Tetra

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Yes, God joins two people into one, and this is a mystery.
Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you here. At least if you make this claim, you have the burden of proof.

I think this is partly referring to the way God made us so that sexual intimacy is much more than a physical act.
To who??? Scriptural reference please.

But even when sex occurs outside of God's given boundaries, it still creates a level of "oneness", only it becomes unhealthy and damaging:

1 Corinthians 6: 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!
16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."
17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.
19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.​
"Outside" God given boundaries presupposes there are specific boundaries God has set. Please define the exact "God given" boundaries for sex... what are those?

As to your comment regarding "oneness", this whole ideology stems from the "soul tie" nonsense camp within Christendom. That is, unless you're actually suggesting the two become physically one... which I'm gonna need some scientific evidence for, beyond "this is a mystery".
 
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dayhiker

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From my study, the Greek word inappropriate contenteia means prostitution and all the other definitions are added over the years.
The other thing that I feel is left out of most of the scriptures on sinful sexuality is idolatry that associated with the sexual terms that are used. If we look at the verses that say what God is against its the idolatry not the sexuality.
 
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Mark Corbett

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I'm not saying sex before marriage is okay, but I really find your arguments weak if I'm honest.

I provided a long, detailed argument in the opening post. You have simply asserted that it is weak without giving an iota of evidence. I encourage people to read the opening post and decide for themselves.


The problem with this forum, is that disagreement with your position can be viewed as "promotion" of premarital sex, which is against the TOS, so I'll avoid that one.

The prohibition on promoting premarital sex is not a "problem with this forum". It is a wise policy. Premarital sex causes harm of many kinds. Because it is not pleasing to God, it always has some negative consequences, and often has deep, serious negative consequences. People are hurt by it. So I thank God that this forum does not allow it's promotion.
 
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samir

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Do you think premarital sex is always wrong?

Yes, it's called fornication and is always sinful. Adultery is always sinful too and getting a judge to issue a divorce certificate (which is meaningless in the eyes of God - no judge can sever what God has joined together) is not an excuse to cheat on their spouse even if they marry that person. That means those who get a civil divorce and remarry while their spouse is still alive are committing adultery and living in sin as long as they continue to sleep together. Such people need to repent since scripture says adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven (1Corinthians 6:9)."
 
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Cuddles333

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Premarital sex in the Bible meant that a 14-16 year old girl was not saving her virginity for her marriage to her future husband (reason for her to be a pagan temple prostitute) who may even have been a former swinger. Most marriages of young girls were to young men between 16-18. So in that time and culture there wasn't the rampant premarital sex that wr have today.

Fornication in the Bible was a person engaging in sexual worship with a pagan temple female or male prostitute to their deity. The sex part was not as hurtful to God as the spiritual turning away from Him by His child. This was a case for stoning and it shocked Jesus' disciples when he told them at the time that this was the only grounds for them to divorce their wives.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Cuddles333, your comments on premarital sex are as dangerous as they are wrong.

Premarital sex in the Bible meant that a 14-16 year old girl was not saving her virginity for her marriage

Nowhere does the Bible place an age limit on sexual morals or sexual immorality. Your comment could encourage some to think that it is ok to engage in sexual immorality after they are "old enough". Whether intentionally or not, you could be encouraging people to engage in sin which is displeasing to God and which harms themselves and others.

Premarital sex in the Bible meant that a 14-16 year old girl was not saving her virginity for her marriage to her future husband (reason for her to be a pagan temple prostitute)

While temple prostitution was an evil reality, you are totally wrong to limit sexual immorality to acts connected with temple prostitution. Human sacrifice was also a part of some of those pagan cultures. That doesn't mean it was only wrong to kill someone if it was part of a pagan ritual. Likewise, the Bible does not limit sexual immorality to acts committed as part of a pagan ritual. In the OP I provided Biblical texts to support the truth that sex before marriage is wrong. You have provided no Biblical evidence. All you are providing are dangerous excuses for people who are tempted to give in to sin. You are tempting them to think, "Well, I'm not doing this as part of a pagan religious ritual, so I can have sex with my girlfriends". That is wrong, dangerous, and unbiblical.

The sex part was not as hurtful to God as the spiritual turning away from Him by His child.

I suppose one could argue if a person used heroin as part of a cult ritual, the cult ritual was a worse sin than merely taking heroin. But it would be wrong and dangerous to the go on to imply that taking heroin outside of cult rituals is acceptable. Your argument could lead some to feel that sexual immorality is not that bad if it is not part of a pagan ritual. That is wrong and that is dangerous.

Your arguments do not take into account Paul's Holy Spirit inspired counsel to a young person who is not acting honorable towards a virgin he is engaged to. This has nothing to do with cult prostitutes. It has to do with a desire to have sex before marriage. Paul's solution is not to go ahead and have sex, it is to go ahead and get married (and then be free to have sex):

NIV 1 Corinthians 7:36 If anyone is worried that he might not be acting honorably toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if his passions are too strong and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married.

And your comments could lead people into things improper for God's holy people:

NIV Ephesians 5:3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Any sex outside of commitment is hard on people. No matter what you are seeking for guidance in scripture, the foundation is commitment is the key to healthy sex.

Can you have sex outside of marriage? Sure. Most do.
But it's not healthy for body and mind. Knowing it's not
healthy will help a person refrain from damaging themselves.
And by "marriage" I mean an intention to commit to that one person.

I don't mean that civil laws or church ceremonies are the key.
The key is commitment to that one person you share your
intimacies with.
[I bolded the part I am responding to.]

So you would NOT distinguish between engagement and marriage?
 
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Cuddles333

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Cuddles333, your comments on premarital sex are as dangerous as they are wrong.



Nowhere does the Bible place an age limit on sexual morals or sexual immorality. Your comment could encourage some to think that it is ok to engage in sexual immorality after they are "old enough". Whether intentionally or not, you could be encouraging people to engage in sin which is displeasing to God and which harms themselves and others.



While temple prostitution was an evil reality, you are totally wrong to limit sexual immorality to acts connected with temple prostitution. Human sacrifice was also a part of some of those pagan cultures. That doesn't mean it was only wrong to kill someone if it was part of a pagan ritual. Likewise, the Bible does not limit sexual immorality to acts committed as part of a pagan ritual. In the OP I provided Biblical texts to support the truth that sex before marriage is wrong. You have provided no Biblical evidence. All you are providing are dangerous excuses for people who are tempted to give in to sin. You are tempting them to think, "Well, I'm not doing this as part of a pagan religious ritual, so I can have sex with my girlfriends". That is wrong, dangerous, and unbiblical.



I suppose one could argue if a person used heroin as part of a cult ritual, the cult ritual was a worse sin than merely taking heroin. But it would be wrong and dangerous to the go on to imply that taking heroin outside of cult rituals is acceptable. Your argument could lead some to feel that sexual immorality is not that bad if it is not part of a pagan ritual. That is wrong and that is dangerous.

Your arguments do not take into account Paul's Holy Spirit inspired counsel to a young person who is not acting honorable towards a virgin he is engaged to. This has nothing to do with cult prostitutes. It has to do with a desire to have sex before marriage. Paul's solution is not to go ahead and have sex, it is to go ahead and get married (and then be free to have sex):

NIV 1 Corinthians 7:36 If anyone is worried that he might not be acting honorably toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if his passions are too strong and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married.

And your comments could lead people into things improper for God's holy people:

NIV Ephesians 5:3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.

Well, I do think that God expects His children in the Faith to grow up. He does not expect us to remain Spiritual infants till the day we die. When we have been shown that the Bible is silent on a subject, then we should also remain silent. We have no business trying to proclaim that God intended something else because of the silence on the subject.
 
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Cuddles333

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In the Formal Debate section it was shown the inconsistency of trying to maintain that since sexual practices in 1st century pagan worship were not spiritual lawful, then they were not lawful OUTSIDE the pagan temples either. It was maintained that if a married Christian couple were to engage in sex under an old pagan idol today, would this be Spiritually unlawful? This is called a Spiritual maturity check.
 
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Mark Corbett

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When we have been shown that the Bible is silent on a subject, then we should also remain silent. We have no business trying to proclaim that God intended something else because of the silence on the subject.

God is not silent on any moral or ethical topic. There are things which we do not need to know yet which God has been silent on, but everything which effects our lives He speaks to. Some topics He has addressed directly and explicitly in His Word. Other topics He has given us Biblical principles and wisdom to use when addressing. Thus, the Bible does not explicitly mention drug addiction, but we can apply Bible principles to that issue.

More specifically, God is not silent on sexual immorality. The question I addressed in the opening post (OP) was whether or not there is evidence in the Bible that sexual immorality includes premarital sex. I provided carefully reasoned arguments, based on Scripture, that the Bible does view premarital sex as sexual immorality. You have not refuted those arguments.

Well, I do think that God expects His children in the Faith to grow up. He does not expect us to remain Spiritual infants till the day we die.

Yes, God wants us to grow up. I've been blessed to know and work with mature Christians in many places and settings and from many backgrounds. Some of them came from backgrounds where in the past they engaged in many types of immorality. Sometimes this included premarital sex. I have NEVER heard a mature, godly Christian say "I'm glad I did that, that premarital sex was a blessing and a help" or anything remotely close to that. Everyone who has that in their past now views it as sin. The grew up in Christ.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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God is not silent on any moral or ethical topic. There are things which we do not need to know yet which God has been silent on, but everything which effects our lives He speaks to. Some topics He has addressed directly and explicitly in His Word. Other topics He has given us Biblical principles and wisdom to use when addressing. Thus, the Bible does not explicitly mention drug addiction, but we can apply Bible principles to that issue.
More specifically, God is not silent on sexual immorality. The question I addressed in the opening post (OP) was whether or not there is evidence in the Bible that sexual immorality includes premarital sex. I provided carefully reasoned arguments, based on Scripture, that the Bible does view premarital sex as sexual immorality. You have not refuted those arguments.
Yes, God wants us to grow up. I've been blessed to know and work with mature Christians in many places and settings and from many backgrounds. Some of them came from backgrounds where in the past they engaged in many types of immorality. Sometimes this included premarital sex. I have NEVER heard a mature, godly Christian say "I'm glad I did that, that premarital sex was a blessing and a help" or anything remotely close to that. Everyone who has that in their past now views it as sin. The grew up in Christ.
What is "sex"?
It seems most uses of that term indicate coitus, actual sexual intercourse.

In dating there tends to be a lot of "other stuff," that is sexual in nature and involveS sexual arousal if not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].
NIV Ephesians 5:3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
In this passage it appears the NIV goes quite beyond Scripture's original words to bring us to a real dilemma. Can the unmarried even kiss?

If the King James is more faithful, there should not be even the hint of fornication ...
And it appears fornication (inappropriate contentia) includes adultery, but that is peripheral to this discussion.

So what do people think - should the unmarried even kiss when dating?
The OP guy, (if it is ok to speak that way?) indicates Christians would later regret any "sex" before marriage. I had a childhood sweetheart and one or two evenings a week we would kiss and kiss and kiss and nothing else. No trouble, and much pleasantness. (Neither of us decades later regret any of that.
I know of at least one pastor who recommends
kissing and only kissing. It struck me at the time, even way back then, as somewhat extraordinary and perhaps would not work for many teenagers? What do ye say?
Is there any reason to be against kissing, especially if there is firm resolve NOT to go farther. (We never discussed it nor did we ever try to go farther.)

So I think the recommendation from the pulpit should be,
kiss and only kiss.
Is it morally correct to make such a recommendation, and would it even be at all feasible?
 
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Mark Corbett

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Doug asks some good questions:

What is "sex"?
It seems most uses of that term indicate coitus, actual sexual intercourse.

I did address this briefly in the OP. Of course, the OP was fairly long and a precise definition of what actions constitute sexual immorality was not goal.

I have two initial thoughts which I hope and pray will help us think about this topic clearly:

1. We shouldn't ask "What's the most I can get away with?", but rather, "What is most pleasing to God and the best way to act?". I'm not saying that Doug is intending to ask "What's the most I can get away with?", but there is always a danger of starting to think that way.

2. Jesus addresses the deep roots and nature of various sins in the Sermon on the Mount. With regard to murder, He explains that even being angry with our brother is a sin like murder. And with regard to adultery, He explains that even looking at a woman with lust is included in the sin of adultery.

Matthew 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


If we keep these words of Jesus in mind, they will help us through questions like the ones being asked here.


Can the unmarried even kiss?

So, there's no direct teaching on "kissing" in the Bible. But there are principles and there is godly wisdom. I'll share some thoughts, but understand that I'm not suggesting "rules", but rather I'm sharing my own understanding, trying to base it on Bible principles and wisdom:

1. Kissing while dating is likely to create increased sexual desire and arousal. I think that for many couples it will be easier to keep a boundary of "no kissing" than a boundary of "only kissing", because kissing so easily leads to carousing and sexual touching and more.

CSB Song of Solomon 2:7 Young women of Jerusalem, I charge you by the gazelles and the wild does of the field: do not stir up or awaken love until the appropriate time.

Stirring up sexual desires while dating someone is dangerous!

2. It seems to me that those who have saved their first kiss for their wedding day have not regretted that decision.

3. It wouldn't be alright for a married man to kiss another woman the way that couples kiss while dating. It would clearly be sinful. This is a strong indication to me that it is best to save kissing for marriage (I'm clearly not talking about the kind of friendly kiss one might give their grandmother, or that some cultures regularly use as a sign of friendship).

4. Passionate kissing may have been part of what Paul had in mind when he wrote:

CSB 1 Corinthians 7:36 But if any man thinks he is acting improperly toward his virgin, if she is past marriageable age, and so it must be, he can do what he wants. He is not sinning; they can get married.

It seems to me that "acting improperly" probably referred to some types of words or actions which could lead to sexual intercourse.

The OP guy, (if it is ok to speak that way?)

Yes, it's fine to call me the OP guy! Like most pastors, I've been called a lot worse!! :)

The OP guy, (if it is ok to speak that way?) indicates Christians would later regret any "sex" before marriage. I had a childhood sweetheart and one or two evenings a week we would kiss and kiss and kiss and nothing else. No trouble, and much pleasantness. (Neither of us decades later regret any of that.

Did you marry this childhood sweetheart who you kissed and kissed? I ask because it seems a little strange to me that you would know what she thought of your past kissing decades later if you had not married her. I'm not saying it would be necessarily wrong, just a bit unusual. If you married someone else it would at least seem awkward to me for you to have a discussion about past kissing with someone not your spouse. I realize this is a personal question, so don't feel obligated to answer or explain if you don't want to.

So I think the recommendation from the pulpit should be, kiss and only kiss.
Is it morally correct to make such a recommendation, and would it even be at all feasible?

I would certainly never recommend "kiss and only kiss" from the pulpit. I don't feel I need to draw an exact line for others. However, if I gave a recommendation, it would be to just hold hands and save your first kiss for your wedding day. But I would not judge a couple who kissed while engaged. I would gently warn against kissing before being engaged without making a judgment, but just warning of the real dangers involved. Does that make sense?

I think that saving your first kiss for your wedding day is the very best way to go.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Considering that scripture says, "Greet one another with a holy kiss" (2Corinthians 13:12), I think it's safe to assume it's okay for the unmarried and everyone else to kiss.

Yes, if you're talking about the type of kiss you would give your mom or grandmom, the type of kiss which your spouse would not be offended if they saw you receiving it from someone else. In other words, a "non-romantic kiss", a "holy kiss". This is quite different from they type of kissing which people often engage in while dating.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Yes, if you're talking about the type of kiss you would give your mom or grandmom, the type of kiss which your spouse would not be offended if they saw you receiving it from someone else. In other words, a "non-romantic kiss", a "holy kiss". This is quite different from they type of kissing which people often engage in while dating.
Is "holy" synonymous with "non-romantic."
There could be nothing holy about the love in a marriage bed, could there?
Especially not that!
Especially since it is only a Sacrament in some circles.
 
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Considering that scripture says, "Greet one another with a holy kiss" (2Corinthians 13:12), I think it's safe to assume it's okay for the unmarried and everyone else to kiss.
Samir,
(I'll greet you that way, and not with a holy kiss, okay? Or is addressing by one's name the holiness of a kiss that is to be added to one's greeting?)

It would appear there can be much speculation about what makes a kiss holy ...

Since the admonition to kiss is given in Scripture FIVE (5) TIMES, including once as "Kiss of Love," surely we should take it very seriously and figure it out, and not simply ignore it as most Christians seem to do.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Is "holy" synonymous with "non-romantic."
There could be nothing holy about the love in a marriage bed, could there?
Especially not that!
Especially since it is only a Sacrament in some circles.

Holy is not synonymous with non-romantic in general. But consider this verse in question:

ESV 1 Thessalonians 5:26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.

What kind of kiss do you think Paul had in mind? Do you think he had in mind passionate, romantic kissing with "all the brothers"? Of course not!

The kiss he had in mind was almost certainly something similar to what we would call a peck on the cheek. It might not have been exactly that (although it may have been), but it certainly does not fit the context to imagine the kind of passionate kissing that many couples who are dating engage in. This should be common sense.

I think this we do the equivalent in American culture with a "brotherly hug".

I also want to point out that there is nothing indicating that this physical friendship gesture was intended to occur between men and women. It is entirely possible that the guys greeted the guys this way, and the women the women.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Doug asks some good questions:

I have two initial thoughts which I hope and pray will help us think about this topic clearly:

1. We shouldn't ask "What's the most I can get away with?", but rather, "What is most pleasing to God and the best way to act?". I'm not saying that Doug is intending to ask "What's the most I can get away with?", but there is always a danger of starting to think that way.

2. Jesus addresses the deep roots and nature of various sins in the Sermon on the Mount. With regard to murder, He explains that even being angry with our brother is a sin like murder. And with regard to adultery, He explains that even looking at a woman with lust is included in the sin of adultery.

Matthew 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


If we keep these words of Jesus in mind, they will help us through questions like the ones being asked here.
Thank you Mark for a very reasoned reasonable response!

On #1., it might be useful to consider, "What can I get away with?" Not necessarily to base any action on that consideration, but to better understand what is involved in the general dilemma.
If we do not know what the actual limits are, at what point we are transgressing God's will and law, what is against the Word of God, then do we even have a Biblical starting point, but might be considering some arbitrary subjective inclination without regard for Scripture?
!t might be "most pleasing to God" if the individuals became monks and nuns; on the other hand if on a date ... In other words, "most pleasing to God" might turn out to be very much harder to demonstrate, since it would require considerations quite beyond those of the dating scene.
Is "what we can get away" asking for the actual limits, and if so how can we even discover that?
A consideration of various situations and various actions, I suppose.
Although it may be dangerous to think that way, it may be necessary in order to be thoroughly clear about the way to proceed and why.
I wonder, is there much any other question that will give the answer we need?

On #2., is "even being angry with our brother is a sin like murder." true to what the verse actually says? That is, please show me how you get that from precisely what is said in the Bible ... I don't see much more than an admonition or warning, to be reconciled to our brother before we are brought into sin, the sin of murder.

Can you please explicate how to unpack, "... included in the sin of adultery." Does there have to be adultery, does adultery actually have to occur, and how is "adultery" defined, does there need to be coitus?
It would seem we have to have actual sexual intercourse for there to be sexual immorality or fornication ? I.e to be against the strictness of God's word.
 
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samir

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Samir,
(I'll greet you that way, and not with a holy kiss, okay? Or is addressing by one's name the holiness of a kiss that is to be added to one's greeting?)

It would appear there can be much speculation about what makes a kiss holy ...

Since the admonition to kiss is given in Scripture FIVE (5) TIMES, including once as "Kiss of Love," surely we should take it very seriously and figure it out, and not simply ignore it as most Christians seem to do.

Greeting one another with a kiss was part of the culture in the area where the New Testament was written. It still is in many parts of the world including among some ethnicities in America.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Holy is not synonymous with non-romantic in general. But consider this verse in question:

ESV 1 Thessalonians 5:26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.

What kind of kiss do you think Paul had in mind? Do you think he had in mind passionate, romantic kissing with "all the brothers"? Of course not!

The kiss he had in mind was almost certainly something similar to what we would call a peck on the cheek. It might not have been exactly that (although it may have been), but it certainly does not fit the context to imagine the kind of passionate kissing that many couples who are dating engage in. This should be common sense.

I think this we do the equivalent in American culture with a "brotherly hug".

I also want to point out that there is nothing indicating that this physical friendship gesture was intended to occur between men and women. It is entirely possible that the guys greeted the guys this way, and the women the women.
"Do you think he had in mind passionate, romantic kissing with "all the brothers"? Of course not!"

WE DO KNOW he had in mind a holy kiss ...
So what makes a kiss a holy kiss?

If it were that he DID have in mind passionate, romantic kissing ...
The verse quoted , 26, brethren are to be greeted with a holy kiss. And does that make them holy, since the next reference to them calls them "holy brethren" and not simply "brethren" like initially?

So IF it was romantic kissing St Paul "was all about" ... (whatever that means, a bit of a stretchy), it might have been mostly directed at the women ... TELLING THEM TO KISS, and the one's you want to restrict to being male ("brethren"), when I think women were very included in the churches, I think that term must include them too. Actually, the men probably needed far less encouragement or admonition to kiss, far less than the women, if it was a holy kiss a romantic kiss...
So it was mainly for the reading of the women ...

IF A HOLY KISS IS A ROMANTIC KISS ...
 
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