Never scripturally a pre antichrist rapture

Quasar92

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Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe himself identified the man of sin as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3



The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.


The translation history of 2 Thess.2:3 as documented in post #54, from Thomas Ice, PhD, refute your above views:

>>>Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillennialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].<<<

The passage of Scripture is about a rapture, NOT a falling away, as verse one so states, "About our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him...," which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where the Church is CAUGHT UP TOGETHER, to meet the Lord in the air.


Quasar92.
 
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Douggg

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The tribulation will not be a time that will produce new believers... the proof :
Revelation 9
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
That is when the six trumpet sounds near the end of the 70th week. It is when the armies of the world are drawn into the middle east to fight the beast in Daniel 11:40-45. The 200,000,000 strong army is the kings of the east marching west, killing as they go.

You could have cited the fourth and fifth vial judgments as well, in Revelation 16:9-11.
 
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sdowney717

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The following Scriptures are the Biblical teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. Take particular notice of the translation history of 2 Thess.2:3, and when and how it was altered:

he Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

Beginning with Mt.24:31:

[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92
You have not 'refuted' anything, your just reposting your own understandings to fit your theology of what you want things to be. Any who post that their brother is deceived by false teaching or a false teacher should look to the logs in their own eyes. That is a scriptural principle of God that those who point out the faults of others, have much greater faults in their own lives, because most of the people who do this are in serious other errors in their life and theology. so they confidently proclaim and teach about things they have no true knowledge of. The authority to judge is not given to most.
 
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sdowney717

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You have been deceived by false teachers as the following Scriptural facts will reveal, for starters:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92
You have not 'refuted' anything, your just reposting your own understandings to fit your theology of what you want things to be. Any who post that their brother is deceived by false teaching or a false teacher should look to the logs in their own eyes. That is a scriptural principle of God that those who point out the faults of others, have much greater faults in their own lives, because most of the people who do this are in serious other errors in their life and theology. so they confidently proclaim and teach about things they have no true knowledge of. The authority to judge is not given to most.
 
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JacksBratt

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Does anyone here, who is not a pre'tribber, have any plan for their time in the "great tribulation", where every authority on earth will have an agenda to find you and get you to either take the mark or kill you?

I am all ears. I want to hear what your plans are.


Since you are sure that we will not be removed until the end.... how is anyone going to survive to that great event.
 
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Quasar92

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They died.
The souls of many Christians are now in heaven with Christ.



The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

Therefore, the "Age of Grace" cannot come to an end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and its pretrib rapture doctrine falls with it.

The origin of this modern doctrine is revealed below.


.


In your first paragraph above, uou wrote: "They died.
The souls of many Christians are now in heaven with Christ"

Which was your reply to my remark, How did the elect get into one end of the heavens to the other, recorded in Mt.24:31.

So just what is wrong with the remark you made made?


Jesus mission in His first advent was exclusively to Israel, that He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.10:5-6. The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet5 arrived, as recorded in Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, tem days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

Therefore: 1. There were NO Christians in that time frame from Israel, who rejected the New Covenant, by denying Jesus as their Messiah. 2. The Israelites who believed in Jesus were but a tiny minority to the total numbers of those who did not. And they belonged to the church of Jesus Christ, after Pentecost. 3. Israel will not accept the New Covenant, or Jesus as their Messiah, until Jesus second coming, recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5. 4. The Church IS NOT Israel, as you keep falsely claiming.


Quasar92





"
 
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BABerean2

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Would you care to explain how the Church gets into heaven for the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.19:7-8, then comes WITH Jesus in His second coming to the earth, in His armies from heaven, in Rev19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5?

Why should we when you ignore the answer over and over again ?

They died.

If all of Israel rejected the Messiah, who was Peter talking to in Acts 2:36 when he referred to "all the house of Israel"?

Why did Paul declare that he was an Israelite in Romans 11:1 ?

Your doctrine only works by ignoring the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.


.
 
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Revealing Times

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Ask yourself, why would Paul writing to the Thessalonian church tell them they would not be gathered to the Lord before the great apostasy and revealing of the Antichrist?, who is now restrained by God (through Michael and his angels who fights the DRAGON and his angels and always wins), unless it was TRUE, that the church will be gathered to Jesus Christ (rapture event) by the angels of God at the end of this age after the great apostasy and revealing of the son of the devil as world leader and ruler?

If you believe any other thing you are believing in a lie. The Day of Christ signals our being gathered (raptured- collected by the angels to be with Christ forever), and is our salvation we long for to deliver us from this present wicked age in which we find ourselves, as Hebrews 9:28 says, and as Peter says, our salvation will be revealed in the LAST TIME at the end of this age, which Christ signifies by His second advent, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
He said no such thing, you just do not understand the passage. The passage says the Church will depart and the Anti-Christ will show up, BEFORE THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD.

Is the Falling Away a false teaching of sorts?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great "Falling Away" also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end (now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” (Definite article points to THIS Gathering together or RAPTURE) This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a "Falling Away". It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1100 years.
 
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Quasar92

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You have not 'refuted' anything, your just reposting your own understandings to fit your theology of what you want things to be. Any who post that their brother is deceived by false teaching or a false teacher should look to the logs in their own eyes. That is a scriptural principle of God that those who point out the faults of others, have much greater faults in their own lives, because most of the people who do this are in serious other errors in their life and theology. so they confidently proclaim and teach about things they have no true knowledge of. The authority to judge is not given to most.


Posts #53 ad #54 refute you, as I previously told you. It is past time to stop arguing with meaningless opinion and try proving your views by Scriptural support. Either refute what I previously posted proving the pre-trib rapture of the Church, or your views are false.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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You have not 'refuted' anything, your just reposting your own understandings to fit your theology of what you want things to be. Any who post that their brother is deceived by false teaching or a false teacher should look to the logs in their own eyes. That is a scriptural principle of God that those who point out the faults of others, have much greater faults in their own lives, because most of the people who do this are in serious other errors in their life and theology. so they confidently proclaim and teach about things they have no true knowledge of. The authority to judge is not given to most.


Posts #53 ad #54 refute you, as I previously told you. It is past time to stop arguing with meaningless opinion and try proving your views by Scriptural support. Either refute what I previously posted proving the pre-trib rapture of the Church, or your views are false


Quasar92.
 
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jgr

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He said no such thing, you just do not understand the passage. The passage says the Church will depart and the Anti-Christ will show up, BEFORE THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD.

Is the Falling Away a false teaching of sorts?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great "Falling Away" also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end (now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” (Definite article points to THIS Gathering together or RAPTURE) This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a "Falling Away". It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1100 years.
There is no conceivable way that any Reformer would have believed in a rapture, because:
1. To a man, they declared (often to the death) that the papacy was antichrist, the man of sin, the son of perdition, under which the true Church was suffering, and had already been suffering for hundreds of years. There had been no rapture.
2. They had never heard of a rapture. It is nowhere to be found within the voluminous writings of the Reformers.

Dr. Ice et al are at distinct variance with Reformation history.

Futurism fantasizes. History realizes.
 
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Quasar92

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Why should we when you ignore the answer over and over again ?

They died.

If all of Israel rejected the Messiah, who was Peter talking to in Acts 2:36 when he referred to "all the house of Israel"?

Why did Paul declare that he was an Israelite in Romans 11:1 ?

Your doctrine only works by ignoring the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.


.


Explain to us why Jesus goes to Israel in His second coming, to prove to them He is their Messiah. thereby accepting the provisions of the New Covenant! You have no argument!


Quasar92
 
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Riberra

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Would you care to explain how the Church gets into heaven for the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.19:7-8, then comes WITH Jesus in His second coming to the earth, in His armies from heaven, in Rev19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5?
This refers to the SOULS of DEAD BELIEVERS [SLEEP IN JESUS] who are already in Heaven....That Jesus will bring with Him TO BE RESURRECTED UNTO HIS COMING.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive and remain, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


That is the same Coming of Jesus that is described in Matthew 24:29-31 ...Jesus is in the clouds in the air ....there is a sound of a trumpet...there is a gathering.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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Riberra

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That is when the six trumpet sounds near the end of the 70th week. It is when the armies of the world are drawn into the middle east to fight the beast in Daniel 11:40-45. The 200,000,000 strong army is the kings of the east marching west, killing as they go.
Revelation 9 refers to the First Woe [5 TH Trumpet Revelation 9:1-12] and the Second Woe [6 TH Trumpet Revelation 9:13-21]...related to supernatural events ...

You could have cited the fourth and fifth vial judgments as well, in Revelation 16:9-11.
Yes i could have...this prove that the Tribulation will not produce any new believers contrary to what you claim.

To be clear... the SAINTS [those who keep the Commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus mentioned in the Book of Revelation [Revelation 12:17...Revelation 13:7-9] ,are the Christians who will have the misfortune to be alive during those times.
 
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Oldmantook

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Does anyone here, who is not a pre'tribber, have any plan for their time in the "great tribulation", where every authority on earth will have an agenda to find you and get you to either take the mark or kill you?

I am all ears. I want to hear what your plans are.


Since you are sure that we will not be removed until the end.... how is anyone going to survive to that great event.
The fact is some, perhaps even the majority will be martyred. But take heart for the Bible states:
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)
The reward for remaining faithful and persevering during the tribulation time will be the privilege and reward to rule and co-reign with Christ during his millennial rein on earth. That should be the goal of every living Christian.

As far as preparation goes, we know that there will be pestilence and famine so it would be prudent to prepare by stocking up on food and essentials. God warned Joseph in the OT about a coming famine so he enabled the Pharaoh/Egyptian people to prepare for such an event. Violence will abound so if you are not averse to firearms, the protection of your family may unfortunately be necessary. No one will be able to buy and sell without the mark, so other form of barter or trade may be necessary. Purchasing gold or silver coins may be advantageous if/when the economy collapses as precious metals do not lose their value. The example of what is happening now in ravaged Puerto Rico should give you clues to how to prepare.

The most important thing though is no matter what happens, above all, remain in an abiding and obedient relationship with the Lord. The state of your spiritual preparation is always more important than your physical preparation so that you will always be ready to meet the Lord, no matter when he comes back. You don't want to be like the 5 virgins who were left behind.

Even if you maintain a pretrib view, would it not be prudent to prepare for the tribulation - just in case your belief does not pan out? Would you not regret being unprepared just in case - since no one is infallible when it comes to knowing everything in the Bible. Especially if you have family members who are children, I'm sure you would want to provide and protect for their welfare and safety as best you can and trust, leave the rest up to God.
 
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Douggg

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Yes i could have...this prove that the Tribulation will not produce any new believers contrary to what you claim.

To be clear... the SAINTS [those who keep the Commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus mentioned in the Book of Revelation [Revelation 12:17...Revelation 13:7-9] ,are the Christians who will have the misfortune to be alive during those times.
No what it proves is that near the end of the 7 years, men who have not already become Christians after the Day of the Lord begins, will not repent and turn to God.

It is years into the Day of the Lord, before the final judgments takes place. During that time, multitudes will become Christians.
 
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BABerean2

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Explain to us why Jesus goes to Israel in H8is second coming, to prove to thejm He is their Messiah. thereby accepting the provisions of the New Covenant! You have no argument!

You are arguing with Christ, instead of me.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

Mat 25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 

Mat 25:2  And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 

Mat 25:3  They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 

Mat 25:4  But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 

Mat 25:5  While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 

Mat 25:6  And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 

Mat 25:7  Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 

Mat 25:8  And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 
Mat 25:9  But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
 

Mat 25:10  And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
 

Mat 25:11  Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 

Mat 25:12  But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 

Mat 25:13  Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. 



When Christ returns in flaming fire, there will be no second chances.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 


2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 


2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 


2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 


Explain to me how you can continue to ignore Acts 2:36, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

.
 
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Riberra

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No what it proves is that near the end of the 7 years, men who have not already become Christians after the Day of the Lord begins, will not repent and turn to God.

It is years into the Day of the Lord, before the final judgments takes place. During that time, multitudes will become Christians.
The DAY of the Lord is the Day of His Coming ...not the whole Tribulation time.

Revelation 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. BLESSED is he that WATCHETH, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Those that will be gathered at Armageddon are ALL THOSE WHO HAVE TAKEN THE MARK AND WORSHIPED THE BEAST along with the armies of the world.

Revelation 19:17
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come [and] be gathered together unto the great supper of God; 18 that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit thereon, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, and small and great.
 
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Douggg

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The DAY of the Lord is the Day of His Coming ...not the whole Tribulation time.

Revelation 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. BLESSED is he that WATCHETH, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Those that will be gathered at Armageddon are ALL THOSE WHO HAVE TAKEN THE MARK AND WORSHIPED THE BEAST along with the armies of the world.

Revelation 19:17
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come [and] be gathered together unto the great supper of God; 18 that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit thereon, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, and small and great.
No, the Day of the Lord is a sudden change at a time forthcoming when the world is saying "Peace and Safety". No-one is going to be saying peace and safety once the great tribulation starts.
_____________________________________________________________
1Thessalonians5:1-4

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
________________________________________________________

Here is the distinction of when the Day of the Lord begins, then the great tribulation begins a short time afterward..

Day of the Lord - begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.

he will be killed for the act and brought back to life with the persona of being the beast.

Great tribulation - begins when the image of the beast is setup to be worshiped, the abomination of desolation.
 
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Riberra

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No, the Day of the Lord is a sudden change at a time forthcoming when the world is saying "Peace and Safety". No-one is going to be saying peace and safety once the great tribulation starts.
_____________________________________________________________
1Thessalonians5:1-4

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Revelation 16:15-16 is when Jesus will come as a thief...

Revelation 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. BLESSED is he that WATCHETH, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
 
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