also. Are you on some type of poor thing.

Phantasman said:

I'm going to go with the earlier version of the Bible here (1599):

1 Moreover, a]">[a]brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, that all our b]">[b]fathers were under that cloud, and all passed through that sea,
2 c]">[c]And were all d]">[d]baptized unto e]">[e]Moses, in that cloud, and in that sea,
3 And did all eat the f]">[f]same spiritual g]">[g]meat,
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink (for they drank of the spiritual Rock that h]">[h]followed them: and the Rock was i]">[i]Christ.)
5 But with many of them God was not pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 j]">[j]Now these things are our k]">[k]examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.7 Neither be ye idolaters as were some of them, as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed fornication, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt l]">[l]Christ, as some of them also tempted him, and were destroyed of serpents.

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I think we need to clean this passage up a bit:

Ok that's much better. They were baptized in that cloud and in the sea, they ate the same spiritual meat and drink. They had been:

That's not salvation, it's an invitation to salvation. Moses was always calling them stiff necked and rebellious, in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, and God wanted to kill them all but Moses talked him down to 23,000. It's kind of a stretch to say they were saved since they never believed. When the spies go into Canaan 10 return with a bad report and only Joshua and Caleb believe God can conqueror them. These stiff necked and rebellious, unbelieving, idolatrous people wanted to kill the only two who actually believed what God had told them. God saved the believers from the unbelievers and preserved them long enough to bring them into the Promised Land after all the rest had died in the wilderness.

The parenthesis is Pauls pause to say that the spirit that followed much later as Christ, was present with them even back then. Paul is saying not to follow after those who say that they have the spirit yet do not understand it and why verses 5-9 proves that spiritual food and drink wasn't enough.

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They had all they needed to believe but never responded in faith. Meanwhile two believers were preserved and saw the promise of God fulfilled. If they believed at the first Passover it quickly withered when they were trapped between the Egyptian army and the Red Sea, that is if they actually believed. Either the devil stole away the word or it fell on stony ground when faced with adversity. As they traveled they complained about food and water that was always provided, which are the cares of this life. Finally they worshiped a golden calf and committed fornication having the word chocked out by those thorns and thistles. After 40 years there were only three of the original millions, and that is no exaggeration, who saw God's promise fulfilled, and one couldn't enter the promised land. Many are called, few are chosen, but the elect are saved once and forever to the glory of God.

Nothing new under the sun.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Phantasman said:

I'm going to go with the earlier version of the Bible here (1599):

1 Moreover, a]">[a]brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, that all our b]">[b]fathers were under that cloud, and all passed through that sea,
2 c]">[c]And were all d]">[d]baptized unto e]">[e]Moses, in that cloud, and in that sea,
3 And did all eat the f]">[f]same spiritual g]">[g]meat,
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink (for they drank of the spiritual Rock that h]">[h]followed them: and the Rock was i]">[i]Christ.)
5 But with many of them God was not pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 j]">[j]Now these things are our k]">[k]examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.7 Neither be ye idolaters as were some of them, as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed fornication, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt l]">[l]Christ, as some of them also tempted him, and were destroyed of serpents.

The parenthesis is Pauls pause to say that the spirit that followed much later as Christ, was present with them even back then. Paul is saying not to follow after those who say that they have the spirit yet do not understand it and why verses 5-9 proves that spiritual food and drink wasn't enough.

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No. Galatians 4:29 says, "But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."

This is in reference to how Ishmael persecuted Isaac who was born after the Spirit.

Also, the words "circumcision of the heart" in the Old Testament was in reference to being born again spiritually. Try doing a study on it some time, my friend.

Phantasman said:

I don't know what you're getting at. Love your enemy also. Are you on some type of poor thing.

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No. Your simply not reading and believing Scripture or you are simply not aware that Scripture teaches that loving your neighbor is the same thing as loving the poor or the afflicted.

27 "And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise."
(Luke 10:25-37).

Jason0047 said:

No. Galatians 4:29 says, "But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."

This is in reference to how Ishmael persecuted Isaac who was born after the Spirit.

Also, the words "circumcision of the heart" in the Old Testament was in reference to being born again spiritually. Try doing a study on it some time, my friend.

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You do know Ishmael was just an infant at the time right, the term used by Paul does mean overt persecution but the idea here is Ishmael was a threat to the child of promise. Being the first born Ishmael would have been entitled to the inheritance from Abraham, but God had him sent away. Isaac was born of the spirit, his birth was miraculous. Ishmael was born of the flesh in that he was conceived by Hagar because Sarah and Abraham had trouble believing God's promise. When Abraham heard the promise he laughed, when Sarah overheard the promise she laughed. That's where Isaac got his name, it means 'she laughs'. So much for easy believism.

Jason0047 said:

No. Galatians 4:29 says, "But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."

This is in reference to how Ishmael persecuted Isaac who was born after the Spirit.

Also, the words "circumcision of the heart" in the Old Testament was in reference to being born again spiritually. Try doing a study on it some time, my friend.

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You don't have to be arrogant.............my friend. You use the word "NO" a lot. Learn to debate civilly.

If the Jews had been told to be born again by Moses, why did they not understand the term when Jesus spoke it? They did the best through could with the partial truth given them. They were saved by their faith once Christ came to man. They couldn't seek the kingdom of God because it wasn't given to them to know. Jesus taught us to seek it we have to be born again. To receive it we are born of fire (Chrism Holy Ghost). Show me where the spirituality of seeking the kingdom of God and the baptism of the Holy Ghost appear in the OT.

Jason0047 said:

No. Your simply not reading and believing Scripture or you are simply not aware that Scripture teaches that loving your neighbor is the same thing as loving the poor or the afflicted.

27 "And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise."
(Luke 10:25-37).

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I am just lost in your intent. Every Gospel scripture you quoted I agree with. I do a lot for the poor. I live below the poverty line myself, check to check (SS). What IS your point?

Phantasman said:

You don't have to be arrogant.............my friend. You use the word "NO" a lot. Learn to debate civilly.

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We should all work on that every chance we get.

If the Jews had been told to be born again by Moses, why did they not understand the term when Jesus spoke it? They did the best through could with the partial truth given them. They were saved by their faith once Christ came to man. They couldn't seek the kingdom of God because it wasn't given to them to know. Jesus taught us to seek it we have to be born again. To receive it we are born of fire (Chrism Holy Ghost). Show me where the spirituality of seeking the kingdom of God and the baptism of the Holy Ghost appear in the OT.

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You have two things going on here at once, there is being born again which is salvation and there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which equips for service. In the days of Moses the 70 elders where baptized in the Holy Spirit:

Then there were Bezalel and Aholiab:

Salvation on the other hand is when the Holy Spirit makes us a new creature in Christ:

We can't really know what went on in the heart of believers in the Old Testament. We do know that true repentance and saving faith only come through the washing and renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. We know they received the word, some fell away and never came to saving faith, some responded in faith and bore fruit. The key here is saving faith and we have plenty of examples of that from the OT.

Notice the Spirit was in them. The revelation was greatly expanded in the New Testament witness, there is no question about that. But the sanctification of the Holy Spirit with regards to salvation came through in the OT as faith and repentance. True faith and repentance, righteousness and sanctification have always been a work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer. They may not have called it being born again but the essential process remains unchanged, righteousness is by grace through faith. The righteousness of God in Christ can come only from God since it's based on his divine attributes. Producing those qualities in the heart of the believer is the sole responsibility of the Holy Spirit, always has been.

Grace and peace,
Mark