The Creator Has Invalidated Knowing Earth's Age Through Scientific Enquiry

Obliquinaut

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Just as spooky as someone who thinks they're an animal and related to a monkey.

This always frustrates me. We are animals. We share a common chemistry, a common genetic scheme, a common biology, we breathe, eat, mate, do everything animals do. And why is it so scary to be related to one group of animals moreso than others? Is it not obvious that we are related closely to the apes?

Doesn't it make us "one" with the ecosystem? We must protect the ecosystem for all animals because we are part and parcel of that ecosystem.

A great deal of our "problems" as residents on this planet is we forget WE ARE ENDANGERED BY OUR ACTIONS AS WELL. We can't take ourselves out of the web of life nor should we.

If one wishes to think we are some sort of "special" animal in that we are more beloved by their God than the rest of the animals or some such, that's fine, so long as we don't forget that when we kill of a species of animal we threaten our ecosystem and ourselves because we're part of the same web.
 
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AV1611VET

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If this mushy sort of pseudo-philosophical "angels on the head of a pin" type of reasoning helps square that particular circle you and a very small number of Christians feel needs squaring, then good on ya!
Ya ... good on me.

Just don't go saying I believe something I don't, or I just might correct you.

I'm sure the scientific mind in you would want you to be corrected, would it not?
 
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Obliquinaut

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Ya ... good on me.

Just don't go saying I believe something I don't, or I just might correct you.

I wouldn't dream of it. I understand you don't hold yourself to that same requirement (like when you accused me of being anti-semitic -- I don't recall you apologizing for that either), but I understand that as a Christian you are allowed to ignore Luke 6:31.

I'm sure the scientific mind in you would want you to be corrected, would it not?

No, I just wanted to understand your point. And as I said at one point I actually kind of had grudging respect for it, until I realized you weren't even thinking that far into it. My bad. I should have known that if you came up with something worthy of some sort of respect it would probably be me misinterpreting it. :)
 
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2tim_215

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This always frustrates me. We are animals. We share a common chemistry, a common genetic scheme, a common biology, we breathe, eat, mate, do everything animals do. And why is it so scary to be related to one group of animals moreso than others? Is it not obvious that we are related closely to the apes?
By a common creator. No more scary to the things you find "kooky".

Obliquinaut said:
Doesn't it make us "one" with the ecosystem? We must protect the ecosystem for all animals because we are part and parcel of that ecosystem.
Who cares about being "one with the ecosystem"? I care more about being one with God (and if we are, then we would be one with His ecosystem). But yes, it's our responsibility to care for it, considering we're the ones who screwed it up. God didn't create it this way.

Obliquinaut said:
A great deal of our "problems" as residents on this planet is we forget WE ARE ENDANGERED BY OUR ACTIONS AS WELL. We can't take ourselves out of the web of life nor should we.
Absolutely true. Wait until the nukes start flying. It won't be God who's launching those.

Obliquinaut said:
If one wishes to think we are some sort of "special" animal in that we are more beloved by their God than the rest of the animals or some such, that's fine, so long as we don't forget that when we kill of a species of animal we threaten our ecosystem and ourselves because we're part of the same web.
According to the Bible, we're not the same and that's what I'm willing to stand on. Here are the scriptures which lead me to this belief which I've boldfaced and underlined for you. I've added some additional scripture to give you a little more contextual insight for those who might be interested:
1 Corinthians 15:35-50(KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 
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Speedwell

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39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
That's all very well if you want to believe that there are some qualitative metaphysical differences between those kinds of flesh. If you want to make a scientific proposition out of it, then you are going to have to demonstrate those differences empirically. Go for it.
 
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Speedwell

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The Human Genome vs the Animal Genome. Is that something different or are they the same?
They are not qualitatively different. Indeed, they are even quantitatively very similar.
 
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2tim_215

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So when does "similar" mean "identical"? Logically it stands to reason that all living things would have some similarities between them if they came from the same common creator. It also stands to reason that they wouldn't be identical. Basically some want to turn what's obviously common creator into a common ancestor.
 
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2tim_215

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Is this considered Evidence?:
Today in politics: Live updates - CNNPolitics
Just so happens to have come out on the news today. Of course some of you will poo-poo this as either "luck" or "chance" or just some "random event" but that's ok, keep on believing what you want to believe, so will I based on ALL the evidence (which some of you apparently wish to ignore), not just science.
 
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Speedwell

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So when does "similar" mean "identical"? Logically it stands to reason that all living things would have some similarities between them if they came from the same common creator. It also stands to reason that they wouldn't be identical. Basically some want to turn what's obviously common creator into a common ancestor.
Perhaps so. I, for one, accept a common ancestor as a reasonable inference from the available data. I also believe in a common creator, so I have no need to exchange one for the other.
 
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Obliquinaut

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Who cares about being "one with the ecosystem"? I care more about being one with God (and if we are, then we would be one with His ecosystem). But yes, it's our responsibility to care for it, considering we're the ones who screwed it up. God didn't create it this way.


And when we think of ourselves as some sort of God-ordained caretakers rather than having skin in the game inherently I fear that all the prayers in the world won't amount to a hill of beans.

According to the Bible, we're not the same and that's what I'm willing to stand on.


I have never wanted to be so self-proud that I thought I was inherently better than all other life on earth. I don't know if I understand that "need" many people have to distance themselves from the rest of life.

I am proud, yes, but my pride isn't something I'm particularly "proud of". I find it a weakness in myself. It would be cool if there was a verse in the bible preaching against pride or something like that.

If we are too proud to remember we are part and parcel of this world we risk treating this world as a disposable rag.

Even Christians who find the earth to be a horrible sin-ridden place are confusing to me. If God gave them access to the earth, how must He feel when so many Christians whine for a "better place" (heaven)? "Hey thanks for the ummmm, place here God, but I'm going to hold out for the really good thing! When can you give me that thing?"
 
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Obliquinaut

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Is this considered Evidence?:
Today in politics: Live updates - CNNPolitics
Just so happens to have come out on the news today. Of course some of you will poo-poo this as either "luck" or "chance" or just some "random event" but that's ok, keep on believing what you want to believe, so will I based on ALL the evidence (which some of you apparently wish to ignore), not just science.

Scalise's survival? A miracle? I dont' know what "specific things" he prayed for but I'm guessing it was "God please let me live" and along those lines.

Was a miracle that the shooter didn't hit him such a place as to cause immediate death? Or chance? Was it a miracle that provided doctors and surgeons and technology that kept him alive? (Because I'm pretty sure some doctors later came long into the process).

If we take every example of a random "good" outcome, we must also account for every single time innocent people died.

Was Steve Scalise more beloved of God than some child in Mexico City killed in an earthquake?
 
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2tim_215

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And when we think of ourselves as some sort of God-ordained caretakers rather than having skin in the game inherently I fear that all the prayers in the world won't amount to a hill of beans.
I can't disagree with you here, you're right about this (and as I said previously, it is our responsibility since we're the ones who created this mess in the first place).

Obliquinaut said:
I have never wanted to be so self-proud that I thought I was inherently better than all other life on earth. I don't know if I understand that "need" many people have to distance themselves from the rest of life.
You're also right about this. God hates pride. To Him it's an abomination so if I seem to be prideful to you, in nor way I am intending to be that way.

Obliquinaut said:
I am proud, yes, but my pride isn't something I'm particularly "proud of". I find it a weakness in myself. It would be cool if there was a verse in the bible preaching against pride or something like that.
Years ago, when I had first gotten into Christianity on a serious scale and for the first time in my life was attending a church on a regular basis., I found myself immersing my self in the Scripture and learning more and more about God and the way a Christian should act. I would read through it, see areas I was either lacking in or just downright out of kilter as far as the way I was living my life when finally, after about 6 years of constant study, I actually thought I had it figured out and was now living the way I thought I should be living based on what the Bible told me. Then it happened. I as studying and I found something that I had never noticed before, Proverbs 16:5 where we're told that Pride is an abomination to God.
Proverbs 16:5(KJV) Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

Then I found the following verses:
Proverbs 6:16-19(KJV) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Notice what's at the top of the list. So yes, pride is one of our biggest enemies.

Obliquinaut said:
If we are too proud to remember we are part and parcel of this world we risk treating this world as a disposable rag.

We pretty much have done that and I don't see things changing in that regard.

Obliquinaut said:
Even Christians who find the earth to be a horrible sin-ridden place are confusing to me. If God gave them access to the earth, how must He feel when so many Christians whine for a "better place" (heaven)? "Hey thanks for the ummmm, place here God, but I'm going to hold out for the really good thing! When can you give me that thing?"
You really need to get a better understanding of the Christian mindset. Without going into in much more depth, one Christian are told that "there is a much better place" where there is no pain or suffering or sickness or hunger (who wouldn't want that if it was available?) and there will be no more injustice (you can't deny that there is a great deal of injustice in the world today and pretty much always has been). I don't know about "whining" but accepting it as truth is another thing. The Bible tells us as believers that we are to "be in the world" just not "of it".
 
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2tim_215

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Scalise's survival? A miracle? I dont' know what "specific things" he prayed for but I'm guessing it was "God please let me live" and along those lines.

Obliquinaut said:
Was a miracle that the shooter didn't hit him such a place as to cause immediate death? Or chance? Was it a miracle that provided doctors and surgeons and technology that kept him alive? (Because I'm pretty sure some doctors later came long into the process).

Obliquinaut said:
If we take every example of a random "good" outcome, we must also account for every single time innocent people died.

Obliquinaut said:
Was Steve Scalise more beloved of God than some child in Mexico City killed in an earthquake?
I'm sure there were many Mexican kids who were spared. I'll let you figure out why God spares some and not others. Here's a few articles that might help explain it to you. Although these articles apply to healing, I believe the same principles would apply to life and death:
Inconsistency in Miracles, Healings, and Answers to Prayer
Why does God heal some people and not others?
Why Does God Allow Some To Die And Others To Live?
https://bible.org/question/why-are-some-believers-miraculously-healed-and-others-aren’t-it-demonic
Why aren’t some people healed? | Revealing Truth Today
https://sidroth.org/articles/why-havent-i-been-healed/
When God Doesn't Heal
 
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Obliquinaut

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I'm sure there were many Mexican kids who were spared. I'll let you figure out why God spares some and not others. Here's a few articles that might help explain it to you. Although these articles apply to healing, I believe the same principles would apply to life and death:
Inconsistency in Miracles, Healings, and Answers to Prayer
Why does God heal some people and not others?
Why Does God Allow Some To Die And Others To Live?
https://bible.org/question/why-are-some-believers-miraculously-healed-and-others-aren’t-it-demonic
Why aren’t some people healed? | Revealing Truth Today
https://sidroth.org/articles/why-havent-i-been-healed/
When God Doesn't Heal

It is a wonder to behold that so much exegeses can exist to explain the inconsistent application of "mercy".

There are two ways to figure it: either the system is so incredibly complex that it is nearly impossible to tell with any certainty whether a GOP congressman will be protected by God or if a child will be killed in an earthquake OR that sometimes bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people and vice versa.

I prefer to go with the more "parsimonious" explanation. Because then you don't have to be a good person who just lost the love of their life and is now trying to figure out why God would have done that thing to them while the greed monster down the street gets richer and richer by destroying lives.

The "Problem of Evil" is only important when you have to explain why an all-merciful God would ever want to withhold mercy.
 
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2tim_215

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It is a wonder to behold that so much exegeses can exist to explain the inconsistent application of "mercy".

There are two ways to figure it: either the system is so incredibly complex that it is nearly impossible to tell with any certainty whether a GOP congressman will be protected by God or if a child will be killed in an earthquake OR that sometimes bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people and vice versa.

I prefer to go with the more "parsimonious" explanation. Because then you don't have to be a good person who just lost the love of their life and is now trying to figure out why God would have done that thing to them while the greed monster down the street gets richer and richer by destroying lives.

The "Problem of Evil" is only important when you have to explain why an all-merciful God would ever want to withhold mercy.
Matthew 5:43-48(KJV) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 nd if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
IT RAINS ON THE JUST AND THE UNJUST

Psalms 73:9-28(KJV)
9 They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth.
10 Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them.
11 And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High?
12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
13 Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
14 For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
16 When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
21 Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins.
22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.
23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.
26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.
27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.
Psalm 73: Why does God allow the wicked to prosper?
 
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Gene2memE

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Strobel was not an apologist when he set out on his journey. He was an outright skeptic and an "atheist" like yourself.

So he claims. Evidence of such, apart from his personal testimony, is non-existent.

So here's the question: if you were attempting to do some honest unbiased research with the intent of proving something legitimately (in this case the negative), and were so certain you were right, who would you conduct interviews with to emphatically prove the other side wrong, the side that you agree with or the opposite side.

I'd interview both sides. Then I'd compare and evaluate their answers.

Strobel, on the other hand, only seems to interview people who all agree with a singular position. It's telling.

If you picked the other side, I'd call it fair, unbiased research. He could have refuted what they said and did at first, but then got slowly turned around after getting all the evidence he was able to acquire. You see, when all the evidence is taken in, any logica, honest person will come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Christ, which is the conclusion Strobel eventually came to based on solid evidence. I suggest this book for anyone who's interested in seeing an unbiased opinion and good solid reason for believing in Jesus.

I suggest this book for anyone that wants to see how dishonest US Evangelical-style apologetics is.

The man, who disbelieved, was an honest researcher and that's typically what happens when a skeptic takes the time to perform fair, unbiased research. Look at the man's research before putting him down and reading just a couple of pages doesn't give you enough insight to criticize him so harshly.

Yeah, an "honest researcher" - who only looked at one side of the argument, and then only the slice of it that appeared to line up with the answers he wanted.

That's called stacking the deck, and its a dishonest practice.

I was a practicing Catholic until well into my adulthood - choirboy, altar boy, Sunday school, Jesuit education, the whole works. My atheism is an outgrowth of my skepticism, which itself is an outgrowth of both my tertiary education and my employment. I've done the research, including serious academic study on biblical minimalism and maximalism and ancient Near East history.

That's why I'm an atheist.
 
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MrAnderson9

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The Earth does "look" and does have "scientific evidence" that makes it "appear" that it is billions of years old.


However, the God of the Bible still has the upperhand in truth and knowledge that all people of Modern Period need. Without Him, the Bible, and Faith they will stumble.

While it is highly possible that God could have in fact staged existence.. I find that very unlikely. unlikely for the simple reason that God lives in Eternity and isn't subject to time. Why the need to speed things up? There is no need. We exist linear.. not God. God sees it all at once. There is no need for God to stage anything.

And anything that God gives us, we know it to be true from our logical perspective. All we have in determining is that Logic.. the same logic we use as evidence of the existence of God. If our logic fails us in the instance.. then our logic is flawed and everything we think we believe is wrapped in uncertainty.
 
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2tim_215

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So he claims. Evidence of such, apart from his personal testimony, is non-existent.
What other evidence is there? No one's stopping you (or anyone else) from digging it up. That's great. Anytime someone claims something, just deny it and that's your evidence. You said you only read the first couple of pages. Sure makes you the expert on the book. Harsh criticize it without having read it. Oh, and you didn't even read the book in question. The one you read the two pages on was a different book.

Gene2memE said:
I'd interview both sides. Then I'd compare and evaluate their answers.
Most likely, you'd already knew the other side pretty well and have read most of the materials on it. After doing the research that Strobel did, you could certainly "brush up" and then counter whatever arguments that you feel weren't valid.
Gene2memE said:
Strobel, on the other hand, only seems to interview people who all agree with a singular position. It's telling.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that when he first started doing those interviews he had the opposite viewpoint (rather strongly) and if you saw (or read) some of the interviews you'd know he challenged those experts vehemently. He was very strongly opposed to Christianity when he first embarked on his research.

Gene2memE said:
I suggest this book for anyone that wants to see how dishonest US Evangelical-style apologetics is.
I suggest that anyone who happens to be interested in seeing the results when an intelligent atheist skeptic does the actual fair and honest research, he finds that he was wrong in what he initially believed. There's a number of cases like this where people who didn't believe at first when all was said and done, wound up doing a complete turnaround.

Gene2memE said:
Yeah, an "honest researcher" - who only looked at one side of the argument, and then only the slice of it that appeared to line up with the answers he wanted.
Didn't really need to look at the other side, he was the other side. I'm pretty sure he was well versed in that alternate mode of thinking. Plus he'd probably already done quite a bit of research prior to taking on this monumental task.

Gene2memE said:
That's called stacking the deck, and its a dishonest practice.
Take someone who's totally opposed to your viewpoint and has a pre-conceived notion, I'd say the deck was already stacked towards your previous belief.

Gene2memE said:
I was a practicing Catholic until well into my adulthood - choirboy, altar boy, Sunday school, Jesuit education, the whole works. My atheism is an outgrowth of my skepticism, which itself is an outgrowth of both my tertiary education and my employment. I've done the research, including serious academic study on biblical minimalism and maximalism and ancient Near East history.
I truly feel sorry for you. Personally, I could see how one could get soured by some of the things you had to experience at a young person. It's not uncommon.

Gene2memE said:
That's why I'm an atheist.
You might want to do a little bit of rethinking on the subject.
 
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While it is highly possible that God could have in fact staged existence.. I find that very unlikely. unlikely for the simple reason that God lives in Eternity and isn't subject to time. Why the need to speed things up? There is no need. We exist linear.. not God. God sees it all at once. There is no need for God to stage anything.

And anything that God gives us, we know it to be true from our logical perspective. All we have in determining is that Logic.. the same logic we use as evidence of the existence of God. If our logic fails us in the instance.. then our logic is flawed and everything we think we believe is wrapped in uncertainty.
Why would a sovereign God need to use deception since He doesn't need to answer to anyone? If He were so arbitrary and mean, I'm sure there's a lot of other things He could do to us (and much worse) if He was intent on bringing us harm or misleading us. There's something most of us are missing here, I'm sure of it.
Matthew 7:7-11(KJV) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
God does not give us bad things as long as we trust in Him.
 
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