Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

Neostarwcc · Sep 28, 2017

Adstar said:
And you can add to that the question.. Who lead the Hebrews through the desert in the pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night during the exodus during those many years they wandered through the wilderness ??? Let scriptures tell us..

1 Corinthians 10: KJV
1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; {2} And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; {3} And did all eat the same spiritual meat; {4} And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

And you can also add to that the question.. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Now if you are a Bible believing Christian you must believe that God rasied jesus from the dead.. It is part of the core doctrines we must believe.. Right ??

Romans 10: KJV
8 "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; {9} That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

So all Christians must believe that God raised Jesus from the dead.. If they want to be saved that is.. Now read what Jesus said,,

John 2: KJV
18 "¶ Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? {19} Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. {20} Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? {21} But he spake of the temple of his body. {22} When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said."

Now Jesus was talking about the Temple of His own Body.. And who did Jesus say was going to Raise Him from the Dead??? """ I will raise it up. """ So God raised Jesus from the dead and Jesus raised Jesus from the dead , Both are true,, because Jesus is God

Right, Jesus did. Didn't the Holy Spirit raise Jesus from the dead? Or was it God the Father? Or all three? This asks the question how can a dead man raise himself up from the dead? It's obviously true since Jesus said he would raise himself but, I'm actually not sure and that's a good question.

iwbswiaihl2 · Sep 28, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
You may disagree, but you are very wrong! In Isaiah 48, the Speaker is Yahweh, and in verse 16, He says: "Come here. Listen to this: From the beginning I have spoken nothing in private. From the time it took place, I was there. Now the Almighty LORD has sent Me and His Spirit." Notice, "The Lord (Yahweh), sent "Me", Who is also "Yahweh" as the Speaker. And we have "the Holy Spirit", Who is also "sent", thereby showing Three Persons, Two Who are here called YAHWEH!

You lost me here, what are you disagreeing with me about? I simply

Saved.By.Grace said:
You may disagree, but you are very wrong! In Isaiah 48, the Speaker is Yahweh, and in verse 16, He says: "Come here. Listen to this: From the beginning I have spoken nothing in private. From the time it took place, I was there. Now the Almighty LORD has sent Me and His Spirit." Notice, "The Lord (Yahweh), sent "Me", Who is also "Yahweh" as the Speaker. And we have "the Holy Spirit", Who is also "sent", thereby showing Three Persons, Two Who are here called YAHWEH!

So what are you trying to tell me? Are you trying to say I don't believe in the Trinity or what?

messager777 · Sep 28, 2017

Dartman said:
Yes, Jesus represented his God perfectly, in both words, AND works. Jesus explains that the WORDS he spoke, were NOT his own, they were his GOD'S words, his FATHER'S words;

.
JOHN.14:7-11 says that seeing Jesus is the same as having seen the Father. This is seeing Jesus in the Father and seeing the Father in Jesus Spirit'ually or seeing by the Spirit.
....... The Lord/God Jesus Christ will be returning to earth "soon". At that time, resurrected or raptured believers will be seeing Jesus again and spending a Millennium(= 1,000 years) with Him on a new earth, which will be the same as the believers having seen the Father and spending a Millennium with the Father.
.
.
JOHN.20: = 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

RaymondG · Sep 28, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
So, do you believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are Almighty God?

I believe the Bible teaches the way to salvation for those who believe. I save the debates about stories and doctrine to those who enjoy doing that. Im concern that you know God....and knowing him is made harder when you fill your mind with doctrines. We have to go to him as children.....Most prefer to go to him with PHds in bible study.....When we pray we tell Him what He said.... "Lord you said in your Word!......" never taking the time to listen for the still small voice...the Word of God....

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 28, 2017

RaymondG said:
I believe the Bible teaches the way to salvation for those who believe. I save the debates about stories and doctrine to those who enjoy doing that. Im concern that you know God....and knowing him is made harder when you fill your mind with doctrines. We have to go to him as children.....Most prefer to go to him with PHds in bible study.....When we pray we tell Him what He said.... "Lord you said in your Word!......" never taking the time to listen for the still small voice...the Word of God....

so you can't answer a simple, but very important question?

Phantasman · Sep 28, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
If, as you say, that Jesus is not Jehovah, then it can only mean that He is another "created being", even though "higher" than the rest of creation! In this case the Bible's own teachings about Jesus Christ are faulty, and we are being taught lies in the Holy Bible, which is the Word of Almighty God!

In the very first Book of the Holy Bible, we read of Two Persons Who are called "Yahweh" (Jehovah), as we have it in Genesis 19:24, "Then the LORD (Yahweh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD (Yahweh) out of heaven". Read in context, chapters 18-19, and you will see that One "Yahweh" was on earth with Abraham, and One was in heaven, to Whom the One on earth called upon! Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, 4:5-6, in connection with Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:1-3, Luke 1:16-18, 76, very clearly speaks of the coming of John the Baptist before "YAHWEH" Came, which was fulfilled in the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Which can only mean that Jesus Christ IS YAHWEH.

BINGO. The Father, who is perfect, did not create imperfection. It's beyond him.

Mark:
25 For when they shall rise again from the dead, neither men marry, nor wives are married, but are as the Angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they shall rise again, have ye not read in the book of Moses how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. Ye are therefore greatly deceived.

The Jews followed YHWH/Jehovah and died. It was an Angel in the bush, not God.

John:
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers have eaten Manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread, shall live forever.

Stephen was stoned to death for exposing the Jews and who they followed:

Acts 7:
51 aa]">[aa]Ye stiff-necked and of ab]">[ab]uncircumcised hearts and ears, ye have always resisted the holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you.

52 Which of the Prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them, which showed before of the coming of that Just, of whom ye are now the betrayers and murderers,

53 Which have received the law by the ac]">[ac]ordinance of Angels, and have not kept it.

35 This Moses whom they forsook, saying, Who made thee a prince and a judge? the same God sent for a prince, and a deliverer by the o]">[o]hand of the Angel which appeared to him in the bush.

Moses never heard the Father. Only the Holy Spirit speaks from the Father. When the son received the Holy Spirit (Chrism) he became Christ (Christ comes from the word Chrism). The OT men never had the Holy Spirit within them, it's influence came "upon" them.

It was given to man by the Father through his son who received it first, to teach of it before we could receive it.
John:
(This spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed in him, should receive: for the holy Ghost was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Fathers has never spoken to man. The Holy Spirit was given to man after the resurrection. Jesus is the truth by the Holy Spirit.

So where is Jehovah in all of this?

John:
37 v]">[v]I know that ye are Abraham’s seed, but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your Father.

Capital F means God.

42 Therefore Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, then would ye love me: for I proceeded forth, and came from God, neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

The Gentiles didn't have the problems believing that the Jews had. Orthodoxy is dragging the Jews god into the Gospel.

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 28, 2017

iwbswiaihl said:
You lost me here, what are you disagreeing with me about? I simply

So what are you trying to tell me? Are you trying to say I don't believe in the Trinity or what?

you are right, wrong person, wrong post! apologies!

RaymondG · Sep 28, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
so you can't answer a simple, but very important question?

I dont reason with my carnal mind anymore....as it cannot understand the things of God. The letter killeth but the spirit gives life. I go to God and ask for Him to reveal the truth.......As truth is not learned but known. And if I tell you what He said, you wouldnt believe me.

Do you find it strange that I dont wish to argue or call you right or wrong? My only stance here was, why cant we leave scripture alone.....it is powerful on it's own. I dont see a need to create a title for a group of passages and then lead people away from scriptures and to my title instead.

Phantasman · Sep 28, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
If, as you say, that Jesus is not Jehovah, then it can only mean that He is another "created being", even though "higher" than the rest of creation! In this case the Bible's own teachings about Jesus Christ are faulty, and we are being taught lies in the Holy Bible, which is the Word of Almighty God!

In the very first Book of the Holy Bible, we read of Two Persons Who are called "Yahweh" (Jehovah), as we have it in Genesis 19:24, "Then the LORD (Yahweh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD (Yahweh) out of heaven". Read in context, chapters 18-19, and you will see that One "Yahweh" was on earth with Abraham, and One was in heaven, to Whom the One on earth called upon! Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, 4:5-6, in connection with Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:1-3, Luke 1:16-18, 76, very clearly speaks of the coming of John the Baptist before "YAHWEH" Came, which was fulfilled in the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Which can only mean that Jesus Christ IS YAHWEH.

BY the way, Jehovah/YHWH does not appear in any Gospel message, canon or non, or Pauls 10 letters. You're seeing something that is not there.

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 28, 2017

Phantasman said:
BINGO. The Father, who is perfect, did not create imperfection. It's beyond him.

Mark:
25 For when they shall rise again from the dead, neither men marry, nor wives are married, but are as the Angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they shall rise again, have ye not read in the book of Moses how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. Ye are therefore greatly deceived.

The Jews followed YHWH/Jehovah and died. It was an Angel in the bush, not God.

John:
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers have eaten Manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread, shall live forever.

Stephen was stoned to death for exposing the Jews and who they followed:

Acts 7:
51 aa]">[aa]Ye stiff-necked and of ab]">[ab]uncircumcised hearts and ears, ye have always resisted the holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you.

52 Which of the Prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them, which showed before of the coming of that Just, of whom ye are now the betrayers and murderers,

53 Which have received the law by the ac]">[ac]ordinance of Angels, and have not kept it.

35 This Moses whom they forsook, saying, Who made thee a prince and a judge? the same God sent for a prince, and a deliverer by the o]">[o]hand of the Angel which appeared to him in the bush.

Moses never heard the Father. Only the Holy Spirit speaks from the Father. When the son received the Holy Spirit (Chrism) he became Christ (Christ comes from the word Chrism). The OT men never had the Holy Spirit within them, it's influence came "upon" them.

It was given to man by the Father through his son who received it first, to teach of it before we could receive it.
John:
(This spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed in him, should receive: for the holy Ghost was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Fathers has never spoken to man. The Holy Spirit was given to man after the resurrection. Jesus is the truth by the Holy Spirit.

So where is Jehovah in all of this?

John:
37 v]">[v]I know that ye are Abraham’s seed, but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your Father.

Capital F means God.

42 Therefore Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, then would ye love me: for I proceeded forth, and came from God, neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

The Gentiles didn't have the problems believing that the Jews had. Orthodoxy is dragging the Jews god into the Gospel.

Exodus 3:2, "And the Angel (Messenger) of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush", verse 4, "When the Lord (Yahweh) saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush". verse 6, "And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God."

very clear that the Angel of the Lord here, is NOT a created being, but Almighty God Himself, as in Jesus Christ, Who is called both "Yahweh" and "Elohim".

iwbswiaihl2 · Sep 28, 2017

There is no new revelations, only illuminations from the Holy Spirit concerning the written word, we already have the word of God, heaven and earth will pass away but My word shall never pass away. One cannot add to the word of God and there is no reason to do otherwise. It is finished!

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 28, 2017

RaymondG said:
I dont reason with my carnal mind anymore....as it cannot understand the things of God. The letter killeth but the spirit gives life. I go to God and ask for Him to reveal the truth.......As truth is not learned but known. And if I tell you what He said, you wouldnt believe me.

Do you find it strange that I dont wish to argue or call you right or wrong? My only stance here was, why cant we leave scripture alone.....it is powerful on it's own. I dont see a need to create a title for a group of passages and then lead people away from scriptures and to my title instead.

OK, I get it, you don't wish to share you beliefs about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

Neostarwcc · Sep 28, 2017

iwbswiaihl said:
There is no new revelations, we already have the word of God, heaven and earth will pass away but My word shall never pass away. One cannot add to the word of God and there is no reason to do otherwise. It is finished!

Amen.

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 28, 2017

Phantasman said:
BY the way, Jehovah/YHWH does not appear in any Gospel message, canon or non, or Pauls 10 letters. You're seeing something that is not there.

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 10:9, "We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents". The reference of Paul is from Numbers 21:6, which reads, "Then the Yahweh sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died". Jesus Christ is this Yahweh! This is very clear.

Phantasman · Sep 28, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
So...do you think that Jesus was just a human that was empowered by the Holy Spirit?

Jesus was truth (of the Father) that appeared in the likeness of sinful flesh.

Adstar · Sep 28, 2017

I would also Like to add some more wonderful scriptures from Jesus.

When Jesus was nearing the end of his time on earth He lamented Jerusalem how it had killed the prophets that where sent to it.. Take close note of what Jesus said about all the times he wanted to lovingly gather them as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings to protect them and give them warmth....

Matthew 23: KJV
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Now how many prophets where stoned to death during the life time of Jesus on earth? The answer for that is none.. But One was killed,, John the baptist was executed during the time Jesus was on earth.. But what is Jesus talking about the many times he wanted to gather the children of Jerusalem but them repeatedly not being willing???

Lets go back to Psalms and read a few verses::

Psalms 91: KJV
2 "I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. {3} Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. {4} He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler."

Psalms 57: KJV
1 "Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast."

And lastly a blessing from Ruth::

Ruth 2: KJV
12 "The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust."

iwbswiaihl2 · Sep 28, 2017

Phantasman said:
BY the way, Jehovah/YHWH does not appear in any Gospel message, canon or non, or Pauls 10 letters. You're seeing something that is not there.

Lord in the OT uses the word #3068 in the Hebrew language, but in the NT the word kuros, #2962 used for Lord and God. Same Lord Jehovah different language. amen

Ronald · Sep 28, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
I believe he was, and is the God Yahweh, and the God from Genesis and all of the other OT. Why? Several reasons. For one, scripture says so. John 1:1-3, John 1:18, John 5:37, John 6:46 states:

John 1:1-3,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:18,

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

John 5:37,

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,"

John 6:46,

"No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."

So we learn from these four verses that Jesus is God, who was always with God the Father, and he created everything we see along with the Father. We also learn that nobody has ever seen God except for Jesus. Even Jesus himself states that nobody has seen God the Father but him. But wait! Adam and Eve saw God! Isaiah saw God! Ezekiel saw God! Countless people of the OT saw God! So, either Jesus is lying or Jesus is stating that he is the mighty Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament that created the heavens and the Earth and all we see around us. The Jews knew what Jesus was saying when he stated these things along with when he said in John 8:58:

John 8:58,

"Before Abraham was born, I am!"

To which the Jews tried to stone him for because God called himself "I am" in Exodus 3:14.

Exodus 3:14

"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

So what do you think? Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament? Or was Jesus just plain a God along with the Father and God the Father is the God of the OT? Tell me what you think. I'm curious.

You are exactly correct. Jesus was making a reference to the time He spoke to Moses. "I AM" was an introduction, and could not possibly be conceived, no matter how much details could be given at the time. The details came over thousands of years and was fulfilled in Jesus. Because He is the great I AM who finished the introduction with details when He showed up.

I AM the Light
I AM the Bread of Life
I AM the Good Shepherd
I AM the WAY, the Truth and the Life
I AM the Door
I AM the Resurrection and the Life
Before Abraham was, I AM
I AM the Vine
I AM the Alpha and the Omega

Only God can forgive sins.
Only God can become sin and wash them away, it requires omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence since He has to be aware of billions of people's sins past , present and future.
All authority in heaven and on earth requires an Almighty God to contain it.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 28, 2017

RaymondG said:
You've come to the right place. You will learn how to defend your doctrine to the death here. You'll get told off, called unlearnt you will get back in the books and come back better for the next debate. Once you've had your fun doing that, you will have to forget everything you thing you know and go to the father as a child. Then you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. But take as much time as you want...God is patient.

If that is generally how people interact with others on here, my time in these forums will probably be short. I'd like to grow with other Christians, and learn from them, as they learn from me, and all of us learning from God.

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 28, 2017

iwbswiaihl said:
Lord in the OT uses the word #3068 in the Hebrew language, but in the NT the word kuros, #2962 used for Lord and God. Same Lord Jehovah different language. amen

Not quite so. In the Hebrew there are two different words used for "Lord", the first is "adon" and the second is "Yahweh". Both are used for Almighty God, but the former can be used for humans as well. In the Greek there are also two words, "kurios" and "despotes", again both used for Jesus, but also for humans.

Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

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