Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 28, 2017

Phantasman said:
That Jesus isn't Jehovah.

Jehovah said for the Jews to have a certain diet. Jesus said it wasn't that which went into the mouth that defiled a man, but that which came out of it. Flesh vs spirit. Did he change his mind?

Jehovah used the waters to cast fear into his children. The flood, parting of the seas, etc. When that fear was used towards his disciples, Jesus rebuked the seas and calmed them. And showed Peter that he could actually walk over them if he had the faith.

The prince of this world's (OT) miracles were that of it's physical features to use fear to make man succumb to him. Floods, seas, blood in water, killing children, famine, etc. Jesus miracles were that which showed it's spiritual powers that benefits man through the love the Father has for man. Feeding, healing, power over death, etc.

There are many things Jesus did and said that show that he wasn't the Jews god nor was his Father. You fight to accept a false teaching of error and ignorance (of the Father). No where are we (Christians) told to follow the practices of Judaism. The priests gave you the Bible. The first Canon did not include the Hebrew scriptures.

To see Jesus as the OT god is just.....................ignorance of the Father, and his soon.

My belief.

If, as you say, that Jesus is not Jehovah, then it can only mean that He is another "created being", even though "higher" than the rest of creation! In this case the Bible's own teachings about Jesus Christ are faulty, and we are being taught lies in the Holy Bible, which is the Word of Almighty God!

In the very first Book of the Holy Bible, we read of Two Persons Who are called "Yahweh" (Jehovah), as we have it in Genesis 19:24, "Then the LORD (Yahweh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD (Yahweh) out of heaven". Read in context, chapters 18-19, and you will see that One "Yahweh" was on earth with Abraham, and One was in heaven, to Whom the One on earth called upon! Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, 4:5-6, in connection with Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:1-3, Luke 1:16-18, 76, very clearly speaks of the coming of John the Baptist before "YAHWEH" Came, which was fulfilled in the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Which can only mean that Jesus Christ IS YAHWEH.

T.S.Bland · Sep 28, 2017

RaymondG said:
I dont see the word "trinity" in the bible at all.......nor do i see any of descriptions of it given by most people I.E. "The holy spirit is God" "the father is not the son" "The son is not the father"

What help does memorizing all these extra doctrines do for ones salvation? Why cant we just see it in the bible without naming it and creating a doctrine around it? Why isnt the Gospel alone enough?

Enough of what? Are you wanting me to defend my knowledge for your ignorance? I pity the believer that limits themselves to their own understanding.
The whole Bible is the Triune God revealing Himself to us, from the first word to the last.

redleghunter · Sep 28, 2017

Open Heart said:
There is absolutely no awareness in the OT that God is trine. On the contrary, the OT states that God is Echad, One.

Good morning.

Actually the above is a great topic to discuss in our General theology subforum IMO. I'm sure we would have various historic and orthodox comments.

Just a thought. Good to see you BTW.

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 28, 2017

iwbswiaihl said:
In post #146 you said this, But the moment you try to say that the OT teaches the trinity, that's when I disagree. Shalom.) this is what I was answering when I posted the above. I did show the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit from the OT, did I not? Isa 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Gen 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. I did not say they indicated plural Gods, for the Lord our God is One.

You may disagree, but you are very wrong! In Isaiah 48, the Speaker is Yahweh, and in verse 16, He says: "Come here. Listen to this: From the beginning I have spoken nothing in private. From the time it took place, I was there. Now the Almighty LORD has sent Me and His Spirit." Notice, "The Lord (Yahweh), sent "Me", Who is also "Yahweh" as the Speaker. And we have "the Holy Spirit", Who is also "sent", thereby showing Three Persons, Two Who are here called YAHWEH!

Baby Cottontail · Sep 28, 2017

Phantasman said:
The Holy Spirit.

So...do you think that Jesus was just a human that was empowered by the Holy Spirit?

RaymondG · Sep 28, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
Granted, the term "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible, but neither is the term "Millennialism",

I am not a hypocrite on these matters...I dont see the necessity in any outside naming conventions. It seems to create division and separation. Not to be apart of a christian sect, I have to learn all these term and agree to them. Believing on the Lord is no longer enough.

Saved.By.Grace said:
The Term "Trinity" is used to describe the "God" of the Holy Bible

You cant describe the indescribable. When we start trying we are in danger of creating the golden calf.

You have a lot of scripture to prove terms that are outside the scripture... Im asking why cant scripture prove themselves......why the need for the extra doctrines?

Neostarwcc · Sep 28, 2017

Dartman said:
The desperate attempt to distort John 8:58 into a "claim" that Jesus is Jehovah underscores the utter lack of ANYTHING remotely supporting trinity.
The Greek prepositional phrase ego emi doesn't compare to the Greek translation of Ex 3:14 in the LXX... where those Hebrew translators rendered it "O On".

It is BLATANTLY obvious the Jews were wrong in John 8, and it is stunningly significant that trinitarians are reliant on their ERROR for support!!

How is it blatantly obvious that the Jews were wrong? The evidences I presented in the OP are more than sufficient proof that the Jews were correct in their assumption that Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh. You're basically calling Jesus a liar by saying that he isn't the God of the OT because his claim was right there in black and white "Before Abraham was, I AM". You're also calling Jesus a liar by saying that everyone heard the Father's voice and has seen his form. Because, Jesus said that nobody has.

Dartman said:
Utterly impossible.
Jehovah/YHVH God authorizes us to use reality as a test of truth, and the convoluted, contradictory reasoning that both Jesus and his God are Jehovah is a perfect example of the impossibility of the trinity.

The Trinity is clearly proven in scripture. I may not understand the Trinity But, it is CLEARLY proven.

Dartman said:
No, The Father's foreknowledge of Jesus was glorious.
The Father alone is God,
John 17:3
And this is Eternal Life, that they might know THEE the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ whom THOU hast sent.

If the Father alone is God than why does John say in John 1:1-3 that Jesus is/was God and played a role along with the Father in the creation of the world? Are you claiming that John lied?

Baby Cottontail said:
Jesus is YHWH/Jehovah
The Father is YHWH/Jehovah
The Holy Spirit is YHWH/Jehovah

One God in three Persons.

Jesus is not the Father.
The Father is not Jesus.
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
Jesus is not the Father.

I actually didn't know that the Holy Spirit was Yahweh as well. That's very interesting.

Open Heart said:
There is absolutely no awareness in the OT that God is trine. On the contrary, the OT states that God is Echad, One.

Genesis 1:26

"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

The Trinity WAS in the OT as well.

iwbswiaihl said:
Just what is it that you don't understand about the Trinity, and of course no one fully understand the Godhead but there are those things that are told in the scripture, so as precise as possible what is puzzling you?

Well for one, how God can possibly be three persons and still be one God. You're right, it's proven in scripture But, I don't understand how one God can be three persons. For two, how exactly does the Trinity work?

Dartman said:
No, the ONLY sense in which Jesus existed before his birth, is as God's words. God's prophecies, God's plan.

Now you're claiming that Jesus didn't exist before his birth? There are numerous statements both by Jesus and by other parts of the Bible that state that Jesus DID exist as God BEFORE he was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born into the world. I'm not reposting the evidences again.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 28, 2017

Dartman said:
You are very welcome.

Very true! And at times the trinitarians have been badly mistreated. Being persecuted is certainly NOT proof that we have the truth. But, being in the majority is almost always a sign we are wrong.
Heavens no! I am not angry at all. Disappointed, yes.

No, there are two beings. Jehovah/YHVH God who told Moses in
Ex 3:13-14 And Moses said to God, Behold, I shall go forth to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of our fathers has sent me to you; and they will ask me, What is his name? What shall I say to them? 14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
Jesus very clearly taught that he and his Father count as two beings;
John 8:16-18 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Being in the majority is not necessarily a sign that someone is wrong. Neither is being in the minority necessarily a sign of being right. Truth isn't dependent on being in a group. You are right that being persecuted is NOT proof of being right or wrong.

I'm glad you aren't angry then.

It seems to me that we may disagree on the difference between Person and Being. It seems that you consider the terms to be synonymous, and I don't. I think this may be part of why we have trouble communicating about this.

RaymondG · Sep 28, 2017

T.S.Bland said:
Enough of what? Are you wanting me to defend my knowledge for your ignorance? I pity the believer that limits themselves to their own understanding.
The whole Bible is the Triune God revealing Himself to us, from the first word to the last.

Continue in your pity for others who are not like you and feel good in the knowledge that you have. I find no fault in it. Was good talking to you.

Dartman · Sep 28, 2017

Open Heart said:
You are misquoting. It doesn't saying that Gods words (plural) are in the beginning with God and are God. It says something different. It says that LOGOS, which means WORD, not words, was God.

You misunderstand LOGOS, ESPECIALLY as John uses it. The most natural definition of LOGOS is words, an uttered thought, even the reasoning/motive behind those words. The consistent usage of LOGOS in John's writing is "words", or "sayings".... about FOURTY times in the gospel of John alone!
Here is a CLASSIC example;
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (LOGOS): and the word (LOGOS) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Jesus spoke LOGOS, words, which were NOT his own words (LOGOS), but were GIVEN TO HIM, were COMMANDED to him by his God!

Open Heart said:
John stole this term from the Stoics, who used LOGOS to refer to the Divine animinating principle behind the universe. John then augments the Stoic's understanding by saying that LOGOS is with God and IS God.

No. The Stoics perverted a Greek word that already existed. John's usage had NOTHING to do with the Stoic's perverted use.
It wasn't until POORLY CONVERTED students of Greek philosophy began twisting Scripture to match THEIR pagan notions, that the perverted Stoic definition of LOGOS began corrupting the teachings of the Church, exactly like Paul foretold in Acts 20:28-31 and 2 Thes 2:1-13.

Open Heart said:
As God, Logos would have always existed.

God's words HAVE always existed, and did come true as a flesh and blood baby descendant of Abraham and David, exactly as God's words foretold. And, exactly like the sermons found in the New Testament explain!
You see, Paul foresaw the "falling away" which was going to creep into the Church over the next 3 centuries, and then would NOT be destroyed until JESUS returns. SINCE Paul KNEW this was coming, he made sure to WARN the Church about it, AND to explain how to PREVENT being deceived by it;

2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might bear this well.

The warning is clear! CLING to the "Jesus" actually PREACHED! The "Jesus" we can show the apostles EXPLAINING to new believers, to the Gentiles, to ANY audience in the Scriptures!
THAT "Jesus" is NEVER ....... EVER ...... the trinitarian Jesus!

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 28, 2017

RaymondG said:
I am not a hypocrite on these matters...I dont see the necessity in any outside naming conventions. It seems to create division and separation. Not to be apart of a christian sect, I have to learn all these term and agree to them. Believing on the Lord is no longer enough.

You cant describe the indescribable. When we start trying we are in danger of creating the golden calf.

You have a lot of scripture to prove terms that are outside the scripture... Im asking why cant scripture prove themselves......why the need for the extra doctrines?

maybe you can't listen to what has been shown from the Bible as Truth!

RaymondG · Sep 28, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
maybe you can't listen to what has been shown from the Bible as Truth!

I can listen to it. And I find no fault in anything you believe. I personally dont feel the need to created doctrines from the scriptures I read and tell others to use my doctrine to refer to certain passages of scripture. I find it less dividing to just refer to scriptures, instead of doctrines used to describe scripture.

Everyone can agree that Jesus said, I and my Father are one. That is good enough for me. But people created the terms trinity and triune and prefer that people use and believe in these instead.....causing a separation between those who believe the extra words and those who dont.

look at yourself....you are getting defensive and not even realizing that I never said you were wrong. The enemy causes the confusion and he can work without you even noticing it.

redleghunter · Sep 28, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
However, while the Father is Jehovah, He is NOT the only Person who is Jehovah.
Jesus is Jehovah.
The Holy Spirit is Jehovah as well.
The whole triune God is Jehovah

Good point.

I will point out YHWH (Jehovah) is The Name of God. The One God is YHWH.

Trinitarian Messianics I know explain it thus: Yeshua HaMashiach is YHWH manifest in the flesh. For we Westerners that means Jesus Christ is truly God and truly Man.

I observe quite often Trinity debates go nowhere because the Nature of Jesus Christ is 'glanced over.' Meaning we usually go full bore into debating One God in Three Divine Persons without first addressing Christology----The Nature of Jesus Christ.

You can see it here on this thread. We have posters denying the Deity of Jesus saying He is just a man, a created being. You will get nowhere in a Trinity debate with those who deny the eternal Deity of the Son of God Jesus Christ.

Dartman · Sep 28, 2017

messager777 said:
.
ISAIAH.9: = For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Yes, one of Christ's names would be "Pele-Yoweets-Eel-Gibowr-Abiy-Ad-Sar-Shaalowm" .... much like the previous chapter, where another child was called, Maher-shalal-hash-baz.
"PeleYoweetsEelGibowrAbiyAdSarShaalowm" means; the wonderful counselor of the Mighty God (who is the Everlasting Father), the prince of peace.

messager777 said:
JOHN.14: = The Father Revealed
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Yes, Jesus represented his God perfectly, in both words, AND works. Jesus explains that the WORDS he spoke, were NOT his own, they were his GOD'S words, his FATHER'S words;

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (LOGOS): and the word (LOGOS) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Neostarwcc · Sep 28, 2017

redleghunter said:
Good point.

I will point out YHWH (Jehovah) is The Name of God. The One God is YHWH.

Trinitarian Messianics I know explain it thus: Yeshua HaMashiach is YHWH manifest in the flesh. For we Westerners that means Jesus Christ is truly God and truly Man.

I observe quite often Trinity debates go nowhere because the Nature of Jesus Christ is 'glanced over.' Meaning we usually go full bore into debating One God in Three Divine Persons without first addressing Christology----The Nature of Jesus Christ.

You can see it here on this thread. We have posters denying the Deity of Jesus saying He is just a man, a created being. You will get nowhere in a Trinity debate with those who deny the eternal Deity of the Son of God Jesus Christ.

Jesus proved time and time again that he was God by all of the miracles that he did and it is clear from scripture that Jesus is in fact, fully God. So those posters who claim that Jesus was just a man are in fact, in error.

Dartman · Sep 28, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Being in the majority is not necessarily a sign that someone is wrong. Neither is being in the minority necessarily a sign of being right. Truth isn't dependent on being in a group. You are right that being persecuted is NOT proof of being right or wrong.

I'm glad you aren't angry then.

It seems to me that we may disagree on the difference between Person and Being. It seems that you consider the terms to be synonymous, and I don't. I think this may be part of why we have trouble communicating about this.

I would agree we have different understandings regarding SEVERAL concepts involved in this discussion. It is by no means limited to "Person" and "Being", but those might be core issues.
Please show Scripture that defines your understanding of the terms.
I have already shown Scripture establishing Jehovah/YHVH God as "The Being".

Dartman · Sep 28, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
Jesus proved time and time again that he was God by all of the miracles that he did and it is clear from scripture that Jesus is in fact, fully God. So those posters who claim that Jesus was just a man are in fact, in error.

This "logic" is badly flawed.
MANY of God's servants performed miracles.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 20:17 ... go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Neostarwcc · Sep 28, 2017

Dartman said:
This "logic" is badly flawed.
MANY of God's servants performed miracles.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 20:17 ... go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Yes, you are correct. God's servants have performed many wonderful miracles. But, no man has ever raised another person from the dead. Only God can raise a man from the dead. Well if you don't count Criss Angel but that was an illusion and he wasn't a servant of God he was just an illusionist. I don't believe the man that he raised was even dead.

Adstar · Sep 28, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
I believe he was, and is the God Yahweh, and the God from Genesis and all of the other OT. Why? Several reasons. For one, scripture says so. John 1:1-3, John 1:18, John 5:37, John 6:46 states:

John 1:1-3,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:18,

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

John 5:37,

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,"

John 6:46,

"No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."

So we learn from these four verses that Jesus is God, who was always with God the Father, and he created everything we see along with the Father. We also learn that nobody has ever seen God except for Jesus. Even Jesus himself states that nobody has seen God the Father but him. But wait! Adam and Eve saw God! Isaiah saw God! Ezekiel saw God! Countless people of the OT saw God! So, either Jesus is lying or Jesus is stating that he is the mighty Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament that created the heavens and the Earth and all we see around us. The Jews knew what Jesus was saying when he stated these things along with when he said in John 8:58:

John 8:58,

"Before Abraham was born, I am!"

To which the Jews tried to stone him for because God called himself "I am" in Exodus 3:14.

Exodus 3:14

"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

So what do you think? Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament? Or was Jesus just plain a God along with the Father and God the Father is the God of the OT? Tell me what you think. I'm curious.

And you can add to that the question.. Who lead the Hebrews through the desert in the pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night during the exodus during those many years they wandered through the wilderness ??? Let scriptures tell us..

1 Corinthians 10: KJV
1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; {2} And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; {3} And did all eat the same spiritual meat; {4} And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

And you can also add to that the question.. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Now if you are a Bible believing Christian you must believe that God rasied jesus from the dead.. It is part of the core doctrines we must believe.. Right ??

Romans 10: KJV
8 "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; {9} That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

So all Christians must believe that God raised Jesus from the dead.. If they want to be saved that is..

Now read what Jesus said,,

John 2: KJV
18 "¶ Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? {19} Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. {20} Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? {21} But he spake of the temple of his body. {22} When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said."

Now Jesus was talking about the Temple of His own Body.. And who did Jesus say was going to Raise Him from the Dead??? """ I will raise it up. """ So God raised Jesus from the dead and Jesus raised Jesus from the dead , Both are true,, because Jesus is God

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 28, 2017

RaymondG said:
I can listen to it. And I find no fault in anything you believe. I personally dont feel the need to created doctrines from the scriptures I read and tell others to use my doctrine to refer to certain passages of scripture. I find it less dividing to just refer to scriptures, instead of doctrines used to describe scripture.

Everyone can agree that Jesus said, I and my Father are one. That is good enough for me. But people created the terms trinity and triune and prefer that people use and believe in these instead.....causing a separation between those who believe the extra words and those who dont.

look at yourself....you are getting defensive and not even realizing that I never said you were wrong. The enemy causes the confusion and he can work without you even noticing it.

So, do you believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are Almighty God?

Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

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