What does this verse mean? Was Paul a liar?

LittleLambofJesus

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Matthew 15:24-28

Oh, my, yes, sarcasm was a high art in 1st century Graeco-Roman culture.

There is some sarcasm from God also represented in the OT, and that is through the unincarnated Christ.

Was Jesus ever sarcastic? Maybe here:

"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
Like Jesus, Paul wasn't one to mince words when it came to the Jewish rulers.

Acts 23:
2 The yet Chief-priest Ananias enjoins those standing beside him to be smiting him on the mouth.
3 Then the Paul said toward him, "God is being about to be smiting thee thou whitewashed wall!
and thou thou dost sitting judging me according to the law and being beside law, ordering me to be being smitten!'
 
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RDKirk

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Like Jesus, Paul wasn't one to mince words when it came to the Jewish rulers.

It can be worse. When the Lord of All Creation commands, "Woe be unto you!" the forces of woe stand up and get into line.

so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
 
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dqhall

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Perhaps Paul wasnt using sarcasm. Perhaps he was just echoing his critics. I dont know.
This is another passage difficult to discern:
1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV)
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

In this passage, Paul confessed to being a chief sinner. Some translators assumed Paul was writing he was the worse sinner. Paul may have made a promise he could not keep or been unfair in some way. Overall Paul deserves praise for the good paragraphs he left to us. God has to work with imperfect people as the human race is not perfect.
 
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TaylorSexton

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Isn't sarcasm a form of lying?

No more than hyperbole, jest, satire, simile, metaphor, allegory, or any other figures of speech. Each of these literary and rhetorical devices has its proper place and context (which do not seem to be the concern of a few in this thread), and are perfectly within the realm of truth.

There are instances in Scripture where the prophets, the epistle writers, and even Jesus and God the Father themselves use sarcasm to make their points. In fact, Jesus told many stories that are, in most (if not all) cases, 100% fiction (i.e., false)–we call them parables. We see no problem because, like sarcasm, we understand the rhetorical value of parables and why Jesus used them.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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No more than hyperbole, jest, satire, simile, metaphor, allegory, or any other figures of speech. Each of these literary and rhetorical devices has its proper place and context (which do not seem to be the concern of a few in this thread), and are perfectly within the realm of truth.

There are instances in Scripture where the prophets, the epistle writers, and even Jesus and God the Father themselves use sarcasm to make their points. In fact, Jesus told many stories that are, in most (if not all) cases, 100% fiction (i.e., false)–we call them parables. We see no problem because, like sarcasm, we understand the rhetorical value of parables and why Jesus used them.
Well said......
Some believe that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is a real story, esp since it mentions Abraham and Moses.
This parable is the largest study I have of the NT, with Revelation being close behind.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? It is strenuously denied by most evangelists that this story, as told by Christ, could be a parable. They hold that this is not a parable because it starts out in narrative form........

Jesus continually spoke in parables. A parable is an analogy - a simile, representation or analogous story - which could even be a fable, so long as it is used to illustrate certain essential points of TRUTH. An analogy is not necessarily the truth all by itself - but is analogous to the TRUTH which it helps to illustrate.
 
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Denadii

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2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

I find this very distressing. Surely Paul wasn't a liar, was he?

Read on! Read right to the end of the chapter..Paul explains himself.
16 Let it be granted, then, that I was not a burden to you; but, crafty fellow that I am, I took you with trickery! 17 Was it perhaps through someone I sent you 18 that I took advantage of you? I urged Titus to go and sent the brother with him; Titus didn’t take advantage of you, did he? Didn’t we live by the same Spirit and show you the same path?

19 Perhaps you think that all this time we have been defending ourselves before you. No, we have been speaking in the sight of God, as those united with the Messiah should; and, my dear friends, it is all for your upbuilding. 20 For I am afraid of coming and finding you not the way I want you to be, and also of not being found the way you want me to be. I am afraid of finding quarreling and jealousy, anger and rivalry, slander and gossip, arrogance and disorder. 21 I am afraid that when I come again, my God may humiliate me in your presence, and that I will be grieved over many of those who sinned in the past and have not repented of the impurity, fornication and debauchery that they have engaged in.
 
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Righttruth

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absolute rubbish! Paul was a very godly person, and would never use any form of "deception" in his work of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Though he was a saint and disciple of Jesus, nevertheless, he was troubled by a messenger of Satan for egoism that led to deviation from the sublime essence of the teaching of Jesus.
 
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Righttruth

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What are you on about? Paul had no agenda of his own, he lived for the Gospel of His Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. What "unsupported" self-claims can you show of Paul?

He had very little knowledge of the Gospel. The published book "Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel?" elaborates on his self-claims.
 
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Denadii

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Though he was a saint and disciple of Jesus, nevertheless, he was troubled by a messenger of Satan for egoism that led to deviation from the sublime essence of the teaching of Jesus.

"he was troubled by a messenger of Satan for egoism that led to deviation from the sublime essence of the teaching of Jesus."
What's that? It sounds like something but I can't make it out.
 
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Rescued One

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But did Paul DECEIVE (lie) in order to gain converts?

NO!
2 Corinthians 12:17
Did I make a gain of you

He appeals to the Corinthians against such calumnies and false insinuations, whether ever he had circumvented them in such a manner, or had ever used such artful methods to pillage them; or whether ever he had discovered any covetous disposition towards anything of theirs; or had employed any persons to draw out their substance from them, and get it for himself: he owns he had sent some persons to them on different errands, and asks if he had dealt fraudulently with them,
by any of them whom,
says he,
I have sent to you:
he desires them to name one single person of the many who came to them from him, that had received any money from them for him; or that they had any reason to believe he had employed for such purposes; and if they could not pitch on a single instance, they ought therefore to look upon this as a downright slander and calumny.
2 Corinthians 12:17 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
 
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Rescued One

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Matthew Henry (part of his commentary; read the rest by using the link at the bottom)

Verses 11-21 In these verses the apostle addresses himself to the Corinthians two ways:—I. He blames them for what was faulty in them; namely, that they had not stood up in his defence as they ought to have done, and so made it the more needful for him to insist so much on his own vindication. They in manner compelled him to commend himself, who ought to have been commended of them v. 11. And had they, or some among them, not failed on their part, it would have been less needful for him to have said so much on his own behalf. He tells them further that they in particular had good reason to speak well of him, as being in nothing behind the very chief apostles, because he had given them full proof and evidence of his apostleship; for the signs of an apostle were wrought among them in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. Note, 1. It is a debt we owe to good men to stand up in the defence of their reputation; and we are under special obligations to those we have received benefit by, especially spiritual benefit, to own them as instruments in God’s hand of good to us, and to vindicate them when they are calumniated by others. 2. How much soever we are, or ought to be, esteemed by others, we ought always to think humbly of ourselves. See an example of this in this great apostle, who thought himself to be nothing, though in truth he was not behind the greatest apostles—so far was he from seeking praise from men, though he tells them their duty to vindicate his reputation—so far was he from applauding himself, when he was forced to insist upon his own necessary self-defence.II. He gives a large account of his behaviour and kind intentions towards them, in which we may observe the character of a faithful minister of the gospel. 1. He was not willing to be burdensome to them, nor did he seek theirs, but them. He says (v. 13) he had not been burdensome to them, for the time past, and tells them (v. 14) he would not be burdensome to them for the time to come, when he should come to them. He spared their purses, and did not covet their money:I seek not yours but you. He sought not to enrich himself, but to save their souls: he did not desire to make a property of them to himself, but to gain them over to Christ, whose servant he was. Note, Those who aim at clothing themselves with the fleece of the flock, and take no care of the sheep, are hirelings, and not good shepherds. 2. He would gladly spend and be spent for them (v. 15); that is, he was willing to take pains and to suffer loss for their good. He would spend his time, his parts, his strength, his interest, his all, to do them service; nay, so spend as to be spent, and be like a candle, which consumes itself to give light to others. 3. He did not abate in his love to them, notwithstanding their unkindness and ingratitude to him; and therefore was contented and glad to take pains with them, though the more abundantly he loved them the less he was loved, v. 15. This is applicable to other relations: if others be wanting in their duty to us it does not follow therefore that we may neglect our duty to them. 4. He was careful not only that he himself should not be burdensome, but that none he employed should. This seems to be the meaning of what we read, v. 16-18. If it should be objected by any that though he did not himself burden them, yet, being crafty, he caught them with guile, that is, he sent those among them who pillaged them, and afterwards he shared with them in the profit: "This was not so,’’ says the apostle; "I did not make a gain of you myself, nor by any of those whom I sent; nor did Titus, nor any others—We walked by the same spirit and in the same steps.’’ They all agreed in this matter to do them all the good they could, without being burdensome to them, to promote the gospel among them and make it as easy to them as possible. Or, this may be read with an interrogation, as utterly disclaiming any guile in himself and others towards them. 5. He was a man who did all things for edifying, v. 19. This was his great aim and design, to do good, to lay the foundation well, and then with care and diligence to build the superstructure. 6. He would not shrink from his duty for fear of displeasing them, though he was so careful to make himself easy to them. Therefore he was resolved to be faithful in reproving sin, though he was therein found to be such as they would not, v. 20. The apostle here mentions several sins that are too commonly found among professors of religion, and are very reprovable: debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults; and, though those who are guilty of these sins can hardly bear to be reproved for them, yet faithful ministers must not fear offending the guilty by sharp reproofs, as they are needful, in public and in private. 7. He was grieved at the apprehension that he should find scandalous sins among them not duly repented of. This, he tells them, would be the cause of great humiliation and lamentation. Note, (1.) The falls and miscarriages of professors cannot but be a humbling consideration to a good minister; and God sometimes takes this way to humble those who might be under temptation to be lifted up: I fear lest my God will humble me among you. (2.) We have reason to bewail those who sin and do not repent, to bewail many that have sinned, and have not repented,v. 21. If these have not, as yet, grace to mourn and lament their own case, their case is the more lamentable; and those who love God, and love them, should mourn for them.

2 Corinthians 12 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Matthew Henry (part of his commentary; read the rest by using the link at the bottom)

2 Corinthians 12 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
That is an extensive commentary and thks.
This site has shorter versions of commentaries, but it also delves into the greek.

2 Corinthians 12:16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!

2 Corinthians 12:16 Commentaries: But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.
Commentaries

Expositor's Greek Testament

2 Corinthians 12:16. ἔστω δὲ κ.τ.λ.: but he it so! I did not myself burden you (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:9 and 2 Corinthians 12:13). This the Corinthians grant as indisputable, but they allege a sinister reason, viz., being crafty (for ὑπάρχων see on 2 Corinthians 8:17) I caught you (see on 2 Corinthians 11:20) with guile (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2, μὴ περιπατοῦντες ἐν πανουργίᾳ μηδὲ δολοῦντες κ.τ.λ.).
That is, his adversaries hinted that, although he did not accept maintenance directly, yet the collection made for the Judæan Christians was under his hand, and that he was not above suspicion in his disposal of it. To this he returns an indignant denial, and appeals directly to their own observation of the messengers whom he had sent, of whom Titus (at least) had met him in Macedonia with a report (2 Corinthians 7:6) and was sent back to Corinth with two companions to complete the business, carrying this letter (2 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 8:18 ff.).
 
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Rescued One

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That is an extensive commentary and thks.
This site has shorter versions of commentaries, but it also delves into the greek.

2 Corinthians 12:16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!
2 Corinthians 12:16 Commentaries: But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

Expositor's Greek Testament
2 Corinthians 12:16. ἔστω δὲ κ.τ.λ.: but he it so! I did not myself burden you (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:9 and 2 Corinthians 12:13). This the Corinthians grant as indisputable, but they allege a sinister reason, viz., being crafty (for ὑπάρχων see on 2 Corinthians 8:17) I caught you (see on 2 Corinthians 11:20) with guile (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2, μὴ περιπατοῦντες ἐν πανουργίᾳ μηδὲ δολοῦντες κ.τ.λ.).
That is, his adversaries hinted that, although he did not accept maintenance directly, yet the collection made for the Judæan Christians was under his hand, and that he was not above suspicion in his disposal of it. To this he returns an indignant denial, and appeals directly to their own observation of the messengers whom he had sent, of whom Titus (at least) had met him in Macedonia with a report (2 Corinthians 7:6) and was sent back to Corinth with two companions to complete the business, carrying this letter (2 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 8:18 ff.).

EXCELLENT!
 
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Saved.By.Grace

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He had very little knowledge of the Gospel. The published book "Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel?" elaborates on his self-claims.

Have you read Paul's OWN accounts? Books are written to sell!
 
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Righttruth

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"he was troubled by a messenger of Satan for egoism that led to deviation from the sublime essence of the teaching of Jesus."
What's that? It sounds like something but I can't make it out.


2 Corinthians 12
7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!
 
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Foxfyre

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2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

I find this very distressing. Surely Paul wasn't a liar, was he?

In II Corinthians 12 Paul is defending his credentials and honor, both of which had apparently been called into question. Within that context, I think the line "I took you in by deceit"--the word 'deceit' is competently translated 'trickery'--is much the same as we might sarcastically say if we were being attacked: "Oh yeah, I am a terrible person" or "Of course I'm a racist."

The verses preceding and after that particular phrase easily allow us to put it into that sarcastic kind of category as I see it.
 
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Saved.By.Grace

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Though he was a saint and disciple of Jesus, nevertheless, he was troubled by a messenger of Satan for egoism that led to deviation from the sublime essence of the teaching of Jesus.

says you!
 
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He had very little knowledge of the Gospel. The published book "Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel?" elaborates on his self-claims.

it is always better to read more of what the Bible actually says, than what others might say about what it does! We need God the Holy Spirit grant us understanding as we read His Word.
 
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